ATV and K15 missile - News & Discussion

NRao
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Postby NRao » 28 Feb 2008 08:52

"arms race" = success.

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Postby ramana » 28 Feb 2008 09:15


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Postby Avid » 28 Feb 2008 17:46

Baljeet wrote:while we are at this subject, I want to make a prediction....
2015 Nov 15th War breaks out between Indian & Pak over water resrouces. Pakis have learned from their lizard all weather friend the art of local border war, new generation of Indians are not taking the bait, they retialiate from land, air and sea. Taliban has full control of souther afghanistan. Indian retialiation leaves devastated landscape above lahore to afghanistan, Indian Forces capture entire POK and Aksai chin. Taliban smells blood moves in with jihadi takes over what is left of pakistan. Indian Forces cut pakistan in two halves along rahim yaar khan landscape. Taliban and India make a deal, India won't provide any support to Ameri-khan, Taliban will not launch any jihad against India. Truce is a temporary peace till both sides regroup for final fight in next 10 years. India closes its border with Islamic Republic of Taliban. Shoot at site orders are issues, no enquiry, no jurisprudence on what happens in NW Border area.
War ends on Jan 15th, 2016. There is a tacit understanding between Hindu India, ME Crescent; Your fight is in other direction not towards east.


Had a nice something to smoke did you? :P

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Postby jamwal » 28 Feb 2008 18:02

:D

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Postby alokgupt » 28 Feb 2008 18:11

Avid wrote:
Baljeet wrote:while we are at this subject, I want to make a prediction....
2015 Nov 15th War breaks out between Indian & Pak over water resrouces. Pakis have learned from their lizard all weather friend the art of local border war, new generation of Indians are not taking the bait, they retialiate from land, air and sea. Taliban has full control of souther afghanistan. Indian retialiation leaves devastated landscape above lahore to afghanistan, Indian Forces capture entire POK and Aksai chin. Taliban smells blood moves in with jihadi takes over what is left of pakistan. Indian Forces cut pakistan in two halves along rahim yaar khan landscape. Taliban and India make a deal, India won't provide any support to Ameri-khan, Taliban will not launch any jihad against India. Truce is a temporary peace till both sides regroup for final fight in next 10 years. India closes its border with Islamic Republic of Taliban. Shoot at site orders are issues, no enquiry, no jurisprudence on what happens in NW Border area.
War ends on Jan 15th, 2016. There is a tacit understanding between Hindu India, ME Crescent; Your fight is in other direction not towards east.
Had a nice something to smoke did you? :P


Actually it is very nice...I hope it comes true. :wink:

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Postby SaiK » 28 Feb 2008 20:12

Are you guys saying hit the water flow table with a k-15 simulating an asteroid hit?, then the water diverts back to our plains? that would kill the pakis down right. not nice to even think about the sufferings. but, kya karega.

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Postby sunilUpa » 28 Feb 2008 20:40

From Express link

[quote]BALASORE: After successful test-firing of the nuclear-capable submarinelaunched ballistic missile (SLBM) K-15 yesterday, a defence scientist on Wednesday termed the exercise as a ‘stupendous success’.

“[b]The year-long patience and monthlong massive preparation by the defence scientists finally paid off as all the pre-coordinated parameters set by the mission team met 100 percent,â€

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Postby ramana » 28 Feb 2008 21:00

Good stuff. The DDM report (youtube video) I posted also said the same. Strangely even though the new conf was on Wednesday there were no reports or coverage all of last night. :(

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Postby Arun_S » 28 Feb 2008 21:16

The 500 second flight time is in agreement with 700km trajectory matching ROCKSIM results.

What no one has pointed out yet is the shape and size of the "Tilak" atop the second stage. That will be the first pic of new RV for Indian BM family. I do hope it shows an object 1.5m long and 42 cm diameter at base.

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Postby MN Kumar » 28 Feb 2008 21:42

Any idea about how much time a Nuclear Sub takes to go out to sea after the reactor has been fuelled?

