Small Arms Thread

ParGha
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Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby ParGha » 21 Feb 2010 02:29

rohitvats wrote:If memory serves me right, IA did induct HMG as company(?) weapon for sometime. But it seems, IA did not see any incremental benefit from the induction and subsequently withdrew the weapon. I very distinctly remember seeing photograph of a soldier on LOC with HMG in a bunker.

Yes, I have seen it too - its hosted in BR gallery (http://www.bharat-rakshak.com/LAND-FORC ... 4.jpg.html). Just want to know the story behind it.

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Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby Bheem » 21 Feb 2010 10:36

RayC wrote:
Or is there a gold pot at the end of the rainbow?


Sometimes it is institutional stupidity or inertia or just new fad called "Global RFP".

Note

Pistols - no new design - Imports of israeli product being pushed.

9mm Carbine - no new design - MP5 is the fad

Rifle - no new design - Global RFP is the fad - disguised as carbine


INSAS is 1970s design. All contemporay designs have been upgraded like G41 to G36, M16 to HK416, FNC to SCAR, Galil to Tavor, Beretta to AX-160, CZ to new CZ 805 etc. Similary "major design variation" or "major design changes" or new rifle design should have been launched in 1990s or atleast "now" But I think there is specific refusal to allow DRDO or OFB to put out a new design. The cost for designing a new rifle is around Rs. 10 crores. So we are ready to give Rs. 10,000 crore orders to foreigners but not ready to design an indigenous rifle.

5.56 LMG - no new design - Global RFP is the fad disguised as IAR

GPMG in 7.62 and 5.56mm - no new design - Global RFP is the fad disguised as Light GPMG

HMG - No Indian design

AGL-No Indian design

Anti-material rifle - will not buy Indian

Sniper rifle-No Indian design

120mm mortar - Israeli product being pushed over DRDO-OFB

155mm howziters - less said the better


Welcome to 4 th largest economy, 3 rd largest Army and 3 rd Largest small arms producer in the world - India

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Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby RayC » 21 Feb 2010 11:13

Interesting point.

Let us see the requirement of each weapon and then evaluate if we require new versions of the same item.

We must not forget the terrain and the operational doctrines that we have matched to that of the adversaries.

Pistol. Who all use the pistol? The rationale is those who are commanders (of certain arms) and who will not be involved in close quarter battle in the normal course of combat, viz tank commanders. It is also for those who have to carry heavy weapons. Now the issue is that if one who is authorised a pistol has to confront the enemy, it will be at very close quarters. Therefore, it is assumed that he will be within the pistol range. Hence, does the current pistol meet the bill?

Do we need a new pistol? If so, why? What is the extra lethality that is required?

Carbine. The rationale is same. However, they are more applicable to those who are in close combat with the enemy but are manning heavy weapons/ commanders and thus cannot be burdened with the weight of a rifle in addition. Is out current weapon not fit? The only fault that I experienced is that it has a tendency to ‘cook off’.

Rifle. Of late I am told it is felt that the INSAS, though accurate, is supposed to be fragile and has more stoppages than say the AK 47. Debatable. It is just that one has got used to the AK 47 which is rugged and practically maintenance free and unlike the BRF enthusiast who are so keen on ‘cosmetic enhanced’ weaponry, the soldier is more comfortable in having rough and ready and rugged weaponry that characterise their own psyche!

It is inertia all around, decision makers and designers that upgrades are not undertaken for the current system.

5.56 LMG. It has not been successful as far as I know. Catch the DRDO by the scruff of the neck or go in for import. The only advantage of having a 5.56 LMG is that it will ease out the logistic problem wherein the rifle and the LMG ammunition will be common. In combat, when the LMG ammunition is running low, one milks the rifleman’s ammunition and gives it to the LMG team.

GPMG. Where is the requirement for the same?

HMG. Not required. The AMR is adequate.

AGL. We can always reverse engineer as we did with the SLR.

AMR. Will buy Indian when compatible in lethality weight and carriage with what we have currently in the inventory.

Sniper Rifle. This is my view that when the requirement is minimal IA-wise, then it is cheaper to buy than design and set up a production line.

120MM Mor. Israeli weapon being pushed? I thought they are phased out and will become Field Artillery since with the lethality and accuracy of the current Field Artillery and the operational doctrines, 120s are obsolescent.

155mm. There is a requirement for better 155s. They are our lynchpins.

One thing with all humility I would like to state is that at the grassroot level, we don't bother if the weapon is Indian or foreign. All we bother about is that does it work, will it save lives and will it achieve the purpose for which it is designed and given to us! We are not bothered about what the glossies tell us or how cosmetically enhanced. At the end of the day, it has to work optimally so that the Nation is saved, our reputation is saved and we are saved!

We are aware that we are paid to do our job and we better deliver!

We cannot let the Nation down.

Naam, Namak, Nishan!

Two excellent commercial magazines have hit the stalls. Salute to the Indian Soldier and Purple Beret. Both are bareboned of gobbledygooks and big talk. They give an insight on not only the strateic issues, but also the normal life of the Indian soldier (meaning all IA, IN, and IAF) and their families!

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Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby nachiket » 21 Feb 2010 11:37

Why does the design of the Assault rifle have to be Indian? All we have to make sure is that we can manufacture the rifle completely in India - right down to the last screw. The design of the L1A1 SLR wasn't Indian. It seems to have served the country pretty well(and still does). Since it could be manufactured in-house there was never a shortfall. That's all that matters aside from the rifle fulfilling all the Quality requirements of course. An assault rifle isn't a hi-tech ballistic missile that must be designed and developed indigenously. If the Army thinks that the INSAS has certain problems and it can do its job better with another rifle its no big deal. Just make sure we can manufacture the rifles in India.

