Small Arms Thread

Pranay · Post by **Pranay** » 12 Jan 2010 19:43

http://atwar.blogs.nytimes.com/2010/01/ ... 1-guns/?hp

The M-4 carbine and upcoming modifications... must see videos in the article.

The M-4 carbine, one of the primary rifles used by the United States military, appears destined for a change. After concerns surfaced about rifles overheating in a sustained firefight in 2008 in Afghanistan, the manufacturer and the United States Army are close to agreeing on a modification to the weapon’s barrel that makes the carbine more resistant to the stresses of extended firing.

manojmr · Post by **manojmr** » 15 Jan 2010 10:16

Livefist showing Para commando with TAR 21 Rifle.

http://livefist.blogspot.com/2010/01/in ... rifle.html

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 16 Jan 2010 04:36

I saw a show on Military Channel on Combat Rifles and that the old 7.62mm M-14 is making a come back due to its stopping power and range in Iraq and Afghanistan. The terrain :sand etc., make it necessary.

Hope all the Ishapores are not being de-militarized.

pgbhat · Post by **pgbhat** » 16 Jan 2010 05:19

^
actually makes sense, "Shoot to injure" argument would not work with suicidal maniacs anyways.

RayC · Post by **RayC** » 16 Jan 2010 06:14

On Rifles.

Tech Info

pgbhat · Post by **pgbhat** » 16 Jan 2010 09:53

History Channel's Sniper - Inside the Crosshairs
[youtube]BbOyaPC5wBQ&feature=related[/youtube]
Remaining parts are in related videos section.

Bheem · Post by **Bheem** » 16 Jan 2010 12:07

Western companies are into business of marketing and whatever they say or casual reading of military info does not "necessarily" bring out correct information. Lux will not make anybody a beauty queen

5.56mm can kill if it tumbles cutting a ragged path in the body, hits CNS, hits a bone which will send bullet & bone fragements flying all over inside the body cutting organs, if it hits major artery or organ. Now a take a map of human body and you will notice that this covers almost all of human being center mass hits. Surviving after a 5.56mm bullet passes through a person is a rarity.

7.62mm has difficulty in COT, COIN, Urban fighting etc due to its weight & length of rifle as also difficulty of shooting from the hip etc. So adopting one/two bullpup 7.62m rifle/s for designated marksmansip role in a section makes sense but not for replacing 5.56mm rifles. But then why not go the whole hog and adopt a 12.7mm anti-material rifle per section like Geapard-2

Western magzines are nowdays touting 4 major changes, readopting 7.62mm, changing to new intermediate round, shorter barrel + new ammo for 5.56mm rifle, anti-material+sniper rifles etc. All which have pros and cons and sometimes the articles are mutually contradictory.

Though I also think there should be some extra organic small arms for a unit and increase or decrease of ratio of 12.7, 7.62, 5.56 rifles and machine guns should be conducted as per operational profile, which as i understand is also the new doctrine of UK in afghanistan

I would arm each section of infantry with atleast One or two 12.7mm gepard-2 anti-material/sniper rifle plus normal 5.56mm rifles/carbines

RayC · Post by **RayC** » 16 Jan 2010 18:37

A section consists of 10 men, out of which one is a Section Commander.

6 men minimum is required for assault group and three men for the support group (including the Section 2IC).

One can now decide what all weapons that can be kitted for this section.

The Vidhwansak AMR weighs 25 kgs and requires a crew of 2.

It is fired from the prone position.

I have seen it but not fired it and so the details is from one of my visits.

Gaur · Post by **Gaur** » 16 Jan 2010 18:58

^^
Sir,
Has Army inducted Vidhwansak? If so, then has it been inducted in substantial nos?
My understanding was that Vidhwansak was inducted by BSF but not by Army.

Bheem · Post by **Bheem** » 16 Jan 2010 21:58

7.62MAG, ATGM-Milan, Igla-Manpad, Vidhwanshak etc are heavy equipment and cannot be "organic" to a section or even a platoon. These weapons manned by say 3 men team will be attached as and when necessary to a section, platoon

Gepard-2 is around 10kg and can be organic to a section

RayC · Post by **RayC** » 17 Jan 2010 06:58

Gaur wrote:^^
Sir,
Has Army inducted Vidhwansak? If so, then has it been inducted in substantial nos?
My understanding was that Vidhwansak was inducted by BSF but not by Army.

