Small Arms Thread

Gyan
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Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby Gyan » 27 Jan 2015 21:44

So the person who uses terms like "concocted" to deride an indigenous system in face of ample evidence to the contrary is a Gentleman?

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Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby Indranil » 27 Jan 2015 22:03

Nobody is giving character certificates here. And we expect you not to do the same. Please continue to contribute on technical terms.

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Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby vaibhav.n » 28 Jan 2015 02:10

I am sorry but you are denser than Depleted Uranium...........

Gyan wrote:The problem with cell phone typing is that one is sometimes too abrupt.

Get back to your cell phone you aren't any less abrupt with a keyboard.

Gyan wrote:In my earlier posts I meant to say that I reiterate my post about MCIWS. But I do not have time to deal with people who have fixed view about Indian products being sub standard.


If only you had made the effort to read the discussion above. I don't have a problem with Indian products, can't say the same about fibbing.

Gyan wrote:Most of the things which I have said are available online through Google.

Despite all the confo in that post of yours.......

For starters, Find me a single DRDO source on the MCIWS being a quick change barrel.

We can then have a discussion.

Your own statements............

Gyan wrote:DRDO has already come out with MCIWS which is improved copy of HK-416

When inaccuracies are pointed out you claim...........
Gyan wrote:HK416 was constrained by trying to remain close to M16 but MCIWS is free of such constraints


Gyan wrote:So the person who uses terms like "concocted" to deride an indigenous system in face of ample evidence to the contrary is a Gentleman?


Well, the Gentleman actually used terms like "concocted" to deride you sir.
Last edited by vaibhav.n on 28 Jan 2015 02:13, edited 1 time in total.

Indranil
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Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby Indranil » 28 Jan 2015 04:19

^^^ the above posts adds nothing new. Please desist from posting such comments which only add volume to the discussion. It dilutes the discussion and attracts equally useless comments.

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Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby kvraghavaiah » 29 Jan 2015 15:52

[Rant deleted by Moderator. Did you read what a Moderator had written just before your post? - rohitvats]

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Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby rohitvats » 29 Jan 2015 17:42

Gyan wrote:So the person who uses terms like "concocted" to deride an indigenous system in face of ample evidence to the contrary is a Gentleman?


'Gentleman' is a salutation, if you're not aware of the same.

Secondly, his post where he provides contrary POV to your half-baked assertions about an indigenous product does not mean he is 'deriding' product. And making comments like 'information is just Google away' does not amount to 'ample' evidence on the subject. It's you who chose to not debate and present information to support your argument. The fact that you were talking about indigenous product does not automatically mean that whatever you say is the golden word on the subject.

Either debate a topic completely or drop it - don't pass judgement on poster(s).

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Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby Sagar G » 29 Jan 2015 19:53

vaibhav.n wrote:For starters, Find me a single DRDO source on the MCIWS being a quick change barrel.


http://defenceforumindia.com/forum/indian-army/58105-drdo-multical-rifle-unveiled-10.html

Scroll down and you will see one poster talking about quick change barrel for MCIWS. The design will most probably experience changes like MSMC. Is QCB a critical requirement for a modern assault rifle ???

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Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby Gyan » 29 Jan 2015 20:19

There are videos on net, of DRDO demonstrating quick change in Def Expo.

Also it seems that only people who support indigenous products are making half baked posts. Pls pray tell us how many posters supporting indigenous products have been saluted by you as Gentlemen.
Last edited by Indranil on 29 Jan 2015 20:44, edited 1 time in total.
Reason: Stop these rants. Move on.

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Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby Sagar G » 29 Jan 2015 20:33

^^^ Post the video plz.

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Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby Victor » 29 Jan 2015 21:02

Before giving up on INSAS and going in for foreign guns is it possible to hand over the blueprints to an Indian private company like Kalyani to see if it is salvagable? Give them 3 months to make a determination yes or no and fund it. Or are only foreign private companies allowed to make guns for India, not Indian private companies?

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Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby koti » 29 Jan 2015 21:37

Its not just the Quality that needs a finer touch.

Though the operating mechanism is sound, the design itself needs a fresh review: No more handle, Change in cover design to facilitate better zeroing on scope fiddling, more standard rails etc

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Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby vaibhav.n » 29 Jan 2015 22:42

Sagar G wrote:
vaibhav.n wrote:For starters, Find me a single DRDO source on the MCIWS being a quick change barrel.


http://defenceforumindia.com/forum/indian-army/58105-drdo-multical-rifle-unveiled-10.html

Scroll down and you will see one poster talking about quick change barrel for MCIWS. The design will most probably experience changes like MSMC. Is QCB a critical requirement for a modern assault rifle ???


