Small Arms Thread

Akshay Kapoor · Post by **Akshay Kapoor** » 16 Oct 2016 20:33

Ammunition factory Khadki I have been to many times first a small child in mid 80s and then I'm late 90s and a couple of years ago. Things have gone from bad to worse or maybe average to bad to worse. It's a microcosm of what has gone wrong in bureaucracy in last 3/4 decades.

senior management behave like old Zamindars.

Akshay Kapoor · Post by **Akshay Kapoor** » 16 Oct 2016 20:58

Gyan wrote:Govt allocated 400 crores in 2012 to complete large caliber weapon manufacturing units in OFB by 2015. The status in 2015 was 80% of even the Civil works (buildings) had not even reached tender stage. While Kalyani with full plant is sitting with no work.

This is the story everywhere.

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 16 Oct 2016 21:04

Akshay Kapoor wrote:Ammunition factory Khadki I have been to many times first a small child in mid 80s and then I'm late 90s and a couple of years ago. Things have gone from bad to worse or maybe average to bad to worse. It's a microcosm of what has gone wrong in bureaucracy in last 3/4 decades.

senior management behave like old Zamindars.

The only time in my life I have seen a mushroom cloud was in the 60s as a schoolboy when there was a loud earth rattling boom - and I climbed up to the terrace of our house in Pimpri - about 3 km from Khadki and saw a huge Mushroom cloud. 2 tons of explosive had blown up. I doubt if there has been much updating in terms of best practices etc. OFB is totally totally opaque and their order books are always full whether they produce quality or not

abhischekcc · Post by **abhischekcc** » 17 Oct 2016 14:36

Problem in OFBs is the unionization. You cannot force anybody to work on normal times. Everybody wants to work in overtime for the extra money. Hence, normal production time is fly-catching time. And because these guys are in an extremely sensitive industry, it is very difficult to enforce any rule over there.

If Modi Govt is really serious about make in India, then they should issue licences for ammo production to private players and reduce OFB through VRS.

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 17 Oct 2016 16:43

OFB - i stopped reading about them or asking about them, as it is a recipe for clinical depression.
The entire DGQA-OFB apparatus needs thorough overhaul. Much is being spent on modernization. Easier would be to rope in pvt sector in big way. Unlike core R&D, manufacturing capabilities are there in many firms.

Kannan · Post by **Kannan** » 17 Oct 2016 21:32

Akshay Kapoor wrote:That's why priavtisation is so crucial...it will build a constituency within India to champion national security. Not for patriotic reasons but purely commercial ones. If Bharat Forge and Reliance and Mahindra and TCS and Tatas make huge defence production you can be sure they will champion national security causes at political and media level. Unlike Naryan Murthy et all who wnated peace with Pak they will want action - as their manufactured munitions will be used. I spent hours discussing this with some very senior Generals including 2 VCOAS. They were very supportive but IAS lobby is dead against this.

You might be the first person I know who actually wants a military industrial complex so that you can get more war, especially after how well it worked out for the US.

As for crappy ammo, should be pretty easy to fix without so much drama! When there was a huge shortage a few years ago we were stuck reloading our own rounds and it was surprisingly easy to do - it doesn't seem like the most complex process (safety aside) to scale to an industrial process, private or not.

Akshay Kapoor · Post by **Akshay Kapoor** » 17 Oct 2016 23:48

More war ? Sir we have had a defensive defence strategy for decades which has bled us to the extent of about 75 thousand people. Death by a thousand cuts. Why - because our political , babu , diplomatic class and public at large do not understand national security. A MIL will create counter pressure against this criminal stupidity. When a SS Menon will buy Paks nuclear blackmail MIL can counter it , when a Barkha Dutt / Radeep Sardesai forces a criminally anti Indian narrative the MIL can put their weight behind a counter narrative. When a MMS says some people in Paki informs came into our side of LC a Baba Kalyani or a Ambani can question this. It is desperately needed.

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 18 Oct 2016 08:46

Kannan wrote: You might be the first person I know who actually wants a military industrial complex so that you can get more war, especially after how well it worked out for the US.