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Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby RayC » 21 Feb 2010 11:58

nachiket wrote:Why does the design of the Assault rifle have to be Indian? All we have to make sure is that we can manufacture the rifle completely in India - right down to the last screw. The design of the L1A1 SLR wasn't Indian. It seems to have served the country pretty well(and still does). Since it could be manufactured in-house there was never a shortfall. That's all that matters aside from the rifle fulfilling all the Quality requirements of course. An assault rifle isn't a hi-tech ballistic missile that must be designed and developed indigenously. If the Army thinks that the INSAS has certain problems and it can do its job better with another rifle its no big deal. Just make sure we can manufacture the rifles in India.


There was a misgivings over the SLR since it was reverse engineering and it was weathered through.

The INSAS is a amalgam of various weapons systems to suit the Indian requirement and that required designing it so as to be able to mesh. Thus, designing is an important factor.

There is a shortfall of all weaponry made by OFB. Lazy attitude, bureaucratic shenanigans and Union disruptions. We are always having slippages! Shoddy manufacture and thus the INSAS is said to have many stoppages! BRF members maybe jingo about Indianess, how about passing it on to these chaps in the DRDO and OFB and the damned Unions?

If Indians can excel in foreign lands, have we wondered why we flounder on our own soil?

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Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby Gaur » 21 Feb 2010 12:35

Bheem wrote:INSAS is 1970s design. All contemporay designs have been upgraded like G41 to G36, M16 to HK416, FNC to SCAR, Galil to Tavor, Beretta to AX-160, CZ to new CZ 805 etc. Similary "major design variation" or "major design changes" or new rifle design should have been launched in 1990s or atleast "now" But I think there is specific refusal to allow DRDO or OFB to put out a new design. The cost for designing a new rifle is around Rs. 10 crores. So we are ready to give Rs. 10,000 crore orders to foreigners but not ready to design an indigenous rifle.

I fail to understand one thing. What exactly does INSAS lack to warrant a new rifle? The only thing that comes to mind is picaatinny rail. But even that has been incorporated in excalibur. Excalibur is lighter and shorter than INSAS. So what is the problem? Has it been tested by IA? What were the complaints, if any?
All the problems in INSAS are due to poor quality control of OFB. So, getting TOT of some foreign rifle and producing it will not solve the problem as the problem lies in production itself.

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Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby shukla » 21 Feb 2010 18:56

Tall claims?? DRDO claims to have built a gun to pierce bullet proof vests...

The SMG is 100 percent indigenous and specially designed to fight against militants in close combat. Its ammunition can pierce through bullet-proof jackets," a DRDO official told IANS at the DefExpo 2010 land and naval systems exhibition here. "The weapon incorporates a laser sight and has an effective range of 200 metres," the official added. "It is very light in weight and can be used as a single and multiple shot weapon," the official said, adding that in rapid mode, it can fire 700 rounds per minute.


http://www.expressbuzz.com/edition/stor ... IsSU=&SEO=

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Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby Gaur » 21 Feb 2010 19:02

^^
Err..what is wrong with that? The article is about MSMC displayed at Def Expo.

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Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby shukla » 21 Feb 2010 19:06

Gaur wrote:^^
Err..what is wrong with that? The article is about MSMC displayed at Def Expo.


Nothing at all.. Just hoping that they weren't using Indian made vests to test on :wink:

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Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby Gaur » 21 Feb 2010 19:23

^^
Oh! You are skeptical about "piercing bulletproof vests" part?
Nothing wrong with that. Any SMG/Carbine/Assault rifle using ammo of more than 9mm caliber are marketed as such.
Eg: mp7 also says the same thing and it uses lower caliber rounds as compared to MSMC.

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Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby shukla » 21 Feb 2010 19:39

Gaur wrote:^^
Oh! You are skeptical about "piercing bulletproof vests" part?
Nothing wrong with that. Any SMG/Carbine/Assault rifle using ammo of more than 9mm caliber are marketed as such.
Eg: mp7 also says the same thing and it uses lower caliber rounds as compared to MSMC.


Point noted :)

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Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby kaldag » 21 Feb 2010 20:07

RayC wrote:There is a shortfall of all weaponry made by OFB. Lazy attitude, bureaucratic shenanigans and Union disruptions. We are always having slippages! Shoddy manufacture and thus the INSAS is said to have many stoppages! BRF members maybe jingo about Indianess, how about passing it on to these chaps in the DRDO and OFB and the damned Unions?

If Indians can excel in foreign lands, have we wondered why we flounder on our own soil?


RayC sir, I don't understand your perennial antipathy towards the DRDO. I understand it with the OFB though.
Times have changed and its time you change too. You reflect the very attitude that the IA has towards the DRDO.

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Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby Bheem » 21 Feb 2010 20:53

A very general defence of Army tendency to love imports. And ignoring its failure to work with DRDO-OFB-PSU-Pvt sector to develop new products. We have Military + Para military + Police + Export requirements of around 2-3 million small arms but we want to import our requirements from two bit foreign parties, whose annual production is less that one day production of OFB.
RayC wrote:Interesting point.

Let us see the requirement of each weapon and then evaluate if we require new versions of the same item.

We must not forget the terrain and the operational doctrines that we have matched to that of the adversaries.

