Small Arms Thread

nsa_tanay
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Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby nsa_tanay » 05 Feb 2009 17:44

I have a simple question. Do we manufacture any Indigenous Sniper Rifle ?

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Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby vicky_iyer » 05 Feb 2009 18:52

nsa_tanay wrote:I have a simple question. Do we manufacture any Indigenous Sniper Rifle ?


I don't think we manufacture any indigenous Sniper Rifle. In my knowledge the Insas series which is the primary infantry weapon consists of Insas Rifle and Insas Machine gun, both in 5.56 mm calibre.

The Sniper rifle used by the regular army is Dragunov.

Thanks
-Vicky Iyer-

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Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby darshhan » 05 Feb 2009 20:01

Dragunov is not a sniper rifle.It is more of a designated marksman rifle.I don't think Indian military doctrine employs snipers which is a disadvantage.Snipers if used properly can be true force multipliers

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Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby Sanjay M » 07 Feb 2009 04:21

We also manufacture that indigenous anti-materiel rifle, called the Vidhwansak

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vidhwansak

That's high-powered and long-range, and so it could function as a sniper rifle, although it might be overkill, except for a high value-target.

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Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby Sanjay M » 07 Feb 2009 04:22

MetalStorm of Australia has managed to get its new 3GL electric grenade-launcher certified:

http://newsstore.smh.com.au/apps/previe ... 0924694MST

http://money.cnn.com/news/newsfeeds/art ... 471340.htm

I wonder, is there any future in this technology? It does seem to be capable of extremely high rates of fire.

Somehow, I think electrically-fired caseless ammunition will be the next big evolution in firearms.

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Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby Gerard » 07 Feb 2009 04:45

darshhan wrote:I don't think Indian military doctrine employs snipers which is a disadvantage.


:roll:
Presumably this fellow is a batman

Image
Caption: MIZORAM 12-08-2008: (JUNGLE WARFARE TRAINING IN MIZORAM) A sniper of the Indian Army Special Forces personnel taking position during the jungle warfare training at the specialized counter-insurgency range of the Indian army's famous Counter-Insurgency and Jungle Warfare School (CIJW) in Vairengte in Mizoram on August 12, 2008.

Image

Image

Thread from the BR archives
Snipers of the Indian Army

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Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby Sanjay M » 07 Feb 2009 04:46

He needs better camo - the colour's all wrong :P

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Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby darshhan » 07 Feb 2009 09:19

Presumably this fellow is a batman


Just wearing a ghillie suit does not make a sniper.There is a difference between designated marksmen whose primary job is squad support and Snipers who can be used as standalone assets to deny freedom of movement to the enemy.Designated marksmen can make a difference in tactical situations but snipers are strategic assets.True snipers should be able to operate deep behind enemy lines for days.All this requires extensive training for which specialized schools should be there.Specific doctrines and procedures need to be developed so that commanders can effectively use snipers on battlefield.Otherwise even if snipers are present they wouldn't be utilized optimally.

I will give you one example.Snipers are not just used for shooting but because of their stealth and operational utility in denied areas they can also gather lots of information.In fact lot of sniper operations are conducted just for this purpose i.e Strategic Reconnaisance.In this sense they are close to Special forces.In fact some of best snipers come from special forces units as they know how to operate with stealth.

Till now there is no such indication that such facilities or such doctrines exist in the Indian Army.I am not saying that they don't exist but atleast till now nothing is in open.Maybe they do operate secret facilities for training or use existing ones for some kind of improvised training.But till I see any concrete report suggesting something like this I would assume otherwise.

As far as these photographs are concerned they mean nothing.Even I can wear a ghillie suit.Will that make me a sniper?

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Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby RayC » 07 Feb 2009 09:39

darshhan wrote:Dragunov is not a sniper rifle.It is more of a designated marksman rifle.I don't think Indian military doctrine employs snipers which is a disadvantage.Snipers if used properly can be true force multipliers


The Indian Army has snipers and uses the Dragunov SVD59 7.62mmx54mmR Sniper Rifle.

