Small Arms Thread

ks_sachin
BRFite
Posts: 984
Joined: 24 Jun 2000 11:31
Location: Sydney

Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby ks_sachin » 29 Jan 2019 08:41

Sourav --

94 + 350 means for me that it is not actually a carbine but an assault rifle..

Carbines in this day and age are a useless designtion especially for non-special forces.

souravB
BRFite
Posts: 527
Joined: 07 Jun 2018 13:52

Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby souravB » 29 Jan 2019 09:52

Yep.. anything upwards of 14" barrel would be an assault rifle.
Carbines fulfill a very niche role which IMO reg inf is not the candidate for.

Thakur_B
BRFite
Posts: 1422
Joined: 11 Aug 2016 06:14

Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby Thakur_B » 29 Jan 2019 15:52

Sourav ji, Khan Chacha buys M4 carbines for $800. Current contracts are with Fn and Remington IIRC.

ks_sachin
BRFite
Posts: 984
Joined: 24 Jun 2000 11:31
Location: Sydney

Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby ks_sachin » 29 Jan 2019 17:03

Thakur_B wrote:Sourav ji, Khan Chacha buys M4 carbines for $800. Current contracts are with Fn and Remington IIRC.

FN it is Thakurji.

souravB
BRFite
Posts: 527
Joined: 07 Jun 2018 13:52

Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby souravB » 29 Jan 2019 19:30

Thakur_B wrote:Sourav ji, Khan Chacha buys M4 carbines for $800. Current contracts are with Fn and Remington IIRC.

Thakur sahab, no.. the contract is for arming a battalion of marines for a trial run with H&K416 as Infantry Assault Rifle or IAR as colloquially known.
There is a strong opinion in USMC for 416 as IAR instead of M4 and hence the contract as trial run.

ks_sachin
BRFite
Posts: 984
Joined: 24 Jun 2000 11:31
Location: Sydney

Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby ks_sachin » 30 Jan 2019 01:30

souravB wrote:
Thakur_B wrote:Sourav ji, Khan Chacha buys M4 carbines for $800. Current contracts are with Fn and Remington IIRC.

Thakur sahab, no.. the contract is for arming a battalion of marines for a trial run with H&K416 as Infantry Assault Rifle or IAR as colloquially known.
There is a strong opinion in USMC for 416 as IAR instead of M4 and hence the contract as trial run.

Sourav enen the current M4 is manu by FN. Colt lost the contract.

souravB
BRFite
Posts: 527
Joined: 07 Jun 2018 13:52

Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby souravB » 30 Jan 2019 03:05

ks_sachin wrote:Sourav enen the current M4 is manu by FN. Colt lost the contract.

Sir, yes FN is the primary contractor of M4A1 now. Some smaller boutique OEMs like Knights Armory also manufactures from time to time when the volume needs to be ramped up.
My point was USMC is moving out from M4A1 and moving towards 416s which costs around $1.5K/piece when manufactured in US. US Army is also testing a new platform based on 6.8 SPCII cartridge. All in all, DI system will give way to SS piston and subsequently rifles would be costlier. One only get its money's worth.

ks_sachin
BRFite
Posts: 984
Joined: 24 Jun 2000 11:31
Location: Sydney

Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby ks_sachin » 30 Jan 2019 06:09

souravB wrote:
ks_sachin wrote:Sourav enen the current M4 is manu by FN. Colt lost the contract.

Sir, yes FN is the primary contractor of M4A1 now. Some smaller boutique OEMs like Knights Armory also manufactures from time to time when the volume needs to be ramped up.
My point was USMC is moving out from M4A1 and moving towards 416s which costs around $1.5K/piece when manufactured in US. US Army is also testing a new platform based on 6.8 SPCII cartridge. All in all, DI system will give way to SS piston and subsequently rifles would be costlier. One only get its money's worth.

