Small Arms Thread

Raghavendra · Post by **Raghavendra** » 17 Apr 2011 12:52

even mango pakistanis are buying imported maal, dailytimes has a report about guns being smuggled in shipping containers, yes that's right, ek ya do nahi pura container baar kar la rahe hein

ArmenT · Post by **ArmenT** » 17 Apr 2011 15:52

ParGha wrote:Plus they have other factories to produce the same arms that the DAK workshops produce; they don't even have to improvise or use dangerous substandard material like the workshops do.

You've hit upon the point sir. Darra workshop quality is rather substandard and lacks durability. A lot of the raw materials are lower quality steel (stolen rails, scrap steel etc.) and since they don't have access to modern tools, they tend to not harden their steel much. People generally advise to underload a made-in-darra weapon, to minimize risk of the barrel and action exploding in their face.

Sandeep_ghosh · Post by **Sandeep_ghosh** » 18 Apr 2011 10:35

shiv wrote:[That's the one mounte on those Coast Guard boats I think

Aditya G wrote:You mean Prahari HMG? Thats different from the Vidwhanshak which is a anti material rifle

Would be nice if vidhwansak could be configured to something similar to barret M82 or better.

Indian Small arms industry's incapability to provide satisfactory weapons has to do a lot with gun laws. One of the reasons USA has produced so many successful weapon systems in small arms is because of the gun culture that prevails in the country. Civilian guns that have been produced are honed to perfection and later modified and adopted by the military services and the cycle continues. best examples that come to mind are the Remington 700 evolving into the M40 and M24 or the tommy gun later being fielded by the US army.

If gun laws in India are relaxed and small gunsmiths are enter the competition, maybe better results compared to the OFB can be achieved.

It is odd that OFB does not have a sniper system for Law enforcement or the Army and we have to use foreign weapon system for the same.

Aditya_V · Post by **Aditya_V** » 18 Apr 2011 16:21

Rahul M and Sandeep Ghosh, please consider the Population densities and education levels, even in Massa places like NY and Boston dont have a huge Gun culture as would it be disastarous in a heavily populated enviorment. It is in Montana, Texas,Upstate NY, Wisconsin, California, Arizona etc.etc and massive barren areas of the US where guns are freely used.

Given the way tempers are frayed in Indian towns, cities and densily populated villages where Cars and Bikes are used as Lethal weapons, free availibilty of Guns is asking for disaster.

Until our Population stabilises and declines along with good economic upliftment, we can have Gun laws like Massa.

Sandeep_ghosh · Post by **Sandeep_ghosh** » 20 Apr 2011 02:08

Aditya_V wrote:Rahul M and Sandeep Ghosh, please consider the Population densities and education levels, even in Massa places like NY and Boston dont have a huge Gun culture as would it be disastarous in a heavily populated enviorment. It is in Montana, Texas,Upstate NY, Wisconsin, California, Arizona etc.etc and massive barren areas of the US where guns are freely used.

Given the way tempers are frayed in Indian towns, cities and densily populated villages where Cars and Bikes are used as Lethal weapons, free availibilty of Guns is asking for disaster.

Until our Population stabilises and declines along with good economic upliftment, we can have Gun laws like Massa.

Sir, i completely agree that we dont need a huge gun culture, but may be we need to make guns available to responsible citizens for protection and sports shooting. I may be wrong but my perception was most of criminal activities were carried out by illegal guns and legal gun owners didn't go on a rampage killing each other over every squabbles. Right now guns can only be owned by people who have right connections or are very rich. There are no private players in the market that develop bolt action or semi auto guns which one day may result into military grade weapon systems.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 20 Apr 2011 02:18

Guys this is a technical thread and not a political discussion thread. So please take it elsewhere.

Anuj A · Post by **Anuj A** » 11 May 2011 14:13

Does anyone know the status of the Zittara (M-TAR) in Indian service?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IMI_Tavor_TAR-21#Variants

As I know the CRPF have started using the M-TAR but I think these are Israeli and not OFB made. And isn't/wasn't the Zittara meant to replace the Sten and be manufacture in LARGE numbers? This deal seems to have been going on a long time.