I don't think so. Or to be sure, I am not aware.

I was merely giving an example of what the weight would be like since I presume we will finally go for the indigenous weapon systems.

When I wrote I have seen it, what I meant was that I have observed the AMR in service.

Avinash R · Post by **Avinash R** » 17 Jan 2010 12:47

British troops get U.S. rifles to tackle the Taliban
17th January 2010

British soldiers are to be given a powerful new U.S.-made rifle to take on Taliban fighters in Afghanistan.

The Ministry of Defence has spent £1.5million on 440 Sharpshooter semi-automatic rifles, which use 7.62mm ammunition that can kill at up to 900yards.

The order follows concern that the Army's standard issue SA80 A2 assault rifle, which fires smaller 5.56mm bullets, is less effective because its 'kill' range is limited to around 300yards.
Sharpshooter rifle

It means that insurgents - who use 7.62mm ammunition for their AK47 rifles - back off and shoot at British troops from longer distances. Half the battles in Helmand province, where British troops are based, are fought at between 300 and 900yards.

Critics within the Army say the MoD's decision to buy the Sharpshooters - also known as the L129A1 - is too little, too late.

The weapon, the first new infantry combat rifle to be issued to British troops for more than 20 years, will be used from October by the 1st Battalion, The Parachute Regiment, after troops are trained to operate it.

But one senior officer said: 'The MoD is only ordering just over 400, and it's five years too late. There are going to be so few of these rifles that they will be handed out like a job-share.'

Tory MP Bernard Jenkin, a member of the Commons Defence Select Committee, said: 'The realisation that the SA80 A2 does not throw a heavy enough round for combat operations opens up the whole question of what is the right standard rifle for the Armed Forces.'

kaangeya · Post by **kaangeya** » 18 Jan 2010 22:57

There never seems to be an end to this 7.62 vs. 5.56 trade off. Recently met a CISF trooper at and Indian airport carring the INSAS. When I asked him about his preference he replied AK-47 without blinking. But when I asked him about the 5.56's terminal ballistics, lighter mass (hence more rounds/magazine) he readily admitted that it is indeed true. The AK-47 it would seem hits an optimum spot despite several other drawbacks including cumbersome fire switches, for reliability above and beyond everything else. Chewing out a 7.62 round automatically and reliably is a great advancement, something that no other gun maker has achieved thus far. The British Army it seems has a problem with tactics.

Lalmohan · Post by **Lalmohan** » 19 Jan 2010 02:38

^^^it would appear that neither side is too keen to engage at close quarters...

(programme by ross kemp with lots of clips on youtube show brit army on patrol and combat in afghanistan - rarely do they meet a talib face to face)

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 19 Jan 2010 03:31

The Anglo-Afghan Wars also had long range engagements. Recall Dr. Watson and his limp due to a bullet wound from a jezail rifle in one of the Afghan Wars?

Kipling wrote!

A scrimmage in a Border Station
A canter down some dark defile
Two thousand pounds of education
Drops to a ten-rupee jezail.

ArmenT · Post by **ArmenT** » 19 Jan 2010 12:09

Avinash R wrote:British troops get U.S. rifles to tackle the Taliban

Note that these new rifles are only to be used by designated marksmen, not the entire squad. UK nomenclature calls these guys "Sharpshooters" (i.e.) not quite snipers, but above ordinary soldiers. So they'll continue to use SA-80s but have one guy in the squad carrying the new weapon.

Incidentally, the Daily Mail article has quite a bit of DDMitis in it. The Brits do already carry a rifle that fires a 7.62x51mm round (same as the new rifle). It is called the L96A1 manufactured by Accuracy International and the Brits have been using it since 1985.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Accuracy_I ... ic_Warfare
The problem with the L96A1 is that it has a bolt-action and is not suitable for patrolling soldiers, which is why they put out a tender looking for a semi-auto. Incidentally HK417 and FN SCAR were the other rifles in the competition, but the L129A1 just happened to be a better deal (i.e.) it meets the accuracy requirements for the ranges specified, works with ordinary ammo as well as match grade (HK417 prefers match grade ammo only) and is cheaper than the other two as well.

