Small Arms Thread

ArmenT · Post by **ArmenT** » 22 Mar 2010 01:27

Rahul M wrote:thanks.

are all rounds of anti-material rifles explosive in nature ?

Admittedly, not all anti-materiel rounds are explosive or incendiary (by the way, official spelling is anti-materiel, not anti-material

). However the Mk 211 Mod 0 was the standard round used with the Barrett M-82 due to its multi-purpose nature (i.e.) High-Explosive-Incendiary-Armor-Piercing (HEIAP) type. My info about it not supposed to be used against personnel comes from a friend of mine who served in the US army in the 80s/early 90s and that's what the instructors told them. They weren't told whether it was the round that was the problem or the gun itself. I saw the same statement come up again in the movie "Jarhead" which was based on the autobiography of a retired Desert Storm era US Marine.

As you can see, policies do change from time to time, so what was taught in the 80s is not necessarily taught now.

The official stance of the Norwegian Government is that the 12.7 mm MP round should not be used against personnel, but an exception has been made for snipers using the round - due to the practical limitations of snipers having to change the type of ammunition used when switching between hardened and soft targets. It is being exported strictly in an anti-materiel capacity. The current U.S. policy is that the ammunition is suitable for use against all targets.

From http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Raufoss_Mk_211#Legality

khukri · Post by **khukri** » 22 Mar 2010 03:41

nachiket wrote:
khukri wrote:There are only 2 serious contenders - the Russian Kord amd the US / Belgian Browning - or are there others?
The CIS 50 from ST kinetics comes to mind. There is also the General Dynamics LW50MG which I think is a derivative of the XM312.

I think the GD weapon is still in development

Fidel Guevara · Post by **Fidel Guevara** » 22 Mar 2010 18:30

ArmenT wrote: My info about it not supposed to be used against personnel comes from a friend of mine who served in the US army in the 80s/early 90s and that's what the instructors told them. They weren't told whether it was the round that was the problem or the gun itself. I saw the same statement come up again in the movie "Jarhead" which was based on the autobiography of a retired Desert Storm era US Marine.

The official stance of the Norwegian Government is that the 12.7 mm MP round should not be used against personnel, but an exception has been made for snipers using the round - due to the practical limitations of snipers having to change the type of ammunition used when switching between hardened and soft targets. It is being exported strictly in an anti-materiel capacity. The current U.S. policy is that the ammunition is suitable for use against all targets.

I read an interview with the Canadian soldier who is credited with the world's longest range, verified, kill at 1600 metres, against a Talibunny. He did mention something about this Geneva Convention limitation. His way of getting around this limit was not to aim at the person, but at "enemy military materiel", such as the bandolier of ammo, or military supplies in the backpack, or a visible grenade on the webbing, etc.

Since the Canadian snipers in Afghanistan need to take video recordings when they use the M82 Barrett, anyone auditing such kills can clearly see that the bullet was aimed at military equipment and not at the person.

Of course, in most of the cases this type of aim does result in fatal injury to the unfortunate Abdul who just happens to be carrying the military gear.

Shameek · Post by **Shameek** » 22 Mar 2010 19:27

http://www.dnaindia.com/india/report_mu ... 11_1361808

FWIW

Among them was the move to purchase a foreign rifle in place of the Insas (Indian small arms system) assault rifle, which is developed by the Ordnance Factory Board. The infantry directorate had also rejected the Insas carbine after several months of trial and without much explanation.

ArmenT · Post by **ArmenT** » 22 Mar 2010 20:32

Fidel Guevara wrote: I read an interview with the Canadian soldier who is credited with the world's longest range, verified, kill at 1600 metres, against a Talibunny. He did mention something about this Geneva Convention limitation. His way of getting around this limit was are not aiming at the person, but at "enemy military materiel", such as the bandolier of ammo, or military supplies in the backpack, or a visible grenade on the webbing, etc. Since the Canadian snipers in Afghanistan need to take video recordings when they use the M82 Barrett, anyone auditing such kills can clearly see that the bullet was aimed at military equipment and not at the person.

