Small Arms Thread

[Avinash R]

Could any body be kind enough to post a recent pic of the Modern submachine gune that was
displayed recently at defexpo
thanks
rad

[Gaur]

Enjoy!
http://s698.photobucket.com/albums/vv34 ... t=MSMC.jpg
http://s698.photobucket.com/albums/vv34 ... =MSMC1.jpg
http://s698.photobucket.com/albums/vv34 ... =MSMC2.jpg
http://s698.photobucket.com/albums/vv34 ... =Garud.jpg

[rad]

Thanks Avinash and Gaur for the pics

Antony holding a gun sends my blood boiling! useless people . Being clean does not mean stopping
the procure ment of much needed arms and acting high and mighty.

An officer once said that some
defence ministers dont know the difference between the front end of a gun and the rear end !

I would rather gave a corrupt minister like Georgy! who made the Mod babus sweat in the Siachen!
and realy made them work and got things done faster

Rad

[Venu]

Not being political but charges against george are not prooved yet. Hence conferring him the award 'Corrupt minister' may not be apt and good. Kindly desist.

Request onree!!

[RayC]

I cannot say he is corrupt or not.

But he was the only hands on Defence Minister.

[rad]

I agree with Ray ,
ok guilty untill proven , I accept that .The point is he was a far better defence minister than any one else
and often spoke his mind out . The damage this man is doing is great, Ajay shuklas blog highlights it correctly
Smiling with a gun reminds me that he seems to have fullfilled some child hood fantasy playing with real guns!!!

Rad

[RayC]

I can't say George was good or bad.

But what I can say is that he travelled all over and was with the troops of all services and checked the situation on ground.

How many Defence Ministers have done that?

He was most frugal in his requirements!

[ArmenT]

http://i50.tinypic.com/2ikzgc9.jpg

Instead of these photo-ops showing a minister holding the weapon, they should photograph a General or soldiers of a regiment doing it. For one thing, a soldier would know how to hold a weapon properly, unlike the honorable minister who is clearly fulfilling his childhood fantasies.

[somnath]

I can't say George was good or bad.

But what I can say is that he travelled all over and was with the troops of all services and checked the situation on ground.

How many Defence Ministers have done that?

He was most frugal in his requirements!

George F continued the long line of RMs who did nothing on policy-making...The only difference with GF was that he thought that personal Siachen tourism substitutes for good policy..The current incumbent thinks comlete non-action on procurement to show "cleanliness" is substitute for good policy!! I guess to each his own..

[RayC]

George F continued the long line of RMs who did nothing on policy-making...The only difference with GF was that he thought that personal Siachen tourism substitutes for good policy..The current incumbent thinks comlete non-action on procurement to show "cleanliness" is substitute for good policy!! I guess to each his own..

All politicians and bureaucrats know a sausage about defence. They are all clueless wonders. That is why the Cold Start Doctrine was not accepted when Gen Bipin Joshi presented it. It required the smozzle of Op Parikrama to wake these Rip Van Winkel yokels!! Therefore, to believe that these 'wonders' can contribute to defence policy making is asking for the Moon. They actually prevent the Armed Forces from any policy making. Do we have any National Grand Strategy that the politicians and the govt should evolve? We live from moment to moment! Our arms procurement is zilch thank to these brainless wonders that man the Govt and MOD.

As far as George is concerned, at least he was with the troops, call it Siachen tourism or Rajasthan tourism. Did any Defence Minister face the rigours to be seen with the troops?

A General can still command his Division from his office, but he must visit the troops to show that he is with them. He must eat in the langer to show solidarity and what the eat is OK. George, the Defence Minister, did it. He washed his own clothes! So, while I may have little to praise the political class, yet I am ready to accept their goodness too!

He may like everyone else not understood defence. But he has his heart at the right place. Coffingate or not, he ensured that the bodies did not come in rum crates but in a decent and respectful manner. He ensured that Siachen and Kargil got snowmobiles and people did not have to lug up the stores.

