Hawk crashes

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Vishnu
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Hawk crashes

Post by Vishnu »

PRESS INFORMATION BUREAU (DEFENCE WING)

GOVERNMENT OF INDIA


HAWK AIRCRAFT ACCIDENT


New Delhi : April 30, 2008

One hawk trainer aircraft of IAF met with an accident at Air Force Station Bidar on 29 Apr 08 at 1240 hrs while proceeding on a routine mission.

No person was injured or killed as a result of the accident. There was no damage to civil or other property. An enquiry has been ordered to investigate the reasons for the accident.
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Post by sauravjha »

bloody hell!

Is the aircraft lost?
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Post by Avinandan »

Its a very sad incident indeed :( :(
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Post by CPrakash »

According to shiv aroors blog, both pilots ejected. Whcih would mean considerable damage on ground - or a write off if it was in air.
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Post by sanjaychoudhry »

Sounds like RAF has been suffering the same problem with Hawk.
The RAF is coming under pressure to reveal the accident rate of its Hawk trainer aircraft after a second machine crashed near a north Wales airbase in six months.

The plane, which is worth £5m-7m, came down in a field just yards from a farmhouse on Anglesey, whose occupants are on holiday in Australia, after the pilot ejected within 20 seconds of take-off.
The RAF has denied the Hawk has an accident rate which is higher than other aircraft in service.

But the Celtic League, a lobby group for Celtic culture which monitors the impact of military activity in Wales, said the RAF "should come clean about the alarming attrition rate of this troubled aircraft".
Celtic League General Secretary, Bernard Moffat, said: "It is the latest in a series of accidents, some involving serious injury or fatalities involving the type, whilst in RAF service.

"The Celtic League have monitored its chequered history over the years. This indicates a disturbing accident pattern.

"The attrition rate for the aircraft has seen approximately 20% of the 180 procured by the RAF lost in accidents and many incidents have occurred during take off and landings indicating instability and power problems.
"Difficulties with a much modified version adopted by the United States Navy (The T-45) support this scenario.

"The introduction of the US version was delayed following an accident whilst power and stability problems were addressed.

"It is past time the RAF came clean about the problems associated with the aircraft.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/wales/1824165.stm
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Post by Surya »

phew


Pilots are safe.

Thats all I care for the time being.
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Post by rsingh »

Do they have some kind "Bima Policy" for such incidents?
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Post by gogna »

Thank god pilots are safe

Lets hope its not start of a trend, also how do trainee pilot progress to flying AJT hawk
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Post by sanjaychoudhry »

A newly-inducted Hawk jet trainer of the Indian Air Force crashed at Bidar in Karnataka on Tuesday. Both pilots survived the crash.

The British-made trainer aircraft went down shortly after take-off from the Bidar training base. The pilots were experienced instructors.

Ironically, the Hawk advanced jet trainers have been acquired as enablers to reduce the accident rate of the Indian Air Force. But these aircraft have got off to a bad start adding to the tally of IAF crashes this year.

The first lot of 10 Hawk aircraft were inducted into the IAF in February this year. India is acquiring 100 more of these jet trainers.

According to reports, the fleet of 10 Hawks, purchased off the shelf from Britain, have been grounded until an inquiry is held.
Click
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Post by Kartik »

There was a video of a Hawk crashing after the aircraft ingested a bird soon after rotating for take off. I wonder if that could be the case here too, otherwise for a brand new jet to crash is really sad..had it been the Sitara, the press would've gone to town about how indigenous programs lacked quality control.
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Post by SaiK »

after paying billions and after waiting decades of years, weren't engines made to withstand bird ingestions? many a civlian engines are developed to withstand it.

did the bird crash into the canopy and it broke lose? i have heard LCA tests canopy for bird hits.

hawks crashing cause of birds is unacceptable from the a/c design angle and from aircraft safety administration as well. perhaps, a/cs need more sophisticated very short range radars to smell bird blood and evade by early warnings.

probe must be launched immly.
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Post by jmaxwell »