One good reason for wanting more war is that people who think stupid mistakes are being made by India will suddenly change their colours and say that India is protecting her interests as is her genuine right. That worked for America so we must do it too.

brvarsh · Post by **brvarsh** » 18 Oct 2016 11:18

May be off topic but shouldn't India allow some calibers to be manufactured by private Gun manufacturers and pave path to legalize some Munger type illegal industries? What ever governments have done but not able to stop it so why not let them compete.

Gyan · Post by **Gyan** » 18 Oct 2016 11:56

shiv wrote:It suddenly occurs to me that the armies of the whole world, including the Indian army were gripped by a bout of "projection bias" (a variant of cognitive bias) when they all shifted to 5.56 mm. Let me explain that. The reason for the shift was that the 5.56 would wound and not kill. This is where "projection bias" kicks in. In projection bias you think that the other guy thinks like you do. You fail to understand that the other guy could think differently.

Armies across the world bought the argument that "If my mate is wounded, two of us would be needed to carry him. Therefore is an enemy soldier is wounded - they will use up two men to carry him out". This is projection bias that has resulted in huge money spinning by arms company and much loss of life. No one realized that there would be fired up jihadis who would keep coming even when wounded and whose mats would not carry hi away if he was wounded. So the wounding better than lethality argument was wrong from the word "go"

You are right. 5.56 was supposed to be a single round solution to 7.62x51 to 9x19mm. Practical experience proved otherwise. Now we need horses for courses.

Second, 5.56 is deadly if it hits CNS, deadly if it hits any major bone as the fragments of bones and bullets will go shooting through out the body. Hence 5.56 has slightly lower kill rate but higher hit rate vs 7.62 reverse

5.56 and 7.62 are different concepts. Like Comparing cricket ball and laddoo. Both are required and both are available in India.

Gyan · Post by **Gyan** » 18 Oct 2016 11:58

shiv wrote:I don't believe this. Is our army actually putting out shit like this? What's wrong with them?

http://www.janes.com/article/64165/indi ... ault-rifle
The rifle would need to be equipped with indigenously developed 40 mm under-barrel grenade launchers as well as with holographic and assorted multi-option telescopic sights "remaining relevant in design, metallurgy, and performance parameters for 25-30 years", the RfI stated.
From Teetar

Such things can be used to fix tenders, any which way.

Gyan · Post by **Gyan** » 18 Oct 2016 12:04

ArmenT wrote:
shiv wrote:The thing is arms are produced in Darra Adamkhel Arms are produced by OFB. What is the exact difference? What about QC? OK forget QC - where the hell are OFB factories?
Kanpur?
Kolkata
Cochin?
Chennai?
Dantewada?

Kookal tells me small arms is Kanpur

Their web page is rudimentary. I had created a more comprehensive page in 1997. These buggers are pathetic slackers.
I believe Ishapore (RFI - Rifle Factory Ishapore), Kanpur (SAF - Small Arms Factory) and Trichy (OFT - Ordnance Factory Tiruchirappalli) are the three places that they make INSAS and other small arms. Anyone with more info, please feel free to add to the list.

Ammo is also made at Cordite Factory Aruvankadu (CFA) in TN and at Ammunition Factory Khadki (AFK) near Pune.

Cottage industry arms specifications are like :- life 10-100 round. Accuracy 100 MOA . MRBF 10 rounds

OFB RIfle Or LMG:- life 2000 to 100,000 rounds. Accuracy 3-10 MOA. MRBF 100-1000 rounds.

Prem Kumar · Post by **Prem Kumar** » 18 Oct 2016 12:25

War, when used judiciously, is not just good. Its essential. Our great epics which inform our daily lives: Ramayana & Mahabharatha, have several wars - from skirmish level all the way to total-war. Very effective & very much needed to establish Dharma.

Aditya_V · Post by **Aditya_V** » 18 Oct 2016 12:47

Ot-> We talk as if there is peace today, it is not there. From Kashmir to Terror attacks on Indian CIties to North East Insurgencies, fake notes etc. Pakis are at War with India. They will do an invasion the moment they think the condition is favorable. The best way to have long lasting peace is by Having the best security and NO Entity which is constantly threatening us.

