Small Arms Thread

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Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby Thakur_B » 27 Apr 2015 07:15

Karthik S wrote:Could someone please tell me why not all of all of them have the UBGL? Like in above pic only 1 solider has it.


Its a section/squad weapon. This is in addition to the Milkor.

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Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby shiv » 27 Apr 2015 08:37

Karthik S wrote:Could someone please tell me why not all of all of them have the UBGL? Like in above pic only 1 solider has it.

The roles that some soldiers play do not require them all to have UBGLs. Soldiers work in teams - which like football or cricket teams have people for certain specialized roles. Every soldier is not equipped to the a "one man army".

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Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby Viv S » 27 Apr 2015 09:11

Karthik S wrote:Could someone please tell me why not all of all of them have the UBGL? Like in above pic only 1 solider has it.


A rifle with a UBGL will never be as effective in normal operation as one without. And when you need that sort of volume of heavy support, there are more efficient ways to doing so.


Image

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Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby Thakur_B » 27 Apr 2015 18:44

AKM with modernised furniture (not Ghatak) spotted with COBRA units.
Image
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Kunal Biswas, one of the Mods at DFI once inquired at the MKU stall about picatinny rail furniture at MKU stall. They offer picatinny rails for INSAS and AKM on special request from servicemen.
Image
Image
-----------------------------------
In other news, Ghatak AKM has cleared all trials conducted by the paramilitary.

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Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby vaibhav.n » 30 Apr 2015 07:01

Sometimes you just wish they either take a call or just produce the Tavor in larger numbers for the IA........Sigh!!

The Indian Army's long-delayed efforts to procure 5.56 mm close quarter carbines and multi-calibre assault rifles have hit another roadblock.

Official sources said user trials featuring three rival carbines - the IWI Galil Ace 21, Beretta ARX160, and Colt M4 - were completed about the end of 2013, but the Ministry of Defence (MoD) is yet to determine the winner of the December 2010 tender.

The tender requires the gun to weigh less than 3 kg and be capable of firing 600 rounds per minute to a minimum distance of 200 m. The army is seeking to procure 44,618 carbines to replace its Stirling-derived 1A1 9 mm sub-machine gun and 33.6 million rounds in a contract worth about INR20 billion (USD327 million).

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Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby Viv S » 01 May 2015 02:37

Anyone have any idea what the Joint Venture Protective Carbine (JVPC) is? Being co-developed by DRDO and OFB?

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Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby Thakur_B » 01 May 2015 07:33

Viv S wrote:Anyone have any idea what the Joint Venture Protective Carbine (JVPC) is? Being co-developed by DRDO and OFB?


Purgatory of trials.

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Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby Gyan » 01 May 2015 09:49

Note:- Army wants to import rounds along with carbines as even foreign carbines cannot fire Indian rounds but INSAS carbine was blamed only for the reason that there was too much flash when it fired Indian rounds.

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Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby Thakur_B » 01 May 2015 20:28

Gyan wrote:Note:- Army wants to import rounds along with carbines as even foreign carbines cannot fire Indian rounds but INSAS carbine was blamed only for the reason that there was too much flash when it fired Indian rounds.


Moreover the OFB already lists SS109 and M193 equivalent rounds in its product list and has been exporting them for several years as well. Several posters on MP.net confirmed that they received made in India rounds during their tours of Iraq and Afghanistan.

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Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby ArmenT » 03 May 2015 11:27

Thakur_B wrote:Moreover the OFB already lists SS109 and M193 equivalent rounds in its product list and has been exporting them for several years as well. Several posters on MP.net confirmed that they received made in India rounds during their tours of Iraq and Afghanistan.

Really? Links would be useful.

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Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby vaibhav.n » 03 May 2015 12:32

IIRC..OFB made 5.56 rounds were supplied to the British Army during the Iraq campaign. They wanted to try out hotter rounds....

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Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby Gyan » 04 May 2015 11:58

I am not saying India cannot make NATO round or that INSAS rifle cannot fire NATO round but that INDIAN round is slightly different from NATO round and not suitable for carbines. Also if everything is great, why import of ammo by India?

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Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby Thakur_B » 04 May 2015 12:05

Gyan wrote:I am not saying India cannot make NATO round or that INSAS rifle cannot fire NATO round but that INDIAN round is slightly different from NATO round and not suitable for carbines.


OFB makes three types of 5.56 ammunition
5.56 Ball INSAS http://ofbindia.gov.in/products/data/am ... n/sc/1.htm
5.56 Ball Mark M NATO (M193 equivalent) http://ofbindia.gov.in/products/data/am ... /sc/21.htm
5.56 Ball Mark N NATO (SS109 equivalent) http://ofbindia.gov.in/products/data/am ... /sc/18.htm
Also if everything is great, why import of ammo by India?