He had the guts to kick the bureaucrats, on whom the clueless Ministers depends, to go to Siachen.

Give the man his due!

The present midget only smiles and the defence forces get naked by the day because of his penchant to remain 'Mr Clean'. I wonder how one can get elected without money and muscle power!

[somnath]

A General can still command his Division from his office, but he must visit the troops to show that he is with them. He must eat in the langer to show solidarity and what the eat is OK. George, the Defence Minister, did it. He washed his own clothes! So, while I may have little to praise the political class, yet I am ready to accept their goodness too

Thats a very small part of the RMs job, management by "moving around"...

Though its wrong to say that all dispensations have been strategically naive..The early days of Rajiv Gandhi's administration (Arun Singh, VS Arunachalam, Gen Sundarji etc) was defining - a new doctrine for the Army, a firm move towards weaponisation of the nuke options, couple of defninig procurements...PVNR did not do too badly either, espeically given the huge economic constraints he was under most of the time - preparation for a resumption of testing, a couple of game changing deals (incl the mother of all, Su30), and the general thrust of "Look East"...

The biggest disappointment was the NDA government..They rested on the nuke test laurels for the rest of their term..Did nothing to concretise the instituionalisation of the higher policy-making apparatus...Some of which is slowly happening now..

[RayC]

Thats a very small part of the RMs job, management by "moving around"...

However, good for the morale of the men.

Not having idiots who love their own offices and aircon comforts!

[RayC]

[somnath]

And worse are the sycophants behind

Thats VK Saraswat - DRDO chief..

[RayC]

And worse are the sycophants behind

Thats VK Saraswat - DRDO chief..

Living a life of luxury!

[Sagar G]

Living a life of luxury!

How saar ????

[ArmenT]

RayC Sir, I have a small question for you, if you don't mind answering that is. I think you mentioned earlier that Indian troops do re-use AK-47s and ammo captured from pakis. The question I have is, are the captured AKs Chinese version or Khyber pass version? Did you and your troops trust any "Made-in-Darra" type weapons at all?

[Tanaji]

RayC Sir, I have a small question for you, if you don't mind answering that is. I think you mentioned earlier that Indian troops do re-use AK-47s and ammo captured from pakis. The question I have is, are the captured AKs Chinese version or Khyber pass version? Did you and your troops trust any "Made-in-Darra" type weapons at all?

To add, how do you make sure that the captured stocks are not booby trapped?

[RayC]

RayC Sir, I have a small question for you, if you don't mind answering that is. I think you mentioned earlier that Indian troops do re-use AK-47s and ammo captured from pakis. The question I have is, are the captured AKs Chinese version or Khyber pass version? Did you and your troops trust any "Made-in-Darra" type weapons at all?

To be frank, I have no idea. Actually. most of us are satisfied if a weapon performs as per requirement and do not quite get into the details of technology and manufacture.

In courses of instruction we do learn the 'science' and technology behind a weapon or ammunition and it is those who are ptsc (pass technical staff college) know the real arms technology.

[ramana]

I agree with Ray ,
ok guilty untill proven , I accept that .The point is he was a far better defence minister than any one else
and often spoke his mind out . The damage this man is doing is great, Ajay shuklas blog highlights it correctly
Smiling with a gun reminds me that he seems to have fullfilled some child hood fantasy playing with real guns!!!

Rad

I recommend you go back and edit that earlier post of yours for despite your admitting in this post the earlier post still stands.

Thanks, ramana

[ramana]

ArmenT and Ray C, I would like you to collaborate and create a small booklet that summarizes the origin and development of self loading guns , side arms and the Indian versions of that. Say six months to a year?

The reason is there is so much knowledge but its inside you. We should bring it out for the rest to partake. I want future Indian mech engg to learn from it and not have to refer to outside sources.