For that we need an MIC for our future generations and Split Pakistan with Pakjab completely neutered. We cannot prosper without security.

nachiket · Post by **nachiket** » 21 Oct 2016 04:06

vaibhav.n wrote:Nachiket,

1. The fully automatic INSAS 1C was supposed to replace the 9mm Sterling carbine much like its assault rifle cousin. It never saw the light of day for well known reasons on ARDE's part.

To be honest I've never really understood what role the Sterling carbine played in the IA. How many men in a typical squad would be armed with it? Perhaps it made sense when the main rifle was the single-shot only SLR. But if you have a modern selective-fire rifle, what exactly does the Sterling (or indeed the INSAS carbine) bring to the table? The smaller size would be useful in CQB situations. But I'm more interested in how the IA employed Sterling carbines in regular battle.

This also does not explain the inexplicable choice to go with 20 round magazines. I don't want to unnecessarily criticize the IA, but if there is a good explanation for this, I haven't seen it yet.

nachiket · Post by **nachiket** » 21 Oct 2016 04:16

Secondly, if many of the glaring shortcomings of the INSAS were due to poor manufacturing equipment and total lack of Quality Control that has become the hallmark of the OFB, I am deeply concerned with how we are going to overcome that by replacing the INSAS with a foreign rifle. All the hundred's of thousands of rifles will not be bought off-the-shelf. The govt. will never sign off on that. So a majority of them will be made under license by the OFB itself. Now considering that these new rifles will be even more complex to manufacture (new materials, interchangeable different-calibre barrels etc.), how is the OFB supposed to deal with that, if they can't even manufacture the INSAS to specs?

tsarkar · Post by **tsarkar** » 21 Oct 2016 11:08

vaibhav.n wrote:If you do have a word with a large number of troops especially at OR and JCO level the larger 7.62 Russian round is heavily favoured much more so since their entire combat experience is based on COIN Ops. The survivable chances of an enemy hit with 5.56 is very high.

I have heard horror stories of enemies returning fire for long periods even after being hit on multiple occasions and causing own casualties. This kind of negative impression creates false myths wrt the ammunition. There are more capable 5.56 rounds now available.

Most Pakistani Jehadis are clinically drugged - there are paramedics / doctors on JuD rolls - including ex PA. Wounding is ineffective in such cases. The colonial British used Rum Rations doled out before battles for similar purposes.

ArmenT · Post by **ArmenT** » 21 Oct 2016 12:50

nachiket wrote:This also does not explain the inexplicable choice to go with 20 round magazines. I don't want to unnecessarily criticize the IA, but if there is a good explanation for this, I haven't seen it yet.

Tradition perhaps, since the SLR used 20 round magazines as well and soldiers were used to it?? The original M16 magazines from the Vietnam era were also 20 round mags, as were the mags of the M14 rifle that preceded the M16.

For M14, FN-FAL and SLR, the 20 round mags made sense, as they use cartridges of larger diameter (NATO 7.62x51 mm.) If the magazine for such cartridges were made to hold more cartridges, then they would become too long and stick out of the bottom of the rifle, which makes it difficult to fire from the prone position. Also, the heavier magazine would need a stronger catch to hold it in place.

Akshay Kapoor · Post by **Akshay Kapoor** » 21 Oct 2016 20:06

Re 9 MM Carbine aka sten gun, it was originally authorised to officers and JCOs as rest of the bayonet strength (troops ready for combat) in an INF battlion carried the 7.62 SLR. MT (Motor Transport) drivers, EME and etc attached to inf also carried it. It's a very versatile and easy to carry and use weapon - with the butt folded it just slinks under the shoulder unlike the SLR. While running this can be an issue as the magazine pokes you.

It was also used a lot in arty, Engrs and armour.

A carbine's main roles are personal protection, CQB and use by supporting echelons. Easy to carry and use, it can be used in closed confines like a cab of a truck. Still very relevant when automatic assault rifles come in. A inf battalion or a Engr Regt or a Arty Regt need a few of these. Note in RR and CI roles officers also carry the AKs as you need max fire power.