The system is rotten to the core.
Last edited by Thakur_B on 05 May 2015 05:28, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby rkhanna » 04 May 2015 12:16

Thakur_B wrote:
Moreover the OFB already lists SS109 and M193 equivalent rounds in its product list and has been exporting them for several years as well. Several posters on MP.net confirmed that they received made in India rounds during their tours of Iraq and Afghanistan.

Really? Links would be usefu


Links would be most helpful. Previously I have read mediocre to average feedback on the OFB rounds.

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Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby shiv » 04 May 2015 13:17

rkhanna wrote:Links would be most helpful. Previously I have read mediocre to average feedback on the OFB rounds.

If you visit Indian gun forums and some that call themselves Indian but are full of America apologists you will never ever see anything positive about any Indian firearms or ammunition. Ironically it is the firangis who are less scathing that Indians or raha rah America Indians

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Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby rkhanna » 04 May 2015 13:44

If you visit Indian gun forums and some that call themselves Indian but are full of America apologists you will never ever see anything positive about any Indian firearms or ammunition. Ironically it is the firangis who are less scathing that Indians or raha rah America Indians


@Shiv - My info is from a variety of sources not from 'Gun Forums' (including some US Servicemen) . When I inquired the same from some people I know in the Army the views were not wholly different either.

The ONE caveat I do know that this was circa 2003-2004 (if I am not wrong) the OFB has done a pretty good job of upping the manufacturing quality since then.

Also (my assumption?)- when OFB was shipping ammo (NATO Spec) to other places they were in the early days into their Manufacturing process and the learning curve took time to develop standardized quality.

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Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby Thakur_B » 04 May 2015 16:18

rkhanna wrote:
Thakur_B wrote:
Moreover the OFB already lists SS109 and M193 equivalent rounds in its product list and has been exporting them for several years as well. Several posters on MP.net confirmed that they received made in India rounds during their tours of Iraq and Afghanistan.

Really? Links would be usefu


Links would be most helpful. Previously I have read mediocre to average feedback on the OFB rounds.


I can't find the forum posts right now, but it was mentioned that ammunition got shipped to them from all places close to the theater to save costs.

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Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby Gyan » 04 May 2015 22:35

My guess is that OFB 7.62x51 LMG would be something like Israeli Negev N7

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Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby Thakur_B » 05 May 2015 05:34

MHA is going to replace a large number of INSAS in naxal areas with AKMs (most likely Ghatak now) and 50% of INSAS in J&K with AKMs.

--------------
OFB seems to be gearing up for a decent production run of Ghatak.
Image

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Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby Viv S » 05 May 2015 11:25

Bid opening at 14.30 Hrs and closing at 14.00 Hrs.


Note: For further details on Time Travel please visit our website ofbeproc.gov.in.

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Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby Karan M » 05 May 2015 11:53

Bid submission closes at 14:00
Bid is opened at 14:30
Last edited by Karan M on 05 May 2015 12:04, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby Karan M » 05 May 2015 11:55

33K rifles? Not bad. A start at least..

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Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby vaibhav.n » 07 May 2015 08:18

The home ministry sanctioned the procurement of guns two days ago following a demand from the CRPF which has been pending with the ministry for almost a year. The sanction, however, is partial fulfillment of CRPF demands. The force had sent a proposal to the home ministry last year for 100% replacement of all its INSAS guns with AK-47 rifles in Maoist areas, 50% in Jammu and Kashmir and similar grading percentage for various other theatres. "The sanction is location specific i.e. limited to Naxal-affected districts and Jammu and Kashmir. In rest of the country, the force will continue using INSAS. The decision has been taken according to the operational requirement of the force," a senior home ministry official said.

Over 40% of guns used by the three lakh strong force currently are INSAS guns built by Defence Research Development Organisation (DRDO). The development means procurement of over 67,000 AK guns at a cost of Rs 150 crore. While 54,000 AK-47s will be provided to forces in Naxal areas, about 13,000 will go to J&K. In its proposal, CRPF had said the INSAS gun gets frequently jammed at crucial times and is a danger to the life of jawans during anti-Naxal and anti-insurgency operations. It had said that compared to AK and X-95 guns, Insas fails far more frequently. While the error percentage in AK guns is 0.02%, in Insas it is 3%. INSAS, however, has longer range (of firing) than AK 47. "But that can be compensated with other weapons we have. What we can't afford is a gun jamming during an encounter. Thankfully, the government has realized that the lives of our jawans are more important than promotion of faulty indigenous technology," a CRPF officer said.

