Long range Agni missile & test launch :Part-1

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Postby Gerard » 13 Apr 2008 01:51


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Postby babbupandey » 13 Apr 2008 10:25

This is catch-22 situation. Best time to test fire missiles, as I read somewhere, is in April-May only. Delaying the test by 2-3 weeks is as good as delaying it by year.
Probably DRDO could cover up the lighting in their complex. Apart from lighting, I do not think that missile testing could harm the turtles in any other manner. But it is best to let the experts in this forum comment on this :)


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Postby vivek_ahuja » 13 Apr 2008 10:32

Ah yes, the turtles...

You know, we may be the only country in the world that actually mixes national security with sea turtle nesting, but we care, and that feels good somehow. Its what sets us apart from all the tin-pot nations around us.
Though I don't know what emotions I am mixing up here... :lol:

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Postby negi » 13 Apr 2008 10:45

Aw..these are one of those jhollawallah environmentalists who are trying their best to grab media attention.

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Postby babbupandey » 13 Apr 2008 10:48

It does somehow matter. National security is of course supreme, but India is also a responsible country.
We are the only country having Asiatic Lion and One-Horned Rhino, something I feel proud of. I am sure DRDO will come up with some solution, they won't be taking such things casually.

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Postby ManuJ » 13 Apr 2008 11:27

The same report says
B.C. Choudhury, a senior scientist at the Wildlife Institute of India (WWI) at Dehradun told HT over phone, “It may not be correct to blame a single agency like DRDO or a single activity like the missile tests for the lack of mass nesting of the Olive Ridleys. Illumination of the test range may have contributed a little bit, but it is not the sole factor. Chronic activities like intensive fishing activities, changes in beach profile and other activities may have affected mass nesting of turtles this time.

This recent report from the same newspaper blames sea dredging for lack of mass nesting of Ridley turtles on Nisa island (the same island for which DRDO is being blamed):
Sea Dredging Blamed

Environmentalists obviously need to do much more research and data collection before blame can be conclusively pinned. Till then, Agni testing should go on.

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Postby Gerard » 13 Apr 2008 18:44

Kalam calls for Olive Ridley turtle rookery
Mr. Kalam narrated how while working as leader of a missile development team at Wheeler Island, he had received a message from Prof. Padma Hejmadi, a conservationist, saying that the lights in the range created problems in the hatching of the Olive Ridley.

He studied the problem with his team, which took a number of facilitating measures such as controlled lighting whenever needed and reducing the movement of people and vehicles on the beach. On creating a rookery, he suggested such a scientific endeavour could be undertaken as a joint venture among LaCONES, Council for Scientific and Industrial Research and Defence Research and Development Organisation, ecologists and biologists.

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Postby Arun_S » 19 Apr 2008 21:48

Here is a nugget from Prof APJ Kalam's autobiography "Wings of Fire" that supports the SRDE Agni-II's payload delivery capabeility, and an answer to those who say Agni-II renge is 2500km and no more.

Prof APJ Kalam's autobiography "Wings of Fire" Page-102
"We established that the SLV-3 solid rocket system would meet the national requirements of payload delivery vehicles for short and intermediate ranges (4000 km). We contended that the development of one additional solid booster of 1.8m diameter with 36 tonne of propellant along with SLV-3 subsystems would meet the ICBM requirement (above 5000Km for 1000 kg payload). This proposal was however never considered. It neverthless paved the way for the formulation of the Re-entry Experiment (REX) which, much much later on became Agni. "

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Postby csharma » 19 Apr 2008 21:56

India to test Agni III+ ballistic missile in 2009

From Hindustan Times.

India will test indigenously built Agni III+ ballistic missile with a strike range of more than 5000 km in 2009.

The long-range missile is currently in the design stage, VK Saraswat, Chief Controller (R&D) of the Defence Research and Development Organisation (DRDO) said in Visakhapatnam on Monday.

"We are looking for trial in early 2009," he told reporters on the sidelines of the 95th Indian Science Congress in Visakhapatnam.

After the induction of the surface-to-air missile Akash by the Air Force, the Army is starting user trials for the sophisticated anti-tank Nag missiles this summer.

"User trials for Nag will be held in May-June in the Rajasthan desert," Saraswat said.

Nag is an all weather anti-tank guided missile. Design work on the missile started in 1988 and the first tests were carried out in November 1990.

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Postby H.B.Krishna » 19 Apr 2008 23:16

"We established that the SLV-3 solid rocket system would meet the national requirements of payload delivery vehicles for short and intermediate ranges (4000 km). We contended that the development of one additional solid booster of 1.8m diameter with 36 tonne of propellant along with SLV-3 subsystems would meet the ICBM requirement (above 5000Km for 1000 kg payload). This proposal was however never considered. It neverthless paved the way for the formulation of the Re-entry Experiment (REX) which, much much later on became Agni. "

But Saar, doesn't this vindicate West's fear (rather psychosis, viewing non papal India a threat) that India can develop ICBMs from its space program ?