Pistol. Who all use the pistol? The rationale is those who are commanders (of certain arms) and who will not be involved in close quarter battle in the normal course of combat, viz tank commanders. It is also for those who have to carry heavy weapons. Now the issue is that if one who is authorised a pistol has to confront the enemy, it will be at very close quarters. Therefore, it is assumed that he will be within the pistol range. Hence, does the current pistol meet the bill?

Do we need a new pistol? If so, why? What is the extra lethality that is required?

Answer – New pistols like Glock and Desert Eagle are being imported, so I wonder if MoD & Home Ministry agrees to your take

Carbine. The rationale is same. However, they are more applicable to those who are in close combat with the enemy but are manning heavy weapons/ commanders and thus cannot be burdened with the weight of a rifle in addition. Is out current weapon not fit? The only fault that I experienced is that it has a tendency to ‘cook off’.

Answer – SMG like MP5 and Uzi are being imported which are themselves 30 year old design.

Rifle. Of late I am told it is felt that the INSAS, though accurate, is supposed to be fragile and has more stoppages than say the AK 47. Debatable. It is just that one has got used to the AK 47 which is rugged and practically maintenance free and unlike the BRF enthusiast who are so keen on ‘cosmetic enhanced’ weaponry, the soldier is more comfortable in having rough and ready and rugged weaponry that characterise their own psyche! It is inertia all around, decision makers and designers that upgrades are not undertaken for the current system.

Answer – RFP for U$ 2 Billion has been issued, why is Army stopping DRDO from working on new variant?

5.56 LMG. It has not been successful as far as I know. Catch the DRDO by the scruff of the neck or go in for import. The only advantage of having a 5.56 LMG is that it will ease out the logistic problem wherein the rifle and the LMG ammunition will be common. In combat, when the LMG ammunition is running low, one milks the rifleman’s ammunition and gives it to the LMG team.

Answer-Why not hire a few consultants and iron out the problems? Or develop a new variant from scratch?

GPMG. Where is the requirement for the same?

Answer – Global RFP issued

HMG. Not required. The AMR is adequate.

Answer- South African AMR was adequate but since OFB makes it, we need imports

AGL. We can always reverse engineer as we did with the SLR.

Answer- who is stopping the reverse engineering? And SLR plant was imported and that is hardly reverse engineering.

AMR. Will buy Indian when compatible in lethality weight and carriage with what we have currently in the inventory.

Answer- Any Indian babu will proud of this mumbo jumbo, South African AMR was adequate but since OFB makes it, we need imports


Sniper Rifle. This is my view that when the requirement is minimal IA-wise, then it is cheaper to buy than design and set up a production line.

Answer – Nonsense- We have requirements of around 25,000 DMRs, and it is completely cost effective to make them. Except USA & China our requirements are the largest. We importing from Israelis whose Population is smaller then Delhi

120MM Mor. Israeli weapon being pushed? I thought they are phased out and will become Field Artillery since with the lethality and accuracy of the current Field Artillery and the operational doctrines, 120s are obsolescent.

Answer- 120mm mortars obsolescent, difficult to believe, pls give more details?? New doctrine to my knowledge calls for 120mm mortars plus 155mm howitzers.

155mm. There is a requirement for better 155s. They are our lynchpins.

Answer- And Army has not issued its GSQRS since last 20 years so that any Indian party cannot develop it.

One thing with all humility I would like to state is that at the grassroot level, we don't bother if the weapon is Indian or foreign. All we bother about is that does it work, will it save lives and will it achieve the purpose for which it is designed and given to us! We are not bothered about what the glossies tell us or how cosmetically enhanced. At the end of the day, it has to work optimally so that the Nation is saved, our reputation is saved and we are saved!

Great answer- at last it boils down to this- We great Indian generals will not care for the Indian economy or Indian future but use the pretext of lives of Indian Jawans to import and import and import. We will always take credit for victories but blame defeats on politicians.

Hail the Brass – Golf, Pvt Zoos, Shepherds who inform about intruders and “do and die” spirt which means no plans except plans to import and import.




Please Note- There is absence of even One instance in RayCs answer about Indian Army working for development of any “new product” from the above. I rest my case

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Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby Bheem » 21 Feb 2010 20:57

RayC wrote:
nachiket wrote:Why does the design of the Assault rifle have to be Indian? All we have to make sure is that we can manufacture the rifle completely in India - right down to the last screw. The design of the L1A1 SLR wasn't Indian. It seems to have served the country pretty well(and still does). Since it could be manufactured in-house there was never a shortfall. That's all that matters aside from the rifle fulfilling all the Quality requirements of course. An assault rifle isn't a hi-tech ballistic missile that must be designed and developed indigenously. If the Army thinks that the INSAS has certain problems and it can do its job better with another rifle its no big deal. Just make sure we can manufacture the rifles in India.


There was a misgivings over the SLR since it was reverse engineering and it was weathered through.

The INSAS is a amalgam of various weapons systems to suit the Indian requirement and that required designing it so as to be able to mesh. Thus, designing is an important factor.

There is a shortfall of all weaponry made by OFB. Lazy attitude, bureaucratic shenanigans and Union disruptions. We are always having slippages! Shoddy manufacture and thus the INSAS is said to have many stoppages! BRF members maybe jingo about Indianess, how about passing it on to these chaps in the DRDO and OFB and the damned Unions?

If Indians can excel in foreign lands, have we wondered why we flounder on our own soil?