Snipers play an important role in infantry battalion. Theyprovide accurate, discriminatory, long-range small-arms fire.

The best use of sniper fire is against key targets that other available weapon systems may be unable to destroy due to their range, size, or location; visibility; security and stealth requirements; avoidance of collateral damage; intensity of conflict; or rules of engagement.

The techniques snipers use enable them to gather detailed, critical information about the enemy as a secondary role. The effectiveness of a sniper is not measured simply by the number of casualties or destroyed targets; sniper effectiveness also includes the effect the presence of snipers has on enemy activities, morale, and decisions. The presence of snipers hinders the enemy's movement, creates confusion and personal fear, disrupts enemy operations and preparations, and compels the enemy to divert forces to deal with the snipers.

Sniper teams should move with a security element (section or platoon) whenever possible. This allows them to reach their areas of operation faster and more safely than if they operated alone. The security element also protects the snipers during operations.

Some of the tasks which a sniper can be tasked in defence is to sight and kill enemy (attacking) commanders along with the radio operator (so as to disable the command and control). Take on heavy weapons like MMG, RL etc so as to disable/ suppress/ destroy the attacking enemy's fire base. Take on the FOO, FAC etc.

In attack, move ahead and position itself so as to defeat spoiling attacks, take on effective weapons by firing into the bunker loopholes etc. However, their move forward has to be coordinated with the artillery since the arty would be giving 'covering' fire to the assaulting troops.

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Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby darshhan » 07 Feb 2009 09:49

The Indian Army has snipers and uses the Dragunov SVD59 7.62mmx54mmR Sniper Rifle.


Can you give me some details to back your claim(No Photographs please).By the way effective range of dragunov is about 800 metres and the max range is about 1200 mts.So whether it is a sniper rifle or designated marksman rifle depends on your classification.But yes according to Nato standards it will most likely be qualified in the latter category.

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Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby putnanja » 07 Feb 2009 09:54

darshshan, you are hearing from an ex-army officer, so you better believe it ;)

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Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby RayC » 07 Feb 2009 10:04

darshhan wrote:
The Indian Army has snipers and uses the Dragunov SVD59 7.62mmx54mmR Sniper Rifle.


Can you give me some details to back your claim(No Photographs please).By the way effective range of dragunov is about 800 metres and the max range is about 1200 mts.So whether it is a sniper rifle or designated marksman rifle depends on your classification.But yes according to Nato standards it will most likely be qualified in the latter category.


I would not give in photographs, since what I have seen is what I believe. I was a Battalion Commander when it was introduced. It is for you to believe me or not believe.

As a Brigade Commander, I organised the Corps Sniper Competition. That was because the ammunition was still being imported.

The Sniper has to be a Marksman. There is no other way acceptable. At least in the Indian Army. His efficiency is material to ensuring the success in decapitating the enemy, preferably the enemy's command and control.

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Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby Rahul M » 07 Feb 2009 10:13

RayC sir, please correct me if I'm wrong but IA also uses snipers in SF units for the behind enemy lines type of ops other than in regular infantry battalions as you describe.
2nd question, are these snipers(in infantry btn) part of the ghatak platoons ?

IIRC we saw snipers operating in the LRDP unit showcased in the times now channel program. (what was it called ? line of duty ?)

added later :
found a relevant article.
http://www.telegraphindia.com/1031023/a ... 491239.asp

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Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby darshhan » 07 Feb 2009 10:19

Thanks Rayc sir for your information.If that is the case then it is good for Army.Snipers if used properly can be a great strategic asset.

Hi Ravibg
darshshan, you are hearing from an ex-army officer, so you better believe it


Which means a civilian should not be participating in a discussion.Is that so?Then make it a private forum.

I am not disrespecting Rayc sir.I have great respect for his service and for every other soldier,sailor or airman.

I was just asking for information.Anything wrong with that?But any way If I hurt anybody's feelings I apologize for that.

