Small Arms Thread

nachiket
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Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby nachiket » 05 Feb 2019 03:54

From what I have read, the GSQR for the INSAS was heavily influenced by the experience of the IPKF in the jungles of Sri Lanka. The big, heavy, single-shot only FN-FAL came up short against the AK's of the LTTE. Its only advantage, range, was nullified in the actual battle conditions faced there.

INSAS was supposed to remedy that by providing a burst mode, lighter weight, shorter length, less heavy ammo while still being fairly accurate. (Of course my personal pet-peeve here is that the IA never fully utilized the advantages of lighter ammo by sticking with the 20 round magazines for some inexplicable reason)

Now it seems we have come full circle and we're going back to 7.62X51mm again with all it's disadvantages of too much recoil in auto-mode, heavy ammo (leading to less being carried) and less in each mag etc.

Meanwhile all the purported disadvantages of the 5.56mmNATO round do not seem to affect the SF guys who seem happy with their Tavors.

IA is going to end up operating significant numbers of rifles using each of the following calibers: 5.56x45mm NATO, 7.62x51mm NATO, 7.62x39mm and 7.62x54mm (For the Dragunovs). Add to this the new sniper rifles with 2 more types of ammo.

Truly a circus if there ever was one. All that is left is the Russian 5.45x39mm. We should buy some AK-74's so we don't leave that out. And maybe some QBZ-95s as well.

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Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby ks_sachin » 05 Feb 2019 04:15

I am surprised the AR10 came for Pak army trials.

Question for those interested -- SouravB ok don't answer.

What is common to the AR10 first designed in 1955 and the M4 carbine?

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Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby ks_sachin » 05 Feb 2019 04:17

SouravB why 6.8.

People will say we have equivalence with the type 95 :mrgreen:

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Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby ks_sachin » 05 Feb 2019 04:27

gaurav.p wrote:
ks_sachin wrote:I am sorry but I don't understand this post. What is equivalence and de-hyphenate when you want the best small arm for the men and women.
There is nothing technologically superior to an AK if reliability and ease of maintenance is required.


Saar, forgive this mango for poor writing skills. :mrgreen:

Equivalence = both enemies same weapons. Nothing differentiates.

hypenate = in foreign policy, India often finds itself linked to Pak just like Israel is linked to Palestine. With India buying ak103 it would be said 'India buys same weapon as pak'.

Yes AK is best bang for the buck. Going for the same weapon as the adversary sounds weird but as you said there is nothing better to get.

Gaurav imagine you are an infantryman or woman.
Your personal weapon is a fancy super duper tech marvel with fancy new age alloys. Expensive also.
It fires 5.56 NATO and is a short stroke.
It will still do the same as an AK maybe better worse depending on the rules of engagement.
Now the problem is if you damage the weapon during use and it is not deemed battle damage then you have to pay for repair yourself - IA won't.

So what weapon would you prefer knowing that repairing a AK is inexpensive.

ThakurB please correct me if I am wrong wrt repairs of personal weapons in IA.

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Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby ks_sachin » 05 Feb 2019 04:36

Nachiket you are correct.

Experience in SL and some brochureitis created the gsqr.
Inexperience and lack of user ing plus the unrealistic gsqr lead to some design issues.
Poor manufacture was the final nail in the coffin.

The INSAS 1C by all accounts a good weapon.

This is the best example of the arms lobby and an adverse narrative at work

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Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby souravB » 05 Feb 2019 06:40

ks_sachin wrote:SouravB why 6.8.