Of course, in most of the cases this type of aim does result in fatal injury to the unfortunate Abdul who just happens to be carrying the military gear.

My friend mentioned similar loophole: If paki jarnail was rapidly downhill ski-ing, one could not legally take a shot. However, the moment he got into his jeep (or, if you prefer, Habib Sitara) to make a getaway, one could put a shot into the vehicle (say, the windshield) and too bad if the jarnail happened to be behind it. Gotta love lawyers.

All this is irrelevant now as the current US policy is that it is legal to use against all targets, as mentioned in the link above.

Dmurphy · Post by **Dmurphy** » 01 Apr 2010 07:13

German Red Dot Sights for Indian Armed Forces

Gurus, which gun/rifle will it be fitted on?

tejas · Post by **tejas** » 01 Apr 2010 08:12

What happened to this DRDO sight ? The date of the article is Feb, 2007.

http://www.drdo.com/pub/nl/feb07/feb07.pdf

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 02 Apr 2010 02:20

From this page OFB does not make the 20mm shells for the Vidhwansak nor for the LCH gun being adopted.

http://ofbindia.gov.in/index.php?wh=A-E-P-C&lang=en

So the ammo has to be imported.

Brahmananda · Post by **Brahmananda** » 02 Apr 2010 03:04

actually modify the AK with a level straight butt stock like the m-4/m-16 or other new rifles and the AK becomes more accurate. Improve the materials bit more and you have new assault rifle better than any in the world still reliable and just as powerful and more accurate. due to level straight butt stock the recoil of the weapon goes into the shoulder thus reducing inaccuracy.

something like this:

http://www.mgimilitary.com/store/images ... 0Hydra.JPG

ArmenT · Post by **ArmenT** » 02 Apr 2010 11:56

^^^^
You're kidding, right?

atreya · Post by **atreya** » 02 Apr 2010 12:14

Deleted

atreya · Post by **atreya** » 02 Apr 2010 12:14

I hope he is!

But when people can come up with things like THIS

then an AK47-M16 amalgamation isn't that bad an idea!

Brahmananda · Post by **Brahmananda** » 02 Apr 2010 12:43

ArmenT wrote:^^^^
You're kidding, right?

no bro, no kidding, AK is still very reliable and known for firing first shot in almost any condition, but since its butt stock angles down, the recoil of the weapon ends up in the barrel end of the weapons. I have fired the AK myself at NCC camp a few years back. The recoil pushes the barrel up, though in single shot mode you can put the first round very accurately on a target, the second round usually misses and requires constant pushing down to keep the weapon on target, full-auto fire takes getting used to.

straighten the butt stock and the recoil goes into the shoulder, keeping the barrel more or less level and pointed at the target, this should increase the accuracy and you have a easy and inexpensive rifle that can be made quickly. make it from stamped parts and keep the magazine chamber same as the AK and you have a rifle that can fit it any AK 7.62 magazine from around the world which can be useful during war time especially against the Pukis and Chinese. Both armies use a lot of AKs, we just keep taking their ammo as we keep killing them and thus we dont need same level of supplies for ammo. In suh a cse the soldier shouldnt face shortages in ammo, he just keeps taking ammo from the dead enemy.

NehraA · Post by **NehraA** » 02 Apr 2010 19:16

^^^^
you are basically talking abt galil but with 7.62 caliber. No doubt that galil was a succesfull design, but inacuracy of the AK comes more due to its firing mechanism than from its butt design. But then soviet doctrine called for volume of fire rather than accurate marksmanship.
i have also fired an AK in full auto lying down, kneeling and even while standing but didnt feel the need to push down the rifle as you were saying, dont mind but sounds like 'counter strike' gyaan to me.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 02 Apr 2010 20:07

the british at one time had round bullets to kill men-of-the-book and square headed ones to kill turks

saw it in a small arms encyclopaedia.

do the british police use normal bullets or wicked looking fletchette rounds? (steel darts encased in a plastic type apds sheath)

atreya · Post by **atreya** » 02 Apr 2010 20:45

Singha wrote:the british at one time had round bullets to kill men-of-the-book and square headed ones to kill turks

saw it in a small arms encyclopaedia.