Kartik wrote:...had it been the Sitara, the press would've gone to town about how indigenous programs lacked quality control.
Meanwhile, gora presses will credit the crash to the inexperienced (if reading a paki site, replace 'inexperienced' with 'ever incompetent') SRDE yindoos (who are better off flying kites). Nobody will cast a shadow of doubt on the gora made, and hence infallible hawk.
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Post by sum »

Shocking to say the least!!!! :x
Am only thanking heavens that the pilots are safe and it wasnt a Indian built craft crashing which would have the the DDM out in full flow....
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Post by SaiK »

lets keep this gora, paki stuffs out and get to the failure analysis. its insane that we immly have to have some kind of safe way to errors, and escape to not take blames.

who are we covering up?
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Post by vivek_ahuja »

SaiK wrote:after paying billions and after waiting decades of years, weren't engines made to withstand bird ingestions? many a civlian engines are developed to withstand it.

did the bird crash into the canopy and it broke lose? i have heard LCA tests canopy for bird hits.

hawks crashing cause of birds is unacceptable from the a/c design angle and from aircraft safety administration as well. perhaps, a/cs need more sophisticated very short range radars to smell bird blood and evade by early warnings.
Wow. Saik saar, I hope you were kidding or emotional when you made these statements because you can't be serious on the above.

For one thing, fighter aircraft engines have small engines with low bypass fans at the most in a ducted system. A bird hitting it means that the debris hits almost every component one after another down the line until you have a flameout. At that point the aircraft is doomed.

Civilian aircraft engines also have this problem if a bird is ingested within the core flow. But here's the difference: the bird has to hit the core region of the frontal cross section to cause a problem. These engines have large bypass fans which means that a bird hitting there causes damage to the fan but is thrown out behind without passing through the crucial components in a domino fashion.

Further, on a sidenote, the size of the bird also matters. An eagle being ingested is different from a sparrow being ingested, despite how lame it may sound.

These are operational problems, and you cannot compensate for that by pressuring the design team to make allowances at the detriment of weight and volume and hence the aircraft performance overall for a scenario that might happen extremely rarely.
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Post by Kartik »

SaiK wrote:after paying billions and after waiting decades of years, weren't engines made to withstand bird ingestions? many a civlian engines are developed to withstand it.

did the bird crash into the canopy and it broke lose? i have heard LCA tests canopy for bird hits.

hawks crashing cause of birds is unacceptable from the a/c design angle and from aircraft safety administration as well. perhaps, a/cs need more sophisticated very short range radars to smell bird blood and evade by early warnings.

probe must be launched immly.
compare the diameter of the fan for civilian jets like the 777 and fighter jets like Hawk..its like a projectile hitting the blades at very high speeds and for single engined fighter aircraft, its almost impossible to make it bird-hit proof..once the bird is ingested, the compressor blades will be damaged, airflow will be fouled and even if the pilot attempts to relight, in most cases it won't work.

as for canopy breakage, I do know of an incident where a RAF Harrier hit some geese and despite the canopy shattering, he managed to land the fighter, but had a harrowing time. a bird weighing even 10 pounds at the relative speeds at which collision occurs is equivalent to a projectile only and very little can be done to make the canopy proof against such hits.
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Post by SaiK »

Didn't P&W solve the bird ingestion, with a pre-processor kind of blades that grinds and send the crushed particles with minimal injection into the combustion chamber. Dunno, how they would solve the suction without any temporary shutdown of the main combustion chamber.

It could be my memory or some documentary show in nat geo /sci-mil channel., that I did see the presentation or talk about it. Anyway, yes.. its the emotional part driving at this.
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Post by Kartik »

from wikipedia;
Most large commercial jet engines include design features that ensure they can shut-down after "ingesting" a bird weighing up to 1.8 kg (4 lb). The engine does not have to survive the ingestion, just be safely shut down. This is a 'stand alone' requirement, i.e., the engine must pass the test, not the aircraft. Multiple strikes on twin engine jet aircraft are very serious events, they can disable multiple aircraft systems, requiring emergency action to land the aircraft.