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Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby Rahul M » 07 Feb 2009 10:22

Then make it a private forum.

this is a pvt forum btw. (a minor technicality but nevertheless)

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Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby darshhan » 07 Feb 2009 10:30

Rahul M wrote:
Then make it a private forum.

this is a pvt forum btw. (a minor technicality but nevertheless)

I was responding to Ravibg's earlier post.Doesn't matter now.

By the way can anyone tell me how to embed URL's in the post or where I can find such information.

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Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby RayC » 07 Feb 2009 10:31

Rahul M wrote:RayC sir, please correct me if I'm wrong but IA also uses snipers in SF units for the behind enemy lines type of ops other than in regular infantry battalions as you describe.
2nd question, are these snipers(in infantry btn) part of the ghatak platoons ?

IIRC we saw snipers operating in the LRDP unit showcased in the times now channel program. (what was it called ? line of duty ?)


Yes, SF has snipers.

No, Snipers are not part of the Ghatak (at least till the time I was there), but can be used if required.

What is LRDP? Long Range Desert Patrol?

Let me amplify.

Snipers have great potential. Ideal is to take on the Command and Control. If the head is cut off, then like a lizard's tail it wriggles till without energy and life!

The sniper rifle uses rifle cartridges with ordinary, tracer and armour-piercing-incendiary bullets or rifle sniper cartridges. The fire is delivered in single shots.

The Killing range is Killing range,3800m as per the Technical Manuals.

The Sighting range with optical sight 1300m: with open sight 1200m.

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Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby Rahul M » 07 Feb 2009 10:34

RayC sir, thanks. yes, LRDP is as you expanded.

darshan, any legitimate url would be automatically converted to hyperlink by board SW.
to learn such things use the faq at top right corner of page.

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Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby darshhan » 07 Feb 2009 10:37

Some more information on dragunov since we are discussing it.http://world.guns.ru/sniper/sn18-e.htm

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Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby darshhan » 07 Feb 2009 10:38

Thanks Rahul I will check the Faqs

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Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby RayC » 07 Feb 2009 10:44

darshhan wrote:Thanks Rayc sir for your information.If that is the case then it is good for Army.Snipers if used properly can be a great strategic asset.

Hi Ravibg
darshshan, you are hearing from an ex-army officer, so you better believe it


Which means a civilian should not be participating in a discussion.Is that so?Then make it a private forum.

I am not disrespecting Rayc sir.I have great respect for his service and for every other soldier,sailor or airman.

I was just asking for information.Anything wrong with that?But any way If I hurt anybody's feelings I apologize for that.


No, there is nothing which prevents a civilian from stating his view. BR, as far as I know, is quite liberal in that manner.

I presume Ravi was just mentioning that I have the experience and knowledge of the Army and was possibly telling you something that you possibly did not know (that I had a stint in uniform). However, that it no way should curb you.

The problem I face is that 'strategy' as is used. Our concept of strategy is totally different from the civilian concept where anything that is out of the ordinary is taken to be 'strategy'.

The gradations are: Strategy (highest level), operational art (Corps level), tactics.

Please be free to go ahead since it keeps me active even though I am outdated!

Like those grizzly bear photos. I never saw it during my service! :)

I too keep learning!

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Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby darshhan » 07 Feb 2009 10:57

I presume Ravi was just mentioning that I have the experience and knowledge of the Army and was possibly telling you something that you possibly did not know. However, that it no way should curb you.


No problem Rayc sir.Lets move on. :D

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Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby putnanja » 08 Feb 2009 00:02

darshhan wrote:
I presume Ravi was just mentioning that I have the experience and knowledge of the Army and was possibly telling you something that you possibly did not know. However, that it no way should curb you.


No problem Rayc sir.Lets move on. :D


Darshan, Ray is spot on. i don't know how familiar you are with internet forum lingo, but there is a reason I put a smiley in my post when I responded to you.