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Postby Arun_S » 19 Apr 2008 23:37

H.B.Krishna wrote:
"We established that the SLV-3 solid rocket system would meet the national requirements of payload delivery vehicles for short and intermediate ranges (4000 km). We contended that the development of one additional solid booster of 1.8m diameter with 36 tonne of propellant along with SLV-3 subsystems would meet the ICBM requirement (above 5000Km for 1000 kg payload). This proposal was however never considered. It neverthless paved the way for the formulation of the Re-entry Experiment (REX) which, much much later on became Agni. "

But Saar, doesn't this vindicate West's fear (rather psychosis, viewing non papal India a threat) that India can develop ICBMs from its space program ?


Yes India is a equal equal to west. India will be happy to follow Wests example. If West has not Missile and rocket programs joined at hip, they have as much entitlement to ask India for uber abstinence as Prostitutes have to preach of virginity and monogamy.

Truth is the way it is. West doesn't like it they can stick it up their rear end, and no more preaching the gospel to heathen India.

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Postby vivek_ahuja » 20 Apr 2008 00:33

Arun_S wrote:Here is a nugget from Prof APJ Kalam's autobiography "Wings of Fire" that supports the SRDE Agni-II's payload delivery capabeility, and an answer to those who say Agni-II renge is 2500km and no more.


Well, Arun saar, DDM apart, I doubt anyone seriously believes the 2500Km restriction on the Agni-II anyway.

For the Agni-II, I have always believed the weights provided by official sources to be somewhat misleading. Personally speaking, I still have reservations regarding the 1000Kg max load for a 16K tonne missile for 2500Km.

To put it another way, the only way you can restrict the Agni-II to around 2500Km is if you put a warhead in the range of around 1200-1500Kg. Put a 1000Kg warhead and the missile zooms off to beyond 3000Km.

Put a 500kg warhead, and it reaches the 4000Km mark.

Now given recent suggested progress in warhead weight reductions for fixed yield, I doubt you would need a payload stage beyond 500Kg or maybe slightly more.

The Pukis and chinis are in for a real treat if they go into denial and throw science out of the window and comfort themselves with ideas that the Agni-II is only a 2.5K missile... :twisted:

Added Later: The above still does not include a HAM and uses a very conservative (As far as IRBMs are concerned anyway) Prop-mass fraction of 0.85 for both stages.

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Postby satyarthi » 20 Apr 2008 01:39

AFAIK, it was Arun_S who first made the case for Agni's higher than stated range. He was the one who also first presented the shape of AGNI-3 much before it was launched etc. His style can be abrasive for some, but he does back up his claims with public domain sources providing evidence, either direct or cicumstantial.

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Postby Gerard » 20 Apr 2008 01:43


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Postby ramana » 20 Apr 2008 05:46

Arun, India defines ICBMs as greater than 5000km range. I don't know why bt thats the definition. Elsewhere it is any vehicle that develops 7km/sec RV velocity. As far as I can recall there sued to be an old book on rickets and missiles published in 1958 that used to call 5000 km range as ICBM. Maybe India is stuck on that definiton.

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Postby NRao » 20 Apr 2008 09:41

I think India wants to keep under the radar on ICBMs. Adding + signs ruffles far fewer feathers.

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Postby Shankar » 20 Apr 2008 11:52

Well, Arun saar, DDM apart, I doubt anyone seriously believes the 2500Km restriction on the Agni-II anyway.

For the Agni-II, I have always believed the weights provided by official sources to be somewhat misleading. Personally speaking, I still have reservations regarding the 1000Kg max load for a 16K tonne missile for 2500Km.

To put it another way, the only way you can restrict the Agni-II to around 2500Km is if you put a warhead in the range of around 1200-1500Kg. Put a 1000Kg warhead and the missile zooms off to beyond 3000Km.

Put a 500kg warhead, and it reaches the 4000Km mark.

Now given recent suggested progress in warhead weight reductions for fixed yield, I doubt you would need a payload stage beyond 500Kg or maybe slightly more.

The Pukis and chinis are in for a real treat if they go into denial and throw science out of the window and comfort themselves with ideas that the Agni-II is only a 2.5K missile... Twisted Evil


Agni series have always been dragon specific and 2500 kms is the minimum range ever considered for technology demonstrator purpose only with much heavier than normal payload

Agni 2 is nothing but a medium range ballistic missile that mean 4000-5000 kms with 500 kg warhead

Following the same logic Agni 3 is 7500 km plus range missile and agni 3 + will be 12500 km range ICBM

but as usal our media will report it as a 5000 km missile with a 1500 + kg payload

my guess?