Modern jet aircraft structures must be able to withstand one four pound bird collision; the empennage (tail) must withstand one 8 pound bird collision. Cockpit windows on jet aircraft must be able to withstand one 4 pound bird collision without yielding or spawlding.
framless canopies are more hard to design to be able to withstand bird hits.
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Post by John Snow »

Those engines are different
they are called EVFBF Engines
"Engines Vaccinated For Bird Flew".
You have to pay extra as they are optional not standard equipment.
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Post by sanjaychoudhry »

Hawk air force jet crashes in India

An Indian air force Hawk trainer jet crashed during take-off in the first accident involving the British-built plane here, but the pilot escaped unharmed, officials said Wednesday.

The two-seater jet slammed into a wall while taking offlate Tuesday from an airbase in southern India, airforce officials said.

"The pilot escaped unhurt," said an official who did not want to be named, adding the extent of damage to the 22-million-dollar plane was not yet known.
Click
New Delhi, April 30: One of the Indian Air Force's just acquired Hawk Advanced Jet Trainer was damaged as the pilot had to abort the take off for a training mission at Bidar airport in Karnataka.

The pilot, sensing some technical hitch, aborted the take off yesterday leading to the aircraft hitting a side wall, according to Air Force officials here.

The pilot escaped without any injury but the extent of damage to the aircraft was not immediately known.
http://www.zeenews.com/articles.asp?aid=440090&sid=NAT

There was no bird hit. It was a case of aborted take off where the pilot bailed out but the jet slammed into a side wall.
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Post by putnanja »

Hawk fleet grounded after crash, IAF says new aircraft had old parts

[quote] NEW DELHI, APRIL 30: India’s newly acquired fleet of Hawk fighter trainers has been grounded for a second time after one of them crashed at the Bidar airbase on Tuesday afternoon while taking off on a training mission. Both pilots escaped unharmed.

While the entire fleet has been facing problems since the induction in February due to lack of spares, the grounding comes weeks after the IAF discovered that the new aircraft contained parts that were rusted and appeared to be old and used.

This came as a surprise as the trainers — 66 were bought in a Rs 8,000-crore deal inked in 2004 — are new and were inducted barely three months ago. In fact, only 10 aircraft have arrived until now from the assembly line in UK.

After Air Hqs informed the Ministry of Defence about the matter, the Defence Secretary has been asked to head for London on May 19 to raise the issue with top UK government officials.

As first reported by The Indian Express on March 23, the fleet had earlier been grounded, shortly after the aircraft arrived in January, due to lack of spares and technical problems.

Sources at Air Hqs said that the British High Commissioner has also been contacted and an official communication has been sent to the original manufacturers, the UK-based BAE Systems.

It is learnt that the problem with the Hawks pertains to certain parts like the undercarriage and the pitot-static tube —it gives the pilots feedback on airspeed and altitude — that IAF technical teams discovered were rusted.

The fleet will now remain grounded until the reason behind Tuesday’s crash is investigated. The IAF’s training schedule is likely to get affected as the first course on the new trainers was set to begin at Bidar in July.


While a court of inquiry has been ordered into the crash and human error is not ruled out, IAF sources say that initial investigation points to a fault either in the undercarriage or the yaw controllers that are used to stabilise the aircraft. The IAF says that both pilots were experienced instructors with several hundred hours of combat flying in their logbooks.

Officials from BAE Systems, who concede that there are “small issuesâ€
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Post by NRao »

I think both the Brits and RUians should out source spares to the rural areas of Indian Punjab. :evil:
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Post by SaiK »

http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m ... 0674/print

F119-PW-100 Engine

There was a birdstrike in FY02 that resulted in Class A damage to an F119 engine that was especially noteworthy and not discussed in any of the preceding paragraphs or charts.

An F-22A Raptor departed on an aircraft delivery mission. Just prior to rolling out from a right-hand banked turn, the MA struck a large bird. The chase aircraft conducted a battle damage assessment, with no damage noted. The MP did not have any cockpit indications to suggest bird ingestion by either engine. After reducing gross weight the MP flew an uneventful straight-in full stop landing back at the departure base. Damage to the right-hand engine was discovered during post-flight inspections. Teardown of the engine revealed bird remains and airfoil damage throughout all nine stages of the fan and compressor. A portion of a first-stage fan blade was also broken off and ingested by the engine.