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Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby Ramesh » 08 Feb 2009 07:48

RayC wrote:

2. 'In indirect support' means if the guns of the units in indirect support are not being used, it can be directed to fire in support of the unit in indirect support.


Sir,
2. It is 'In support'.

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Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby RayC » 08 Feb 2009 08:27

Ashu wrote:
RayC wrote:

2. 'In indirect support' means if the guns of the units in indirect support are not being used, it can be directed to fire in support of the unit in indirect support.


Sir,
2. It is 'In support'.


Not understood as to what you are suggesting.

There are two terms:

1. In Direct Support.

2. In Indirect Support.

In Indirect Support, guns of the arty units in indirect support that are not being used, can be directed to fire in support of the unit in indirect support.

Let me explain further.

An infantry Brigade normally has a Field Regiment affiliated to it.

Let us say, two battalions are going into attack with the third battalion as reserve.

1. Each battalion with get a Battery in direct support i.e. dedicated fire support.

2. The reserve battalion's Battery (that is lying idle) will be in indirect support to both the attacking battalions.

3. However, the battalion that has a more critical task may have this indirect support battery (which is actually the dedicated arty for the reserve battalion but is not being used) may have the reserve battalion's dedicated battery designaed at priority call for the battalion whose task is critical.

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Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby Ramesh » 08 Feb 2009 10:13

Sir, point taken.
Its just that the term used to refer to them is
1. In direct support.
2. In support. (what you are reffering to as in indirect support).
3. At priority call.

PEACE.

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Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby RayC » 08 Feb 2009 10:24

Ashu wrote:Sir, point taken.
Its just that the term used to refer to them is
1. In direct support.
2. In support. (what you are reffering to as in indirect support).
3. At priority call.

PEACE.


You are right.

Guess things are getting foggy.

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Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby Raj Malhotra » 08 Feb 2009 15:18

Re RayC


Reading the military forums of other nations, it seems that there is a trend to leverage the expertise of professional army and optics to train/earmark atleast one person as a "designated marksman" (something short of skills of sniper and better than average) per section/platoon. Is there some similar trend in the Indian army? I saw some posed pics of soldiers with INSAS with mid power scopes but they don't seem to appear in normal pics? Is not INSAS relatively unsuitable for mounting scopes on its hinged cover? etc

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Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby RayC » 08 Feb 2009 21:43

I have no idea of foreign armies.

In our army we have three gradations:
1. Marksman
2. First Class shot.
3. Standard Shot.

Snipers are selected from those who attain the best amongst Marksman in the ARC.

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Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby ArmenT » 09 Feb 2009 12:10

RayC wrote:I have no idea of foreign armies.

In our army we have three gradations:
1. Marksman
2. First Class shot.
3. Standard Shot.

Snipers are selected from those who attain the best amongst Marksman in the ARC.

USMC and US Army have 3 grades as well, except the lowest grade is called "marksman". The grades are "marksman", "sharpshooter" and "expert". Of course, Army and Marines have different training methods and different standards for what qualifies as "marksman", "sharpshooter" and "expert", as well as different ranges (Army shoots between 200-300 yards max., USMC wants people to hit targets at 500 yards, before they qualify as Marines). Civilian competitive shooting organizations here in the US also generally have 3 levels of grading, except the standards in some of them is quite a bit higher. For instance, a civilian qualified "marksman" in some clubs may actually be a better shooter than an army qualified "expert".

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Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby ArmenT » 09 Feb 2009 12:24

Incidentally, in USMC sniper courses, they consider that marksmanship only makes about 10% of a sniper's skillset. They spend a lot more time teaching people about fieldcraft, survival techniques, camouflage, stalking, fire support calling, land navigation, communication, surveillence etc. There are some cases of snipers who had never handled a rifle before joining the marines, but quickly learned all they needed to know about marksmanship.

Snipers and designated marksmen have two different roles, as others have noted above.