Sagar G,

1. None of the DRDO materials mention a Quick change barrel and there are very good reasons for it. Generally, machine guns carry a QCB due to the inherent role they serve as a base of fire to support the Rifle Group through the assault. As these weapons operate in a sustained fire role, spare barrels with quick change provide its crew an ability to continue fire to avoid them reaching their cook-off point.

But if somebody wants to make assertions there has to be proof to back it up no?? We have all seen the DRDO posters, nowhere does it mention a QCB. Period. I would happy to be corrected.

This is just one of the things this chap claimed, when corrected allegedly his cellphone causes abrupt posts or some disability to fibb. The only thing he got correct was the Multi-Caliber part.

2. My angst against the ARDE has and always will be against the INSAS as a family. They kept the IA hanging without a whimper of protest from the Infantry for more than 20 years!! Try doing this to the politically connected Armoured Corps chaps. The inherent problems have all been fairly well documented on the design and production side. You are free to debate with me on the technical finer points of that.
Last edited by vaibhav.n on 30 Jan 2015 01:19, edited 3 times in total.

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Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby Karan M » 29 Jan 2015 22:45

Vaibhav, why dont you do a writeup of the MCIWS, good, bad, pros, cons etc. Would be good to see. Per my admittedly limited review, it seems to borrow liberally from the M-16 family and might be similar to the 416 in some respects but the operating mechanism is hard to confirm.

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Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby vaibhav.n » 29 Jan 2015 22:54

Karan

TBH that will be highly unfair, we do not know enough of the weapon system. Atleast in open source.

We only know what is envisioned.

:D Besides firearms are like women.

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Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby rkhanna » 30 Jan 2015 00:40

Meanwhile the Pakis have already starting exporting their POF MP-5s to the Civilian markets in America.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EotWXQlkrPU

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Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby Thakur_B » 30 Jan 2015 06:34

For beginners, MCIWS should also focus on cutting length of the barrel without compromising the accuracy. At 905-980 mm it it offers no size advantage over INSAS. 14 inch barrel is the new rifle and 10 inch barrel is the new carbine.

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Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby Austin » 01 Feb 2015 12:34

Close up pics of Ak-12 during trial

http://vk.com/album123450606_204678858

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Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby koti » 06 Feb 2015 06:20

Ak-12 looks like a good improvement to the current Ak-74/10X lines.
It can be a viable candidate to be included along with the contestants undergoing trials. We speak of a powerful Russian lobby in IA, but it seems they are non influential here.

http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2014 ... the-dance/

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Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby rkhanna » 06 Feb 2015 09:55

^^^ IMO its the perfect blend of a modern fire arm with the requirements to fight in a "down and dirty" war. But wonder if a shorten barrelled version is possible for SOF units (can it take a suppressor?)

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Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby Karan M » 06 Feb 2015 10:07

The A-545 has the cool factor though. Can imagine gun nuts in the USA buying it by the bushel if a civvie version is legal

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AEK-971

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Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby Karan M » 06 Feb 2015 10:11

According to experts’ estimates, the Degtyarev assault rifle outstrips AK-12 in terms of the accuracy and fastness of shooting, but the latter is more suitable for massive use, prime cost calculations are also in favour of Kalashnikov.

http://itar-tass.com/en/russia/775321

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Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby Thakur_B » 06 Feb 2015 10:20

koti wrote:Ak-12 looks like a good improvement to the current Ak-74/10X lines.
It can be a viable candidate to be included along with the contestants undergoing trials. We speak of a powerful Russian lobby in IA, but it seems they are non influential here.

http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2014 ... the-dance/


The whole multi caliber rifle and close quarter carbine trials sound like a bit of farce with a lot of firearms makers not participating (Remington/Bushmaster with their ACR, AK-12 and DRDO). I can foresee a reboot of the process due to some very obvious holes in the process.

There is already a multi caliber rifle in Indian service and it is called Tavor (currently available in 5.45x39 sold to vietnam and ukraine, 5.45x30 and 9mm, other calibers to follow). The Israelis are working on a 7.62mm marksman rifle version of Tavor/X95, just like they had developed a custom 5.56x30 mm version (Zittara) that could fire MINSAS rounds. A 7.62x39mm variant of Tavor is also not off the hooks. More about Tavor later.