Analysis of the bird remains indicated it was a Common Loon, which has an average weight of nine pounds! Despite ingestion of this large bird, the engine continued to operate with minimal vibration and without secondary failures. Additionally, the comprehensive engine diagnostic unit did not record any fault codes. Kudos go to the F119 team for the design of such a robust engine.
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Post by gopal.suri »

:D Must have used parts built 20 years back when they were confident of bagging IAF order. Just kidding.
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Post by sum »

Slowly, the dirt starts coming out from behind the curtains...
[quote]“A number of small issues have arisen with the Hawks that have been delivered and are in service with the Indian Air Force. We take resolution of these issues very seriously and are working closely with the IAF to resolve these, to both their and our satisfaction,â€
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Post by rakall »

[quote="sum"]Slowly, the dirt starts coming out from behind the curtains...
[quote]“A number of small issues have arisen with the Hawks that have been delivered and are in service with the Indian Air Force. We take resolution of these issues very seriously and are working closely with the IAF to resolve these, to both their and our satisfaction,â€
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Post by ASPuar »

Im slightly disgusted by the bizarre crowing over an accident involving one of our own aircraft, flown by our own boys, who had nothing to do with buying it, and could have lost their lives, while doing something that contributes directly to our security and the well being of our nation.

Show some sensitivity and decorum. The crash of an asset of our own air force is nothing to dance about. If there was a suitable Advanced Jet Trainer on offer from our own industry Im sure it would have been bought, and used. Since there wasnt, and the air force was losing pilots at a shocking rate, the next best thing was purchased.

At any rate, I hope the various posters who are reeling with glee over this news will think about what they are so happy about, and delete their posts.
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Post by rakall »

ASPuar wrote:Im slightly disgusted by the bizarre crowing over an accident involving one of our own aircraft, flown by our own boys, who had nothing to do with buying it, and could have lost their lives, while doing something that contributes directly to our security and the well being of our nation.

Show some sensitivity and decorum. The crash of an asset of our own air force is nothing to dance about. If there was a suitable Advanced Jet Trainer on offer from our own industry Im sure it would have been bought, and used. Since there wasnt, and the air force was losing pilots at a shocking rate, the next best thing was purchased.

At any rate, I hope the various posters who are reeling with glee over this news will think about what they are so happy about, and delete their posts.
HAL had proposed to build a CAT -- it was shot down on the grounds that we are inducting Hawk and will most certainly place extra orders for 47 more..

Nobody is gleeful about the accident.. Pretty much relieved that pilots survived.. and disgusted that we accept rusted spares from foriegn suppliers where as we treat indigenous products with a long pole..

Just that we should see the reality check in the accident -- and begin to appreciate indigenous development more..

Anyway every coin has two sides -- upto the individual to see head or tails... evry post has a negative connotation if you serach for it with a lens.

given the history of BR posts turning into slugfests easily - this is my last on the topic.
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Post by Philip »

Until the enquiry is over,we should resist speculation.However,if there are reports of Hawk crashes abroad,with the countries that operate it and those crash results are known,pilot or mechanical reasons,fair deal.The IJT too did hit the deck at Aero-India.The detailed neglect of India designing anything since the HF-24 days,can be moved to another historical thread.
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Post by gogna »

Indian and a British pilot were in the cockpit

Luckily one of the pilot in the cockpit was gora instructor. Also some of the news report are saying pilots ejected as the HAWK skidded away on the runway, don't they have to at certain height to eject.
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Post by Kersi D »

Kartik wrote:
SaiK wrote:after paying billions and after waiting decades of years, weren't engines made to withstand bird ingestions? many a civlian engines are developed to withstand it.

did the bird crash into the canopy and it broke lose? i have heard LCA tests canopy for bird hits.

hawks crashing cause of birds is unacceptable from the a/c design angle and from aircraft safety administration as well. perhaps, a/cs need more sophisticated very short range radars to smell bird blood and evade by early warnings.

probe must be launched immly.