Has the Army chief ever demanded publicaly that Pvt Sector be allowed to manufacture DRDO designs? Why do brass is always seen pushing deals like subs, fighters, cannons which are outright imports. Let us first the chief use his financial powers (which are adequate to sanction a budget for rifle design) to help design a new assault rifle or carbine or pistol or even a lollipop

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Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby Surya » 21 Feb 2010 21:15

I have been crying for a Army or Air force big shot to blow his top publicly and resign ever since the AJT saga. Lets see how the Govt can continue with chalta hai then.

Like AM Barbora did and more.

Sigh

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Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby RayC » 21 Feb 2010 22:54

Bheem wrote:A very general defence of Army tendency to love imports. And ignoring its failure to work with DRDO-OFB-PSU-Pvt sector to develop new products. We have Military + Para military + Police + Export requirements of around 2-3 million small arms but we want to import our requirements from two bit foreign parties, whose annual production is less that one day production of OFB.


Let us view it this way.

You are a business CEO and you find that you require 50 computers and you have only 20 and that too not fast enough for your task. What will you do? Sit back and wait till India makes super computers?

You have to fill up gaps.

One cannot legislate timings for when a war is beought upon you!

Answer – New pistols like Glock and Desert Eagle are being imported, so I wonder if MoD & Home Ministry agrees to your take


If not why not? And you feel it should be done, please lets us know why. Would be grateful to be educated.

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Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby RayC » 21 Feb 2010 22:55

Carbine. The rationale is same. However, they are more applicable to those who are in close combat with the enemy but are manning heavy weapons/ commanders and thus cannot be burdened with the weight of a rifle in addition. Is out current weapon not fit? The only fault that I experienced is that it has a tendency to ‘cook off’.

Answer – SMG like MP5 and Uzi are being imported which are themselves 30 year old design.


So, why buy?

Rifle. Of late I am told it is felt that the INSAS, though accurate, is supposed to be fragile and has more stoppages than say the AK 47. Debatable. It is just that one has got used to the AK 47 which is rugged and practically maintenance free and unlike the BRF enthusiast who are so keen on ‘cosmetic enhanced’ weaponry, the soldier is more comfortable in having rough and ready and rugged weaponry that characterise their own psyche! It is inertia all around, decision makers and designers that upgrades are not undertaken for the current system.

Answer – RFP for U$ 2 Billion has been issued, why is Army stopping DRDO from working on new variant?


DRDO does not come under the Armed Forces and none have stopped them from developing and so it is not a correct assumption that the armed forces are any impediment.

5.56 LMG. It has not been successful as far as I know. Catch the DRDO by the scruff of the neck or go in for import. The only advantage of having a 5.56 LMG is that it will ease out the logistic problem wherein the rifle and the LMG ammunition will be common. In combat, when the LMG ammunition is running low, one milks the rifleman’s ammunition and gives it to the LMG team.

Answer-Why not hire a few consultants and iron out the problems? Or develop a new variant from scratch?


I am not the MOD. Can't answer!



GPMG. Where is the requirement for the same?

Answer – Global RFP issued


Google and see what a GMP does!

[
b]HMG.[/b] Not required. The AMR is adequate.

Answer- South African AMR was adequate but since OFB makes it, we need imports


Sure. But we must make our own.

AGL. We can always reverse engineer as we did with the SLR.

Answer- who is stopping the reverse engineering? And SLR plant was imported and that is hardly reverse engineering.


Read the details on SLR.

AMR. Will buy Indian when compatible in lethality weight and carriage with what we have currently in the inventory.

Answer- Any Indian babu will proud of this mumbo jumbo, South African AMR was adequate but since OFB makes it, we need imports



Unfair statement.

Sniper Rifle. This is my view that when the requirement is minimal IA-wise, then it is cheaper to buy than design and set up a production line.

Answer – Nonsense- We have requirements of around 25,000 DMRs, and it is completely cost effective to make them. Except USA & China our requirements are the largest. We importing from Israelis whose Population is smaller then Delhi


Calculate the cost and the life!

120MM Mor. Israeli weapon being pushed? I thought they are phased out and will become Field Artillery since with the lethality and accuracy of the current Field Artillery and the operational doctrines, 120s are obsolescent.

Answer- 120mm mortars obsolescent, difficult to believe, pls give more details?? New doctrine to my knowledge calls for 120mm mortars plus 155mm howitzers.


[
b]155mm. [/b]There is a requirement for better 155s. They are our lynchpins.

Answer- And Army has not issued its GSQRS since last 20 years so that any Indian party cannot develop it.


If they have not done it, please suggest. What is your idea that betters the i55s?

Do let us know since you know more as to it's (129mm Mors) tactical use.

One thing with all humility I would like to state is that at the grassroot level, we don't bother if the weapon is Indian or foreign. All we bother about is that does it work, will it save lives and will it achieve the purpose for which it is designed and given to us! We are not bothered about what the glossies tell us or how cosmetically enhanced. At the end of the day, it has to work optimally so that the Nation is saved, our reputation is saved and we are saved!

Great answer- at last it boils down to this- We great Indian generals will not care for the Indian economy or Indian future but use the pretext of lives of Indian Jawans to import and import and import. We will always take credit for victories but blame defeats on politicians.

Hail the Brass – Golf, Pvt Zoos, Shepherds who inform about intruders and “do and die” spirt which means no plans except plans to import and import.