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Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby RayC » 09 Feb 2009 12:30

I am not too sure what are the Range Practices these days since various new methods were being tried out, including running and then reaching the firing point and shooting at the target at different ranges.

Fieldcraft was being incorporated and firing from the the 'wrong' shoulder from covers like tree stumps. a furrow in the ground, a bump in the ground and so on!

The max range was 300 yds for rifles and 500 yds for LMG.

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Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby nsa_tanay » 10 Feb 2009 22:08

Seeing those army personnel waring Ghillie suits, I am feeling proud and relieved that we are not lagging in sniping capabilities with respect to other modern armies. And we are at per with adapting and implementing a good sniping strategy/force.

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Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby Aditya G » 16 Feb 2009 01:12

INSAS replacement on the horizon?

http://indianarmy.nic.in/rfi/rfi050209.pdf

REQUEST FOR INFORMATION: MODERN ASSAULT RIFLE FOR INFANTRY
1. Ministry of Defence, Government of India is desirous of procuring Modern
Assault Rifle for the Infantry. The desired Assault Rifle should have the following basic
parameters: -
(a) Assault Rifle.
(i) Calibre. Any caliber.
(ii) Range. 350 - 450m (Maximum Effective Range).
(iii) Weight. 2.8 Kg to 4 Kg (Less attachments and with empty
magazines).
(iv) Rate of Fire. Not less than 650 Rounds Per Minute
(v) Advanced Metallurgy and Composite materials.
(vi) Integrated Sighting System.
(aa) Flip-up iron sights (Tritium tipped).
(ab) Holographic Sight / Reflex Sight.
(ac) Forward Looking Infrared (FLIR) based monocular night
sight.
(ad) Telescopic Sight.
(ae) Visible Target Pointer and Laser Illuminator.
(b) Under Barrel Grenade Launcher (UBGL).
(i) Caliber. 40mm / any other suitable caliber.
(ii) Range. 400m or more.
(iii) Weight. Not more than 1.4 Kg / to be specified by vendor.
(iv) Ammunition. High Explosive, Air Burst, Dual purpose, Non-Lethal
CHLORO BENZAL MALONONITRILE (CS) and Practice (Any other type
of ammunition that can be fired by the Under Barrel Grenade Launcher
(UBGL) may be brought out).
2. Original Equipment Manufacturers (OEM) / Copyright Holders are requested to
confirm that they can supply limited equipment with Transfer of Technology.
3. Original Equipment Manufacturers (OEM)/ Copyright Holders are also requested
to confirm that if Request for Proposal (RFP) is issued by Ministry of Defence,
2
Government of India vide Defence Procurement Procedure (DPP)-2008 (DDP 2008
available on http://www.mod.nic.in), it will be responded to.
4. Following parameters/specifications of Origional Equipment Manufactures
(OEM’s) equipment is requested in the responses to our Request for Information: -
(a) Modularity. The degree of modularity in the weapon in terms of facilitating
replacement of sub-assemblies without the use of any specialist tools.
(b) Ambidextrous. The degree of ambidextrousness facilitated by the
weapon in terms of ease of firing from either shoulder and the ease of switching
the direction of ejection of fired cases. Any other special feature in the design of
the weapon that enhances ambidextrousness in the weapon should be brought
out.
(c) Ammunition. The types of ammunition capable of being fired from the
weapon without any modification.
(d) Integrated Sighting System.
(i) Flip-up Iron Sights. The efficacy of a Tritium coated tip on the iron
sights is envisaged. What is the average life of the Tritium coating and can
it be applied at the field workshop level without use of any specialized
tools?
(ii) Integrated Optical Sights.
(aa) Holographic Sight / Reflex Sight.
(ab) Forward Looking Infrared (FLIR) Based Monocular Night
Sight.
• Is it feasible to operate both the Holographic Sight and
the FLIR Night Sight in tandem?
• The sight should be capable of shooting and transmitting
digital images to personal computer sub-system up to a
distance of not less than 1m. What is the technology ideally
suited for this? Aspects of Electro Magnetic Emission (EMI) /
Electro Magnetic Compatibility (EMC), security and
encryption of the transmission may be brought out.
• Will the sight be able to take advantages of upgrades in
image processing and transmission technology for
import/export of digital files by facilitating future digital