DI is not bad. SS is not bad.
It seems DI gets an unnecessary bad wrap

johb
BRFite -Trainee
Posts: 36
Joined: 16 Aug 2016 20:00

Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby johb » 02 Feb 2019 21:25

Does anyone know what rifle IA is buying?

http://toi.in/h0FDWY/a28fj

JayS
Forum Moderator
Posts: 4276
Joined: 11 Aug 2016 06:14

Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby JayS » 02 Feb 2019 23:48

johb wrote:Does anyone know what rifle IA is buying?

http://toi.in/h0FDWY/a28fj

Reports mention Sig712 G2.

Thakur_B
BRFite
Posts: 1422
Joined: 11 Aug 2016 06:14

Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby Thakur_B » 03 Feb 2019 09:49

johb wrote:Does anyone know what rifle IA is buying?

http://toi.in/h0FDWY/a28fj


SiG USA 716 under emergency procurement.

Thakur_B
BRFite
Posts: 1422
Joined: 11 Aug 2016 06:14

Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby Thakur_B » 03 Feb 2019 09:54

Thakur_B wrote:Deep upgrade kits for AKM from Bangalore based company Stumpp, Scheule and Somappa for Para SF. Handguard, dust cover, flash hider and buttstock replaced. Fixed sights replaced with pop up sights as well.

Image
Image
Image
Image



Stumpp, Scheule and Somappa have also upgraded Dragunov SVD.

Image

souravB
BRFite
Posts: 527
Joined: 07 Jun 2018 13:52

Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby souravB » 04 Feb 2019 00:20

Sig 716 Gen2 Patrol. We are buying a version of this rifle.

Neshant
BRF Oldie
Posts: 4840
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30

Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby Neshant » 04 Feb 2019 03:30

Thakur_B wrote:
SiG USA 716 under emergency procurement.


emergency procurement = bad planning

Khalsa
BRFite
Posts: 1595
Joined: 12 Nov 2000 12:31
Location: NZL

Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby Khalsa » 04 Feb 2019 05:07

Reminded of the old saying
Lack of planning on your side is not an emergency on my side

But here I feel, the time to taken to push a planned change they are using emergency to bypass ineffective process.

brvarsh
BRFite
Posts: 193
Joined: 03 Mar 2011 20:29

Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby brvarsh » 04 Feb 2019 07:26

Khalsa wrote:Reminded of the old saying
Lack of planning on your side is not an emergency on my side

But here I feel, the time to taken to push a planned change they are using emergency to bypass ineffective process.

Yes I was thinking along the same line. Its a procurement worth having that could have taken eons and unnecessary prying eyes to dislodge. Its a good way to "not plan" and in emergency choose the one you always wanted.

ashishvikas
BRFite
Posts: 432
Joined: 17 Oct 2016 14:18

Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby ashishvikas » 04 Feb 2019 10:27

souravB wrote:Sig 716 Gen2 Patrol. We are buying a version of this rifle.


Do we get optics along with Rifle ? included in deal.

ks_sachin
BRFite
Posts: 984
Joined: 24 Jun 2000 11:31
Location: Sydney

Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby ks_sachin » 04 Feb 2019 13:24

ashishvikas wrote:
souravB wrote:Sig 716 Gen2 Patrol. We are buying a version of this rifle.


Do we get optics along with Rifle ? included in deal.

No

ks_sachin
BRFite
Posts: 984
Joined: 24 Jun 2000 11:31
Location: Sydney

Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby ks_sachin » 04 Feb 2019 13:25

brvarsh wrote:
Khalsa wrote:Reminded of the old saying
Lack of planning on your side is not an emergency on my side

But here I feel, the time to taken to push a planned change they are using emergency to bypass ineffective process.

Yes I was thinking along the same line. Its a procurement worth having that could have taken eons and unnecessary prying eyes to dislodge. Its a good way to "not plan" and in emergency choose the one you always wanted.

Was Sig 7.62 the one we always wanted?
I do tend to agree with emergency ....process...