You are right, we must await indigenous weapons to fill the gap if the war is on us tomorrow just to please you. Our lives are cheap while you sleep under your blanket and worrying about your taxes and the budget. With all humility I would state that if you can guarantee that there will be no war tomorrow or till the indigenous weapon is developed, I am sure the armed forces will not be fools to put their lives on line. As you would not like to die, the armed forces personnel also do not like to die unless there is a good reason to do so.

It is Armed Forces who care about the economy and that is why they are grinning and bearing it that the economy cannot give them the equipment that they require! Compare it with Pakistan! So, don't gloat and debunk the sacrifices that the armed forces are going through even in peace time, at the expense of their safety if the war breaks out tomorrow!

Pvt Zoos etc. True.Hardly private. It is to ensure the species are not extinct. Anti national, right? There are only 1411 Tigers left!

Who has done maximum for ecology? Are you aware the number of trees planted by the Army or who is responsible for the Greening of Kutch or saving the Gujarat wild asses or preventing the Arab Shieks from bustard hunting?

I suggest you find out more before you give your 'sagacious' comments.




Please Note- There is absence of even One instance in RayCs answer about Indian Army working for development of any “new product” from the above. I rest my case


I rest no case since BRF is not a Court of law!

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Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby Avik » 21 Feb 2010 23:24

Bheem Bhai,
I dont understand this tendency to blame the Army for not opting for OFB or DRDO designed equipment. The Army is like an user which, if offered a range of options will opt for the one which is optimum considering multiple factors , including cost, supply chain, spare parts etc. I am sure you are well aware of this. If we as a country ( or MoD) decide to give particular weightages to indigenously manufactured eqpt. , then so be it. But the Govt, then has to have a clear policy to the W&E Directorate stating that indigenously manufactured products will have much higher priority compared to internationally sourced ones and the country should be prepared to wait for indigenous equipment, notwithstanding the state of military preparedness.
As far as the DRDO angle is concerned, it is a designer ( a R&D unit). At best, the DRDO as a designer, is atleast one link away from the user. That crucial link between the designed and the user is the manufacturer. The user typically interfaces with the manufacturer. Hence, the IAF interfaces with HAL, IN with the Dockyards and the IA with the Ordnance Factories. Now however good a DRDO design is , the final product is an Ordnance Factory (other than missiles which come out of BDL)output. The IA hence, interfaces mostly with the OFB. Now, I dont want to go into a long debate on how good or bad OFB's output is, but the key fact is that starting from Shaktiman Trucks to IFGs, there is a lot to be desired in OFB's output quality. So to a large extent, IA is really reflecting its apprehensions about OFB when it seems to be dragging its feet on DRDO products. I have a feeling that if DRDO eqpt. is manufactured by Indian private players, the sailing would be a lot more smoother (e.g, we hardly hear any complaints about vehicles manufcatured by TATA and AL that is being used by the IA). Hence, in my view, the nub of the matter is really the production quality and the agency reposnible for the mess is OFB. DRDO is to a large extent getting caught in the negative feedback because, most of its equipment gets manufactured by OFB.
Finally, while I can understand the imperative to source defence equipment from Indian manufacturers, I think a lot of us have a blinkered vision and have set these standards only for the IA ( and the defence forces). Why not extend the same analogy to the power sector , where 80% of the new power equipment is being sourced from China or telecom equipment where a similarly large voulme comes from overseas. I really fail to understand why we are unable to push a Reliance/ GMR/ Jindal to utilise equipment from BHEL rather than allow imports from China? If we advocate patience to the IA to sit over endless chai-biskoot sessions with DRDO and OFB to help the designer and the manufacturer, why cant we as a nation show the same level of patience towards BHEL or C-Dot or ITI? So what, if the power or telecom capacity comes online a couple of years later. Again, on a different note, no one in the power sector blames research agencies like Central Power Research Institute for the state of indigenous capability in the power sector. But everyone from the PM down, forces BHEL, HEC and the private sector ( ala L&T, Bharat Forge) manufacturers to buckle up. So why not impose the same kind pof pressures on the OFB to shape up?

Sorry , for the long post, but....

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Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby nachiket » 22 Feb 2010 02:49

Bheem wrote:Answer – New pistols like Glock and Desert Eagle are being imported, so I wonder if MoD & Home Ministry agrees to your take


Desert Eagle? :eek: Do you have a source for that? The Desert Eagle is pretty useless as a combat sidearm with its 7 round clip, super huge recoil and even louder noise.

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Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby Surya » 22 Feb 2010 02:53

Avik

Then some Army chief or senior officer should stand up and holler.

He should demand that the pvt sector be more involved etc. etc.

And resign if things do not move. (Just realised even Shukla is suggesting that :) )

While agreeing that the OFBs and some PSUs are a joke to quote Spinster - looking for imports on things like pistols and rifles is pathetic for a large economy like ours.

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Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby nachiket » 22 Feb 2010 02:54

Surya wrote:Avik

Then some Army chief or senior officer should stand up and holler.

He should demand that the pvt sector be more involved etc. etc.

And resign if things do not move. (Just realised even Shukla is suggesting that :) )

While agreeing that the OFBs and some PSUs are a joke to quote Spinster - looking for imports on things like pistols and rifles is pathetic for a large economy like ours.


Who is Spinster?

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Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby Surya » 22 Feb 2010 03:01

our friend umrao john aka spinster

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Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby ParGha » 22 Feb 2010 03:51

nachiket wrote:
Bheem wrote:Answer – New pistols like Glock and Desert Eagle are being imported, so I wonder if MoD & Home Ministry agrees to your take

Desert Eagle? :eek: Do you have a source for that? The Desert Eagle is pretty useless as a combat sidearm with its 7 round clip, super huge recoil and even louder noise.

