Small Arms Thread

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Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby Indrajit » 15 Mar 2014 19:31

Pechneg 8)

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Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby jamwal » 21 Mar 2014 22:08

North Korean gun with helical magazine:
Image

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Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby Gerard » 21 Apr 2014 16:57


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Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby rkhanna » 22 Apr 2014 11:07

The Ukranian Uniforms dont seem too bad either. Ofcourse not as widespread across the forces as the Russians ones...

Image

Ukranian SF (i believe)

Image

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Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby SaiK » 26 Apr 2014 02:50

from wiki: India: M4A1s as part of a 2008 Foreign Military Sales.[61] M4A1 is used by the Mizoram Armed Police, and Force One of the Mumbai Police.[78][79]

Do we know how many M4s we have?

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Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby ArmenT » 26 Apr 2014 08:46

SaiK wrote:from wiki: India: M4A1s as part of a 2008 Foreign Military Sales.[61] M4A1 is used by the Mizoram Armed Police, and Force One of the Mumbai Police.[78][79]

Do we know how many M4s we have?

They aren't the only users of M4s in India. Indian army also bought some and they've been in use for some time:
http://forums.bharat-rakshak.com/viewtopic.php?p=1447011#p1447011
http://forums.bharat-rakshak.com/viewtopic.php?p=1500950#p1500950

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Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby Gerard » 04 Jul 2014 01:37


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Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby vic » 04 Jul 2014 10:11

Technically DRDO MCIWS is the best assault rifle and carbine in the world but it comes without side dish of dollars and dollies.

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Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby RSoami » 07 Jul 2014 12:27

Why cant they just buy 200,000 AK 47s. Special forces can have their own weapons.
AKs come dirt cheap and are the preferred choice of every infantry soldier.
And then they wouldnt be able to complain again either.

Amazing.

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Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby deejay » 07 Jul 2014 13:59

RSoami wrote:Why cant they just buy 200,000 AK 47s. Special forces can have their own weapons.
AKs come dirt cheap and are the preferred choice of every infantry soldier.
And then they wouldnt be able to complain again either.

Amazing.


Who won't be able to complain again?

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Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby Aditya_V » 07 Jul 2014 15:27

RSoami wrote:Why cant they just buy 200,000 AK 47s. Special forces can have their own weapons.
AKs come dirt cheap and are the preferred choice of every infantry soldier.
And then they wouldnt be able to complain again either.

Amazing.


well the 7.62*39 bullet is good for coin, it tends to drop and not very accurate above 100 meters.

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Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby RSoami » 11 Jul 2014 14:02

Those who are complainng against INSAS. They cant possibly complain against AKs.
I was talking to some army friends of mine and they all swear by the AKs. Noone wants anything else. And last time India bought about a 100,000 AKs from Bulgaria for only around a 100$ piece.
So I was only wondering, why the army wants Beretta or colt or any other rifle now.

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Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby jamwal » 16 Jul 2014 22:33

Image

INSAS with scope ?

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Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby Mihir » 17 Jul 2014 01:52


Rahul Bedi being Rahul Bedi, as usual. Dafuq is a "Baretta"? Or "the U.S. Colt"?

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Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby krishnan » 18 Jul 2014 12:35

http://www.bharat-rakshak.com/MONITOR/I ... scope1.jpg

there is a pic of insas with day scope posted here on BR, so why surprised

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Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby K Mehta » 18 Jul 2014 17:26

What are the major advantages and disadvantages that multi caliber rifles offer?
Have any of our adversaries or for that matter any country in the world inducted multi caliber rifles as their main battle weapon for their infantry (not special forces)?
IS this requirement futuristic or is it unnecessary brochuritis?

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Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby RoyG » 18 Jul 2014 20:12

Unnecessary brochuritis. It was a popular idea in the states at one point and just fell off the radar.

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Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby abhik » 18 Jul 2014 20:43

We should simply clone the AK, russian concerns be dammed. There are probably dozens of manufacturers around the world who have ripped off the design without paying them a dime.