Akshay Kapoor · Post by **Akshay Kapoor** » 21 Oct 2016 20:25

34 round mag with 32 usually filled to protect the spring life and its single and auto capabilities it was a great weapon when SLR was used.

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 21 Oct 2016 20:27

Akshay Kapoor wrote:Re 9 MM Carbine aka sten gun, it was originally authorised to officers and JCOs as rest of the bayonet strength (troops ready for combat) in an INF battlion carried the 7.62 SLR. MT (Motor Transport) drivers, EME and etc attached to inf also carried it. It's a very versatile and easy to carry and use weapon - with the butt folded it just slinks under the shoulder unlike the SLR. While running this can be an issue as the magazine pokes you.

It was also used a lot in arty, Engrs and armour.

A carbine's main roles are personal protection, CQB and use by supporting echelons. Easy to carry and use, it can be used in closed confines like a cab of a truck. Still very relevant when automatic assault rifles come in. A inf battalion or a Engr Regt or a Arty Regt need a few of these. Note in RR and CI roles officers also carry the AKs as you need max fire power.

That is excellent insight for a person like me who has not even held a Sten in his hands. But I recall reading somewhere that VIP security sitting in car seats found the Bren awkward and that is why there were demanding Heckler and Koch or some such weapon

Akshay Kapoor · Post by **Akshay Kapoor** » 21 Oct 2016 20:29

Aditya_V wrote:Ot-> We talk as if there is peace today, it is not there. From Kashmir to Terror attacks on Indian CIties to North East Insurgencies, fake notes etc. Pakis are at War with India. They will do an invasion the moment they think the condition is favorable. The best way to have long lasting peace is by Having the best security and NO Entity which is constantly threatening us.

For that we need an MIC for our future generations and Split Pakistan with Pakjab completely neutered. We cannot prosper without security.

+1000000

Akshay Kapoor · Post by **Akshay Kapoor** » 21 Oct 2016 20:32

Shove the curved magazine comes out of the right so in a car it maybe slightly cumbersome (note what I said when about running your BPET it - morning run). But it's no big deal at all. Much loved in the army. Security for VIP think they are vips too !

Manish_P · Post by **Manish_P** » 21 Oct 2016 21:01

Minor nit pick - the 9mm Carbine is the Sterling SMG and not the Sten Gun

Although somewhat similar looking, primarily due to side loading magazines, there are a lot of differences.

The Sterling SMG is very highly rated and has proved to be much more reliable, accurate and effective as compared to the Sten SMG

Sterling SMG

Sten SMG

shiv wrote:
Akshay Kapoor wrote:Re 9 MM Carbine aka sten gun, it was originally authorised to officers and JCOs as rest of the bayonet strength (troops ready for combat) in an INF battlion carried the 7.62 SLR. MT (Motor Transport) drivers, EME and etc attached to inf also carried it. It's a very versatile and easy to carry and use weapon - with the butt folded it just slinks under the shoulder unlike the SLR. While running this can be an issue as the magazine pokes you.

It was also used a lot in arty, Engrs and armour.

A carbine's main roles are personal protection, CQB and use by supporting echelons. Easy to carry and use, it can be used in closed confines like a cab of a truck. Still very relevant when automatic assault rifles come in. A inf battalion or a Engr Regt or a Arty Regt need a few of these. Note in RR and CI roles officers also carry the AKs as you need max fire power.
That is excellent insight for a person like me who has not even held a Sten in his hands. But I recall reading somewhere that VIP security sitting in car seats found the Bren awkward and that is why there were demanding Heckler and Koch or some such weapon

Akshay Kapoor · Post by **Akshay Kapoor** » 21 Oct 2016 21:14

Absolutely right but it is colloquialy called sten sometimes even in the army. It's most common name is just carbine, it's almost never called sterling apart from during training.

But good point. The 'sten' was used by some police forces - Punjab police for sure.

Mihir · Post by **Mihir** » 21 Oct 2016 21:26

nachiket wrote:To be honest I've never really understood what role the Sterling carbine played in the IA. How many men in a typical squad would be armed with it?