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Postby SaiK » 28 Feb 2008 22:04

MN Kumar wrote:Any idea about how much time a Nuclear Sub takes to go out to sea after the reactor has been fuelled?

few seconds! :twisted: .

honestly, you would never get this data. :roll:

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Postby Gerard » 29 Feb 2008 00:55

Et tu Janes?

Sagarika test firing heralds India's SLBM capability
The turbojet-powered 8.5 m-long missile was initiated by the Aeronautical Development Establishment in the early 1990s


When even specialist military publications write about turbojet ballistic missiles, what hope for the mainstream press?

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Postby ramana » 29 Feb 2008 01:03

Never minds its the old friend DDM Rahul Bedi!

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Postby Gerard » 29 Feb 2008 01:04


SaiK
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Postby SaiK » 29 Feb 2008 01:29


possible to post complete article here? or is it copy righted?

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Postby Gerard » 29 Feb 2008 01:51

Put the title into google and do a search. Then click on the cached version.
You will get the text

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Postby k prasad » 29 Feb 2008 01:55

Arunji,

Made a rough analysis of the dimensions of the launcher from the Sagarika pic... is it approximately accurate?? Coz I made only a very rough estimation.

Image

Is it possible that this tube is only used for launching the missile without the underwater booster, which would allow for the length to go upto the requisite 11 m?

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Postby Anujan » 29 Feb 2008 03:45

SaiK wrote:

possible to post complete article here? or is it copy righted?


I can summarize it for you. The missile is a dud, it has only 435 mile range. It can hit only half of pakistan if launched from paki coast. (insert nice picture here). It cant even threaten china. India doesnt know how to make missiles, so unlikely it can ever make one to hit china. India did it simply because of pride.

Yawn. I think it will be a beautiful sight to see the article go up in the exhaust smoke of the next A-III test. Somebody wake me up then and send me the stratfor article about how A-III cannot hit american satellites circling the moon.

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Postby Arun_S » 29 Feb 2008 05:14

k prasad wrote:Arunji,

Made a rough analysis of the dimensions of the launcher from the Sagarika pic... is it approximately accurate?? Coz I made only a very rough estimation.

Image

Is it possible that this tube is only used for launching the missile without the underwater booster, which would allow for the length to go upto the requisite 11 m?

Prasadji: I dont know the answer unless I do a regiorus vetting of your assumption. I am not sure if you have provided your assumptions in that dimensioned image. Why dont you put down your assumption on how did you arrive at the scaling factor. That will making it easier for lay reader too. Besides I nowdays I hop across threads in a drive by shooting mode, due to paucity of time for serious contribution.

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Postby p_saggu » 29 Feb 2008 07:11

Gerard wrote:Put the title into google and do a search. Then click on the cached version.
You will get the text

:!: You genius you.
Doesn't work for Janes though... :cry:

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Postby Singha » 29 Feb 2008 08:28

Any idea about how much time a Nuclear Sub takes to go out to sea after the reactor has been fuelled?

I believe all things equal its same for sub and CVN at around 2 hrs. in a crisis deployment both are supposed to clear harbour and hit full speed for a sustained phase to leave behind enemy submarines lurking near the coast.
so they need those steam plants at full capacity before hitting the start button.

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Postby John Snow » 29 Feb 2008 08:56

Image
Israeli Dolphin sub.

According to Israeli sources, the three Dolphin-class submarines will give Israel a crucial third pillar of nuclear defence to complement the country's already much-vaunted land and air ramparts. While the Israelis' intention of using the German submarines as roving nuclear launch platforms had long been suspected, few experts had expected them to develop the capability to fire submarine-based cruise missiles so soon.


http://www.fas.org/news/israel/e20000619israelmakes.htm

so technically we can fit the K15 in existing subs itself till such time ATV arrives.

Kilo
Image
Last edited by John Snow on 29 Feb 2008 09:30, edited 2 times in total.

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Postby krishna_krishna » 29 Feb 2008 09:19

The article mentions clearly about submarine launched cruise missile by israel which they tested from german made submarine and not the ballistic missile as is the case with our K-15 , probably we can fire nirbhay from them but not K-15

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Postby Singha » 29 Feb 2008 09:30

practical limitation on torpedo launch is around 6m due to size of torpedo
room and handling eqpt. whever Israel uses must fit within 21" diameter and
6m length...so it cannot be a fast ballistic missile but more a slow SLCM.

has its uses but not K-15's assured speed and throw weight.