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Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby RoyG » 18 Jul 2014 20:46

abhik wrote:We should simply clone the AK, russian concerns be dammed. There are probably dozens of manufacturers around the world who have ripped off the design without paying them a dime.


We are a very honest and idealistic people. It's not in our blood.

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Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby ArmenT » 20 Jul 2014 04:57

RoyG wrote:
abhik wrote:We should simply clone the AK, russian concerns be dammed. There are probably dozens of manufacturers around the world who have ripped off the design without paying them a dime.


We are a very honest and idealistic people. It's not in our blood.

Every country makes whatever they can get away with. India had no qualms with manufacturing the A1 rifle, which is an unauthorized FN-FAL clone, so the idealism and honesty bit doesn't apply.

Of all the dozens of manufacturers that have ripped off the AK design, there are only a few that actually produce something usable and exportable. It isn't that easy to set up a decent AK production line, otherwise everyone would have done it long ago. Sure, you have your khyber-pass variant, but given the choice of using that vs. a decent factory-made AK (e.g. chinese, albanian, bulgarian etc.), guess what -- people tend to prefer the factory models. Mainly because the factory models are way more reliable and sturdy than the rip-off versions.

Of all the countries that currently manufacture decent AKs, almost every one of them has had the technology gifted to them by the Soviets, either first-hand or second-hand (via the Chinese). Forget the idealistic bit, even non-idealistic people can't manufacture decent copies by themselves that easily.

Also, OFB used to manufacture the A7 clone of the AKM and guess what? It was rejected by the IA for various issues, well before Mikhail Kalashnikov raised any objections about illegal copies. Since IA wouldn't accept them, a few of them were passed off to certain state police forces, but they aren't exactly singing praises of the OFB model either.

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Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby NRao » 20 Jul 2014 05:19

We should simply clone the AK, russian concerns be dammed.


even then, is the AK the very best India has to offer? Nothing better?

We are a very honest and idealistic people. It's not in our blood


Hmmmmmmmmmm..

In 1980 India had a 1-1 underground economy. Recently an unscientific survey seemed to suggest a 1-3, with over.

I think when it comes to outsiders that is true.

Besides India seems to be rather high on the corruption index.

?????

However, I am very confident that India can produce anything - if they want to. No need to clone anything. IMHO.

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Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby Viv S » 20 Jul 2014 15:48

With regard to the 7.62 x 39 round, no force specializing in COIN or CQB has retained it given a choice. The SF & Marcos employ Tavors, the NSG uses SiG-552 and the SPG employs the F2000. All chambered for 5.56 x 45 mm.

Were the multi-calibre requirement was for a 7.62x51 option that would still have made sense, allowing the rifle to have a sharpshooter variant and sharing ammo with LMGs.

The MCIWS is perfectly fine for the IA's requirements, all it needs is the MoD to put its foot down (assuming it can emerge from its decade long stupor).

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Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby vic » 20 Jul 2014 17:28

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/city/nagpur/Ordnance-Factory-Board-plans-to-try-out-3-desi-AKs/articleshow/35420220.cms

NAGPUR: The Ordnance Factory Board (OFB), which has been trying since last seven years to develop an indigenous assault rifle to rival the famous AK-47, will put to test three versions of the weapon made by three different factories. The trials are planned to be held between May 27 to 29. The weapons include a close replica of the original AK-47 developed by small arms factory Kanpur, one made by Rifle Factory Ishapore in West Bengal, and the Tirichi Assault Rifle (TAR) from the ordnance factory at Tiruchirapalli.

Since 2008, OFB has been trying its hand at making an assault rifle but the project could not succeed. Much hope was pinned on the TAR, since it worked on a different mechanism as compared to the original AK-47, and could also achieve a faster rate of fire. However, after initial development, the project had taken a backseat, with not more than five rifles produced. On being revived last year, the rifle still had some glitches in the trials held in January.