It was a self-protection weapon for officers, the primary firearm for commandos (who often could not carry continuously firing suppressive-fire weaponry like LMGs), for use in CQB, and for use by "Shock Troops" (The designation never existed in the IA, but the role certainly did).

Manish_P · Post by **Manish_P** » 21 Oct 2016 21:34

Actually i got to know the difference in a rather hard way

Many years ago when i was a cocky kid growing up on commando magazines, i and my friend came across a stern looking soldier at a railway station in mumbai

Pointing to his weapon i turned to my pal and told him in a loud voice (hoping the soldier would hear and be impressed with my knowledge) "that's a sten gun"

The stoic trooper turned to us, smiled and told me "Baccha yeh sterling smg hai, sten gun nahin"

I have never discussed guns with that pal ever again...

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 21 Oct 2016 21:53

Long ago I recall reading that the 9 mm carbine designed for close in combat is accurate only up to 200 meters or so. Fine in airport halls. The AK 47 is apparently accurate up to 300 meters and INSAS to 400 m or so. Of course when you calculate kinetic energy there is a huge difference between 5.56 mm and 7.62. The .303 I think takes a punch all the way to 500 meters or more

It is not easy to hit a man size target at 100 meters - at least, not without a lot of practice. There was an incident in Bangalore soon after 26/11 when a young lad named Mukarram was doing a wheelie at midnight and was stopped by cops. He dropped his bike and in a seriously bad error of judgement he climbed up the terrace of a nearby house that just happened to be the house of one of the seniormost Army officers in South India, literally days after the Mumbai hotel attacks. He spent several minutes making phone calls there while the guard asked him to come down. But the young man waited for a friend to arrive in a car after which he slithered down and tried to make a run for it. He was shot and died in the car.

I had a funny conversation with an Army officer about this in a club gym. It was funny only because I was huffing and puffing doing a fast walk on a treadmill and he next to me was actually sprinting on his treadmill while talking to me sounding like we were having a beer together. He said that he was surprised that the guard actually hit the guy but because it was the residence of a very senior officer they must have posted "a sentry who knew how to shoot"

vaibhav.n · Post by **vaibhav.n** » 21 Oct 2016 22:17

Nachiket,

Carbines are primarily issued to officers and JCO but also to support troops for whom the use of a full power rifle is not warranted. These included troops in the specialist platoons of an infantry battalion or those in the armoured corps and artillery.

One predominant infantry tactics theory is that, as these weapons had a lesser effective range it restricts the tendency among section/platoon leaders to get into the the initial firefight as their primary role was to command troops in battle. If they died early, they were useless to the troops under them and often assaults got bogged down. However during the final phase of the assault their higher rate of fire was considered very useful to overcome enemy defences.

Akshay Kapoor · Post by **Akshay Kapoor** » 21 Oct 2016 23:30

Manish_P wrote:Actually i got to know the difference in a rather hard way

Many years ago when i was a cocky kid growing up on commando magazines, i and my friend came across a stern looking soldier at a railway station in mumbai

Pointing to his weapon i turned to my pal and told him in a loud voice (hoping the soldier would hear and be impressed with my knowledge) "that's a sten gun"

The stoic trooper turned to us, smiled and told me "Baccha yeh sterling smg hai, sten gun nahin"

I have never discussed guns with that pal ever again...

Well remembered

nachiket · Post by **nachiket** » 21 Oct 2016 23:46

vaibhav.n wrote:Nachiket,

Carbines are primarily issued to officers and JCO but also to support troops for whom the use of a full power rifle is not warranted. These included troops in the specialist platoons of an infantry battalion or those in the armoured corps and artillery.
<snip>
. However during the final phase of the assault their higher rate of fire was considered very useful to overcome enemy defences.