Airavat · Post by **Airavat** » 21 May 2011 08:22

Malaysia has suggested producing the assault rifle Colt M4 Carbine with Indonesia and Thailand under the Asean Defence Industry Collaboration programme. The Malaysian arms company SME Ordnance Sdn Bhd signed an agreement with Colt Defence LLC in 2007 to buy 14,000 Colt M4 carbines, all of which were delivered in June 2008.

SME signed another contract with the company in February this year for the supply of 116,000 carbines over seven years, the delivery pending the approval of the US Congress. After the transfer of technology, Malaysia would be allowed to sell locally made carbines to Brunei, Indonesia, the Philippines, Thailand and other countries using the Colt M4.

Malaysia Suggests Producing Assault Rifle With Asean Partners

chackojoseph · Post by **chackojoseph** » 21 May 2011 09:27

OFB-DRDO offer Milap carbine to Army

After an earlier plan to make a carbine in association with a global firm M/s Singapore Technologies went haywire following an alleged corruption scandal, OFB has now tied up with Defence Research and Development Organisation (DRDO) to produce the weapon. Named Milap, for the joint venture, the OFB-DRDO carbine is expected to be shortly presented to the Army for trials.

The cost of making Milap is estimated to be Rs 50,000, which is half of what it was envisaged with Singapore Technologies.

Earlier, the OFB had developed a 5.56 mm carbine Amogh. However, it did not get the acceptability among forces. The weapon was offered to both Army as well as the central paramilitary forces. However, both did not show much interest in it, said a source.

Gaur · Post by **Gaur** » 21 May 2011 11:26

^^
Sirji,
Do you have any idea regarding what happened to MSMC?

chackojoseph · Post by **chackojoseph** » 21 May 2011 12:07

No updates after its tests sir.

koti · Post by **koti** » 21 May 2011 18:28

Not so fruitful I think. Our Paramilitary forces are inducting MP7 and Brügger & Thomet MP5 in numbers.

Kailash · Post by **Kailash** » 23 May 2011 14:19

Neither DRDO nor OFB sites seem to have the specs of Milap.

pragnya · Post by **pragnya** » 31 May 2011 11:13

Sandeep Unnithan is one of the few defence journos who have credibility wrt defence reporting IMO. the following is from his report.

In development for close on to a decade, it struggled with weight and performance issues. The weight has now dropped to an acceptable 3.1kg and a reliability of 99.4 per cent (3 stoppages for every 1,000 rounds fired) but the Army wants it to reach 99.7 per cent. The Army will buy 2.18 lakh of the carbines for Rs 2,183 crore if the MSMC passes the test.

http://indiatoday.intoday.in/site/story ... 37309.html

now is it correct that MSMC has the reliability and weight reduction as he mentions in his report?? if yes, is the IA unreasonable to not accept them because they want 99.7% reliability instead of 99.4%?? infact that seems to be the condition for induction!!

OTOH does 0.3% gain in reliability give such overwhelming superiority that you reject the one 0.3% less reliability?? can't this be rectified down the line??

am confused. can somebody clarify?? TIA.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 31 May 2011 12:05

I dont know what conditions of test the 1000rds are expected to be fire. 1 jam per 330 rounds fire being the current benchmark, it compares ok to what US army found in its extreme dust tests with tfta kit. not sure if the IA test is just firing off in good conditions with no dust, in which case they might expect more.

reading about the US army tests of HK, FN and Colt rifles..
http://www.defenseindustrydaily.com/the ... 9/#testing

the M4 had one jam every 68 rounds.
one excerpt:

We’ll begin with the Army’s overall results, from its own release:

“Even with extreme dust test III’s 98.6 percent success rate there was a total of 863 class 1 and 2 weapon/magazine stoppages with 19 class 3 stoppages. During extreme dust test II conducted during the summer, there were 296 total class 1 and 2 stoppages and 11 class 3 stoppages.

A class 1 stoppage is one a Soldier can clear within 10 seconds; a class 2 stoppage is one a Soldier can clear, but requires more than 10 seconds; and, class 3 is a stoppage that requires an armorer to clear.”