I don't see any problem in choosing a foreign rifle, heck even countries with long history of making firearms like UK and France are going for foreign designs. My grudge is that there is no method to the madness in the whole small arms procurement amongst forces, neither in MoD, nor in MHA. The airforce is going for its own independent INSAS replacement program. Indian Reserve battalions are buying M4 carbines by truckloads for no apparent reason even when INSAS should suffice for them.

Arnab Goswami mode on/

India needs a small arms commission to standardise arms and training accros services !!

/Arnab Goswami mode off.

ARDE has developed 5.56x30 mm sub machine carbine to replace 9mm sterlings and eventually older MP5s, based on user requirements as the 5.56x30 can defeat body armour better than 9 mm. In all likelihood they are going to build 2-4 lac of them for police, army and paramilitary. Good. The whole idea behind sub machine guns is to use the same ammunition as handguns, but army wants new 9mm handguns instead of standardising on 5.56x30.

Look at the small arms IA wants to induct:

Insas and AKM replacement: Trials in progress
5.56x45 mm - Multi caliber rifle, available in 7.62x39 as well.
5.56x45 mm - Close quarter carbine

Sterling carbine replacement: Trials in progress
5.56x30 mm - MSMC/JVPC/Milaap

Browning Hi- power replacement: RFI out for 9mm handguns.

INSAS LMG andd Bren LMG replacement: RFI awaited.
LMG in 7.62x51

Dragunov SVD replacement: RFI awaited

Mag and PKM replacement: RFI expected soon.

New .50 cal HMGs to replace NSV: RFI put out in 2010 and 2014.

Anti material rifle : RFI out.

Like every procurement the country has done, the new weapons will not replace the older ones and the old ones shall persist, if not in armed forces then in police forces.

Coming back to Tavor, if Zittara/Tavor is made the standard rifle carbine combo, it right away replaces SVD, FAL, INSAS, AKM, Sterling and older MP5. And it is already in service. And we have the license rights.
http://ofbindia.gov.in/products/data/weapons/wsc/25.htm
It is no more expensive than the rifles we are going to buy and replaced 5 guns at the minimum. It also gives commonality for the buyers who might want to change to 5.56x30 mm handguns (if one is made) at a latter date.

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Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby jamwal » 17 Feb 2015 22:22

A Look at How Helical Magazines Work.
https://imgur.com/a/uFGzs

[img]https://i.imgur.com/PAfgGgz.jpg
Helical magazines have been used in firearms as early as 1873 with the Evans Repeating rifle.
The Evans could hold 34 rounds of .44 Evans Short (later versions held 28 rounds of .44 Evans Long) in a single stacked helical magazine in the stock. The magazine separator is driven by cycling the lever action.

Helical magazines are probably best known from the Calico series of carbines and submachineguns (with magazines holding between 50 and 100 rounds of .22LR or 9mm) and the Russian PP-19 Bizon (holding 64 rounds in 9x18mm, 53 rounds in 9x19mm, or 45 rounds in 7.62x25mm)

The Chinese Chang Feng submachinegun holds 50 rounds of 9mm, and the compact Hungarian VD-01 holds 33 rounds.
Photos of North Korean Type88 rifles with helical magazines have also surfaced. The magazine capacity is unknown, but estimated to be around 100 rounds.

Helical magazines all have different designs, but their principles are more or less the same, and they all have one thing in common: High capacity in a compact package.

But how do they work? Lets have a look:

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Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby pankajs » 18 Feb 2015 13:57

Saurav Jha ‏@SJha1618 39m39 minutes ago

Anyway there is good news on the indigenous rifles front. Over 10000 OFB Excaliburs have already been supplied to MHA & some MOD users.

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Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby pankajs » 18 Feb 2015 19:59

Saurav Jha ‏@SJha1618 1m1 minute ago

Here's the Ghatak desi 7.62 mm AKM that is a successor to the Trichy Assault Rifle. Note the picatinny rails.
Image

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Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby Sagar G » 18 Feb 2015 21:17

Series of tweets by Saurav Jha regarding small arms scenario

Saurav Jha @SJha1618 · 8h 8 hours ago

Remember the 5.56 X 30 Amogh over 5000 of those rifles have also been supplied. Much bigger orders can be had if ammo supply is sorted out.


Saurav Jha @SJha1618 · 8h 8 hours ago

More importantly an order for 3000 units of the new 'Ghaatak', Indian 'developed' 7.62 x 39 mm AKM is under process.


Saurav Jha @SJha1618 · 54m 54 minutes ago

Excalibur Mk-II weighing 3.6 kgs will be unveiled soon by OFB. Will sport picatinny rails etc.