Thanks Vaibhav and Akshay Kapoor saab for your insight. I understand that Officers and JCO's usually carried the Sterling and would have carried the INSAS Carbine had it been successful. But that still does not seem a good enough reason to forego full-auto mode and 30 round mags on the assault-rifle version which most of the troops would be armed with. Also in COIN ops the soldiers would be facing differing scenarios in different kinds of firefights or perhaps during the same one. CQB or longer ranges, need to lay down full-auto cover-fire or more accurate single shots. No wonder they like the Ak-47. Given an option they will definitely pick it over a Sterling or even an INSAS carbine had it existed. Now if the regular INSAS rifle came with full-auto mode and std. 30 round magazines, would they still not like it? (not considering the issues with QC and ammo bursting etc.)
That is why I think these two decisions by the Army turned out to be howlers.

I believe there is a folding butt version of the INSAS available for Paras etc. Maybe that could have replaced the Sterling when it became clear that the carbine wasn't going to make it. Could have been better than the Carbine too in some scenarios.

One predominant infantry tactics theory is that, as these weapons had a lesser effective range it restricts the tendency among section/platoon leaders to get into the the initial firefight as their primary role was to command troops in battle. If they died early, they were useless to the troops under them and often assaults got bogged down

Wow, I never knew that. It makes sense, but if the officer feels that he is needed in the firefight nonetheless or feels that his troops are bogged down/need inspiration and he needs to lead from the front, he's going to get into the firefight regardless of what weapon he is carrying. And then the Sterling puts him at a huge disadvantage in most situations.

What do officers carry these days? Has the Sterling been phased out and everyone given an INSAS or AK?

Akshay Kapoor · Post by **Akshay Kapoor** » 22 Oct 2016 03:20

Nachiket,

I'm not sure it was the army's decision for a 20 round mag. I really have no insight into it but the stories we heard in the unit was that 30 round mag (remember carbine is 34 rounds with 32 filled) was not possible for INSAS. Full auto would have been fine but again the one or two snippets I heard were that it wasnt possible to get accuracy in auto at design level. However I don't have any more insight or any connections to ARDE so cannot comment. There must have been a good reason. There was definitely positivity when INSAS came in. Demo versions did quite well. It was the production versions that were a huge disappointment.

The bigger problem was that INSAS would fire in auto when it was supposed to fire in bursts and the mags cracked. In Combat use full auto rapidly depletes your ammo so it is used very carefully. Basically use long bursts when you want to overwhelm the enemy, covering fire and have no ammunition limitations. Section support weapons like LMGs are anyway auto.

Fire discipline is one thing that is drummed into Indian officers and troops. The credo is 'ek goli ek dushman' an excellent credo. This has stood us in good stead right since independence - 65 (tank battles with excellent gunnery against better tanks) , IAF was known for its gunnery, and of course killer squadron in 71...tri service example of training, tactics and gunnery.

Here is my wishlist for a good assault rifle. min 400 mts effective range, 32 round mag, I don't have a strong view on calibre, HIGHLY RELIABLE, HIGHLY ACCURATE, good sights and UBGL. We also need innovation in LMG.

Yes carbines are still used authorised weapon for officers but on the LC and RR almost everyone uses AKs especially in RR and CI Ops. Officers and JCOs will use whatever makes most sense in combat.

nachiket · Post by **nachiket** » 22 Oct 2016 04:31

Akshay Kapoor wrote:Nachiket,

I'm not sure it was the army's decision for a 20 round mag. I really have no insight into it but the stories we heard in the unit was that 30 round mag (remember carbine is 34 rounds with 32 filled) was not possible for INSAS. Full auto would have been fine but again the one or two snippets I heard were that it wasnt possible to get accuracy in auto at design level. However I don't have any more insight or any connections to ARDE so cannot comment. There must have been a good reason.

The LMG version came standard with 30 round magazines. So they were available. It is more probable that it was a case of tradition like ArmenT said.

There was definitely positivity when INSAS came in. Demo versions did quite well. It was the production versions that were a huge disappointment.

Ah, the curse of OFB. They really screwed the pooch on this one. I don't blame the soldiers for not liking the rifle, if the damned thing jammed frequently or the ammo burst in their faces.

The bigger problem was that INSAS would fire in auto when it was supposed to fire in bursts and the mags cracked. In Combat use full auto rapidly depletes your ammo so it is used very carefully. Basically use long bursts when you want to overwhelm the enemy, covering fire and have no ammunition limitations. Section support weapons like LMGs are anyway auto.