There were plans to make at least 15 pieces for the May trials, but now only three are ready. It is hoped more rifles will be made soon. In the meantime, the board has directed the other factories to come up with their own versions for the May trials.

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Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby abhik » 20 Jul 2014 18:38

They made a copy of the AK and a SLR chambered for 7.62x39, wonder why they didn't try a 5.62x39 INSAS?

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Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby Leo.Davidson » 21 Jul 2014 05:15

Shouldn't we be getting the best weapons for our soldiers. The AK-47 was only enigmatic in the hands of the freedom fighters (aka terrorists). Their time in the hands of the military is long gone. The AK-47 was and is, a cheap sheet metal made and cost effective shotgun effect automatic. What shotgun effect means is that the recoil of this gun is so much that in effect you are spraying 10 times your target width with bullets. Putting a scope on an AK-47 is termed as an oxymoron.
Then,you have the INSAS a 5.56 copy of the AK-47 with minor updates. How long did you expect this gun would be worth it's weight in gold, it came and went in a blink of an eye. Same sheet metal crap, similar deficiencies, but the ignorants are still beating it's drum.
The Indian soldiers need a reliable and state of art gun, not some cheap gun or copy of one. If you have any respect for these brave men, you'd get the best gun out there, not some dumb DRDO experiment.
JAI HIND.

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Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby ArmenT » 21 Jul 2014 09:08

abhik wrote:They made a copy of the AK and a SLR chambered for 7.62x39, wonder why they didn't try a 5.62x39 INSAS?

INSAS did borrow some features from the AK (long stroke piston and rotating bolt), but also some bits from the FN-FAL that India was using previously (in the form of the 1A SLR). Then again, AK itself borrowed extensively from the M1 Garand :).

However, it must be noted that when it comes to cartridge calibers, India has always standardized with British/NATO ammunition rather than Soviet. The Ishapore built SMLE rifle uses .303 British, the 2A1 rifle and 1A SLR use 7.62x51 mm. NATO ammunition (rather than Soviet 7.62x39 mm. used by AK-47 and AKM) and the INSAS is built to use 5.56x45 mm. NATO (rather than 5.45x39 mm. that the AK-74 uses)

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Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby joygoswami » 26 Jul 2014 22:28

Not sure if this has been posted before. But the INSAS LMG has a low recoil it seems.




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Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby member_26622 » 27 Jul 2014 01:34

Wow Thanks for the video...comparing to people talk on how Ak series seems to go all over town with recoil. This Desi goody looks really sharp and focussed!

(start-sarcasm) Did not see it spill $ bills out so we will be back to ordering the next tranche from Italian motherland (end-sarcasm).

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Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby Victor » 27 Aug 2014 02:44

Russian VKS - 12.7mm (50 cal) bullpup silenced sniper & assault rifle versions :shock:


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Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby Yagnasri » 27 Aug 2014 09:14

Just ask for bids from Indian entities including private entities with a stipulation that they should be 100% manufactured in India. I am sure private sector people will also offer many good options. With 49% FDI small arms sector can take off like anything with a big order for IA.

We also need to equip our police with good side arm. They need not carry huge .303s even in this age. Almost none of the para military forces also carry a sidearm. Even in airports many security people are unarmed and should be provided with a sidearm.

This has to change. A pistol purchased in India cost some two or three lakh rupees or some junk from OFB cost half of than. This is pathetic.

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Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby srai » 27 Aug 2014 10:49

joygoswami wrote:Not sure if this has been posted before. But the INSAS LMG has a low recoil it seems.





Hardly any recoil!

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Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby rkhanna » 05 Sep 2014 16:36

Hi question for Guru's..


Growing up while getting my Shooting Merit Badge (Boy Scouts) we got trained by US Mil trainers at Yakota in Japan. This is the stance we used for long guns

Butt tucked against shoulder. Elbows bent and loose to handle recoil and make you a more stable base while shooting (center of gravity)

Image


Now a days a couple of documentaries and shooting videos on Youtube i see this position gain alot of popularity.