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Postby k prasad » 29 Feb 2008 09:50

Arun_S wrote:
k prasad wrote:Arunji,

Made a rough analysis of the dimensions of the launcher from the Sagarika pic... is it approximately accurate?? Coz I made only a very rough estimation.

Image

Is it possible that this tube is only used for launching the missile without the underwater booster, which would allow for the length to go upto the requisite 11 m?

Prasadji: I dont know the answer unless I do a regiorus vetting of your assumption. I am not sure if you have provided your assumptions in that dimensioned image. Why dont you put down your assumption on how did you arrive at the scaling factor. That will making it easier for lay reader too. Besides I nowdays I hop across threads in a drive by shooting mode, due to paucity of time for serious contribution.


I couldnt find the height figures for the Tata 8x8, but used the dimensions for the closest relative I could, the Tatra T815 8x8, which is 3240 mm tall (See). Assuming it be be 3 m, you can see the perspective line drawn to the rear of the vehicle. sing the pixel dimensions at the rear, I calculated the length and diameter of the tube. However, I do think that it will be slightly longer than I calculated, at around 9.5-9.7 m, since I havent considered perspective in 3 Dimensions. Plus, I would have to make extra corrections in case the height has been underestimated by a foot, since in that case, the absolute error in the tube length will be higher, probably around 20-40 cm.

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Postby Drevin » 29 Feb 2008 10:31

Gerard wrote:Put the title into google and do a search. Then click on the cached version.
You will get the text


damn nice. It works.

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Postby krishnan » 29 Feb 2008 11:07

Very old article


http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/south_asia/164792.stm

Mr Fernandes said that India is also developing a cruise missile system called 'Sagarika'.

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Postby Austin » 29 Feb 2008 12:30

John Snow wrote:so technically we can fit the K15 in existing subs itself till such time ATV arrives.


Knowing the dimension of what K-15 is ( 11 x 0.7 m ) , it will not be possible to do that , mainly because none of the subs are of modular type , hence you cant cut a kilo add a K-15 module and things start rolling , unless you redesign the Kilos for it from scratch , not worth IMHO

The only option is the new class of conventional sub we are planning to buy , these can be designed built to accommodate K-15 plus Brahmos ( we might need a hump for the new design since K-15 length is 11m compared to brahmos 8.5 m) not a wise thing to do for a conventional sub , drag and power requirement consideration

hence I feel the K-15 SLBM will be limited to ATV.

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Postby Philip » 29 Feb 2008 14:29

Since the existene of K-15 and the underwater "pontoon"has now been revealed,we can now discuss an idea which I supressed for a long time for obvious reasons.As an interin measure until the ATV arrives,we could use underwater barges/pontoons,equipped with several missiles in their silos and tow them to secret bastions close to our naval bases.It would be easy to hide such installations.However,sicne the ATV is arriving sooner rather than later along with the Akulas,the need for such 'nuclear barges",a naval version of land based mobile launchers,might not be needed.Still,the idea of mine could be examined as it could complement our SSBMs,being considerably cheaper to build and operate.

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Postby babbupandey » 29 Feb 2008 16:22

Is it financially viable to invest in that kind of infrastructure given that the official range of K-15 is only 700 kms. Also, such "static" infrastructure can be detected by enemy quite easily.


Philip wrote:Since the existene of K-15 and the underwater "pontoon"has now been revealed,we can now discuss an idea which I supressed for a long time for obvious reasons.As an interin measure until the ATV arrives,we could use underwater barges/pontoons,equipped with several missiles in their silos and tow them to secret bastions close to our naval bases.It would be easy to hide such installations.However,sicne the ATV is arriving sooner rather than later along with the Akulas,the need for such 'nuclear barges",a naval version of land based mobile launchers,might not be needed.Still,the idea of mine could be examined as it could complement our SSBMs,being considerably cheaper to build and operate.