Pratyush
BRF Oldie
Posts: 8099
Joined: 05 Mar 2010 15:13

Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby Pratyush » 04 Feb 2019 13:36

Thakur_B wrote:
johb wrote:Does anyone know what rifle IA is buying?

http://toi.in/h0FDWY/a28fj


SiG USA 716 under emergency procurement.


Why, don't understand this purchase. Were we not building the SLR in India. Why could it not be bought with minor updates?

gaurav.p
BRFite
Posts: 227
Joined: 04 May 2018 23:02

Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby gaurav.p » 04 Feb 2019 14:07

The same youtube channel above has done a video on caracal and is all praises about it. What do the jingos think?

Pratyush
BRF Oldie
Posts: 8099
Joined: 05 Mar 2010 15:13

Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby Pratyush » 04 Feb 2019 14:52

It doesn't matter what members think about this fire arm.

I want H&K G11 rifle for general infantry.F N P 90 for special forces and HK pdw for vehicle crews. For LMG application I want one of the new case telescopic machine gun.

I feel like this is a nice fit for the Indian army. In terms of having cutting edge technology firearms. Never mind the logistical nightmare this will bring :mrgreen:

For other mundane applications the AK and INSAS and SLR will do the job.

ks_sachin
BRFite
Posts: 984
Joined: 24 Jun 2000 11:31
Location: Sydney

Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby ks_sachin » 04 Feb 2019 15:20

Nah..we should get the felchette gun. That will be one ammo the OFB should be able to do well.

Pratyush
BRF Oldie
Posts: 8099
Joined: 05 Mar 2010 15:13

Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby Pratyush » 04 Feb 2019 15:42

ks_sachin wrote:Nah..we should get the felchette gun. That will be one ammo the OFB should be able to do well.



I had forgotten about that fire arm. The worst part is that I saw a program on such weapon only last evening


https://youtu.be/21qZpSJp5W0

ks_sachin
BRFite
Posts: 984
Joined: 24 Jun 2000 11:31
Location: Sydney

Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby ks_sachin » 04 Feb 2019 16:56

Pratyush since you have touched upon my favourite of all time in the FNFAL do revisit SouravB and my posts in this thread.
Also do visit DSA Arms and see what is possible with the FN.

I believe our stock of cold storage FNs could have been shortened and furniture modernised and used as we perhaps should be using the Sig - as a DMR or battle rifle.

Singha
BRF Oldie
Posts: 66600
Joined: 13 Aug 2004 19:42
Location: the grasshopper lies heavy

Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby Singha » 04 Feb 2019 17:04

is this SIG and Caracal two vendors of the same 7.62 or there are significant diffs?
all of it seems to belong to AR15 lineage?

ks_sachin
BRFite
Posts: 984
Joined: 24 Jun 2000 11:31
Location: Sydney

Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby ks_sachin » 04 Feb 2019 17:18

Sig is 7.62 Nato US manufacturer
Caracal is 5.56 NATOUAE manufacturer
They share AR15 lineage.
Caracal was designed by the two who designed the HK416 and Sig 716.

naird
BRFite
Posts: 238
Joined: 04 Jun 2009 19:41

Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby naird » 04 Feb 2019 17:59

Got a very interesting link. It describes the GSQR trials for PAK Army assault rifles. Description is from a American who took part in this process and i suspect he is from SIG.
http://soldiersystems.net/2018/07/16/general-staff-requirement-gsr-new-assault-rifle/

Summary --
None of the American weapons passed the HOT and COLD trials
American weapons flunked in Sand and Mud Test
FN SCAR was selected but zero was ordered; Considering it is expensive.
Towards Author makes it a point to comment that althrough AR 10 platforms scores high on accuracy but it ranks low on reliability.
He also begins wondering as to what are the parameters that US army puts out when they tests these platforms


I wonder how did SIG platforms pass our own tests if it couldnt meet some of these criteria !!