True. I read that somewhere long time ago.

do the british police use normal bullets or wicked looking fletchette rounds? (steel darts encased in a plastic type apds sheath)

British police are not issued firearms routinely. There are special units (called Firearm Units, I think) which are called upon, whenever such situations arise. The regular police is issued with Tasers, pepper spray, batons, etc. Inspite of not being armed, they do a stellar job of managing crime. Maybe it has got something to do with low population and strict arms laws
To answer your question, I think they use normal bullets. Fletchette rounds were banned, IIRC

Brahmananda · Post by **Brahmananda** » 02 Apr 2010 21:43

NehraA wrote:^^^^
you are basically talking abt galil but with 7.62 caliber. No doubt that galil was a succesfull design, but inacuracy of the AK comes more due to its firing mechanism than from its butt design. But then soviet doctrine called for volume of fire rather than accurate marksmanship.
i have also fired an AK in full auto lying down, kneeling and even while standing but didnt feel the need to push down the rifle as you were saying, dont mind but sounds like 'counter strike' gyaan to me.

By pushing down the rifle i mean the leaning forward and fighting the recoil which rocked my arms more than i expected unlike the SLR which although has a heavy recoil it hits the shoulder( i fired this rifle first). By making the butt straight i dont expect it to become as accurate as lets say the m-16 but i think due to the recoil hitting the shoulders more than the arms, i think its should help improve accuracy a bit more. The firing mechanism is actually what makes the AK far more reliable because there is enough space and thus allows to be fired even when pulled out from sand, water and even sticky mud. There is no denying that the recoil of the AK rocks the front end (barrel) more than other assault rifles and the recoil doesnt hit back into the shoulder. Thus effective usage relies on a good lean or a tight grip besides the waist for heavy full auto fire. All modern day rifles and carbines thus rely on having a straight butt which is part of the idea to keep recoil more on the shoulder and thus reduce inaccuracy. The shoulder also acts as a better shock absorber for the recoil.

putnanja · Post by **putnanja** » 02 Apr 2010 21:59

Brahmananda, just curious, have you tried out AK-47 and INSAS?

Brahmananda · Post by **Brahmananda** » 02 Apr 2010 22:57

Yes i fired the Insas as well as the AK and SLR. I was first trained in the SLR part of our training in NCC, the AK and Insas were when we went to Dehradun for IMA Attachment training for 15 days. I Like the Insas, rate of fire awesome and recoil is better, prefer the single shot mode, didnt like the burst mode, didnt like the Fixed butt verion, loved the folded butt verion, its light and very handy especially on the move. we had lots of field training and the folded butt AK and folded butt Insas were ideal, prefer the AK to the insas, knockout power is better. However Insas accuracy gives better results while on the move and keeping the butt folded. The recoil of the Insas is better and being lighter makes a lot of difference. its easy to maneuver in the field of view and we were trained with the AK and Insas to take two shots at each target, would have loved to have a fully auto Insas but sadly the thing is limited to single and burst modes. Before we ever got into the field we got to train on the Rifle simulators, very nice feature it prepared to what we can expect in terms of weapons handling.