Thanks, ramana

[ArmenT]

Since the last forum upgrade wiped out my post from last night, I'm recreating it from memory....
=========================================================================

RayC Sir, I have a small question for you, if you don't mind answering that is. I think you mentioned earlier that Indian troops do re-use AK-47s and ammo captured from pakis. The question I have is, are the captured AKs Chinese version or Khyber pass version? Did you and your troops trust any "Made-in-Darra" type weapons at all?

To be frank, I have no idea. Actually. most of us are satisfied if a weapon performs as per requirement and do not quite get into the details of technology and manufacture.

In courses of instruction we do learn the 'science' and technology behind a weapon or ammunition and it is those who are ptsc (pass technical staff college) know the real arms technology.

The reason I ask is because "Made-in-Darra" type (a.k.a. Khyber Pass) weapons are known for varying quality of manufacture, especially their copies of English 19th century rifles. In fact, the rifles manufactured in 19th century industrial workshops are made with higher manufacturing standards than those made in the 21st century workshops in the Khyber pass. The khyber pass rifles are notorious for using low quality materials such as recycled scrap steel and stolen railway tracks. Since many of their furnaces can't reach higher temperatures, they're forced to use low-grade steels. Also since the parts are hand-fitted, the copied rifles cannot interchange some parts without using a file. A couple of gun nut friends of mine advised never to try firing one, or use underloaded ammo at the very least.

Chinese made weapons are a much better deal, according to my gun nut friends, one of whom has high praise for his Norinco AK. There is a good reason why Pak Fauj doesn't buy Made-in-Darra rifles, even if they could save precious foreign exchange this way. Was wondering if the Pak Fauj proxies were supplied with Chinese made AKs or Made-in-Darra types for this reason.

=======================================================================

RayC later replied saying that they were Chinese made AKs.

[RayC]

The US Marines will be be deploying with new 62 gr open tip 5.56 ammo to replace the M855 to get deadlier rifle rounds out of the short barrel M4 carbine

Check out the link: Corps to use more lethal ammo in Afghanistan - MarineCorpsTimes.com

http://www.marinecorpstimes.com/news/20 ... o_021510w/

[RayC]

Lightweight Small Arms Technologies Weapon Design and Performance Features

[Bheem]

The US Marines will be be deploying with new 62 gr open tip 5.56 ammo to replace the M855 to get deadlier rifle rounds out of the short barrel M4 carbine

Check out the link: Corps to use more lethal ammo in Afghanistan - MarineCorpsTimes.com

http://www.marinecorpstimes.com/news/20 ... o_021510w/

A lot of discussion is going on about this ammo on various forums. This ammo uses new propellant to accelerate the bullet faster & quickly allowing use of shorter barrrels. I had pointed way earlier that this ammo may address the difficulty being faced by INSAS carbine as Indian ammo had a longer burning profile and therefore the flash/bang outside the short barrel of INSAS carbine. Also the sister ammo of this is for 7.62mm rifles which will also allow use of shorter barrels of 14-16inches in such rifles. These developments are essential for all nations in COT/COIN involvments. But will DRDO or IA wake up or as usual import hi import?

[ramana]

So what is the difference between hollow point aka dum-dum and this open tip bullet? I think its a dum-dum with a fancy name. They are hanging their hat on their definition of unnecessary suffering and superfluous pain.

[RayC]

Open Tip Ammunition

The "open tip" is a shallow aperture (approximately the diameter of the wire in a standard size straight pin or paper clip) in the nose of the bullet. While sometimes described as a "hollow point," this is a mischaracterization in law of war terms. Generally a "hollow point" bullet is thought of in terms of its ability to expand on impact with soft tissue. Physical examination of the MatchKing "open tip" bullet reveals that its opening is extremely small in comparison to the aperture in comparable hollow point hunting bullets; for example, the 165-grain GameKing is a true hollow point boat tail bullet with an aperture substantially greater than the MatchKing, and skiving (serrations cut into the jacket) to insure expansion. In the MatchKing, the open tip is closed as much as possible to provide better aerodynamics, and contains no skiving. The lead core of the MatchKing bullet is entirely covered by the bullet jacket. While the GameKing bullet is designed to bring the ballistic advantages of a match bullet to long range hunting, the manufacturer expressly recommends against the use of the MatchKing for hunting game of any size because it does not have the expansion characteristics of a hunting bullet.