software upgrades (flash upgrades or any such technological
feature) at the user end?
3
• For future integration with new optical devices, will it be
possible to do the same through Application Programming
Interfaces (APIs) and suitable ports?
(ac) Telescopic Sight.
• Is it technologically feasible to house the telescopic sight
and the Forward Looking Infrared (FLIR) monocular night
sight in the same physical housing?
• Is use of telescopic sight with the Forward Looking
Infrared (FLIR) night sight feasible or advisable?
(ad) Multi-Purpose Fire Control Sight for UBGL.
• Please provide specifications and features of the FCS.
• The type of grenades supported by the programmable
ballistic computer [High Explosive (HE), High Explosive Dual
Purpose (HEDP), Smoke, Practice, etc.]
• Integration of Laser Range Finder with the Fire Control
System (FCS).
(e) Firing Mechanism and Safety Aspects.
(i) Details of in-built mechanical safety and aspects of applied safety in
the weapon. The ease of ambidextrousness for the firer in operating the
applied safety levers in the weapon should be clearly brought out.
(ii) Trigger Guard. The weapon will be used in extreme cold climates
where the gloves will require changes in the trigger guard. It will have to
be suitably modified to either move out of the way or some such method.
What are the limitations / advantages of each and how does it affect the
efficiency in operating the weapon?
(f) Range, Lethality, Accuracy and Hit Probability. Provide details for
each of these aspects. The weapon is expected to be effective to kill at all ranges
up to its maximum effective range and should be at least as lethal in terms of
wound ballistics and stopping power as the lead core 7.62mm x 39 mm round
fired from a standard AK-47 rifle.
(g) Magazines. Carrying capacity, strength, type of material used for
construction and any other innovative feature like studs for affixing two
magazines to be clipped together be brought out.
(h) Weapon Finish.
4
(i) Ergonomics.
(ii) Sling attachment points.
(iii) Surface coatings to improve the protection of the weapon against
elements, salty water, acids, corrosive agents etc.
(iv) Metallurgy of the weapon affects the quality and life of both the
barrel as well as the moving parts. Please bring out the latest in weapon
technology that are being used in the assault rifles of today.
(v) Use of ceramics and other high end materials like carbon
composites, their durability and effectiveness.
(i)
(j) Picatinny Rails. Full length Picatinny Rails are envisaged at the
12 O’clock position and additional rails at 3 O’clock, 6 O’clock and 9 O’clock
position. Will this in anyway affect the operational efficiency of the weapon?
(k) Sound. What are the internationally accepted sound levels in this class of
weapon?
(l) Reliability. State the reliability parameters in terms of various Classes of
stoppages during a firing cycle of 1000 rounds.
(m) Butt Stock. Various types of butt stock are being offered the world over.
The butt should have an integral, permanently affixed waterproof storage
compartment and a comfortable back plate that should be shock absorbent and
non-metallic. Please provide details of the butt stock in terms of the
abovementioned parameters.
(n) Maintainability Aspects.
(o) Under Barrel Grenade Launcher (UBGL).
(i) Under Barrel Grenade Launcher (UBGL) Ammunition. Types
of ammunition fired by the Under Barrel Grenade Launcher (UBGL).
(ii) Stock for Stand-alone Operation. The Under Barrel Grenade
Launcher (UBGL) should be able to be fired in a stand-alone mode with a
suitable removable stock. Please provide details about the various types
that are feasible and their advantages / disadvantages.
(iii) Sights. The Under Barrel Grenade Launcher (UBGL) should have
an integrated Fire Control System that should have a laser range finder
and ballistic computer for trajectory computation. The ease of use and
display of the aiming point on the reticle pattern should be easy. How is
the same being achieved?
5
5. Countries/ World Armies in which your Assault Rifle, Under Barrel Grenade
Launcher (UBGL) and other items listed above are being used and since when may
please be listed out.
6. The responses from Original Equipment Manufacturers (OEMs) are requested by
28 Feb 09 at the following address:-
Additional Directorate General of Weapons and Equipment (WE-8/9)
General Staff Branch
Room No 208G
South Block
Integrated HQ of MoD (Army)
DHQ PO
New Delhi – 110 011
(Fax: +91-11-23793274, Email: we_dte@yahoo.com)