Bharadwaj
BRFite
Posts: 283
Joined: 09 Oct 2006 11:09

Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby Bharadwaj » 04 Feb 2019 18:09

naird wrote:Got a very interesting link. It describes the GSQR trials for PAK Army assault rifles. Description is from a American who took part in this process and i suspect he is from SIG.
http://soldiersystems.net/2018/07/16/general-staff-requirement-gsr-new-assault-rifle/

Summary --
None of the American weapons passed the HOT and COLD trials
American weapons flunked in Sand and Mud Test
FN SCAR was selected but zero was ordered; Considering it is expensive.
Towards Author makes it a point to comment that althrough AR 10 platforms scores high on accuracy but it ranks low on reliability.
He also begins wondering as to what are the parameters that US army puts out when they tests these platforms


I wonder how did SIG platforms pass our own tests if it couldnt meet some of these criteria !!


All that was mentioned in the media of trials in this "emergency" purchase was a team going to various factories and trying weapons out. I am not sure if these guns underwent the rigorous trials involved in the previous rfp where just about every gun is said to have failed. The SIG 716 appears to be more of a law enforcement weapon than a proper battle riffle. I fear our troops may be asking for the trusty old insas once these fancy phoren guns see the real battle conditions. I sincerely hope I am wrong.

Singha
BRF Oldie
Posts: 66600
Joined: 13 Aug 2004 19:42
Location: the grasshopper lies heavy

Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby Singha » 04 Feb 2019 20:03

i have realized in our chaotic context, with no funding clarity, shifting political regimes, sneaky agents all over....there will never be a platinum bullet "fleet wide" deal on shoes or undies, let alone MRCA or rifles. so its a good move to give the theater commanders financial signoff to buy/make/adapt whatever they need and get functional stuff into the hands of the infantry. so long as they fire 5.56 and 7.62 it should mostly be ok to have a zoo of weapons than 1 standard rifle for the whole fauj.

i vote the zonal commanders spending limits be even more increased. we need to adopt the decentralized model of the american revolutionary war where each general/patron/leader equipped his own formations with whatever tech and means they had, down to uniforms and battle flags.

Prasad
BRF Oldie
Posts: 7323
Joined: 16 Nov 2007 00:53
Location: Chennai

Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby Prasad » 04 Feb 2019 20:05

Anyone know what happened to the JVPC trials by CRPF ?

gaurav.p
BRFite
Posts: 227
Joined: 04 May 2018 23:02

Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby gaurav.p » 04 Feb 2019 20:20

Got a very interesting link. It describes the GSQR trials for PAK Army assault rifles. Description is from a American who took part in this process and i suspect he is from SIG.
http://soldiersystems.net/2018/07/16/general-staff-requirement-gsr-new-assault-rifle/
...


mango question, why are we pursuing screwdrivergiri of ak103 when napak has already brought it? No need for technical superiority?

ks_sachin
BRFite
Posts: 984
Joined: 24 Jun 2000 11:31
Location: Sydney

Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby ks_sachin » 04 Feb 2019 20:29

Pray tell what do you mean by technical superiority in small arms?

naird
BRFite
Posts: 238
Joined: 04 Jun 2009 19:41

Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby naird » 04 Feb 2019 20:47

gaurav.p wrote:mango question, why are we pursuing screwdrivergiri of ak103 when napak has already brought it? No need for technical superiority?


Small arms ? What technical superiority ? Screwdrivergiri is a different question altogether

Pratyush
BRF Oldie
Posts: 8099
Joined: 05 Mar 2010 15:13

Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby Pratyush » 04 Feb 2019 20:59

ks_sachin wrote:Pratyush since you have touched upon my favourite of all time in the FNFAL do revisit SouravB and my posts in this thread.
Also do visit DSA Arms and see what is possible with the FN.

I believe our stock of cold storage FNs could have been shortened and furniture modernised and used as we perhaps should be using the Sig - as a DMR or battle rifle.