DID will simply point out that 10 seconds can be a rather fatally long time when people are shooting at you, and at your friends. So, what happens when the Extreme Dust Test III stoppages are broken out by weapon?

The M4 Carbine is the Army’s existing weapon.

882 jams, 1 jam every 68 rounds, again using heavy lubrication. In addition all 10 of the M4 barrels needed to be replaced, and a number of their parts were replaced during the test. None of the cold hammer forged HK416 and XM-8 barrels needed replacement.

The HK416 is a modified M4 carbine, which can be and has been converted from existing rifles. Used by US Special Forces.

233 jams, 1 jam every 257 rounds, 3.77x more reliable than the M4.

FN SCAR is US special Forces’ new weapon, designed by SOSOCM. It just went into production in late 2007.

226 jams, 1 jam every 265 rounds, 3.85x more reliable than the M4

XM-8 is a developmental rifle. It’s an advanced version of HK’s G36, a rifle in wide use by many NATO armies. The US Army cancelled the XM-8 weapons family 2 years ago.

127 jams, I jam every 472 rounds, 6.95x more reliable than the M4.

The failure of M4 barrels at 6,000 rounds confirms SOCOM objections that date back to the Feb 23/01 report “M4A1 5.56mm Carbine and Related Systems Deficiencies and Solutions,” which ended up concluding that “M4A1 Carbine… does not meet the requirements of SOF.” The barrel replacement also increases the rifle’s life cycle costs when compared with the 10,000 round advertised barrel life, as additional barrels are sold to the Army for $240 each. A longer, heavier M16 barrel, which is a competed production weapon, cost $100 by comparison. While the dust test is indeed an extreme test, the 10,000 round requirement is under “all conditions” – not just ideal conditions.

ArmenT · Post by **ArmenT** » 31 May 2011 12:45

pragnya wrote:Sandeep Unnithan is one of the few defence journos who have credibility wrt defence reporting IMO. the following is from his report.

In development for close on to a decade, it struggled with weight and performance issues. The weight has now dropped to an acceptable 3.1kg and a reliability of 99.4 per cent (3 stoppages for every 1,000 rounds fired) but the Army wants it to reach 99.7 per cent. The Army will buy 2.18 lakh of the carbines for Rs 2,183 crore if the MSMC passes the test.

<nitpick>99.4% equates to 6 stoppages for every 1000 rounds fired. 99.7% is 3 stoppages per 1000 rounds.</nitpick>
Also we don't know what the circumstances of the test are (i.e.) are they to be fired in muddy conditions, with low-quality ammo etc.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 31 May 2011 12:58

conditions could vary , but ammo I think will be std OFB ammo as the end user will use day to day, not special ammo.
for IA they'd surely need monsoon, dust, extreme cold weather and extreme hot weather test.

ArmenT · Post by **ArmenT** » 31 May 2011 13:11

For what it is worth, here's some other military acceptance tests (for pistols though, not for carbines, but the tests might be similar):
http://firearmshistory.blogspot.com/201 ... tance.html

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 31 May 2011 21:22

IA should seek 100% reliability! Why settle for 99.7%?
That way they will keep improving for ever.

ParGha · Post by **ParGha** » 01 Jun 2011 01:15

ramana wrote:IA should seek 100% reliability! Why settle for 99.7%? That way they will keep improving for ever.

I would rather have an INSAS or an AKM than a MSMC. At the present 2.98kg empty load, I just don't see it as worthy of trading in the tactical flexibility offered by the assault rifles. Keep improving.

vic · Post by **vic** » 01 Jun 2011 10:04

If DRDO develops better propellants for INSAS 5.56x45mm round then the basic rifle barrel length can be reduced to 10inches and it will be a suitable carbine without introducing another caliber in armoury. Having said this, MSMC is basically a replacement for 9mm caliber and my guess is that it will be used very extensively in police and para-military in times to come.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 01 Jun 2011 10:26

99.6% in dust test would being it on par with the tfta HK and FN-scar. i.e 1 jam every 250 rounds fired. right now it seems to be at par or better than the M4 colt in that benchmark.