The purpose of the small, shallow aperture in the MatchKing is to provide a bullet design offering maximum accuracy at very long ranges, rolling the jacket of the bullet around its core from base to tip; standard military bullets and other match bullets roll the jacket around its core from tip to base, leaving an exposed lead core at its base. Design purpose of the MatchKing was not to produce a bullet that would expand or flatten easily on impact with the human body, or otherwise cause wounds greater than those caused by standard military small arms ammunition......................

Law of War Application.

From both a legal and medical standpoint, the lethality or incapacitation effects of a particular small-caliber projectile must be measured against comparable projectiles in service. In the military small arms field, "small caliber" generally includes all rifle projectiles up to and including .60 caliber (15mm). For the purposes of this review, however, comparison will be limited to small-caliber ammunition in the range of 5.45mm to 7.62mm, that is, that currently in use in assault or sniper rifles by the military services of most nations.

Wound ballistic research over the past fifteen years has determined that the prohibition contained in the 1899 Hague Declaration is of minimal to no value, inasmuch as virtually all jacketed military bullets employed since 1899 with pointed ogival spitzer tip shape have a tendency to fragment on impact with soft tissue, harder organs, bone or the clothing and/or equipment worn by the individual soldier.

The pointed ogival spitzer tip, shared by all modern military bullets, reflects the balancing by nations of the criteria of military necessity and unnecessary suffering: its streamlined shape decreases air drag, allowing the bullet to retain velocity better for improved long-range performance; a modern military 7.62mm bullet will lose only about one-third of its muzzle velocity over 500 yards, while the same weight bullet with a round-nose shape will lose more than one-half of its velocity over the same distance. Yet the pointed ogival spitzer tip shape also leads to greater bullet breakup, and potentially greater injury to the soldier by such a bullet vis-à-vis a round-nose full-metal jacketed bullet. (See Dr. M. L. Fackler, "Wounding Patterns for Military Rifle Bullets," International Defense Review, January 1989, pp. 56-64, at 63.)

Weighing the increased performance of the pointed ogival spitzer tip bullet against the increased injury its breakup may bring, the nations of the world-- through almost a century of practice--have concluded that the need for the former outweighs concern for the latter, and does not result in unnecessary suffering as prohibited by the 1899 Hague Declaration Concerning Expanding Bullets or article 23e of the 1907 Hague Convention IV. The 1899 Hague Declaration Concerning Expanding Bullets remains valid for expression of the principle that a nation may not employ a bullet that expands easily on impact for the purpose of unnecessarily aggravating the wound inflicted upon an enemy soldier. Such a bullet also would be prohibited by article 23e of the 1907 Hague IV, however. Another concept fundamental to the law of war is the principle of discrimination, that is, utilization of means or methods that distinguish to the extent possible legitimate targets, such as enemy soldiers, from noncombatants, whether enemy wounded and sick, medical personnel, or innocent civilians. The highly trained military sniper with his special rifle and match grade ammunition epitomizes the principle of discrimination. In combat, most targets are covered or obscured, move unpredictably, and as a consequence are exposed to hostile fire for limited periods of time. When coupled with the level of marksmanship training provided the average soldier and the stress of combat, a soldier's aiming errors are large and hit probability is correspondingly low. While the M16A2 rifle currently used by the United States Army and Marine Corps is capable of acceptable accuracy out to six hundred meters, the probability of an average soldier hitting an enemy soldier at three hundred meters is ten percent.