I know man, that's why I am even more puzzled by this purchase.

gaurav.p
BRFite
Posts: 227
Joined: 04 May 2018 23:02

Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby gaurav.p » 04 Feb 2019 21:19

naird,ks_sachin wrote:
Small arms ? What technical superiority ? Screwdrivergiri is a different question altogether


India buying the 103 will lead to a situation of two enemies fighting with the same weapon and the exporter mints all the money. Net we are not gaining anything out it. If India is importing some gun, then get a more competent version than the enemy (to keep the chain of imports continuing and keep the enemy in a state of unease). India being economically superior, to buy the same ak103 is a point of equivalence. The key is to de-hyphenate.

I guess the gun trials are done to find the technically superior gun, right?
Just like the INSAS are being partially replaced by more superior/competent Sigs.

ks_sachin
BRFite
Posts: 984
Joined: 24 Jun 2000 11:31
Location: Sydney

Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby ks_sachin » 05 Feb 2019 02:22

gaurav.p wrote:
naird,ks_sachin wrote:
Small arms ? What technical superiority ? Screwdrivergiri is a different question altogether


India buying the 103 will lead to a situation of two enemies fighting with the same weapon and the exporter mints all the money. Net we are not gaining anything out it. If India is importing some gun, then get a more competent version than the enemy (to keep the chain of imports continuing and keep the enemy in a state of unease). India being economically superior, to buy the same ak103 is a point of equivalence. The key is to de-hyphenate.

I guess the gun trials are done to find the technically superior gun, right?
Just like the INSAS are being partially replaced by more superior/competent Sigs.

I am sorry but I don't understand this post. What is equivalence and de-hyphenate when you want the best small arm for the men and women.
There is nothing technologically superior to an AK if reliability and ease of maintenance is required.

gaurav.p
BRFite
Posts: 227
Joined: 04 May 2018 23:02

Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby gaurav.p » 05 Feb 2019 02:52

ks_sachin wrote:I am sorry but I don't understand this post. What is equivalence and de-hyphenate when you want the best small arm for the men and women.
There is nothing technologically superior to an AK if reliability and ease of maintenance is required.


Saar, forgive this mango for poor writing skills. :mrgreen:

Equivalence = both enemies same weapons. Nothing differentiates.

hypenate = in foreign policy, India often finds itself linked to Pak just like Israel is linked to Palestine. With India buying ak103 it would be said 'India buys same weapon as pak'.

Yes AK is best bang for the buck. Going for the same weapon as the adversary sounds weird but as you said there is nothing better to get.

Mihir
BR Mainsite Crew
Posts: 877
Joined: 14 Nov 2004 21:26

Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby Mihir » 05 Feb 2019 02:59

Prasad wrote:Anyone know what happened to the JVPC trials by CRPF ?

They were taking deliveries starting September 2017.
https://twitter.com/crpfindia/status/905796340046643200

souravB
BRFite
Posts: 527
Joined: 07 Jun 2018 13:52

Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby souravB » 05 Feb 2019 03:16

Bharadwaj wrote:All that was mentioned in the media of trials in this "emergency" purchase was a team going to various factories and trying weapons out. I am not sure if these guns underwent the rigorous trials involved in the previous rfp where just about every gun is said to have failed. The SIG 716 appears to be more of a law enforcement weapon than a proper battle riffle. I fear our troops may be asking for the trusty old insas once these fancy phoren guns see the real battle conditions. I sincerely hope I am wrong.

No AR-15 based rifle would pass IA's testing fairly. I do not think even AKs would pass every criteria. It doesn't mean the platforms are bad.
Also the rifles that we see on videos are civilian versions. MilSpec is a catchphrase that is used to entice buyers. Also these rifles use components that are tuned for accuracy and ease of use rather than ruggedness. Actual Military rifles have different components ranging from material to finishing.
Pratyush wrote:
ks_sachin wrote:
I believe our stock of cold storage FNs could have been shortened and furniture modernised and used as we perhaps should be using the Sig - as a DMR or battle rifle.


I know man, that's why I am even more puzzled by this purchase.

I would like to see a FAL with newer light weight all alloy construction, NOx treated 17" barrel, all the usual modern furnitures and chambered in 6.8SPCII


Return to “Mil-Tech Archive”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 6 guests