The move is a fallout of the government's push to the forces to launch all-out offensive against Maoists. This has resulted in the force increasingly using area weapons such as 81 mm mortar guns and automatic grenade launchers.

The existing strength of AK-47 guns in a J&K battalion currently is 217. It is going to be doubled to 435. For the Naxal theatre, the AK-47 strength in a battalion will go up from 217 to 869. The sanction for provision of AK-47 to a battalion of the elite Combat Battalion for Resolute Action (CoBRA) has been increased from 180 to 468 by phasing out the 108 INSAS and 360 SLRs per battalion. A CoBRA battalion will now have 648 AK-47s and 90 Light Automatic Rifles/Fusil Automatic Leger (semi-automatic rifles). As many as 60 battalions (60,000 personnel) of the CRPF are deployed in J&K and 77 battalions are deployed in the Naxal theatre.



Link:http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/india/CRPF-deployed-in-Red-zones-will-get-AK-47s/articleshow/47056164.cms

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Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby member_22539 » 07 May 2015 09:42

^Are these guns going to be the new Ghatak assault rifles made by OFB?

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Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby Viv S » 07 May 2015 09:48

Karan M wrote:Bid submission closes at 14:00
Bid is opened at 14:30


That makes sense. I didn't realise they had proper opening procedure for e-bids as well.

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Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby vaibhav.n » 08 May 2015 06:27

Delhi HC notice to Centre for not phasing out ‘defective’ INSAS rifles

The Delhi High Court on Wednesday issued a notice to the Home and the Defence Ministries on a PIL alleging that ‘defective’ INSAS rifles were being given to CRPF and other paramilitary forces.

A PIL filed by retired Lt Col Deepak Malhotra, who fought in the 1971 Indo-Pak and 1999 Kargil wars, has stated that the Defence Minister had informed Parliament in 2012 that indigenous INSAS rifles would be phased out by 2014, as they were “defective and outdated,” but nothing had been done so far.

The PIL alleged that the lack of new-generation rifles had “repeatedly resulted in death and injury to the brave jawans of the Indian Army and para-military services” while fighting “well-equipped” Maoists and terrorists.

The PIL has asked the court to look into records of the “long-pending decision” to replace the rifles, and has sought orders to phase out the INSAS rifles and replace them with modern firearms.

The court of Chief justice G Rohini and Justice R S Endlaw directed the Defence Ministry to take its decision over the steps taken to replace the INSAS rifles within 10 weeks.

The court, while issuing notice to the Ministries also said that the government “introduced new fighter planes time and again.” “Why are you not thinking on this aspect? you should do something for these people,” said the court.

Senior advocate Meet Malhotra, appearing for the petitioner, argued that if the INSAS rifles were “good”, they should be “used for VIP security.”
:mrgreen:


Link:http://indianexpress.com/article/india/india-others/delhi-hc-sends-notice-to-centre-asking-whether-insas-rifles-being-given-to-crpf-jawans/

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Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby VinodTK » 20 May 2015 03:44

Hunt for Army assault rifle may be called off
NEW DELHI: The humble foot-soldier's torturous wait for a new-generation assault rifle may now get longer. India is likely to scrap its four-year-old hunt for new-generation assault rifles with interchangeable barrels for conventional warfare and counter-insurgency operations.

Ordinary infantry jawans are often forgotten in the race for acquiring big-ticket weapons like fighters, helicopters, submarines, tanks, howitzers and the like. Leave alone advanced weaponry, they are even now still to be adequately-equipped with modular bullet-proof jackets, webbing and light-weight ballistic helmets with internal communication gear.

Consequently, the 1.18-million strong Army's quest for new rifles for its 382 infantry battalions was made a "Priority-1" project to address the neglect. But sources on Tuesday said the double-barrel foreign rifles on offer - with a 5.56x45mm primary barrel for conventional warfare and a 7.62x39mm secondary one for counter-terror operations - have "not been found robust enough" for the military operations envisaged when the global tender was floated in 2011.

The project was to kick off with the direct acquisition of 65,000 rifles from the selected foreign vendor, at an estimated cost of around Rs 4,850 crore, to equip the 120 infantry battalions deployed on the western and eastern fronts. The Ordnance Factory Board (OFB) was to then subsequently manufacture over 1,13,000 such rifles after getting transfer of technology from the foreign company.

"Though no final decision has yet been taken, the tender may have to be scrapped. There is a rethink about going in for double-barrel rifles. Other options are already been considered," said a source.