Which brings up an important point. It doesn't matter if you have a rifle with super long range if you don't have the scope and sights + extra training to go with it. So even if you have a 7.62x51mm rifle, it isn't easy to hit a man sized target beyond 300-350 yards with just plain iron sights. USMC does train for 500 yard targets as part of the quals though, but the target is 6 ft x 6 ft for this range and the man sized silhouette is 20"x40", first ring is 40" wide, second ring is 60" wide and you get points for hitting the paper as well.

@ramana: Jezails were effective up to 400-450 yards or so, which was better than the old British Brown Bess musket which was only effective for 50-150 yards or so. Brown Bess was not rifled, but neither were most jezails. However jezails were not made to be carried around as easily. The tribesman had to rest the barrel end on a boulder or on a suitable bipod in order to fire it. Also since most jezails were not rifled (and most Afghan gunsmiths weren't all that skilled in converting the barrels to rifled versions) that's why when the Lee Enfield and Martini rifles came out, the tribesmen would try to get their hands on one.

negi · Post by **negi** » 19 Jan 2010 12:25

^ Yep pretty much on the lines of GALATZ and Dragunovs which IA uses as marksmen/sharshooter's rifle while H&K MSG-90 is for dedicated snipers.

manojmr · Post by **manojmr** » 23 Jan 2010 08:31

Live Fist reporting small arms RFI

does this mean a change from INSAS

The Indian Army is in the market for a series of new small arms systems and accessories. Requests for Information from global contractors have been issued this month for a new 5.56 mm Close Quarter Battle Carbine (CQB Carbine), a new 7.62 mm Light Machine Gun (LMG) -- both with optical sights -- and a list of eight accessories for its Israeli TAR-21 assault rifles, including telescopic sights, accessory rails, dual magazine clips, self luminous reflex sight for the UBGL and single eye night vision with head band.

The Indian Army has also put out a crucial RFI for the successor to its L-70 and ZU-23MM-2B guns, but more on that later.

http://livefist.blogspot.com/2010/01/in ... -arms.html

nachiket · Post by **nachiket** » 23 Jan 2010 10:30

manojmr wrote:Live Fist reporting small arms RFI

does this mean a change from INSAS

There is no INSAS carbine variant in service and the only 7.62mm LMG in service is the old Bren.

manojmr · Post by **manojmr** » 23 Jan 2010 11:40

My question was with 5.56 mm Close Quarter Battle Carbine (CQB Carbine) which the OFB manufactures

MINSAS Carbine 5.56 mm is specially designed and developed for close quarter battle (CQB) role

http://ofbindia.gov.in/products/data/weapons/wsc/24.htm

nachiket wrote:
manojmr wrote:Live Fist reporting small arms RFI

does this mean a change from INSAS
There is no INSAS carbine variant in service and the only 7.62mm LMG in service is the old Bren.

ArmenT · Post by **ArmenT** » 30 Jan 2010 23:02

Interesting development in small arms technology from Armatix GmbH
http://www.armatix.com/Smart-System.38.0.html?&L=1

This new concept revolutionizes the field of guns handling safety in a incredible way. Should a weapon be snatched, stolen or lost while in use, it is automatically deactivated and rendered unusable.

The user is given the weapon and a wristwatch. The watch serves as an authentication device.

The beauty of this innovation is that if the weapon moves away from the wristwatch, it refuses to fire. To answer the obvious question, one weapon can be made to authorize a set of watches (e.g.) all the members of a company, so they can use each others weapons in an emergency. However if an unauthorized person seizes the weapon, it will refuse to fire once out of range of the watch. So what happens if they take the watch as well. Designers thought of that as well.

To activate the wrist watch, the authorized person's fingerprint must first be read by the wrist watch.
An internal database compares the current fingerprint against stored prints and responds accordingly.
....
Arming and disarming the weapon is a hands-free operation that takes just a matter of seconds by moving towards and away from the weapon. As soon as the biometric transmitter is activated, the user need do nothing else to arm the weapon. Similarly, the weapon is disarmed automatically when it is moved away from the hand.