What is the distribution of support weapons like Bren, FN MAG etc. in an IA infantry platoon? To a layman like me the prevalence belt-fed weapons like the FN MAG seems much lower in the IA compared to for e.g. the M249 or IMI Negev in their respective armies. Cost issues no doubt.

Fire discipline is one thing that is drummed into Indian officers and troops. The credo is 'ek goli ek dushman' an excellent credo. This has stood us in good stead right since independence - 65 (tank battles with excellent gunnery against better tanks) , IAF was known for its gunnery, and of course killer squadron in 71...tri service example of training, tactics and gunnery.

That has served us extremely well no doubt.

Here is my wishlist for a good assault rifle. min 400 mts effective range, 32 round mag, I don't have a strong view on calibre, HIGHLY RELIABLE, HIGHLY ACCURATE, good sights and UBGL. We also need innovation in LMG.

The newer versions of the INSAS like the Excalibur could fulfill that easily. But OFB would likely mess that up in manufacturing as well. Same goes for any foreign rifle we might make here.
For Bren replacement, I don't know if there is any DRDO program. INSAS LMG didn't really work as expected I guess. Don't know if that was due to design issues or manufacturing defects.

Yes carbines are still used authorised weapon for officers but on the LC and RR almost everyone uses AKs especially in RR and CI Ops. Officers and JCOs will use whatever makes most sense in combat.

Thanks. Most of the images we see these days are all from J&K. And Sterlings are completely absent from them. So I had thought they might have been phased out completely.

Akshay Kapoor · Post by **Akshay Kapoor** » 22 Oct 2016 05:27

MMGs are with support company so rifle coy platoons don't normally have them. Platoon has 3 sections, each with a rifle group and support group - 3-4 LMG per platoon.Normally no belt fed weapons a platoon level. We must look at ways of enhancing infantry firepower without putting additional burden on troops.

Pratyush · Post by **Pratyush** » 22 Oct 2016 06:54

^^^

Since we are in the subject of learning about fire arms. I have one question, in most major armies the platoon has at least one belt fed machine gun. In the Indian army, the bren rules. Why is it so, also, has the Indian Army ever asked for the bren to be replaced by a belt fed machine gun? If not what could be the possible reasons for that?

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 22 Oct 2016 07:24

nachiket wrote: Wow, I never knew that. It makes sense, but if the officer feels that he is needed in the firefight nonetheless or feels that his troops are bogged down/need inspiration and he needs to lead from the front, he's going to get into the firefight regardless of what weapon he is carrying. And then the Sterling puts him at a huge disadvantage in most situations.

I have no practical knowledge of this but I have some book knowledge gleaned after reading 3 books on what makes men shoot or not shoot in battle - starting with a now famous work called "Men Against Fire" by SLA Marshall ("SLAM")

Apparently in most firefights soldiers can't see the enemy. There is fear, smoke and noise and the tendency is to keep one's head down because of all the bullets flying, or shooting blindly emptying off a magazine if the opportunity arises. Nowadays there are a lot of videos showing exactly this from the Levant. Because the enemy is doing pretty much the same thing - shooting blindly wastes ammunition which will then be unavailable if the enemy actually shows up in front of you. So if the officer needs to goad his men - he does not have to shoot . He only has to tell them to shoot or not shoot. Because it is so difficult to hit a man even when he is fairly close - it is apparently best to shoot when the man is close enough to give a good shot. Hence the old cliched order in movies "Don't shoot till you see the whites of their eyes"

There are many stories of officers leading from the front from 1965 and 71 now appearing - will try and locate. Many of them involve senior officers ignoring gunfire and walking unarmed except with a pistol in its holster up to all his men wherever they are positioned and encouraging them - and being unafraid - rather than letting off his own steam by shooting wildly into the distance

Akshay Kapoor · Post by **Akshay Kapoor** » 22 Oct 2016 12:30

Re officer being at a disadvantage with sterling...not really if the enemy also has SLR like weapons and you are engaging him at very close range. Also officer will pretty much use whichever weapon is best for the situation (if we have it). Hence the current search for a new better carbine.