One could be to get a foreign rifle company to shift some of its manufacturing facilities to India. Incidentally, foreign firms like Colt (US), Beretta (Italy), Sig Sauer (Europe), Ceska (Czech) and Israel Weapon Industries (IWI) participated in the trials for the double-barrel rifles.

Conversely, the OFB could produce the new assault rifles with foreign collaboration. Weighing around 3.5-kg, the new rifle will need to have advanced night-vision devices, holographic reflex sights, laser designators, detachable under-barrel grenade launchers and the like.

The Army has for long been keen to replace its 5.56mm indigenous INSAS (Indian small arms system) rifles that have suffered from technical bugs since their induction in 1994-95, as reported by TOI earlier.

With an effective range of just 450-metre and weighing over 4.25-kg, INSAS rifles had replaced the even more cumbersome 7.62mm self-loading rifles. The Army also uses over one lakh AK-47s, known the world over for their sheer ruggedness and fail-safe nature, for counter-insurgency operations in J&K and northeast.

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Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby Nitesh » 20 May 2015 10:01

This news is confusing, so we will not be going ahead with new rifles at all, or will not be going with imported ones :). MCIWS is winner?

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Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby Thakur_B » 21 May 2015 07:09

Not robust enough. Guess the CQB proqurement will also bite dust as it had the same competitors and failures were reported in that too.

http://www.janes.com/article/39829/indi ... ine-trials

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Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby vaibhav.n » 21 May 2015 07:39

Ohh...Wish they just get the Tavor and end this tamasha!!

Image
Last edited by vaibhav.n on 22 May 2015 00:23, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby Mihir » 21 May 2015 07:43

With an effective range of just 450-metre . . .

:lol:

The Army also uses over one lakh AK-47s, known the world over for their sheer ruggedness and fail-safe nature, for counter-insurgency operations in J&K and northeast.

No. Just no. Nobody uses AK-47s anymore.

But it's written by Rajat Pandit. So it's all par for the course . . .

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Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby ramana » 21 May 2015 10:10


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Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby tsarkar » 21 May 2015 13:29

The 7.62x51 is a good round, and Pakistan regular Army is still issued with H&K G3 chambered for it.

It only requires well trained soldiers and good fire discipline.

A soldiers's ability to auto or burst fire 5.56mm boosts his morale under fire, but that's the only benefit I see. The practice of volume of fire IMVVHO is ineffective.

Would be interested in any comparative studies of hits to rounds fired ratio in combat of 7.62 mm vs 5.56 mm.

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Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby Thakur_B » 22 May 2015 07:52

vaibhav.n wrote:Ohh...Wish they just get the Tavor and end this tamasha!!



Indeed. Tavor 7.62 mm NATO variant is already in works and 7.62x39 should be totally doable. The X95 is already modular with 5.56 NATO, 5.45x39 and 9 mm variants in production. Not to mention that a full sized rifle comes in the size package of carbine.

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Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby Karan M » 22 May 2015 07:59

Mihir wrote:
With an effective range of just 450-metre . . .

:lol:


Clearly the INSAS should have a range of 10km per his highness Pandit.

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Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby vaibhav.n » 22 May 2015 08:06

Thakur_B wrote:
vaibhav.n wrote:Ohh...Wish they just get the Tavor and end this tamasha!!



Indeed. Tavor 7.62 mm NATO variant is already in works and 7.62x39 should be totally doable. The X95 is already modular with 5.56 NATO, 5.45x39 and 9 mm variants in production. Not to mention that a full sized rifle comes in the size package of carbine.


Exactly, It is a known weapon. It has a good reputation in SF units for reliability and accuracy. A long stroke piston OFB will be familiar with and complete plastic body that the OFB cant screw up...

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Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby Karan M » 22 May 2015 08:28

Didn't the Tavor program end up as a victim of the OFB head being bribed by the IMI guys and what not?

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Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby Thakur_B » 22 May 2015 22:07

1. Development of MRAR : DAC for procurement of 1,87,825 nos Assault Rifle was taken on
20.11.2009 as BUY and MAKE’ designating OFB as Nodal Production Agency (NPA). RFP
issued on 19.11.2011. User trials conducted at Leh and Bakloh Cantt. RFI isthe nodal factory
for absorption of ToT and productionization along with OFT.
2. Development of CQB carbine : DAC decision was taken in Feb 2006 for procurement of
1,60,082 nos of CQB carbine as BUY and MAKE designating OFB as nodal Production
Agency (NPA), RFP was issued in 2010 . Confirmatory Trials completed in August 2014. Gs
evaluation is under process. OFPKR has been identified for absorption of ToT and production.
However, SAF is also equipped to provide support to OFPKR.
3. Development of 12.7 mm SRCG : DAC accorded approval for procurement of 747 nos SRCG.
RFP issued in October, 2013, TEC concluded in June,2014. Field evaluation trial expected
from December, 2014 to February, 2014. This will provide workload to OFT.
4. Development of 7.62 mm LMG : DAC decision was taken in 2013 for procurement of 44,559
nos of 7.62 mm LMG as BUY and MAKE designating OFB as Nodal Production agency
(NPA). RFP issued in 2014. TEC concluded on 21.11.2014. this will provide workload for
SAF. 7