Statistics from past wars suggest that this probability figure may be optimistic. In Would War II, the United States and its allies expended 25,000 rounds of ammunition to kill a single enemy soldier. In the Korean War, the ammunition expenditure had increased four-fold to 100,000 rounds per soldier; in the Vietnam War, that figure had doubled to 200,000 rounds of ammunition for the death of a single enemy soldier. The risk to noncombatants is apparent.

In contrast, United States Army and Marine Corps snipers in the Vietnam War expended 1.3 rounds of ammunition for each claimed and verified kill, at an average range of six hundred yards, or almost twice the three hundred meters cited above for combat engagements by the average soldier. Some verified kills were at ranges in excess of 1000 yards. This represents discrimination and military efficiency of the highest order, as well as minimization of risk to noncombatants. Utilization of a bullet that increases accuracy, such as the MatchKing, would further diminish the risk to noncombatants

Dum Dum bullet

A hollow point is an expanding bullet that has a pit or hollowed out shape in its tip, generally intended to cause the bullet to expand upon entering a target in order to decrease penetration and disrupt more tissue as it travels through the target. They are also used to control penetration, such as in situations where over penetration could cause collateral damage (such as on an airplane). Jacketed hollow points (JHPs) or plated hollow points are covered in a coating of harder metal to increase bullet strength and to prevent fouling the barrel with lead stripped from the bullet. The term hollow-cavity bullet is used to describe a hollow point where the hollow is unusually large, sometimes dominating the volume of the bullet, and causes extreme expansion or fragmentation on impact.

.357 Magnum rounds. Left: Jacketed Soft Point (JSP) round. Right: Jacketed hollow-point (JHP) round. JSP is a semi-jacketed round as the jacket does not extend to the tip.

How it works

Expansion

When a hollow-point hunting bullet strikes a soft target, the pressure created in the pit forces the material (usually lead) around the inside edge to expand outwards, increasing the axial diameter of the projectile as it passes through. This process is commonly referred to as mushrooming, because the resulting shape, a widened, rounded nose on top of a cylindrical base, typically resembles a mushroom.

The greater frontal surface area of the expanded bullet limits its depth of penetration into the target, and causes more extensive tissue damage along the wound path. Many hollow-point bullets, especially those intended for use at high velocity in centerfire rifles, are jacketed, i.e. a portion of the lead-cored bullet is wrapped in a thin layer of harder metal, such as copper or mild steel. This jacket provides additional strength to the bullet, and can help prevent it from leaving deposits of lead inside the bore. In controlled expansion bullets, the jacket and other internal design characteristics help to prevent the bullet from breaking apart; a fragmented bullet will not penetrate as far.

[negi]

The said open tip round is firstly 'match' grade so that should explain the improved accuracy part , also the they say the propellant charge composition has been carefully chosen to increase the muzzle velocity for M4 carbine's shorter barrel.

As for open tip vs hollow point well they say the former is non expanding at least not to the extent of the hollow points , also there is a lot of controversy around the 'dum dum' rounds as many gun enthusiasts consider 'dum dum' to strictly refer to 'soft points' only .

[RayC]

6.5x55mm Swedish before and after expanding. The long base and small expanded diameter show that this is a bullet designed for deep penetration on large game. The bullet in the photo traveled more than halfway through a moose before coming to rest.

[ramana]

So whats the verdict?

[RayC]

So whats the verdict?

What you said was right.

But the US is not a signatory of the Hague Declaration III and reluctant participant in Declaration IV.

Where the U.S. did sign on, however, was with the Hague Convention IV of 1907, Article 23(e) of which Annex states:

"…it is especially forbidden -

To employ arms, projectiles, or material{sic} calculated to cause unnecessary suffering;".....

This practice began to change subsequent to a 23 September 1985 opinion issued by the Judge Advocate General2, authored3 by W. Hays Parks4, Chief of the JAG's International Law Branch, for the signature of Major General Hugh R. Overholt, which stated:

"…expanding point ammunition is legally permissible in counterterrorist operations not involving the engagement of the armed forces of another State."