Saurav Jha @SJha1618 · 51m 51 minutes ago

The Indian Army's own infantry school had cleared the Excalibur as an INSAS replacement way back in 2005.


Saurav Jha @SJha1618 · 50m 50 minutes ago

BTW the Beretta MX-4s with the BSF are giving a huge amount of trouble.


With no more genocide money to fund development no wonder European nations are starting to fall back one by one. This data also destroys the myth about furreign engineering being superior and spotless.

Saurav Jha @SJha1618 · 49m 49 minutes ago

The Indian Coast Guard has emerged as a major buyer of the Amogh 5.56 x 30 mm carbine.


Saurav Jha @SJha1618 · 48m 48 minutes ago

Importantly DRDO's ARDE laboratory is currently developing an indigenous 7.62 x 51 mm light machine gun.


Saurav Jha @SJha1618 · 48m 48 minutes ago

Huge production improvements are being made on the Excalibur with a Mk-3 being closer to 3 kgs in weight.


Saurav Jha @SJha1618 · 45m 45 minutes ago

Even OFB is now pushing for comparative trials between the Excalibur and foreign 5.56mm rifles. :lol:

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Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby vaibhav.n » 20 Feb 2015 22:22

Actually, his numbers are pretty off.

Probably asked the wrong dude, cause by OFB's own projection they will manufacture more than 33,000 Ghatak AK variants in the next two years. The total order is for 50,000 7.62*39mm AK rifles under Phase 1.

BTW, Ghatak isn't even a successor to the Trichy in the strictest sense.

OFB held a small competition between RFI, SAF and OFT. In the end, the RFI design won and would be solely manufactured by them.

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Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby RoyG » 21 Feb 2015 00:10

I'm really interested in this 7.62 X 51 light machine gun. I'm hoping that the private industry will jump in soon and start competing. They are already steadily making their way into the defense sector.

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Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby Thakur_B » 27 Mar 2015 17:51

Image
ARDE-OFB's UBGL on AKM. ARDE should reduce the size and weight of the UBGL in a mk2 version. It's too big and chifts the center of gravity far away from hands.

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Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby Gyan » 27 Mar 2015 18:23

Due to weight specification of 3kg; my guess is that Excaliber Mk-3 is offshoot of MCIWS

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Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby Thakur_B » 26 Apr 2015 15:57

Image
ARDE's cornershot like weapon mount.

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Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby Thakur_B » 26 Apr 2015 16:15

ARDE-OFB's UBGL has started to show up more and more.
Image

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Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby Thakur_B » 26 Apr 2015 16:17

https://youtu.be/Qe9hOHbU1SA

Small arms training system based on N waves, Dhvani.

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Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby LakshO » 26 Apr 2015 16:26

Gurulog,

:?: In the picture below, what is the pipe/tube that seems to go from the weapon to the bullet proof jacket? Or, is it going from the soldier's waist to the chest?

Thanks for the reply!
Thakur_B wrote:ARDE-OFB's UBGL has started to show up more and more.
Image

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Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby Thakur_B » 26 Apr 2015 16:35

LakshO wrote:Gurulog,

:?: In the picture below, what is the pipe/tube that seems to go from the weapon to the bullet proof jacket? Or, is it going from the soldier's waist to the chest?

Thanks for the reply!
Thakur_B wrote:ARDE-OFB's UBGL has started to show up more and more.
Image


All i can see is the folding stock.

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Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby ArmenT » 26 Apr 2015 17:03

LakshO wrote:Gurulog,

:?: In the picture below, what is the pipe/tube that seems to go from the weapon to the bullet proof jacket? Or, is it going from the soldier's waist to the chest?

Thanks for the reply!

That's a wire folding stock.

Thakur_B
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Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby Thakur_B » 26 Apr 2015 17:09

RoyG wrote:I'm really interested in this 7.62 X 51 light machine gun. I'm hoping that the private industry will jump in soon and start competing. They are already steadily making their way into the defense sector.


Some private companies already have small arms manufacturing licences. They have put in near zero efforts till date.

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Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby abhik » 26 Apr 2015 21:33

BTW how exactly is the UBGL triggered?

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Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby Thakur_B » 26 Apr 2015 23:26

abhik wrote:BTW how exactly is the UBGL triggered?


Image
Two buttons. Trigger is one that looks like safety but its just trigger guard for the button. The one in the front is barrel release latch.

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Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby Karthik S » 27 Apr 2015 06:26

Could someone please tell me why not all of all of them have the UBGL? Like in above pic only 1 solider has it.


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