ATV and K15 missile - News & Discussion

Locked
Gerard
Forum Moderator
Posts: 8012
Joined: 15 Nov 1999 12:31

Post by Gerard »

If this is true - then much of what we are debating is right behind the curve of what DRDO seems to be designing.
See the artist's impression photo... 12 ballistic missiles stored in 4 launch containers...

The secret undersea weapon

Arun_S has already pointed out that in this photo
http://www.drdo.org/pub/techfocus/aug04/pontoon2.jpg
the tube shown occupies one third of a larger tube
Last edited by Gerard on 27 Feb 2008 02:14, edited 1 time in total.
JCage
BRFite
Posts: 1562
Joined: 09 Oct 2000 11:31

Post by JCage »

ramana wrote:The TOI article has many sneering attempts(SLIME) in it. First of all SU-30s and Mirages dont need to be jury rigged. That implies some sort of a make do. Those a/c are used for such roles in their country of orgin. And there is no gaping hole for the kind of threat that India faces from TSP and even PRC.

I can take a guess who the writer is based on the jury rigged remark.
However TOI is first article to talk about a problem with the K 15 test.
Who else but Rajat Pandit! He was separated at birth from his siblings Vishal Thapar and Shiv Aroor! At the Kumbh mela - and it was all DRDOs fault!
ramana
Forum Moderator
Posts: 59810
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30

Post by ramana »

You got it.

But seriously this K-15 thing is great news. Its a common missile and thats what folks are working to.

I hadnt read Sandeep U's IT article earlier. It clears up a lot of cobwebs. The K-15 is an interim solution but according to TSS it can lead to some common missile vehicles. The AIIISL is also in the works. The boat is less than Red October but same as George Washington. He doesn't say the latter bit but I am saying it.

I think the DDM is beating the Russian horse when it should be the uncle's horse. IN is inspired by USN and not anything else.

Someone should contact him and find out whats his beef. Maybe he got rejected at SSB or something.
Gerard
Forum Moderator
Posts: 8012
Joined: 15 Nov 1999 12:31

Post by Gerard »

Undersea nuke warhead tested :roll:
[quote]DRDO sources said the missile was capable of ranges between 500km and 700km. They refused to say whether the test missile had been assigned a definite target or whether it had been successful in its mission.

“The data have yet to be analysed. It is a very complex experiment. We can say that the test-firing was successful. The missile was tracked by sensors through its route,â€
ranganathan
BRFite
Posts: 277
Joined: 06 Feb 2008 23:14

Post by ranganathan »

6.5 m and weighs 7 tonnes?? Whats the Dia? If reports are believed then dia should be 66-70cm which is very close to the longer brahmos that weihs 3 tonnes. So what gives? I have trouble believing this is BM. 6.5m is way too small, even smaller than prithvi.
ramana
Forum Moderator
Posts: 59810
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30

Post by ramana »

Gerard That means what it says there were some flight anamolies and they are trying to figure it out. The launch was successful. AIII had also initial reprots of success and then there were followw-on reports of the problem. However DRDO is quite transparent about the program and clarifies the problems and the fixes as was done on AIII.

Time for curry.
Ananth
BRFite
Posts: 346
Joined: 16 Mar 2002 12:31

Post by Ananth »

[quote="ramana"]
T.S. Subramanian

[..]

“It is through. There was no problem,â€
Gerard
Forum Moderator
Posts: 8012
Joined: 15 Nov 1999 12:31

Post by Gerard »

ranganathan wrote: I have trouble believing this is BM.
From the Hindu report
Then in a spectacular display of firepower, it cleaved out of the waters of the Bay of Bengal and tore into the atmosphere as the air-booster erupted into life. It impacted the sea over 700 km away.
Note the trajectory of the missile
Gerard
Forum Moderator
Posts: 8012
Joined: 15 Nov 1999 12:31