Pat · Post by **Pat** » 03 Apr 2010 01:56

Brahmananda wrote:Yes i fired the Insas as well as the AK and SLR. I was first trained in the SLR part of our training in NCC, the AK and Insas were when we went to Dehradun for IMA Attachment training for 15 days. I Like the Insas, rate of fire awesome and recoil is better, prefer the single shot mode, didnt like the burst mode, didnt like the Fixed butt verion, loved the folded butt verion, its light and very handy especially on the move. we had lots of field training and the folded butt AK and folded butt Insas were ideal, prefer the AK to the insas, knockout power is better. However Insas accuracy gives better results while on the move and keeping the butt folded. The recoil of the Insas is better and being lighter makes a lot of difference. its easy to maneuver in the field of view and we were trained with the AK and Insas to take two shots at each target, would have loved to have a fully auto Insas but sadly the thing is limited to single and burst modes. Before we ever got into the field we got to train on the Rifle simulators, very nice feature it prepared to what we can expect in terms of weapons handling.

Would you prefer AK over INSAS in anti insurgency operations?

putnanja · Post by **putnanja** » 03 Apr 2010 02:28

Brahmananda has just fired it when he was in NCC. He doesn't have any combat experience. RayC has already answered your question and it should be somewhere on this thread

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 03 Apr 2010 02:39

DRDO/OFB should rechamber the Vidhwansak for the 23mm round from existing 20mm round.
Might require new recoil springs but gives access to locally made ammo.

Pat · Post by **Pat** » 03 Apr 2010 04:37

putnanja wrote:Brahmananda has just fired it when he was in NCC. He doesn't have any combat experience. RayC has already answered your question and it should be somewhere on this thread

I clearly asked for Brahmananda's opinion. I know what Rayc thinks.

ArmenT · Post by **ArmenT** » 04 Apr 2010 10:45

NehraA wrote:^^^^
you are basically talking abt galil but with 7.62 caliber. No doubt that galil was a succesfull design, but inacuracy of the AK comes more due to its firing mechanism than from its butt design. But then soviet doctrine called for volume of fire rather than accurate marksmanship.
i have also fired an AK in full auto lying down, kneeling and even while standing but didnt feel the need to push down the rifle as you were saying, dont mind but sounds like 'counter strike' gyaan to me.

Yes you're correct, AK's inaccuracy comes more from its wider tolerances and the way the barrel is bedded to the stock. There are other manufacturers who make AK designs much more accurate by manufacturing to closer tolerances, better sights and better manufacturing techniques. For instance, the most accurate AK clone is widely regarded to be the Finnish R-62 (In fact, Galil bought the machinery and manufacturing tech knowledge from the Finns, instead of the Russians). Its tolerances are much closer than the AK-47, but still wide enough to work in Finnish winters.

Gerard · Post by **Gerard** » 05 Apr 2010 04:35

ITBP chief admits connectivity glitch

Despite the difficulties caused by the lack of road network, the modern weapons they possess have come in handy to check any aggression by the Chinese, he said without elaborating the details.

Earlier the men on the border were using Insas rifles, but now AK 47 rifles are used, he said.

“From the normal sten guns, we are using the latest carbines,” he said, adding that mortars are already kept ready on the border.

“Basically, we are using more of infantry weapons.”

ArmenT · Post by **ArmenT** » 05 Apr 2010 09:03

Oman is currently evaluating the INSAS rifle.
http://www.financialexpress.com/news/Om ... ia/599647/
The title of the article is somewhat badly named as it seems to indicate that the Omanis have placed an actual order, but it appears they're only evaluating it for now.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 05 Apr 2010 23:44

X-posted...

Discussion of weakness of Taliban marksmanship.
http://atwar.blogs.nytimes.com/2010/04/ ... ksmanship/

Read the linked article also.

-------
ArmenT, Have you started thinking about your small arms primer?

Brahmananda · Post by **Brahmananda** » 06 Apr 2010 02:38

Actually the most advanced AKs in the world are made in guess what the US.
and robinson arms makes very good AK copies in the form of the VEPR series of rifles all very well made and far outperform the finnish version and far more accurate.
http://www.vulcanarmament.com/cgistore/ ... 77929.7380

Pat i havent faced enemy fire or have adequate training for CI ops but i would prefer the AK over the Insas anyday. Simply because its reliable and has good knock down power. i like its kick, feels like how a gun should feel like, in single shot mode, its the best assualt rifle that i fired out there. Its noise also has a fear factor, very good for suppresive fire. I also liked the SLR, ideal long range rifle and you can kill someone from 500 meters away easy.