5. Development of JVPC : Carbine 5.56mm was taken up for development by ARDE in 1982 along
with INSAS Rifle & LMG. First prototype (single trigger) was made ready in 1987 for User
trial. Subsequently, double trigger was demonstrated in 1988. However, Army issued GSQR
No. 880 for Modern Sun-Machine Carbine in 2001. DAC accorded AON in 2006 for 2, 18,320
as MAKE by OFB. In April 2009 OFB started development in association with ARDE for
development for JVPC. 20 nos weapons manufactured in August 2011. User assisted technical
trials conducted with two weapons in August, 2013 and both the weapons have met
requirement of GSQR No. 880. Trial directive issued on 05.09.2014. User trial expected from
Jan 2015. SAF is the nodal factory.
6. Development of MCIWS : OFB in association with ARDE has taken up the project as per GSQR
No. 1379. ARDE has placed SWOD on RFI for barrels. 5.56mm and 7.67mm(?) barrels are
under manufacture and to be supplied by Dec, 2014. Designing of 6.83mm (?) barrel is under
finalisation with ARDE.
OFB simultaneously has undertaken following IRD projects to obtain workload from users:
RFI
i. 12 Bore PAG : Sale to nationalized Bands.
ii. 5.56mm Ex-Calibur Rifle : This weapon has the potential to replace INSAS Rifles
developed by RFI. PMS allocation received for 1454 nos.
iii. 7.62mm Assault Rifle (Ghaatak) : RFI, SAF has developed this weapon and successfully
trial evaluated by BoO of MHA. PMS allocation received for 3007 nos.
SAF
i. Anamika 9mm Carbine : SAF is developing this weapon by reverse engineering process.
MHA is regularly enquired for this project. Successful development will provide sustained
workload for SAF.
ii. Amogh 5.56mm Carbine : There is substantial workload from Navy and various SPOs
for this weapon.
OFT
i. 40mm MGL : Army has placed an indent for supply of 1670 nos of 40mm MGL. OFT
will supply after successful validation trial by Army & MHA.
ii. 38mm MSL : BoD of MHA has concluded the User trial in Nov,2013 and recommended
for induction of 38mm MSL in Law enforcing Agencies of the country. Later on MHA has
projected requirement of 815 nos of 38mm MSL.
iii. AGS-30: Army is regularly enquiring about the project. 5 prototypes have been developed
with indigenized components and are ready for in-house trials. After successful trial
evaluation, workload may be obtained.

PKTM Gun : Presently the development of PKTM gun is under progress with the help of trade
sources and also within the sources of OFT. Army has been expedited for placement of indent for
supply of spares of PKTM gun.


http://bpms.org.in/documents/axn-tkn-on ... b-en3c.pdf

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Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby Cosmo_R » 28 May 2015 02:17

This is old news but what struck me is that pakis have been producing H&K Mp5s and even exporting them while we are struggling to import them. Is this still true?

"At the same time the 4.6mm cartridge used in an MP7 gun has a much superior penetration power. Interestingly, Pakistan also manufactures MP5 guns, under licence from H&K, and sells to several Asian nations.

For the same reason, the experts claimed, the MP5 would fail to provide an edge to the Indian forces. The German government had earlier raised a red flag while issuing the End User Certificate, claiming that the gun would be used in some Indian states which are the under the lens for their 'bad human rights record'. But later, the deal was cleared."

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/indiahome/in ... tacks.html

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Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby Thakur_B » 28 May 2015 07:19

Cosmo_R wrote:This is old news but what struck me is that pakis have been producing H&K Mp5s and even exporting them while we are struggling to import them. Is this still true?


Last checked, yes. The purchase of Mx4 storm was precisely a result of mp5 denial. Pakistan acquired MP5 manufacturing license way back, that's why they don't have any issues.

The "reverse engineered" Anamika 9 mm carbine should fix that (I hope they reverse engineer Uzi/Micro Uzi or do a compact 9 mm blow back variant of Milap)


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