Post by Gerard »

interesting 2001 report
In a workshop at Hazira, desi underwater missile launcher gets ready for trial
P78 is not just another engineering project. It is India’s underwater test missile launcher almost entirely indigenously designed and fabricated. It simulates the necessary conditions to launch a cruise or a ballistic missile from a nuclear-powered submarine
The missile for which the launcher is being readied is the mysterious Sagarika, first thought to be a cruise missile but now, again according to sources, virtually confirmed to be a ballistic missile.
‘Even today, no one is about to admit to the project. However, once the underwater missile test takes place in September, it will be there for the whole world to see,’’ the source said.
Sagarika is already ready and waiting for tests or in a very advanced state of completion. That is why the frenetic activity to have the P78 underwater missile launcher delivered to the Navy before April 2001 makes sense.
ramana
Forum Moderator
Posts: 59810
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30

Post by ramana »

Gerard you could also have pointed o teh old thread which has drawings and artist rendrings. I think he wants to believe its a CM. ANd he doesnt say why.

Anyway most likely there was a separation issue. We will know in a few days.
Arun_S
BRF Oldie
Posts: 2800
Joined: 14 Jun 2000 11:31
Location: KhyberDurra

Post by Arun_S »

Hummm ..... 7 tonne weight is way higher than my estimate of about 3.5 tonne. Squeezing this 7 tonne into 7 m long missile with 0.7m dia is an engineering feat.

The 7 tonne mass means almost 6 tonne mass for the 2 rocket stages. That means a much heavier and longer reach of the punch.
putnanja
BRF Oldie
Posts: 4668
Joined: 26 Mar 2002 12:31
Location: searching for the next al-qaida #3

Post by putnanja »

Arun, some reports say that the diameter is 1m. Would that change anything?
Arun_S
BRF Oldie
Posts: 2800
Joined: 14 Jun 2000 11:31
Location: KhyberDurra

Post by Arun_S »

RaviBG: Even 1 m dia and packing in 1000Kg/meter length is a big achievment, considering that RV(payload)section will be at least 1.5 to 1.75 meter the motors get only 5 meter of which 1 meter is taken by each stages' rocket nozzle. You see that the density squeeze in the chmaber goes up big time.

Now I do not belive the Sagarika motor case is 1 m, but in reality it is more likely to be 0.75m or 0.8m. The effect on fuel density in the rocket chamber is even more.

OTOH when French developed their sub-lunched ICBM M51, the biggest engineering feat was they increased solid fuel in the rocket motor by 50% while maintaining the same volume envelop of submarime missile tube that housed older M41 missile. This increased the range 50% or increased the throw weight by 50% for same old range.


So the 7 tonne mass of Sagarika will gladden the heart of people like me and will turn green with envy Porkistan and Slimy dragon.

Oh well we know how much more green can Islamic Pakistan become?? Talk of darker than pitchblack.
-------------------------------
Added later: For comparison SLV-3 and Agni-2 missile booster pack 1 tonne/meter motor length (and their steel case motor is much thicker than the maraging case of Sagairka).
Last edited by Arun_S on 27 Feb 2008 04:45, edited 1 time in total.
Vick
BRFite
Posts: 753
Joined: 14 Oct 1999 11:31

Post by Vick »

ramana wrote:Next put the PAD kill vehicle on the front end and have ASAT capability.
Prophetic words...

There is a momentum in DRDO projects like never before and not just in the missile progs.

Added after seeing Arun's post: With the new denser fuel, the AIII-SL will most likely exceed current range-payload estimates. 6,000 - 8,000km?
A Sharma
BRFite
Posts: 1207
Joined: 20 May 2003 11:31

Post by A Sharma »

Image
Gerard
Forum Moderator
Posts: 8012
Joined: 15 Nov 1999 12:31

Post by Gerard »

Check out the caption in the included photo....

Final test of K-15 ballistic missile on Tuesday
The slender two-stage K-15 has a length of around 11 metres-larger than the 8.5 metre long Prithvi short-range ballistic missile but smaller than the 15-metre-long Agni-1 ballistic missile.