A biometric transponder enables any number of weapons to be activated. Likewise, several users can be authorized to use a single weapon (e.g. all members of a police unit). A record is made every time the weapon is activated, and a transponder can be deactivated in seconds.

If the wrist band is ripped off or removed for example, both transponder and weapon are deactivated automatically. After a set period of time, the weapon is totally deactivated, even if its still near a transponder.

Unfortunately this smart system is pretty expensive currently, but I expect prices will drop once if it hits mass production.
Wired magazine has some coverage as well. CLICK HERE

putnanja · Post by **putnanja** » 03 Feb 2010 09:19

Army looking for foreign carbines

...
The Indian Army wants to replace its old 9mm carbine of World War II vintage with a 5.56 one.
...
After an earlier plan to make this with foreign collaboration fizzled out, the army has begun scouting for the weapon in open market. A request for information (RFI) was lately posted on Indian Army website inviting details on this type of gun from the vendors. Carbine is smaller than rifles and used for close quarter combat. The army in its RFI has left it upon the vendor to specify the weight, length, rate of fire and so on.
...
...
Earlier it was planned to make 5.56 carbines in collaboration with Singapore Technologies Kinetic (STK), at local ordnance factories. However, as is becoming the norm, a commission scandal led to the deal with STK being held up. The former chairman of Ordnance Factory Board (OFB) Sudipto Ghosh was arrested in this case. Interestingly, a 5.56 carbine is already being made by two different government agencies in the country. But for some reasons, army is interested in importing it. The one being made by Indian ordnance factory is called ‘Amogh’.

...
...

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 03 Feb 2010 10:32

ramana wrote:I saw a show on Military Channel on Combat Rifles and that the old 7.62mm M-14 is making a come back due to its stopping power and range in Iraq and Afghanistan. The terrain :sand etc., make it necessary.

Hope all the Ishapores are not being de-militarized.

Looks like India has one system in three different calibers. The massa guys have three different vendors.

Vidhwanshak

RayC saab, Can one of these take out a bunker shooting thru the slits?

ArmenT · Post by **ArmenT** » 03 Feb 2010 10:48

putnanja wrote:Army looking for foreign carbines

...
Interestingly, a 5.56 carbine is already being made by two different government agencies in the country. But for some reasons, army is interested in importing it. The one being made by Indian ordnance factory is called ‘Amogh’.

From some news articles from a while back, AMOGH was pretty much rejected after NSG trials and OFB didn't contest the results.
http://ajaishukla.blogspot.com/2009/05/ ... on-of.html

Other sources in the army said a 5.56 carbine is needed so as to achieve standardization of ammunition. Now the army uses rifles and light machine guns of 5.56 calibre so it has to keep 9 mm ammunition just for carbines. “If a5.56 mm carbine is inducted, similar ammunition can be used in different weapons,” said a source in the army.

This sentence makes complete sense if they're talking about 5.56x45 mm. ammo only. Not sure about the AMOGH specs, but the last OFB-made INSAS carbine used 5.56x30 mm. ammo, not 5.56x45 m.m NATO ammunition, which the rest of the INSAS family uses. They couldn't use 5.56x45 mm. on the INSAS carbine version because some of the combustion was happening outside the chamber causing tremendous flash and loss of accuracy, which is why they had to go with the smaller round. Interestingly other manufacturers make carbines that can take 5.56x45 mm. NATO ammo, so I'm not sure why OFB was having trouble doing so.

RayC · Post by **RayC** » 03 Feb 2010 11:29

ramana wrote:
ramana wrote:I saw a show on Military Channel on Combat Rifles and that the old 7.62mm M-14 is making a come back due to its stopping power and range in Iraq and Afghanistan. The terrain :sand etc., make it necessary.

Hope all the Ishapores are not being de-militarized.

Looks like India has one system in three different calibers. The massa guys have three different vendors.

Vidhwanshak

RayC saab, Can one of these take out a bunker shooting thru the slits?

An anti material Rifle can take down a bunker.

I have not seen it in action because by the time it was inducted into the Army, I had retired. But those who have used it, have said that it does bring down bunkers.