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Postby vivek_ahuja » 20 Apr 2008 12:22

Shankar wrote:Agni series have always been dragon specific and 2500 kms is the minimum range ever considered for technology demonstrator purpose only with much heavier than normal payload


True. Even the standard Agni-I is capable of hitting targets at ranges beyond 1200Km for light loads of around 500Kg. Plenty useful for airbases in Tibet, I guess. :twisted:

But I think it is still based for use against the Pukis so far.

Agni 2 is nothing but a medium range ballistic missile that mean 4000-5000 kms with 500 kg warhead


Actually, as far as the Agni-II is concerned, I would bet my money on hitting the 4000Km mark, not crossing it. Of course, you never know what the cunning DRDO people might have come up with that we don't know about...:twisted:

Following the same logic Agni 3 is 7500 km plus range missile and agni 3 + will be 12500 km range ICBM


Although I will not speculate about the 3+ model, (I guess Arun Saar has already spoken on this), but as far as the 3TD model is concerned, your guess is around the right range. It is probably in the range of 7000 to 7500Km for the 500Kg payload. And for a 1000Kg payload, it is capable of hitting the 5500Km mark.

But either way, sufficient range is achieved. What we should be aiming for now is mass numbers in the field, not technology demonstrators!

but as usual our media will report it as a 5000 km missile with a 1500 + kg payload


Well, that's good, isn't it? Gives the government plausible deniability if someone accuses them of having deployed ICBMs. They just point to the media and say: "We aren't lying! take a look at what are award winning investigative reporters have said..."

The ones who are really keeping an eye on the Indian Missile developments already know what to expect. That is what we should keep in mind.

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Postby Gerard » 26 Apr 2008 16:42

xpost
Are MIRVs and Satellite Integration and Dispensation Mutually Inclusive?: An Analysis of India’s Capabilities
http://www.cdi.org/PDFs/IndiaMIRV.pdf
April 10, 2008
By Kartik Bommakanti

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Postby ramdas » 27 Apr 2008 10:59

Hope they test Agni III soon. Was supposed to be done on Apr 27. It is ridiculous if they delay the test for Olive Ridley turtles. Then they will say no test in May due to Karnataka elections, and then we have to wait another year for the next test. This is pure madness.

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Postby rohitvats » 27 Apr 2008 11:20

ramdas:
It is ridiculous if they delay the test for Olive Ridley turtles


There is nothing ridiculous baout delaying the launch because of Oliver Riddley turtles. They are as imp as launch of Agni or ay other weapon system. The turtle issue is a sensitive matter and needs to be handled as such.

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Postby ramdas » 27 Apr 2008 11:22

No power serious about a strategic buildup would delay a crucial strategic missile test for something like the turtle issue.

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Postby Shankar » 27 Apr 2008 11:25

No power serious about a strategic buildup would delay a crucial strategic missile test for something like the turtle issue


weel may be not just turtle issue but some thing else like unkil pressure but passd off in the name of the poor turtles

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Postby ramdas » 27 Apr 2008 11:31

That is certainly possible. There should be no restraint in missiletesting under any circumstances. But of course, with MMS and their kind, any reason to stop the test of Agni III would be enough. Any reason to cancel such a program would be enough. After all, MMS has his master to please.

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Postby rohitvats » 27 Apr 2008 11:32

ramdas: please read up about the Oliver ridley turtle issue first, understand the sesitivity involved and please then comment. Heaves will not fall if do not test the missile now.
Question to gurus: Is there an optimum window of launch which conincides with the arrival of trutles?
Thanx

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Postby ramdas » 27 Apr 2008 11:38

Unfortunately there is an optimum launch window around April-May. So, missile testing should get priority over turtle nesting.

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Postby rohitvats » 27 Apr 2008 11:51

The reasons behind the optimum launch window? Thanx

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Postby H.B.Krishna » 27 Apr 2008 23:33

ramdas wrote:Unfortunately there is an optimum launch window around April-May. So, missile testing should get priority over turtle nesting.


I don't understand. In a all out missile warfare with say lizard, will we have to wait until April arrive :roll:

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Postby satya » 28 Apr 2008 00:34

I don't understand. In a all out missile warfare with say lizard, will we have to wait until April arrive


Its for testing only ie when testing various parameters of the missile. Once cleared for operational use , it can be used year round .

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Postby NRao » 28 Apr 2008 03:40

It is not the testing of the missile that hurts the turtles, it is the preparation for the testing, including keeping lights on at night (which is the most injurious) that is bad. They need to overcome that - night lights for sure.