The missile has two stages fitted into its half-a-metre wide body. An underwater booster propels it clear of the submarine and takes the missile to a height of 5 km above the sea surface. On reaching this altitude, a second stage solid motor kicks in to propel the missile to a distance of over 700 km.
This technology will come in handy when the DRDO eventually fields the submarine-launched variants of the 3500-km Agni-III missile in the next five years.
sunilUpa
BRFite
Posts: 1795
Joined: 25 Sep 2006 04:16

Post by sunilUpa »

Gerard wrote:Check out the caption in the included photo....
Hey thats from Keltec site and Arun Ji had identified it as K-15 :)
Gerard
Forum Moderator
Posts: 8012
Joined: 15 Nov 1999 12:31

Post by Gerard »

ramana wrote: I think he wants to believe its a CM. ANd he doesnt say why.
Takleef?
ranganathan
BRFite
Posts: 277
Joined: 06 Feb 2008 23:14

Post by ranganathan »

Because 6.5 m seems too piddly to be a BM, especially one with a dia of the order of 70 cm. On the other hand if they did manage it good for them Infact 6.5 m was the supposed length of rirbhay cruise missile with 1000 km range.
sunilUpa
BRFite
Posts: 1795
Joined: 25 Sep 2006 04:16

Post by sunilUpa »

ranganathan wrote:Because 6.5 m seems too piddly to be a BM, especially one with a dia of the order of 70 cm. On the other hand if they did manage it good for them Infact 6.5 m was the supposed length of rirbhay cruise missile with 1000 km range.
Sandeep Unninathan puts the length at 11 m. So till DRDO puts out official release we will never know for sure.
Yugandhar
BRFite -Trainee
Posts: 69
Joined: 28 Jun 1999 11:31
Location: Bendakaalooru

Post by Yugandhar »

one more puzzling thing is reports of " air booster starting after it reaches 5 km altitude". What exactly propels it inside water and upto 5km???
:-?
ramana
Forum Moderator
Posts: 59810
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30

Post by ramana »

Sigh. I guess you didn't read the old thread. There is a gas generator that propels it out of the launcher tube. The air booster which has no thrust vector capability, but has fins if you look at the old thread to give static stability, ignites and takes it to 5km altitude. Anything more I will have to give a lesson in rocket flight which can be picked up from a good book on aerodynamics. The S/S has no fins as it has thrust vector control.

The Sandeep U article in IT is quite revealing for long time forum members. Ten years is about right for a development program. it starts with new booster development and launch systems. And only six flights to proof the system. Off course there must have been ground tests of the motors. Ten years means it was 1998 when the go ahead was given. It could be Gujral govt or NDA. If its 11m then the makes sense why the ATV reactor has to operate at full power most of the time. The top sail to accommodate the total length is draggy. When bala made the comment that why not rig two of the reactors to the ATV and get a Indian nuke a/c that got me thinking about the power reqmts.

If old timers recall there was a joker called Robert Einhorn who was some ASS( I don't mean to be pejorative but it stands for Asst Secy of State) in the Clinton Admin., who was justifying to the US congress that TSP was quite right in acquiring the Gauri (Gaur is buffalo in India) as India was developing the Sagarika. And this was before the tests in May 1998. So most probably this was a ppt pitch during Gujral days.

Kahan bhains, kahan Ocean's daughter?

So the Ocean's Daughter has made her bow.

Can some one send Sandeep U some mithai from Bengal Sweet/Nathus store in ND and will foot the bill?

Sandeep's article
Final test of K-15 ballistic missile on Tuesday
Sandeep Unnithan
New Delhi, February 25, 2008


The Defence Research and Development Organisation is to conduct the final test launch of the K-15, India's first submarine-launched ballistic missile (SLBM) from off the coast of Visakhapatnam on Tuesday. The missile can carry a one-tonne nuclear weapon to a distance of 700 km.

On Tuesday, the calm sea around Vizag will be breached by the roar of a missile rising from under the sea, geyser-like. Climbing to a height of five kilometers, the missile will ignite a solid booster which will arc it to a distance of over 700 km over the Bay of Bengal.

With this full system test, DRDO officials say the missile will be handed over to the navy for integration on its nuclear submarine, the Advanced Technology Vessel (ATV). "The K-15's development is complete, we are ready to integrate it with the mother ship," DRDO Chief Controller Dr Prahlada told the media last week, in the first official and detailed confirmation of the enigmatic missile.

The missile completes India's triad of land, air and sea launched nuclear weapons. It also gets India an entry into the elite club of-US, UK, France, Russia and China-capable of launching a ballistic missile from a submarine.