People will say we have equivalence with the type 95 :mrgreen:

Saar, 6.8 will lessen one of the main complaint of FAL, the recoil. Otherwise putting the rifle through mass reduction would increase the recoil and also the cartridge has a superior ballistic coefficient, lesser weight so more bullet and less cost per bullet.
Cheenis use 5.8 not 6.8 :P

nachiket wrote:--snip--

Saar, choice of bullet cartridge depends on the doctrine. For expeditionary forces, a lighter caliber which translates to more rounds and ease of carriage would be suitable whereas for defensive forces with good resupply and stock, a heavier caliber which translates to more destruction per bullet and enemy's limited supply would be preferable. We were the aggressor in IPKF so we felt the need of lighter bullets.
But since INSAS didn't worked, do we change our whole doctrine? These are the things higher ups in IA should think. There are also some ROE issues that cloud the cartridge selection.
Let's take for example, IA says 5.56 among all other problems has less stopping power. Since IA follows the adage 'Ek Goli Ek Dushman', enemy should be down with 1 bullet. But training a jawan double-tapping for neutralization when using 5.56 while he trains for CI/CT ops is perhaps IMO more optimum soln than providing the said jawan with an AK to spray bullet and hoping 1 hits the target. This also raises the quality of average jawan.

Singha wrote:i vote the zonal commanders spending limits be even more increased. we need to adopt the decentralized model of the american revolutionary war where each general/patron/leader equipped his own formations with whatever tech and means they had, down to uniforms and battle flags.

I second your vote. As long as there is interoperability between formations and minimal redundancy. I'd even go more granular at regiment level.

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Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby ks_sachin » 05 Feb 2019 07:51

Singh surely u jest.
Tell me how this would work.
2nd batallion of the Four a regt moves from 112 men brigade to 86 ing brigade.
As part of their move
- vehicles
- weapons
- comms equipment
Etc etc.
RCLs at that time stored at Center because 112 did not require that.. But I think move to 86 be meant these were picked up from Center.

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Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby rkhanna » 05 Feb 2019 08:06

ks_sachin wrote:I am surprised the AR10 came for Pak army trials.

Question for those interested -- SouravB ok don't answer.

What is common to the AR10 first designed in 1955 and the M4 carbine?


M4 is an AR15 .

As such the AR10 and AR15 work on the same design with t AR10 lower receiver being larger to accomodate the larger round.

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Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby ks_sachin » 05 Feb 2019 08:19

The AR10 was designed as a 7.62 right at the onset.
The M4 evolved from the AR-16 which was based on the AR10. The AR-15 was redesignated the M16 and replaced the M14.

The commonality I was looking for was Eugene Stoner..

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Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby Thakur_B » 05 Feb 2019 08:35

^^ Gun aficionados should also check out stoner 63. That is by far the most modular gun system ever made.

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Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby ks_sachin » 05 Feb 2019 08:44

Gently does it sir.

First let people get their head around difference between DI, Short Stroke and Long Stroke and then bolt mechanisms.
BTW have you had a look at the AK107

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Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby Prasad » 05 Feb 2019 09:02

Mihir wrote:
Prasad wrote:Anyone know what happened to the JVPC trials by CRPF ?

They were taking deliveries starting September 2017.
https://twitter.com/crpfindia/status/905796340046643200

Damn. Totally forgot about this. Thanks!

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Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby Singha » 05 Feb 2019 09:24

In murican trials the hk xm8 was least jams the colt m4 the most jam

Sig and scar were in between

Test was 40,000 rounds each

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Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby ParGha » 05 Feb 2019 16:56

Colonial laws required all men with voting powers to own and maintain their muskets for militia service. Most men in the East coast kept standard .75 caliber Brown Bess muskets because it was easier to get bulk resupply from the British Army in case of another French and Indian War.

The random caliber long rifles were mostly used by frontiersmen, who were useful for skirmishes and harassment but couldn’t stand up against regular Red Coats.

The Continental Army which eventually won was drilled and organized by veterans of the European wars like Barons von Steuben and de Kalb. And it was backed by the allied naval power of France and Spain, and co-belligerent support of the Dutch and Hyder Ali of Mysore. Sher Khan vs Bhageera + Baloo + the wolf pack. It was as much won by shrewd diplomacy, as by force major.

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Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby sudeepj » 05 Feb 2019 22:30

The next battleground for the Indian Army appears to be Kashmir, the 3 corps large armored thrust through the desert appears to be a non-starter because of the nuclear overhang.

What are the sight-lines and battlefield ranges like on the LOC? I suspect it will be more than the jungle fighting in Lanka. The 7.62x51 is also the better cartridge for fighting in built up areas as it will punch through brick walls, as long as the length of the rifle can be reduced. The Ar10 has the collapsible multi position butt, so that issue appears addressed, at least to an extent.