In so far as the arrays of calibres are being used for different weapons, it is a complex issue.

First of all it is the US political military industry nexus. They manufacture new theories and so a certain calibre is made popular the world over, including India; more so, India. With no disrespect to anyone, one can see the bright eyed exuberance that gets displayed in India over anything ‘foreign’ and cosmetically appealing. That enthusiasm is also displayed by the Weapons and Equipment Directorate and the DRDO. The WE Dte watches the glossies and writes up the GSQR and the DRDO is enthused and are ready to give India the moon, without realising that everyone cannot be Neil Armstrong! Thus, a mismatch. Thus, the delays. The op environment changes and new inputs have to be cranked in to the GSQR and the DRDO states that too can be done. The mess up of the Arjun Tank is a case in point. Take the case of VRDE. What extraordinary vehicles they have produced? This is not a J’Acuse, but what is the level of frustrations, both in the Services and the DRDO over indigenisation.

The next issue is the operational environment, psychology and the tactics followed which suggests the type of weapon an Army requires.

The US Army is very sensitive to body bags. That is why they want to take on the enemy at longer distances, even if accuracy is not there. That is why they use a sledge hammer to kill a fly. They can afford it since money is not their problem.

India does not replicate the US Army ethos and more so, to be frank, we cannot afford it financially. I don’t think in the near future India will do so. Another reason is that we have a long history of valour as our watchword and I am not talking of the colonial or the post Independence time, but way back in history. It may sound cruel and insensitive that one feels life is cheap, but then Namak, Nam, Nishan being the credo, sacrifice is inbuilt.

Our ethos and tactics, is based on the British credo (I don’t know if they still have it) that you keep your powder dry till you see the ‘whites of the eye’ of the enemy. This makes sense. Our terrain and the logistic system do not guarantee an endless supply of ammunition that gets replenished immediately there is a demand. On the post you have X amt of amn and while in an attack you have a Y amt of amn. You poop it off and there will be a lull and maybe the objective will not be seized. Waste of effort, lives, matériel and money!

Therefore, you require long distance weapons with stopping power of the 7.62 calibre or 12.7 (like the HMGs) that depletes the enemy and then medium distance enemy who are traversing the minefield carefully (who wants to die?!) and hence good targets and so 5.56 and then the Close Quarter battle weapons. It could be 9mm or 5.56. It is a myth that 5.56 does not kill at 300. Why do they not stand and prove it so? Theory is something and practice is another!

In attack, one has pouch ammunition and so if they finish off the ammunition at long distance without closing in the enemy, what will they fight the enemy with?

I will be frank. Show me a man in or without uniform who will want to die like a fool except the Islamic fundamentalists?

My views.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 04 Feb 2010 02:58

Thanks RayC.

Another question so the ammo for AK type rifles is imported? OFB looks like doesnt make it.

RayC · Post by **RayC** » 04 Feb 2010 09:16

ramana wrote:Thanks RayC.

Another question so the ammo for AK type rifles is imported? OFB looks like doesnt make it.

I presume it must be. However, with so much of terrorists in Kashmir being killed or captured along with their weapons, there is no dearth of AKs or the amn.

Dmurphy · Post by **Dmurphy** » 04 Feb 2010 10:29

^^^ sahi!

So extrapolating a bit further, we're using Chinese/Peshawari ammo to kill the Mofos

RayC · Post by **RayC** » 04 Feb 2010 11:24

Dmurphy wrote:^^^ sahi!

So extrapolating a bit further, we're using Chinese/Peshawari ammo to kill the Mofos

Officially, no!

Yet, I would have no hesitation to kill them with a bamboo up theirs you know what with a bamboo I could lay hand on from Arunacal!

ArmenT · Post by **ArmenT** » 04 Feb 2010 11:52

This is the really funny part:
http://ofbindia.gov.in/products/data/weapons/wsc/21.htm
OFB has a rifle for sale that appears to be an AK clone -- and it even uses AK-47 sized ammo. (7.62x39 mm.)

On the other hand, they don't seem to make any ammo for it:
http://ofbindia.gov.in/index.php?wh=A-E-P-C&lang=en
The only 7.62mm ammo you see here is NATO sized ammo (7.62x51 mm.) which won't fit the above rifle.