The missile will be launched from a specially constructed submersible pontoon which sinks to a depth of 50 metres on the seabed-the intended launch depth from the submarine-and fires the missile from underwater. This period was chosen for the launch as the seas around Vizag are calm like a mirror.

The slender two-stage K-15 has a length of around 11 metres-larger than the 8.5 metre long Prithvi short-range ballistic missile but smaller than the 15-metre-long Agni-1 ballistic missile.


The missile has two stages fitted into its half-a-metre wide body. :?: An underwater booster propels it clear of the submarine and takes the missile to a height of 5 km above the sea surface. On reaching this altitude, a second stage solid motor kicks in to propel the missile to a distance of over 700 km.

Work on the missile started around a decade ago under a highly classified programme earlier called Sagarika (Oceanic). Development ran parallel to the Indian navy's 25 year programme to build its own nuclear-propelled submarine, the ATV. In the last few years, the missile remained behind a veil of obsessive secrecy with the government refusing to confirm or deny its existence. Variously dubbed 'the naval missile' and the 'navalised Prithvi', it was successfully tested to incremental ranges six times. The last successful test to its full range was in April last year.

With work on the ATV nearly complete-a nuclear reactor was integrated into its hull in December-and the vessel due for sea trials next year, the next key milestone will be integrating the missile into the submarine. The ATV carries 12 K-15 missiles in four launch canisters. A fleet of three nuclear submarines are planned for induction by 2012.

According to DRDO officials, the key challenge here was to master the difficult science of launching a missile from under the sea. This technology will come in handy when the DRDO eventually fields the submarine-launched variants of the 3500-km Agni-III missile in the next five years.
Last edited by ramana on 27 Feb 2008 07:34, edited 1 time in total.
Arun_S
BRF Oldie
Posts: 2800
Joined: 14 Jun 2000 11:31
Location: KhyberDurra

Post by Arun_S »

sunilUpa wrote:
ranganathan wrote:Because 6.5 m seems too piddly to be a BM, especially one with a dia of the order of 70 cm. On the other hand if they did manage it good for them Infact 6.5 m was the supposed length of rirbhay cruise missile with 1000 km range.
Sandeep Unninathan puts the length at 11 m. So till DRDO puts out official release we will never know for sure.
I think the same.
A 2 stage 0.7m (or for that sake a 1m) dia missile is only viable at ~10meter not at 7m.
Muppalla
BRF Oldie
Posts: 7113
Joined: 12 Jun 1999 11:31

Post by Muppalla »

Ankit Desai wrote:I don't know wether we discussed this or didn't but why is it named " K-15 " why doesn't M or A or some Vedic name like other missiles like Agni Prithvi ?! and why digit 15 ?!?!

Thanks for answer in advance :)

Ankit
Here is my guess. The missile might have a thing like an i-touch and icons on the touch pad are 0.75K, 1K, 5K, 10K and 15K. For safetly purposes 5K, 10K and 15K are disabled. The test launch used 0.75K and hence it went only 750km. The maximum limit for this missile is (would be) 15,000 km and hence named as K-15. :)
vikas_pandey
BRFite -Trainee
Posts: 14
Joined: 02 Sep 2005 15:44
Contact:

Post by vikas_pandey »

TOI says that it has been partial success.
can someone confirm it?
ramana
Forum Moderator
Posts: 59810
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30

Post by ramana »

One wouldn't know till a few days time. What is successful is that the launcher worked. The rest is a flight problem. And DRDO is past masters at fixing flight problems.
arun
BRF Oldie
Posts: 10248
Joined: 28 Nov 2002 12:31

Post by arun »

SOP is that the MOD puts out an official press release via PIB.

I have seen no such release on PIB.