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-4yZF7x-ku8M/TzaK8qghUbI/AAAAAAAAADQ/1TDajdaKCwU/s1600/DSC_0356.JPG



Anybody here with shooting experience to give their opinions? this seems alot harder.. the shooter will get tired faster holding his hand out like that.

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Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby krishnan » 05 Sep 2014 16:50

i saw that in CW games too, esp the english guy

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Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby Haresh » 05 Sep 2014 17:31

rkhanna,

It depends on the sort of shooting you are doing.
When I was a reservist, we were taught two ways.

1/ target shooting
2/ shooting in an actual firefight.

1/ target shooting

yes you would get very tired holding the weapon like that. We used to use the 7.62 SLR, which is alot heavier than 5.56 mm weapons.

Alot of our fitness training involved strength and endurance to handle the weight of the weapon.

A shooter in situation 2 would only have the weapon held like that if contact was expected or you were about to engage. You wouldn't walk around with it like that. The weapon would be lowered to about 45 degrees.

I never actually saw any active service and I am sure that there is some one on BR who has, who may have more imput.

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Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby Thakur_B » 22 Sep 2014 10:15

abhik wrote:There is also the huge Police/Paramilitary market especially the Pistol/SMG category. The Home ministry recently bought a staggering 30,000+ guns(some report the figure at 60K+) from Beretta MX4 via direct import. The DRDO should stop wasting time with the Joint venture carbine (or whatever it is called) and just design a simple, cost-effective and reliable 9mm pistol and SMG/Carbine.


MCMC/JVPC/Milaap has been made as per army's requirement for a compact gun that can protective vests and such at a reasonable range, something not possible with a 9 mm, something like SAAB CBJ-MS and Fn P-90. Hopefully they come up with a pistol in the 5.56 MINSAS caliber so as to not complicate the ammunition logistics chain.

Anyhow coming back to the topic, MSMC is going back for another round of user trials, hopefully the final one, with ARDE calling out a tender for assorted MSMC parts in July.

As it is the Army does not seem to be interested with any guns from the DRDO. might at least try to capture some of the Police/Paramilitary market.


Army never purchases from DRDO, it buys from OFB which had an absolute monopoly till date. But now OFB has started to get some competition from other, and I might say better, PSUs. Bharat Dynamics already manufactures pistols for police and paramilitary and HMT too is trying to get a leg up in small arms market. At this stage, the jingos will accept anything that challenges OFB monopoly and I'd rather have the other two manufacture MCIWS than OFB.

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Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby srai » 23 Sep 2014 21:04

^^^

OFB factories should also be made to compete amongst themselves for orders. Out of a bunch of competing factories couple of the best performing (or ones with the best proposal) should be selected. Provisions should also be made to switch to a third/fourth-finalist factory if the one(s) doing the current order produces below quality products. Similarly, production quantities could also be put into play with the best ones getting a larger share of the contract.

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Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby joygoswami » 25 Sep 2014 10:07

Amogh spotted with Sagar Prahar Bal 8)

Image

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Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby koti » 04 Oct 2014 18:41

Looks like ARX-160 and Ace are the front runners so far.

TFB Link

Look at the comments, I am surprised how many amateur weapons hobbyists are ignorant with things about non western firearms.

I am sure none of them fired an Insas. I actually thought they knew something about what they talk about.

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Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby Thakur_B » 05 Oct 2014 12:18

koti wrote:Looks like ARX-160 and Ace are the front runners so far.


Whoever wins the rifle tender should also win the carbine tender, otherwise it will further muck up the inventory.

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Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby ArmenT » 06 Oct 2014 08:39

koti wrote:Look at the comments, I am surprised how many amateur weapons hobbyists are ignorant with things about non western firearms.

I am sure none of them fired an Insas. I actually thought they knew something about what they talk about.

Have you? Just curious...


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