So what gives here.

RayC · Post by **RayC** » 04 Feb 2010 12:17

Being smart assed as is always with Indians!

See it here.

All gas and no go!

We must have the greatest cosmetically cute weapon without a clue of the op environment or the terrain and such like!

What is good for the US is good for India!!

Avinash R · Post by **Avinash R** » 04 Feb 2010 12:55

ArmenT wrote:This is the really funny part:
http://ofbindia.gov.in/products/data/weapons/wsc/21.htm
OFB has a rifle for sale that appears to be an AK clone -- and it even uses AK-47 sized ammo. (7.62x39 mm.)

On the other hand, they don't seem to make any ammo for it:
http://ofbindia.gov.in/index.php?wh=A-E-P-C&lang=en
The only 7.62mm ammo you see here is NATO sized ammo (7.62x51 mm.) which won't fit the above rifle.

So what gives here.

I doubt OFB makes ak clones any more, Harry had mentioned in 2004 that Kalashnikov was upset with OFB for making ak47 clones

Subequently in 2005 India and Russia signed an agreement on intellectual property rights. This agreement prohibits reverse engineering of equipment of russian origin and it's manufacture.

And this report from 2007 mentions russian minister warning of legal action against those manufacturing and selling ak clones.

So my guess is OFB has wisely stopped any plans of production of ak clones.

nachiket · Post by **nachiket** » 04 Feb 2010 15:11

Avinash R wrote: I doubt OFB makes ak clones any more, Harry had mentioned in 2004 that Kalashnikov was upset with OFB for making ak47 clones

Subequently in 2005 India and Russia signed an agreement on intellectual property rights. This agreement prohibits reverse engineering of equipment of russian origin and it's manufacture.

And this report from 2007 mentions russian minister warning of legal action against those manufacturing and selling ak clones.

So my guess is OFB has wisely stopped any plans of production of ak clones.

Funny! The chinese have copied, illegaly produced and exported just about every Russian weapon they bought from kalashnikovs to Su-27s and the Russians threaten legal action against OFB for producing an Ak clone?

Craig Alpert · Post by **Craig Alpert** » 05 Feb 2010 01:29

nachiket wrote: Funny! The chinese have copied, illegaly produced and exported just about every Russian weapon they bought from kalashnikovs to Su-27s and the Russians threaten legal action against OFB for producing an Ak clone?

OBVIOUSLY

The SDRE's cloned it to PERFECTION
Given Chinese capability with cloning and actually certifying the equipment to work, the Desi lads made sure that the mastered the cloning and ensured it worked 100%

RayC · Post by **RayC** » 05 Feb 2010 06:16

The INSAS rifle is based on the famous Kalashnikov AK-47 action, but with many modifications. The basic gas-operated action (long stroke gas system, rotating bolt, and stamped steel receiver) is of the Kalashnikov pattern. The gas system is fitted with a manual gas regulator similar in design to that found on the FN FAL as well as a gas cutoff. The charging handle is positioned on the left side of the forearm; it is similar in position and design to the German HK G3 rifle.

ParGha · Post by **ParGha** » 05 Feb 2010 08:10

RayC wrote:The INSAS rifle is based on the famous Kalashnikov AK-47 action, but with many modifications.

Sir, I don't think they are referring to the INSAS... OFB-India also produce(d?) a straight out AKM clone with cosmetic changes, which obviously irked the Rus. Apparently the IA later rejected it because of quality issues and they were given off to some paramilitary forces. Haven't heard if it is still in production.

If I were to guess at the Russians' annoyance I would guess they were p!ssed off because an ongoing negotiation to produce AK-103s and a couple of other AK-1XX series in India with a private partner had fallen apart, so when OFB came up with their "A-7" almost simultaneously the Bear snarled.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 12 Feb 2010 00:16

I watched a video on History Channel Intl on the Luger. Quite impressive weapon. Previous show was on the Guns of the British Army since earliest times. Didnt know the Brown Bess was good for ~ 100 years from 1750s!