as for canopy breakage, I do know of an incident where a RAF Harrier hit some geese and despite the canopy shattering, he managed to land the fighter, but had a harrowing time. a bird weighing even 10 pounds at the relative speeds at which collision occurs is equivalent to a projectile only and very little can be done to make the canopy proof against such hits.
This has also happened with IAF. I know the case of a Jaguar that got a bird hit. The canopy did not break but the pilot could not see anything. With the help of his wingmate he landed safely
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Post by JTull »

gogna wrote:Indian and a British pilot were in the cockpit

Luckily one of the pilot in the cockpit was gora instructor. Also some of the news report are saying pilots ejected as the HAWK skidded away on the runway, don't they have to at certain height to eject.
That's what the 0-0 Martin Baker seats are for. Can eject at ground level as well (once armed).
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Post by Jagan »

rakall wrote:[

HAL had proposed to build a CAT -- it was shot down on the grounds that we are inducting Hawk and will most certainly place extra orders for 47 more..

Nobody is gleeful about the accident.. Pretty much relieved that pilots survived.. and disgusted that we accept rusted spares from foriegn suppliers where as we treat indigenous products with a long pole..

Just that we should see the reality check in the accident -- and begin to appreciate indigenous development more..

Anyway every coin has two sides -- upto the individual to see head or tails... evry post has a negative connotation if you serach for it with a lens.

given the history of BR posts turning into slugfests easily - this is my last on the topic.
The HAL CAT was shown as a half mockup in 2005 Aero india. Asking the IAF not to induct a well proven and tested Advanced Trainer and ask it to wait till the CAT was prototyped, flown, approved and inducted doesnt make sense.

The IJT is still undergoing testing five years after the first flight of the prototype - how long will the CAT take? and how long will it take before it is inducted in good numbers?
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Post by Jagan »

ASPuar wrote:Im slightly disgusted by the bizarre crowing over an accident involving one of our own aircraft, flown by our own boys, who had nothing to do with buying it, and could have lost their lives, while doing something that contributes directly to our security and the well being of our nation. .
You are being too polite by using the word "slightly"
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Post by gopal.suri »

You are right Jagan... 20 years is too short a wait.
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Post by shiv »

Do we need this thread any more?
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Post by gopal.suri »

Actually since the gora did not die, you can close this tread. No fun!
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Post by swapna »

We would be buying second hand stuff from US as wel most likely if we go for the 126 fighter aircraft contract. They are set to retire f-16 an f-18
by 2020 and its a nice way to retire aircraft . Sell to India with new paint.
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Post by Kartik »

Philip wrote:Until the enquiry is over,we should resist speculation.However,if there are reports of Hawk crashes abroad,with the countries that operate it and those crash results are known,pilot or mechanical reasons,fair deal.The IJT too did hit the deck at Aero-India.The detailed neglect of India designing anything since the HF-24 days,can be moved to another historical thread.
ah, one of BRF's own indigenous baiters comes to the fore..the IJT Sitara crashed because the pilot, a senior test pilot, FORGOT to latch the canopy properly and it came off during takeoff. it had nothing to do with the aircraft having any issues. and anyway, the aircraft was not written off, and has been returned to the flight line.

although the enquiry is'nt over, the fact is that had this much been said about something like the Tejas (which desi baiters love to hate) or the Dhruv (faulty composite rotor blades), Sitara, Akash or Arjun , we'd have been treated to some high grade DDM journalism.

and servicibility rates of just around 40% for a brand new jet fleet could be attributed to teething troubles (Gnat anyone?), but the same attitude should be maintained when a desi product is inducted as well..but instead, we keep on hearing BS about how the Dhruv has had low servicibility, how the Army does'nt have faith in it, etc. even in its case, its a generation apart from the kind of helos the Army operates, but is'nt given the same leeway. there was a report in HAL's own journal about how a Royal Nepal Army pilot had initially had reservations about the Dhruv, but after flying it, claimed that it was the most wonderful helo he'd flown ever. how come DDM never reports this kind of thing?

and no one on BRF wants to hear that our pilots died or our own aircraft crashed (except for Puke lurkers), but reports of faulty spares, rusty parts, etc. on a new jet are very serious..for this level of seriousness on a desi product, HAL or DRDO would've been skewered.
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Post by gopal.suri »

Em... then what will Bakistan fly?
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