Has anyone :?:
Baljeet
BRFite
Posts: 410
Joined: 29 May 2007 04:16

Post by Baljeet »

k15 is launched at 50m depth, 5atm pressure is humungous, missile launches from that depth on move, reaches 5km altitude.... I am no scientist but it seems like a amazing feat of engineering in aerodynamics, hydrodynamics, metallurgy, propulsion, etc. I don't think anyone really cares about what TOI have to say. I am surprised by statement of Robert Gates, he must have been briefed earlier about the impending test and probability of success. I vividly recall Ted Coppell on ABC nightline program after POK II tests, he said,"it is a matter of time, when India will be able to launch Nukes from submarine platform and complete the triad of her nuclear forces"
Yugandhar
BRFite -Trainee
Posts: 69
Joined: 28 Jun 1999 11:31
Location: Bendakaalooru

Post by Yugandhar »

Ramana wrote
Sigh. I guess you didn't read the old thread. There is a gas generator that propels it out of the launcher tube. The air booster which has no thrust vector capability, but has fins if you look at the old thread to give static stability, ignites and takes it to 5km altitude. Anything more I will have to give a lesson in rocket flight which can be picked up from a good book on aerodynamics. The S/S has no fins as it has thrust vector control.
Ramana, Iwas wondering if the gas generator can actually push a missile up to 5km. I have seen the trident launch, Iguesss the solid fuel booster kicks in just a few meters above the sea level. So I assumed that the gas booster pushe the missile up theorugh the canister/pontoon/sub up to the surface and then the missile motor kicks in. The way the report goes is that some system takes the missile through the water upto aheight of 5km and then the solid fuel motor starts...

so what is an Air booster?? sorry if its a stoopid question.
You could go ahead and give me lesson in aerodynamics...if only it would get into a biologist`s head :D
ramana
Forum Moderator
Posts: 59810
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30

Post by ramana »

Sorry. The gas from the gas generator pushes it from the tube to the sea surface. Then the air booster ignites and takes it to 5km. then the S/S ignites and takes it further.

they are calling it an air booster instead of a first stage as it does not have any active flight control elements. it has only fins to provide static stability like feathers on an arrow. For a body to be stable the center of pressure has to be aft(behind) the center of gravity. And the latter keeps changing due to the fuel getting burnt. So it needs some flight control system to keep it stable. On this vehicle the flight control is provided by the S/S motor. The "air booster" is a dumb stage. provides only static stability for about 5 km ie 5000m or 15000 feet. The air density is lower at that altitude to enable stage separation and s/s flight.

Indians have a way of providing unique solutions to problems. I haven't seen this air booster gizmo. But is being done right here as the range is not much.
ramana
Forum Moderator
Posts: 59810
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30

Post by ramana »

BTW, Boss there are the greats in aerodynamics at your place. Just check around.
Yugandhar
BRFite -Trainee
Posts: 69
Joined: 28 Jun 1999 11:31
Location: Bendakaalooru

Post by Yugandhar »

Ramana
Thank you for your reply and patience.
If the place you are refering to is IISc. Then that was in the past.
rakall
BRFite
Posts: 798
Joined: 10 May 2005 10:26

Post by rakall »

Have watched the CNN-IBN news last nite and they repeatedly showed clips/animations of torpedos or cruise missiles to go with this piece of news.

To many highschool science students and thousands of young Indians this just puts wrong images in thier minds regarding the principle of ballisitc missiles. It just misleads their ideas/imagination of a ballistic missile.. imagine so many young students thinking that a ballisitic missiles travels through the water or skims the water level in a horiontal orientation..

If you have the means to contact the newschannel -- please send in comments/suggestions to the news channel pointing this & requesting them to correct it..
Singha
BRF Oldie
Posts: 66601
Joined: 13 Aug 2004 19:42
Location: the grasshopper lies heavy

Post by Singha »

arent the first stages in SM2 SAM , Aster30, and VL-Klub / VL-SA-N-7 of a similar nature ? ..i.e just make it rise upto a particular height before the smarter 2nd stage which is the real missile takes over ?
ramana
Forum Moderator
Posts: 59810
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30

Post by ramana »

GD The reqmts for a BM are quite different than those for SAMs. I haven't seen a BM with such a booster stage. The Tomahawk has such a booster to get it out of the water and then the turbofan takes over.
csharma
BRFite
Posts: 694
Joined: 12 Jul 1999 11:31

Post by csharma »

Found this while surfing. Look for comments by Anonymous.
Experts like Ramana and Arun_S can comment. It mentions a range of 1800 km for K-15 with a 500 kg warhead. Also mentions that for Agni III, with 500 kg warhead, the range is inter continental range.

http://spyingbadthings.blogspot.com/200 ... -slbm.html

Anonymous said...