Craig Alpert · Post by **Craig Alpert** » 12 Feb 2010 02:48

Antony promises to look beyond the Ordnance Factory Boards

11 Feb 2010 PIB: Speaking at a meeting of the Consultative Committee attached to his Ministry on the subject ‘Ordnance Factories’, Shri Antony said Defence Public Sector Undertakings alone will not be able to meet all the requirements of the Armed Forces at the pace and time – frame envisaged by the Government. He however, ruled out corporatisation of the Defence arms industry saying “minus corporatisation, we will give more room to the private sector”. The Defence Minister said now that revision of Defence Procurement Procedure has become an annual affair, the thrust this year would be to give more roles to the Indian private sector. There would be more room for ‘buy Indian, make Indian’.

Appreciating the role of Ordnance Factories over the years, Shri Antony said these units have been by and large successful in establishing indigenous production facilities for a variety of defence equipment. These include production of T-72, T-90 and Arjun Tanks, armoured personnel carriers, mine – protected and bullet proof vehicles, artillery guns, naval guns, night vision devices and fire control systems for armoured vehicles, small arms and many varieties of ammunition. “Indigenisation of different products have been one of the main objectives of Ordnance Factory Board”, he said.

The Ordnance Factory Board comprises 39 ordnance factories. Two new factories are coming up at Nalanda in Bihar and Korwa in Uttar Pradesh for production of artillery ammunition and carbines respectively. In the year 2008-09, the total turnover of Ordnance Factories was Rs. 7229 crore. It is expected to increase to Rs. 8,720 crore during the current financial year. During 2010 – 11, the turnover of Ordnance Factories is expected to go up to Rs. 9846 crores due to increase in the requirement of arms and ammunition and armoured vehicles. The non-defence sales are expected to be around Rs. 1360 crores.

The meeting witnessed enthusiastic participation in the discussion by the Members of Parliament. Some of them felt that the products of the Ordnance Factories are not of desired quality and that they are still producing many obsolete arms and ammunitions. One of the member wanted to know, whether the Ordnance Factory Board (OFB) is geared to match the requirements of the Indian Armed Forces because of the shift in their doctrines, recently. Some of the members suggested that OFB should only focus on cutting edge products and ‘not try to reinvent the wheel’. The Minister of State for Defence Shri MM Pallam Raju also took part in the discussion.

The Members of Parliament, who attended today’s meeting included Shri Manish Tewari, Shri Naveen Jindal, Shri Gajanan Dharmshi Babar, Shri Shivaji Adhalrao Patil, Shri Kailkesh N Singh Deo, Dr. Murli Manohar Joshi, Shri Sudip Bandyopadhyay, Shri NSV Chitthan, Shri Lalit Mohan Suklabaidya, Shri SS Ramasubbu and Shri Gopal Singh Shekhawat from Lok Sabha and Shri Ram Chandra Khutia, Shri Shivanand Tiwari, Shri Balwant Alias Bal Apte and Dr. Mahendra Prasad from Rajya Sabha. The meeting was also attended by the Defence Secretary Shri Pradeep Kumar, the Secretary Defence Production Shri Rajkumar Singh and the Scientific Advisor to the Raksha Mantri Dr. V.K. Saraswat.

Speaking to a senior OFB board member, 8ak learnt that these units were sometimes set up in far away/rural outposts purely because an influential politician wanted to create jobs in his constituency. Other reason for placing them in rural areas was because they were producing weapons and explosives they had to keep a minimum distance from inhabitation. These places had serious infrastructure & transportation problems and nobody-of-merit wanted to be posted here.

ArmenT · Post by **ArmenT** » 12 Feb 2010 11:30

ramana wrote:I watched a video on History Channel Intl on the Luger. Quite impressive weapon. Previous show was on the Guns of the British Army since earliest times. Didnt know the Brown Bess was good for ~ 100 years from 1750s!

I always felt that Lugers were a little bit mechanically complicated, but it is still a beautiful weapon. Incidentally the firm that was in charge of making them after WW-I (Simson) was owned by a Jewish family that was forced to flee out of Germany by the Nazis.

Avinash R · Post by **Avinash R** » 12 Feb 2010 18:42

BAE ties up with Indian co to supply bullet-proof jackets