Methinks he meant Baby Desert Eagle (i.e. Barak), which supposedly was being considered as a sidearm for some of the special operations forces. It would still be a senseless purchase... If they are insistent on getting a new set of imported pistols, they should just buy more Glock-19s and mitigate the logistical nightmare by sharing a common platform with the NSG, MARCOS and SPG.

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Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby nachiket » 22 Feb 2010 04:00

ParGha wrote:Methinks he meant Baby Desert Eagle (i.e. Barak), which supposedly was being considered as a sidearm for some of the special operations forces. It would still be a senseless purchase... If they are insistent on getting a new set of imported pistols, they should just buy more Glock-19s and mitigate the logistical nightmare by sharing a common platform with the NSG, MARCOS and SPG.


Ah! you mean the Jericho. Yes that is actually supposed to be a pretty neat weapon. Although what you say regarding commonality between forces is true.

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Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby Gaur » 22 Feb 2010 11:36

Bheem wrote:We great Indian generals will not care for the Indian economy or Indian future but use the pretext of lives of Indian Jawans to import and import and import. We will always take credit for victories but blame defeats on politicians.

Hail the Brass – Golf, Pvt Zoos, Shepherds who inform about intruders and “do and die” spirt which means no plans except plans to import and import.[/color]

I do not know how RayC Sir managed to keep his cool after reading this. I am not from defence sector and even I had problem with this statement. I agree that IA Generals have not shown the best attitude but there is a way to describe it. And when has IA blamed politicians for any defeat?

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Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby RayC » 22 Feb 2010 13:11

Gaur wrote:
Bheem wrote:We great Indian generals will not care for the Indian economy or Indian future but use the pretext of lives of Indian Jawans to import and import and import. We will always take credit for victories but blame defeats on politicians.

Hail the Brass – Golf, Pvt Zoos, Shepherds who inform about intruders and “do and die” spirt which means no plans except plans to import and import.[/color]

I do not know how RayC Sir managed to keep his cool after reading this. I am not from defence sector and even I had problem with this statement. I agree that IA Generals have not shown the best attitude but there is a way to describe it. And when has IA blamed politicians for any defeat?


One does not lose one's cool for every uninitiated statement.

One has to know of the Ecological improvement the IA has done for the country. The IA does not publicise it. It is IA's fault.

If the person visits Gujarat he will observe the effort that the IA has done to green Kutch and save the wild asses and the bustards (from Shieks given perimission by the GOI to shoot).

If he visits Cantts he can observe the greening that the IA does. In fact, the Ladakhis are furious since the IA has brought in rains which ruin their mud houses!

Zoo was made to conserve the rare animals that were being slaughtered for their pelts and skin. There was no NGOs in Ladakh to do so. Now, if we allow endangered species to die, I am sure that would to this person appear, correct.

Only those who are not aware of the realities will think that the IA is bothered about import and export vs our lives, jawans and officers.

The logic astounds me since camaraderie is the only thing that sustains the Army.

Such men who, without knowing reality, act 'in the know' should don the uniform ad serve in combat and hardship environments like the Siachen and then give their disparaging (if I may use this word) comments!

I find these statement humorous and so I prefer not to comment since how can one debate with those not in the know of the reality biased?
Last edited by RayC on 22 Feb 2010 19:17, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby Gaur » 22 Feb 2010 13:37

RayC wrote: In fact, the Ladakhis are furious since the IA has brought in rains which ruin their mud houses!

:rotfl:

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Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby ASPuar » 22 Feb 2010 13:49

Amazing how people who have never held or fired an INSAS in their lives feel free to make pronouncements like "Its only problem is picatinny rails", and "OFB quality control".

And then we have statements like this:

Surya wrote:Avik

Then some Army chief or senior officer should stand up and holler.

He should demand that the pvt sector be more involved etc. etc.

And resign if things do not move. (Just realised even Shukla is suggesting that :) )

While agreeing that the OFBs and some PSUs are a joke to quote Spinster - looking for imports on things like pistols and rifles is pathetic for a large economy like ours.


Im sure you too, have a job, or some work. In that job, you too, would find certain things unpalatable. Do you resign/quit doing what you do, for every one of them?

"Then he should resign" is an easy thing to say, except when it is one's own life's work on the line. And remember, it is his entire lifes work.

As far as "Stand up and Holler" is concerned, several army chiefs have. Do you know what happens when an army chief "stands up and hollers"? The bureaucrats scream "COUP! COUP! INSUBORDINATION!". And the media takes it up in a frenzy, and the politicians curb the armys facilities and priviliges further, since the bureaucrats advise that this is the best way to keep those wayward armymen in line!

What gentlemen like Bheem say, is of course simply the rantings of a person who doesnt know better. But that doesnt mean that the uninitiated should not get acquainted with the realities of life before opening their mouths and braying.

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Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby Gaur » 22 Feb 2010 14:19

ASPuar wrote:Amazing how people who have never held or fired an INSAS in their lives feel free to make pronouncements like "Its only problem is picatinny rails", and "OFB quality control".

What is wrong with the statement? I am seriously curious as to what other problems INSAS has. I have talked to many Army Officers and OFB quality control seemed to be their only gripe.

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Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby ASPuar » 22 Feb 2010 14:36

Hi Gaur, sorry, didnt mean to call you out on that.