ArmenT · Post by **ArmenT** » 07 Apr 2010 11:05

ramana wrote: ArmenT, Have you started thinking about your small arms primer?

Hi ramana, I've started working on it in a blog format. Would it be more suitable in a word doc or as a blog? I don't mind doing it either way.

By the way, would all you BRF readers please take a look at this:
http://firearmshistory.blogspot.com/
and let me know whether the following is informative or not. I've taken the liberty of hand-drawing some illustrations mainly because I'm not sure if I can scan in photographs from copyrighted works or not. Please let me know if the material is clear to you or if I should improve my writing style.

Airavat · Post by **Airavat** » 08 Apr 2010 13:34

Canadian Mounties to be armed with single-shot MP5

The RCMP first issued MP5s to special constables guarding area embassies and diplomatic residences in April 1986, in response to the 1985 Armenian terrorist attack on the Turkish embassy in Ottawa that killed embassy security guard Claude Brunelle. The German-made guns were eventually phased out of service after RCMP officers were issued 9-mm service pistols in 1996.

The force is now planning to bring the MP5s out of storage to arm its protective policing units guarding Parliament Hill and embassies and consulates nationwide with a modified, single-shot "rifle" version of the legendary submachine-gun carried by police and militaries around the world. "With the types of situations that they'll need to deal with — say an active shooter in one of the buildings — a shotgun doesn't really help. You have better accuracy and range with the MP5s," said Sgt. Greg Cox, an RCMP headquarters spokesman.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 14 Apr 2010 10:29

Should India equip its CI troops i.e RR battalions with controlled expansion bullets specially developed for the INSAS?

Avinash R · Post by **Avinash R** » 14 Apr 2010 10:52

Gujarat police to procure 4000 INSAS rifles

In a bid to equip its police force with modern weapons, Gujarat police would be acquiring 4000 Indian Small Arms System (INSAS)rifles in October this year.

"We procured 2,000 INSAS rifles in 2008-09 and will be getting 4,000 more in coming October. INSAS rifles are mostly used by BSF, CRPF and para military forces," a state home department official said.
...

rkhanna · Post by **rkhanna** » 17 Apr 2010 07:51

Food for thought on our proposed Small Arms Upgrade

German Forces Dissatisfied with G-36 in A-Stan

http://www.focus.de/politik/ausland/tid ... 99211.html

In general its the 5.56mm Round.

The G-3 is apparently making a come back with a few German Soldiers

The brits also have the same problem and have been issuing 7.62mm rifles as a stop gap measure to some of their troops..

Pic of a UK soldier with their New 7.62 Rifle (anybody id it?)
http://www.eliteukforces.info/images/ne ... hooter.jpg

German Soldier with a upgraded G3 of sorts

http://img59.imageshack.us/img59/3796/99626968.jpg

khukri · Post by **khukri** » 17 Apr 2010 08:06

rkhanna wrote:Food for thought on our proposed Small Arms Upgrade

The brits also have the same problem and have been issuing 7.62mm rifles as a stop gap measure to some of their troops..

Pic of a UK soldier with their New 7.62 Rifle (anybody id it?)
http://www.eliteukforces.info/images/ne ... hooter.jpg

^^^^^^^^^
new sharpshooter rifle for british army not HK417
from janes
UK selects 7.62 mm Sharpshooter weapon for Afghan ops
Andrew White Jane's Land Reporter
London

UK forces are to receive a semi-automatic 7.62 mm x 51 mm 'sharpshooter' weapon to combat Taliban forces engaging beyond the maximum effective range of the 5.56 mm L85A2 assault rifle.