[ramana]

So whats the verdict?

What you said was right.

But the US is not a signatory of the Hague Declaration III and reluctant participant in Declaration IV.

Where the U.S. did sign on, however, was with the Hague Convention IV of 1907, Article 23(e) of which Annex states:

"…it is especially forbidden -

To employ arms, projectiles, or material{sic} calculated to cause unnecessary suffering;".....

This practice began to change subsequent to a 23 September 1985 opinion issued by the Judge Advocate General2, authored3 by W. Hays Parks4, Chief of the JAG's International Law Branch, for the signature of Major General Hugh R. Overholt, which stated:

"…expanding point ammunition is legally permissible in counterterrorist operations not involving the engagement of the armed forces of another State."

Are military forces deployed under UN resolutions in other countries acting per this description?

[RayC]

Are military forces deployed under UN resolutions in other countries acting per this description?

Not to my knowledge.

US also does not recognise the International Court of Justice at the Hague.

They are in a stand alone mode in such tricky issues.

The US is a law by themselves it appears.

[Bheem]

USA has reportedly adopted this ammo and using it, so that is the verdict.

The point I am making it that this ammo may actually be the solution to Indian INSAS carbine problems.

[RayC]

USA has reportedly adopted this ammo and using it, so that is the verdict.

The point I am making it that this ammo may actually be the solution to Indian INSAS carbine problems.

Given the fact that everywhere terrorists are fought by using the airforce, artillery, armour etc and India fights with Infantry and without any weapons of the Support Company (Mors etc) one wonders if India will accept this ammunition!

JMT.

[Jagan]

err.. most Police Departments in the US issue Hollow point ammo for use against their own fellow citizens... an old link.... what can one say about the US using them against terrorists???

[pgbhat]

err.. most Police Departments in the US issue Hollow point ammo for use against their own fellow citizens... an old link.... what can one say about the US using them against terrorists???

I thought that was to avoid over penetration of bullets, which might injure innocents.

[ramana]

RayC saab, This open tip bullets are hunting bullets or controlled expansion bullets. So they justify using in counter terrorist operations. If this was in own lands its one thing but to do so under UN resolutions is another thing. We will soon hear more about gray rules regarding enemy combatants etc.
IF US wants to try those terrorists under enemy combatant rules they will tie themselves in knots about using dum-dum bullets.

----------
pgbhat, do you know that Hiroshima was justified for saving lives!

[RayC]

RayC saab, This open tip bullets are hunting bullets or controlled expansion bullets. So they justify using in counter terrorist operations. If this was in own lands its one thing but to do so under UN resolutions is another thing. We will soon hear more about gray rules regarding enemy combatants etc.
IF US wants to try those terrorists under enemy combatant rules they will tie themselves in knots about using dum-dum bullets.

----------
pgbhat, do you know that Hiroshima was justified for saving lives!

The world cannot legislate the US.

That is the long and short of it!

Even if is OK for hunting, would it not go against cruelty to animals?

[ArmenT]

This practice began to change subsequent to a 23 September 1985 opinion issued by the Judge Advocate General2, authored3 by W. Hays Parks4, Chief of the JAG's International Law Branch, for the signature of Major General Hugh R. Overholt, which stated:

"…expanding point ammunition is legally permissible in counterterrorist operations not involving the engagement of the armed forces of another State."

it could be argued that counter-terrorist operations involve battles with forces that are not legitimate representative combatants of another state, since they aren't recognized by the UN, nor do they comply with other regulations, such as wearing uniforms that clearly identify them as combatants. Hence the normal laws that apply for enemy combatants do not apply to terrorists.

Also, the round in question is open-tip, not hollow-point, which is prohibited by treaty. Soviets found some similar loophole for the AK-74s tumbling bullets.