there are benefits to having a local weapon given we need millions of carbines to re-equip central paramils and state police away from the ancient combo of sterling, lee enfield 303, shotguns, old AKs and hand-me-down FNFAL SLRs seen...

a similar effort to move away from the 6 chamber revolver to next-gen Glock type pistol with a 10-15 round mag would be great...finally would give police the smart firepower they need. and the IA could use it too and phase the revolvers out...maybe give them to pvt security agencies who guard banks and such...far more reliable and practical than the unweildy shotguns seen

for goonda effect maybe have 2 revolvers such that 12 quick rounds can be pumped out - a 6X firepower improvement over a 2 rd shotgun.

or maybe a pump action shotgun atleast...throw me a bone here

pragnya · Post by **pragnya** » 01 Jun 2011 10:59

thanks Singha and ArmenT for the input.

i don't understand rifles/guns etc..and my knowledge is next to nill. may be both of you are right when are speaking of 'test conditions' but if i read sandeep's report again, he says 'The weight has now dropped to an acceptable 3.1kg and a reliability of 99.4 per cent (3 stoppages for every 1,000 rounds fired) but the Army wants it to reach 99.7 per cent' which is rather explicit though not direct as in words but to my mind however gives a feeling that those tests 'include' all known test conditions particularly when i read this line - 'reliability of 99.4 per cent'. i could be wrong.

still begs the question - even if it 95% reliable, is it not good enough given we can improve upon it further as we move forward with active involvement of the users?? just because it is '0.3%' less reliable for the user, can it be thrown out?? forget the hardwork and cost of investment, how demoralising would it be to the designers??

and lastly can any similar foreign product will be 99.7% reliable at all times?? can they guarantee that??

Sandeep_ghosh · Post by **Sandeep_ghosh** » 01 Jun 2011 13:18

What kind of 5.56 round does the indian army use for testing any weapon system ?

Gaur · Post by **Gaur** » 01 Jun 2011 13:43

Sandeep_ghosh wrote:What kind of 5.56 round does the indian army use for testing any weapon system ?

Obviously that particular weapon's round. For MSMC, that would be OFB's 5.56*30mm round.

Sandeep_ghosh · Post by **Sandeep_ghosh** » 01 Jun 2011 13:56

Gaur wrote: Obviously that particular weapon's round. For MSMC, that would be OFB's 5.56*30mm round.

FMJ/FMJBT/AP/HP/ST? 55grain/62 grain/63 grain/? STD Mil issue/ or match grade ammo ?

Gaur · Post by **Gaur** » 01 Jun 2011 15:23

^^
No idea. However, I doubt if OFB would be making any other than FMJ (with whatever standard grain and tolerance values they may have) at this early stage. Anyway, this is just a guess as I have no idea of the test process.

Kersi D · Post by **Kersi D** » 01 Jun 2011 18:55

ramana wrote:IA should seek 100% reliability! Why settle for 99.7%?
That way they will keep improving for ever.

And we will keep buying foren maal

K

Gaur · Post by **Gaur** » 03 Jun 2011 01:44

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-rSRfzAOVbGw/T ... C_0149.JPG

Is the Paratrooper in the background holding MSMC? Or is it Micro Uzi? I know that since MSMC is still under trails however I was curious when I say that pic.

Sandeep_ghosh · Post by **Sandeep_ghosh** » 03 Jun 2011 06:02

Does Indian Establishment has any plans of producing a decent Sniper system?. its a shame that we have to use Foreign small arms for the designated marksman in the army and special forces

koti · Post by **koti** » 15 Jun 2011 22:14

For those of you who preferred Insas LMG to be closer to a SAW...

http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2011 ... h-m27-iar/

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 15 Jun 2011 22:38

Sandeep_ghosh wrote:Does Indian Establishment has any plans of producing a decent Sniper system?. its a shame that we have to use Foreign small arms for the designated marksman in the army and special forces

Check the OFB page. They seem to have Russian designed stuff made under licence. There maybe conversions of the .303 also.