The actual warhead is unlikely to be 1 ton. With a 500kg warhead, the range of the Sagarika will be 1800 km.

The Agni maneuvering RV airframe weighs 250 kg and carries a 250 kg warhead (500 kg total). The Agni-3's range is specified for a payload of 1500 kg suggesting 3 RVs. With a single RV, it has intercontinental range.

India finds it convenient to understate the range of its missiles though. Having weaponry that can reach Europe causes diplomatic friction.

Regarding yield, the 250 kg warhead is thought to be 200-300kT. The warheads developed for the Prithvi are smaller (20kT) and lighter (<200kg).

Regarding Gates visit to India...

http://www.weeklystandard.com/Content/P ... h.asp?pg=1

Enter the United States. According to numerous sources inside India, when U.S. Defense Secretary Robert Gates visits New Delhi late in February (provided his Tuesday Potomac Primary Day broken shoulder does not alter his itinerary) he will be carrying a signed letter from U.S. President George W. Bush offering a better deal for India than the one they have been struggling to get out of Moscow for four years now. The Indian Navy will reportedly be offered the soon-to-be decommissioned USS Kitty Hawk (CV 63) aircraft carrier for free--provided the Indian Navy will agree to purchase 65 of the newest model Boeing F/A-18E/F Super Hornets to be operated off of it.
ramana
Forum Moderator
Posts: 59810
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30

Post by ramana »

The Aussies are more alarmed about India than anyone else. A lot of angst from their scholars like Sandy Gordon et al.

he doesn't say how he comes with his conclusions. Lets see what Arun says.
Rahul Shukla
BRFite
Posts: 565
Joined: 20 Feb 2007 23:27
Location: On a roller-coaster.

Post by Rahul Shukla »

Gawd this rocketry stuff is addictive... :shock:

Anyhow, I am still in the process of summarizing the rest of the gyan I can extract from the LM report I was reading earlier. But in the meantime, here is some more stuff that'll help ignorant kafirs (like myself) be a little bit more informed...

- Aluminium is extensively used as part of the castable solid rocket motor propellent, especially submarine launched (solid fuel) ballistic missiles. Very likely being used with Sagarika propellent also. Here's why: Clicky

- Sagarika exhaust nozzle is bell-shaped. Here is some basic info on different kinds of rocket motor nozzles and their characteristics: Clicky
uddu
BRF Oldie
Posts: 2092
Joined: 15 Aug 2004 17:09

Post by uddu »

Can anybody calculate the length of the missile transporter using software.

http://www.drdo.org/pub/techfocus/aug04/missile13.htm

The length of the truck is said to be 3.24m

http://4x4-vehicles-ltd.com/4x4_vehicles_ltd.htm

Also take note not to calculate the whole height of the transporter. Image need to be magnified to check it.
geeth
BRFite
Posts: 1196
Joined: 22 Aug 1999 11:31
Location: India

Post by geeth »

Guys,

Analysing different data available, I am of the opinion that this K-15 is nothing but Agni-1. I had predicted at the time of Agni-1 launch that the shape of the missile looks like that of an SLBM. The range mentioned is same, and dimensions is similar. I Don't accept the dias 0.7 M. That is misleading. The article in Hindu today further confirm my suspicion.

IMO, they have designed this missile for the purpose of testing the underwater launch capability, before the final (bigger and costlier) version of the true SLBM to be fitted in submarines is ready. Advantage - time and cost saved. Added advantage - another missile (K-15 AKA AGNI-1- land based) to aim at Pukiland from deeper inside Indian territory.

More interesting to me is not the launch itself, but the timing of it - what is the significance of launching & proving the SLBM capability when Robert Gates is around? Are we following the Chinese in that when every time Indian Netas visit Beijing, they send some missiles up?

To me, SLBM capability was already proved when Manmohan Singh Awarded DRDO Scientists couple of years back...This launch is just to show it to the world - unkeel in particular.
Locked