Nothing wrong with your statement per se, in fact, it is probably correct, except that I would rely more on the official assessment of the army, than hearsay.

It annoys me to see random aspersions being cast on the entire army, and its general staff by people who dont know much, have read a few books by Tom Clancy, read an article or two by an Indian "security" analyst, and think they know it all.

These types who have their pet indigenous project (after reading about it at BR, and watching a few promo videos on youtube), are particularly to be watched out for, for the quality of their diatribes against the Army General staff.

While Im all for having indigenous capabilities, and I support DRDO 100%, I support the army 100% too. And one has to understand that DRDO has constantly overpromised, and underdelivered, and furthermore, refused to cooperate with the end user in terms of incorporating their needs. This is a problem that needs to be addressed, because in the end, the customer is always king, and if your product isnt up to world standards, it will lose out.

But most of all, it annoys me that misinformed newbies like this fellow, are permitted to flourish and give flight to their oafish views under the new regime at BR. Let us dissect this latest round of BS:

Bheem wrote:Has the Army chief ever demanded publicaly that Pvt Sector be allowed to manufacture DRDO designs? Why do brass is always seen pushing deals like subs, fighters, cannons which are outright imports. Let us first the chief use his financial powers (which are adequate to sanction a budget for rifle design) to help design a new assault rifle or carbine or pistol or even a lollipop


It is not the army chiefs job to do DRDOs PR. He has his own job to do.

If there was an indigenous sub, or fighter, or "Cannon" (ha), the "Brass" would be all for it. But there isnt. And this is not for lack of money invested.

Oh, and in the mean time, there is the trivial matter of a nation to defend. The work of (a) submarines, (b) fighters and (c) "cannons", cannot be done (respectively), by (a) A scuba diver with a harpoon, (b) A hawai sepoy tied to a hang-glider with an Igla, (c) A sepoy with a catapult and a 155mm shell. :twisted:

So until we have an indigenous alternative, you will hear the "brass" asking for imports of the tools which their subordinates need to manufacture our national defense.

And now, perhaps "Bheem" should stop attempting to make strategic policy until he gets out of Class IX, and we will all get some respite from his half baked posturings.

Oh, and the army chief's discretionary financial powers are not meant for "sanctioning developement" of firearms. There are rules of business in govt which are meant to be stuck to.

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Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby RayC » 22 Feb 2010 19:30

I will state that nothing in life is perfect. The Armed Forces are no exception.

It is not a easy decision to resign and even if a General resigns, it will be the talk of the media for a few days and then forgotten. It would make no difference to the GOI or the IAS since they are impervious! End result: ZERO!

En masse resignation would be the answer to shake up the Govt, but then that would be 'collective insubordination', which in clearer terms means mutiny. And that means court martial. It means that they will then be without pension, gratuity etc.

I wonder if those who advocate hollering and resigning would do it themselves, if they were in such a position.

It would be incorrect to feel that the Generals do not want to modernise the Army. They do. But then the money and procurement procedure is with the Govt.

Of course quality control is a very important issue. OFB has slipped up on this many a time including shortage in production. Yet, to be fair to the OFB, they are riddled with bureaucratic maze as also the Unions, who do exactly what they wish!

Therefore, as Gen Malik stated, the Army fights with what it gets or words to that effect!

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Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby Surya » 22 Feb 2010 19:44

ASpuar, RayC

If the job I held was such that decisions that were taken would impact lives etc. - Yes I would. But to make it easier for your argument - lets assume I cannot BUT then I am not an Indian Army officer sworn to an oath which has much higher demands than my measly civilian life makes of me.

In fact all the more easier to do at the end of your career. I would not expect a Major to do it.

Yeah a Lt Gen told me that doing so would mean your pension gets tangled in mysterious bureaucratic trapdoors. I am sure that could happen but how can a gunner watch not a single modern gun inducted for 20 yrs???

But now that Col Shukla has mentioned it - I would go and put this question on his blog.



RayC said

It is not a easy decision to resign and even if a General resigns, it will be the talk of the media for a few days and then forgotten. It would make no difference to the GOI or the IAS since they are impervious! End result: ZERO!



Agree - it will have to be a very "clean" General who has superb PR skills to keep it up.

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Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby ramana » 24 Feb 2010 11:28

Very inspiring life story of Kalashnikov on History Channel. He was inspired to design the AK-47 after seeing many of his comrades die due to lack of good rifles.

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Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby RayC » 24 Feb 2010 12:26

But now that Col Shukla has mentioned it - I would go and put this question on his blog.


Do so.

And if you want to get him to research and reply, just ask him if he is just a 'hands on' Armoured Corps officer or is he a qualified Tank Technology expert and if he is the Indian Brigadier Richard E Simpkins!

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Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby ArmenT » 24 Feb 2010 13:14

RayC wrote:The INSAS is a amalgam of various weapons systems to suit the Indian requirement and that required designing it so as to be able to mesh. Thus, designing is an important factor.

There is a shortfall of all weaponry made by OFB. Lazy attitude, bureaucratic shenanigans and Union disruptions. We are always having slippages! Shoddy manufacture and thus the INSAS is said to have many stoppages! BRF members maybe jingo about Indianess, how about passing it on to these chaps in the DRDO and OFB and the damned Unions?

If Indians can excel in foreign lands, have we wondered why we flounder on our own soil?