62, 65 and 71 (western sector) stories were more of defensive battles where coy cmdr (eg Hoshiar Singh or Shaitan Singh or evern Somnath Sharma) were moving from place to place in open. Starting with Op Pawan (Sri Lanka) , CI Ops, Kargil it was more assault in restricted spaces and terrain constraints..officer was still leadng and telling troops what to do but more taking part in the assault too. Our already high officer/men casualty ratio became even higher.

I suggest reading PVC citations of Maj Somnath Sharma, Maj Shaitan Singh and Maj Hoshiar Singh, then read citations of Maj Ramaswamy Parmeswaran and Capt Vikram Batra and Cpat Manoj Pandey. Also read Capt GS Salaria (Congo). You will get a good idea of the differnt kinds of ops.

Lastly see this for a first hand view of leadership under fire and also Capt Manoj Pandey from his CO's eyes...https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J1rIkwAoZGg

Akshay Kapoor · Post by **Akshay Kapoor** » 22 Oct 2016 12:59

Re belt fed LMGs at platoon level, I personally feel that in the current environment our support weapons are inadequate. They were adequate till 80s but as time passed they have become increasingly inadequate and some studies by the army have pointed this out. But who cares....

When the standard assault rifle is single shot or burst capability a fully auto LMG with almost double the range offers a reasonable capability but in the current scenario it does not so more innovation is needed. The first thing is what calibre round...I would say 7.62 is better as the object is to get suppresive and cover fire. But then what happens to commonality with the standard assault rifle if that is 5.56 ? Maybe base the assult rifle on 7.62 as well and innovate on weight ?

Any way an ideal LMG should take the standard 30 round box max but also have 50 or 100 round magazine and also be capable of being belt fed. Weight should not be more than 4 -4.5 kgs, range 750 mt, HIGHLY RELIABLE and ACCURRATE.

Also a light weight Rocket launcher should be developed so that 1 can be carried at section level so that each platoon has 3-4 of them. I firmly believe that whoever has more firepower in initial engagement has a massive advantage...especially with pakis...they will run if you open first with overhwleming fire.

vaibhav.n · Post by **vaibhav.n** » 22 Oct 2016 14:24

nachiket wrote:Wow, I never knew that. It makes sense, but if the officer feels that he is needed in the firefight nonetheless or feels that his troops are bogged down/need inspiration and he needs to lead from the front, he's going to get into the firefight regardless of what weapon he is carrying. And then the Sterling puts him at a huge disadvantage in most situations.

Fair Point

The basic idea is that the section/platoon commanders would get into the fight once the assault has begun and he has positioned his sub-units for the final attack. He will also be in touch with mortar/artillery observers to bring fire onto enemy positions which could threaten his assault. At that point of time his leading sections would have already closed to within a couple of hundred metres of enemy positions. Once a break has been achieved the infantry leaders would then lead troops to destroy the local enemy defences in the depth. He may also decide to deploy his echelon/reserves to press on or protect a vulnerable flank.

At that stage in combat and those short ranges an automatic weapon can be a big advantage to overwhelm the enemy.

Look the fact of matter is there are and will always be variables in combat. ie terrain, enemy concentrations etc. The old infantry adage is No plan survives first contact with the enemy. It is thus incumbent upon the section/platoon commanders to be available for troops under their command through all phases of combat from preparation to consolidation.

If i may blow my own trumpet, here is the TOE for an infantry battalion that we contributed for the BR IA page.

http://www.bharat-rakshak.com/ARMY/unit ... alion.html

nachiket wrote:What do officers carry these days? Has the Sterling been phased out and everyone given an INSAS or AK?

AFAIK, Officers are now issued INSAS rifles as an interim measure.

Aditya G · Post by **Aditya G** » 22 Oct 2016 14:26

Regarding carbine;

There seem to be 2-3 models floating about:

- amogh (ICG)
- MX-9 (with BSF with poor reviews)
- zittara (CRPF)

None of these have found favour with the army?

Then there are PDWs like P90 with SPG and Uzi with special forces.