In a USD2.5 million deal the UK Ministry of Defence (MoD) has contracted Law Enforcement International (LEI) to supply 440 LM7 semi-automatic rifles.

The urgent operational requirement follows calls from troops on the ground for a weapon that can be comfortably patrolled with, can be rapidly initiated and provide an increased range for contacts out to 800 m.

To be redesignated the L129A1, the gas-operated weapon carries a 20-round magazine, is 945 mm long and weighs 5 kg. It will be manufactured by Lewis Machine & Tool Company in the United States, with deliveries expected to begin in early 2010.

Features of the weapon include a single-piece upper receiver and free-floating, quick-change barrels available in 305 mm, 406 mm and 508 mm. It has four Picatinny rails with a 540 mm top rail for night vision, thermal and image intensifying optics. Stock options include fixed or retractable versions.

http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2010 ... 1-lmt-308/

Pranay · Post by **Pranay** » 21 Apr 2010 08:08

Putting Taliban Sniper fire in context... The difference that a trained sniper makes in any engagement. (check the embedded video in the article)

http://atwar.blogs.nytimes.com/2010/04/ ... ontext/?hp

A video and a blog post here on Monday presented a closer look at Taliban snipers, who were an unusual factor in the fighting in Marja this year. To understand the role that Taliban snipers have — or have not — played in the larger Afghan war, a look with more sweep is necessary.

Gaur · Post by **Gaur** » 21 Apr 2010 08:24

^^
Towards the end of the embedded video, the Americans fire Surface to Surface missiles at a compound from which they were taking fire. They miss the target and end up hitting an adjacent compound. This results in killing of 12 civilians including 5 children.
And they wonder why they are not able to make headway in Afghanistan.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 21 Apr 2010 21:22

I think this is a good primer on small arms ballistics for all to get acquainted.

Small Arms Ballistics

Viv S · Post by **Viv S** » 23 Apr 2010 07:03

Oman army all set to use India’s INSAS rifles

The indigenously built rifle was sent to Muscat in March and is currently undergoing trial for the Oman army.
“Oman has informed us that the rifles have successfully passed the trial run. INSAS will, in all likelihood, be the standard assault rifle of the Royal Oman Army,” said an OFB deputy director-rank official, who spoke on condition of anonymity as he is not authorised to speak to the media.
The rifles were subjected to endurance tests for extreme desert temperatures and sandstorms and performed well in both conditions, sources in OFB and Ministry of Defence told Hindustan Times.

The weapon has been sent as part of the India-Oman comprehensive defence agreement of 2003.
“If a deal is struck with Oman, the quantity and size of the deal will not be made public,” said Major General V.K. Narula, additional director general (public relations) of the Indian Army.

atreya · Post by **atreya** » 26 Apr 2010 22:07

Viv S wrote:Oman army all set to use India’s INSAS rifles

The indigenously built rifle was sent to Muscat in March and is currently undergoing trial for the Oman army.
“Oman has informed us that the rifles have successfully passed the trial run. INSAS will, in all likelihood, be the standard assault rifle of the Royal Oman Army,” said an OFB deputy director-rank official, who spoke on condition of anonymity as he is not authorised to speak to the media.
The rifles were subjected to endurance tests for extreme desert temperatures and sandstorms and performed well in both conditions, sources in OFB and Ministry of Defence told Hindustan Times.

The weapon has been sent as part of the India-Oman comprehensive defence agreement of 2003.
“If a deal is struck with Oman, the quantity and size of the deal will not be made public,” said Major General V.K. Narula, additional director general (public relations) of the Indian Army.

That will make three users of INSAS- India, Nepal and Oman!

Viv S · Post by **Viv S** » 27 Apr 2010 00:29

atreya wrote:That will make three users of INSAS- India, Nepal and Oman!

Yup.

Wish they'd get rid of the brown furniture though. I can't for the life of me figure out why they didn't paint it black.