I think the mistake was made when assigning the design and manufacture to two organizations (DRDO and OFB) without any competition whatsoever. Maybe if the MoD had announced a set of specs and opened the contract for entries from any Indian manufacturer (or any other country's manufacturer, as long as the manufacturing was done 100% in India), the results might have been different.

The problems are less from the DRDO end -- most reports indicate that DRDO's design satisfies the requirements for rifle and LMG. However, they had less success with the carbine. Perhaps a private manufacturer might have been able to do better, but as there were no other organizations besides DRDO allowed to submit designs, no one will really know for sure.

It looks like most of the issues are from the OFB end. Instead of using OFB to manufacture the weaponry, perhaps there is still time to float a tender for private manufacturers to make the weaponry per DRDO's design. There are plenty of medium and large manufacturers around in India that could potentially do a better quality job than what OFB is doing.

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Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby ParGha » 24 Feb 2010 17:47

ArmenT wrote:I think the mistake was made when assigning the design and manufacture to two organizations (DRDO and OFB) without any competition whatsoever. Maybe if the MoD had announced a set of specs and opened the contract for entries from any Indian manufacturer (or any other country's manufacturer, as long as the manufacturing was done 100% in India), the results might have been different.

The problems are less from the DRDO end -- most reports indicate that DRDO's design satisfies the requirements for rifle and LMG. However, they had less success with the carbine. Perhaps a private manufacturer might have been able to do better, but as there were no other organizations besides DRDO allowed to submit designs, no one will really know for sure.

It looks like most of the issues are from the OFB end. Instead of using OFB to manufacture the weaponry, perhaps there is still time to float a tender for private manufacturers to make the weaponry per DRDO's design. There are plenty of medium and large manufacturers around in India that could potentially do a better quality job than what OFB is doing.


ArmenT,

In fact there WAS another design originally developed by East Germans which was actually the impetus for this program. When E. Germans canceled it a combination of FNC, G-41 and Steyr AUG was apparently adopted as the basis for a new indigenous family of small arms. All of this was in the late 1980s. Do consider that time period when you say private Indian manufacturers could have been contracted.

As for the "carbine", there was no official requirement for it in the INSAS plan - which was straight out of the Steyr AUG plan, i.e. a standard rifle, a compact rifle for airborne/mech, and a heavy-barreled LMG. The compact rifle (i.e. the folding stock version) was delivered late, which was indeed a cause of some disgruntlement. If it could go into a larger production, many other roles could open up for it - including a place as a junior officers' primary weapon. Methinks the 5.56x30mm is someone's harebrained copy of Colt's failed proposal from the 1970s.

OFB has been penny-wise and pound-foolish in its manufacture. Some of the fragility issues (i.e. the most common ones) can easily be fixed if they bucked up. Money saved can be better spent on many other critical systems. Overall this program has mostly been successful and NECESSARY.

Looking back, if there was one thing India could have done different, it would have been for the Ministry of External Affairs to buy a production line for AKMs, RPKs and some cheap $#!+ grenades from some crumbling Soviet republic. In the short-term it would have domestically addressed the internal security needs while INSAS came online. In the long-term it would have added to the vocabulary of diplomatic talk that MEA fellows can talk. It is still not too late to do that.

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Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby ramana » 24 Feb 2010 22:48

ArmenT, In the video of Kalashnikov on History Intl series, 'Guns of the World", he says its the allocation of generous toelrances which makes the AK-47 rugged. He compares the M-16 and says its in the area of reliability that the Ak-47 scores over it. And he allocated those tolerances based on his own experiences in the early years of WWII as private who was wounded and saw his comrades dying from guns jamming and becoming useless. The early model stamped desin also had blockages and they went for a mchained reciever which after an initial run reverted to stampings.

Looks like INSAS could have used such user insight. And quick decision making by those responsible. In FSU if one didnt make the correct decisons Off to Siberia.

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Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby ramana » 24 Feb 2010 22:51

RayC wrote:The INSAS rifle is based on the famous Kalashnikov AK-47 action, but with many modifications. The basic gas-operated action (long stroke gas system, rotating bolt, and stamped steel receiver) is of the Kalashnikov pattern. The gas system is fitted with a manual gas regulator similar in design to that found on the FN FAL as well as a gas cutoff. The charging handle is positioned on the left side of the forearm; it is similar in position and design to the German HK G3 rifle.


The TV show said it was the stamped parts that caused stoppages and led to switch to machined receiver. So may be OFB stamping dies are wearing out and need to look at that aspect.

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Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby ArmenT » 25 Feb 2010 10:27

One of the reasons that Kalashnikov put bigger tolerances in his weapons was because of the Russian winter. In freezing and muddy conditions, other guns would jam easier. He was also heavily influenced by the M1 Garand's gas-operated mechanism (The AK's gas-operated mechanism is on top of the barrel instead of under the barrel like the M1, but the parts and operating principles are very similar). Incidentally, Hugo Schmeisser, the guy who invented the MP-43 and StG-44 (which looks a lot like an AK-47, but was developed 2 years earlier) was conscripted by the Russians as Kalashnikov's assistant after WW-II, along with a bunch of German technicians from Suhl. Reportedly Hugo Schmeisser's team was the one that taught the Russians how to get their stampings right and how to mass-produce the weapon.

In an interview in 2009, Mikhail Kalashnikov finally acknowledged that Hugo Schmeisser was partly responsible for what the AK is today.

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Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby rad » 27 Feb 2010 17:21

Could any body be kind enough to post a recent pic of the Modern submachine gune that was
displayed recently at defexpo
thanks
rad


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