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Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby Brando » 16 Feb 2009 01:52

Developing an advanced weapon in the laboratory or workshop is completely different from making it a viable weapon. The biggest problem with Indian Ordinance Factories is their shoddy Quality Control. The INSAS project should be thrown into the private arena and private research companies along with the likes of DRDO should compete in developing the next generation of the weapon. Following the same glacial project cycle is not wise at all.

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Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby Rahul M » 16 Feb 2009 03:03

moi thinks that assault rifle RFI is for the F-INSAS program.

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Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby ParGha » 16 Feb 2009 03:52

Brando wrote:Developing an advanced weapon in the laboratory or workshop is completely different from making it a viable weapon. The biggest problem with Indian Ordinance Factories is their shoddy Quality Control.

Bingo!
Brando wrote:The INSAS project should be thrown into the private arena and private research companies along with the likes of DRDO should compete in developing the next generation of the weapon. Following the same glacial project cycle is not wise at all.

But what does parceling out the R&D work to private sector do to address the fundamental issues IOF has with its quality control? As you yourself said, having a great design and having it implemented correctly are two totally different things. If anything needs outsourcing, it is the manufacturing. The personal arms technology has not advanced that significantly in last 50 years to be worried about the speed of R&D.

Most of the advances there days are in the peripherals. Yes, there has been some advances in making the rifle itself lighter and more compact with advanced materials... but they are not something one should be worried too much about: At the end of the day it is a battle rifle meant for rough use and if necessary rough maintenance, a pound more-or-less does not matter if it more reliable and easier to maintain.

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Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby ParGha » 16 Feb 2009 04:06

Rahul M wrote:moi thinks that assault rifle RFI is for the F-INSAS program.


Yup, this is a strong hint of where they are heading:

(j) Picatinny Rails. Full length Picatinny Rails are envisaged at the 12 O’clock position and additional rails at 3 O’clock, 6 O’clock and 9 O’clock position. Will this in anyway affect the operational efficiency of the weapon?


Among other things:

(vi) Integrated Sighting System.

Bad Idea.

(aa) Flip-up iron sights (Tritium tipped).

Good Idea.

ii) Trigger Guard. The weapon will be used in extreme cold climates where the gloves will require changes in the trigger guard. It will have to be suitably modified to either move out of the way or some such method. What are the limitations / advantages of each and how does it affect the efficiency in operating the weapon?

Good foresight. Cold climate is only one issue, an NBC environment also poses the same question.

(m) Butt Stock. Various types of butt stock are being offered the world over. The butt should have an integral, permanently affixed waterproof storage compartment and a comfortable back plate that should be shock absorbent and non-metallic. Please provide details of the butt stock in terms of the abovementioned parameters.

If this means that a bullpup is out of question, excellent!

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Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby Katare » 16 Feb 2009 07:41

F-INSAS for sure

The sight should be capable of shooting and transmitting
digital images to personal computer sub-system up to a
distance of not less than 1m


So the soldier would not only shoot but also record what he is shooting at and if he shot it. The sight would also act as a tactical recon tool. :eek:

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Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby Raj Malhotra » 16 Feb 2009 10:53

I wonder why the RFB does not say anything about:-


1. The capability to hold zero while all attachments are swapped or rifle is field stripped.

2. Ease of field stripping the rifle

3. Commanlity with sniper, LMG, rifle and carbines etc


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