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Postby Katare » 28 Apr 2008 05:02

ramdas wrote:Unfortunately there is an optimum launch window around April-May. So, missile testing should get priority over turtle nesting.


That is simply not correct, both are important issues and a way must be found which reduces impact on poor creatures who have been nesting on those beaches for millions of years.

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Postby vsudhir » 28 Apr 2008 06:47

Katare wrote:
ramdas wrote:Unfortunately there is an optimum launch window around April-May. So, missile testing should get priority over turtle nesting.


That is simply not correct, both are important issues and a way must be found which reduces impact on poor creatures who have been nesting on those beaches for millions of years.


I agree. Killing those turtles, unwittingly hi sahi, is unethical. Desi jugaad genious can surely find some way out.

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Postby Baljeet » 28 Apr 2008 08:47

I am not an expert in Turtle Conservation, here is my question, What does saving little critters have to do with security of a nation. If I know anything about nature, if there is a reasonable number of species survive they will bounce back in given time.
Why is the security and Mil Tech held hostage to the whims of few Johlawalas? Is it because they will loose their prime time on National Geographic or some other Gora Media. Anyone who thinks national security is secondary to some Kachua, kabootar, and anything else <don't kill me..just being sarcastic> needs to read Indian History more closely where Jim Corbett killed thousands of tiger whilst he was a Gora Sahib under Gora Rule.

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Postby shiv » 28 Apr 2008 08:54

Baljeet wrote:I am not an expert in Turtle Conservation, here is my question, What does saving little critters have to do with security of a nation. If I know anything about nature, if there is a reasonable number of species survive they will bounce back in given time.
Why is the security and Mil Tech held hostage to the whims of few Johlawalas? Is it because they will loose their prime time on National Geographic or some other Gora Media. Anyone who thinks national security is secondary to some Kachua, kabootar, and anything else <don't kill me..just being sarcastic> needs to read Indian History more closely where Jim Corbett killed thousands of tiger whilst he was a Gora Sahib under Gora Rule.


Baljeet our dharma will ensure that we will protect those turtles AND test those missiles.

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Postby dini » 28 Apr 2008 09:04

These turtles come to land to breed once a year, and that too for as little as in a period of two weeks. Once they lay their eggs, they get back to the waters. So a delay of a couple of days should be accepted as we have the rest of the year to do the launches.

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Postby Baljeet » 28 Apr 2008 09:12

Shiv
My point is not to become hostage to ancient idea of Sanatan Dharam. It has served its purpose in past well but it is irrelevant in todays time while we are surrounded by stone cold chinese and pathological liars like pakis. Turtles are not going to protect this nation from the salvo of Khali Thali aka Abdali, Gouri < Go Houri> etc. What will save this nation from the pitiful antics of the loser neighbors of ours is solid impregnable defense and kick ass first and ask questions later kinda offense.
I am more peeved at the treatment of Arjun by IA. 2000km Test in Pokhran it worked good. This is the range from Shakkargarh to approx close to Iran border. Is IA planning to drive the entire Armored Brigade to Iran or join up with US Army in Iraq? Pun Intended. WTH?

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Postby sauravjha » 28 Apr 2008 11:27

It has served its purpose in past well but it is irrelevant in todays time while we are surrounded by stone cold chinese and pathological liars like pakis.


Baljeet,
that statement is rather over arching , don't you think?. Sanatan dharma doesn't necessarily imply any of the following.

1.show forgiveness when it is not required .
2. be unwise.
3. let your enemies get ahead of you.

if you care to expand on why sanatan dharma leads us to become docile and take seemingly unwise policy decisions , I would request you to reply in the non-western worldview thread. I would be happy to discuss the issue with you there.

oh yes, Sanatan dharma is an eternal idea , not an ancient one.
Regards
Saurav

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Postby ramana » 28 Apr 2008 20:56

rohitvats wrote:The reasons behind the optimum launch window? Thanx


Its the onset of the monsoon- Ref Wings of Fire.

Maybe the turtles nesting period also coincdes with that time frame ? Also DRDO should start thinking of testing window frm February right after the NW Monsoon is over and not wait for April window.

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Postby ramdas » 28 Apr 2008 23:10

There seems to be a cyclone in the Bay of Bengal. It was there since Apr 27, certainly covered the Andamans. Maybe this does not affect the missile, but might make a complete observation difficult. So, that could be why the test did not happen on Apr 27. Still, I believe that missile testing should get priority over turtle protection if the two causes unfortunately clash.

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Postby ManuJ » 28 Apr 2008 23:32

Baljeet wrote:needs to read Indian History more closely where Jim Corbett killed thousands of tiger whilst he was a Gora Sahib under Gora Rule.


Baljeet, can you please tell me where you read this interesting fact? I know of Corbett killing big cats, many of them man-eaters, but thousands?!


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