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Postby alokgupt » 29 Feb 2008 17:59

p_saggu wrote:
Gerard wrote:Put the title into google and do a search. Then click on the cached version.
You will get the text

:!: You genius you.
Doesn't work for Janes though... :cry:


The article in Stratfor is written by likes of Ravi. Somehow the author thinks that India is building SLBM for Porkistan. India's primary enemy - China.

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Postby Gerard » 29 Feb 2008 18:31

underwater barges/pontoons,equipped with several missiles in their silos and tow them to secret bastions close to our naval bases.


Interesting... both mobile and easily hidden... silos without the disadvantages.

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Postby Sanku » 29 Feb 2008 18:39

Gerard wrote:
underwater barges/pontoons,equipped with several missiles in their silos and tow them to secret bastions close to our naval bases.


Interesting... both mobile and easily hidden... silos without the disadvantages.


Not to mention the protection provided by the sea itself to the depth of 50 M

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Postby John Snow » 29 Feb 2008 20:35

Sanku wrote:
Gerard wrote:
underwater barges/pontoons,equipped with several missiles in their silos and tow them to secret bastions close to our naval bases.


Interesting... both mobile and easily hidden... silos without the disadvantages.


Not to mention the protection provided by the sea itself to the depth of 50 M


Folks dont you think such stationary launching pilons or silos be detected by satellites? IR detectors the difference between waters around and the silo. What about corrosion etc?

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Postby disha » 29 Feb 2008 21:09

John Snow wrote:Folks dont you think such stationary launching pilons or silos be detected by satellites? IR detectors the difference between waters around and the silo. What about corrosion etc?


Sink several dummy pontoons all over the place. Some of them can have real fat ladies which sing once in a while. Lizard has now several targets to take out to ensure a 100% kill - which they will never be able to achieve. Problem solved

Regarding corrosion, make the pontoons out of fibreglass painted duly in red colour - we can take the leaf out of this from our neighbour. Fibreglass will not corrode and will also provide an environment for fisheries. 100% SDRE soln.

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Postby ramana » 29 Feb 2008 21:27

The ATV comes online in a couple of years and this would be redundant.

Philip the reason why they dont have surfaced ship based assets is they are destabilizing for they invite a first strike. The Italians were to have a ship based SLBM in the mid sixties and the idea got dropped.

To me the future sub-based vehicle will be some thing that will put a skip glider type payload to give it stand off range. Something thats near Dolphins nose area and can send it anywhere.

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Postby SaiK » 01 Mar 2008 00:15

Exactly, we better invest in the noise reduction and signature reduction technologies, including those silicon-poly rubber products that support noise reduction inside the sub., for washers between nuts and bolts, fire resistant carpeting, NBC suites, etc.

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Postby Rahul Shukla » 01 Mar 2008 00:37

AOA!

So the idea is to drop real K-15 pantoons sprinkled within the dummy pantoon distribution?

1). They will be detected by satellite.
2). MPA's will decipher real ones from dummies.
3). Uncle's rig will come and steal (tow) away a couple of pantoons from 'international waters' for analysis.

Yindoos will be left crying chor, chor. However, uncle will say he didn't steal any K-15+Nuke+Pantoon but simply "borrowed without permission", with intention to give back sometime during the next 5 decades. :lol:

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Postby Dilbu » 01 Mar 2008 00:40

Rahul Shukla wrote:AOA!

So the idea is to drop real K-15 pantoons sprinkled within the dummy pantoon distribution?

1). They will be detected by satellite.
2). MPA's will decipher real ones from dummies.
3). Uncle's rig will come and steal (tow) away a couple of pantoons from 'international waters' for analysis.

Yindoos will be left crying chor, chor. However, uncle will say he didn't steal any K-15+Nuke+Pantoon but simply "borrowed without permission", with intention to give back sometime during the next 5 decades. :lol:

Like they borrowed the grenade or explosive whatever that was mumbai blast evidence and 'misplaced' it. Once an Unkil always an Unkil. :D

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Postby k prasad » 01 Mar 2008 00:44

Dilbu wrote:Like they borrowed the grenade or explosive whatever that was mumbai blast evidence and 'misplaced' it. Once an Unkil always an Unkil. :D


When did this happen?? I have no idea about this..


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