Sid · Post by **Sid** » 16 Jun 2011 04:49

Gaur wrote:]http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-rSRfzAOVbGw/T ... C_0149.JPG

Is the Paratrooper in the background holding MSMC? Or is it Micro Uzi? I know that since MSMC is still under trails however I was curious when I say that pic.

Looks like a micro ooozeee.

fredleander · Post by **fredleander** » 18 Jun 2011 03:08

Sid wrote:
Gaur wrote:http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-rSRfzAOVbGw/T ... C_0149.JPG

Is the Paratrooper in the background holding MSMC? Or is it Micro Uzi? I know that since MSMC is still under trails however I was curious when I say that pic.
Looks like a micro ooozeee.

Or a Skorpion....

fredleander · Post by **fredleander** » 18 Jun 2011 03:14

ramana wrote:IA should seek 100% reliability! Why settle for 99.7%?
That way they will keep improving for ever.

For many years I was issued the HK G3. I never, ever had a misfire. I never cleaned it, just pulled through the barrel on the shooting range and gave the mechanism a tiny bit of thin oil periodically. They wanted me to switch to the MP5 but I refused. That said, I prefer the 5.56 NATO cartridge.

fredleander · Post by **fredleander** » 18 Jun 2011 03:26

ArmenT wrote:
Singha wrote:ok - my mental idea was:
single shot - 1 shot (IA FN_FAL had this and nothing else?)
semi auto - 3 or 4 shots for every sustained pull of trigger (INSAS has the single shot mode and this mode - if u call it that..maybe "3 shot mode" is a better name?)
full auto - keep the trigger pressed to empty the whole mag. (AK series has it, so does MP series and Sterling)
Your definition is slightly incorrect.

Single shot means it goes bang when you pull the trigger, but you need to manipulate levers manually to load the next shot in.

Semi-auto mode means that it fires one shot with every trigger pull. However, it automatically loads the next round for you and you only need to release and pull the trigger again to fire again. Indian FAL clone (1A1) had this mode only. Since it only had this firing mode, it is technically called an SLR (self loading rifle)

Burst mode: This is where it fires X rounds with each trigger pull (where X is usually 2-4 rounds or so). M16A2 model has this feature, along with semi-automatic mode.

Full-auto: It will keep firing as long as you hold the trigger down and there is ammunition available in the magazine. M16A1 model has this feature, but they changed it in M16A2 to have a burst mode instead, because soldiers kept wasting too much ammo.

While I concurr with your definitions, on a selective-fire rifle or mg, the selector is usually named "single" or "auto" on the selector switch, if I remember correctly.

Gaur · Post by **Gaur** » 23 Jun 2011 05:18

Just came across this pic of MSMC:
http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_zUe7sq7m3h0/T ... arbine.jpg

Notice the F-INSAS info posted in the background. It shows the multi calibre weapon being developed by ARDE. Doesn't it look totally like a modified FN-2000? Also, its surprising that we are going for a Bullup design. Guess IA is very impressed with Tavors.

jamwal · Post by **jamwal** » 23 Jun 2011 10:22

fredleander wrote:
ramana wrote:IA should seek 100% reliability! Why settle for 99.7%?
That way they will keep improving for ever.
For many years I was issued the HK G3. I never, ever had a misfire. I never cleaned it, just pulled through the barrel on the shooting range and gave the mechanism a tiny bit of thin oil periodically. They wanted me to switch to the MP5 but I refused. That said, I prefer the 5.56 NATO cartridge.

What about your team mates ?

koti · Post by **koti** » 23 Jun 2011 22:11

The first time I have seen black furniture Insas Rifles in Indian service.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GHQtJYdSAbQ

JE Menon · Post by **JE Menon** » 25 Jun 2011 20:14

Gaur wrote:http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-rSRfzAOVbGw/T ... C_0149.JPG

Is the Paratrooper in the background holding MSMC? Or is it Micro Uzi? I know that since MSMC is still under trails however I was curious when I say that pic.

I'm more interested in that officer with dark glasses and no visible patches... Obviously senior, but any idea who he is?