The next war for us, if it happens, will be a COIN type war, where we achieve a quick victory conventionally, followed by a long COIN/stabilization phase. The 5.56x45 was a good weapon for fighting fluid, moving wars against a peer enemy, but not against fanatical jihadi type fighting in built up areas. So I think, overall a good choice for the Kashmir theater. It provides the required overmatch of the jihadi.

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Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby Rakesh » 05 Feb 2019 23:38

https://twitter.com/indiandefence11/sta ... 7838142464 ---> 21 PARA SF Operative down on the range with a Micro UZI 9x19mm Parabellum Submachine Gun/Personal Defense Weapon with a Meprolight MOR Red Dot Sight. UZI, complemented by MP-9, are used by RCL, Sniper Pairs (as secondary weapon) and CQB Teams ever since the early UZI variant.

Image

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Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby SRay » 06 Feb 2019 00:38

https://www.armyrecognition.com/defexpo_2018_india_news_show_daily/insas_1c_assault_rifle_to_partially_replace_predecessor_in_indian_army.html

INSAS 1C assault rifle to partially replace predecessor in Indian army

In early 2017, it was announced that INSAS rifles were to be retired and replaced by rifles capable of firing 7,62x51mm NATO cartridges. In fact “only” a significant part of the army should receive new rifles in 7.62mm, while many units will receive an improved version of the INSAS for non-first line duties: the 1C, still in 5.56mm, a representative of the Rifle Factory Ishapore told Army Recognition at DefExpo India 2018.

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Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby ks_sachin » 06 Feb 2019 01:09

sudeepj wrote:The next battleground for the Indian Army appears to be Kashmir, the 3 corps large armored thrust through the desert appears to be a non-starter because of the nuclear overhang.

What are the sight-lines and battlefield ranges like on the LOC? I suspect it will be more than the jungle fighting in Lanka. The 7.62x51 is also the better cartridge for fighting in built up areas as it will punch through brick walls, as long as the length of the rifle can be reduced. The Ar10 has the collapsible multi position butt, so that issue appears addressed, at least to an extent.

The next war for us, if it happens, will be a COIN type war, where we achieve a quick victory conventionally, followed by a long COIN/stabilization phase. The 5.56x45 was a good weapon for fighting fluid, moving wars against a peer enemy, but not against fanatical jihadi type fighting in built up areas. So I think, overall a good choice for the Kashmir theater. It provides the required overmatch of the jihadi.


"COIN type was where we achieve a quick victory conventionally"?

AR10 into the mix - common mate...

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Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby nachiket » 06 Feb 2019 01:17


What are the sight-lines and battlefield ranges like on the LOC? I suspect it will be more than the jungle fighting in Lanka. The 7.62x51 is also the better cartridge for fighting in built up areas as it will punch through brick walls, as long as the length of the rifle can be reduced. The Ar10 has the collapsible multi position butt, so that issue appears addressed, at least to an extent.

The next war for us, if it happens, will be a COIN type war, where we achieve a quick victory conventionally, followed by a long COIN/stabilization phase. The 5.56x45 was a good weapon for fighting fluid, moving wars against a peer enemy, but not against fanatical jihadi type fighting in built up areas. So I think, overall a good choice for the Kashmir theater. It provides the required overmatch of the jihadi.

If that is the case what is the need for buying limited number of rifles in 7.62x51? Won't the new Ak-103 purchase take care of everything, for a lower price? After all our troops seem to prefer the AKM during COIN ops in Kashmir and I haven't heard any complaints about the stopping power of the 7.62x39mm ammo. It si also easier to use in full-auto and will have 30 round magazines. It would be better to save a lot of money by not buying the SIG 716 and Caracal, and instead spend it on getting all our men better optics and more UBGL's since the new 103's will have picatinny rails.

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Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby Kakkaji » 06 Feb 2019 02:06

SRay wrote:https://www.armyrecognition.com/defexpo_2018_india_news_show_daily/insas_1c_assault_rifle_to_partially_replace_predecessor_in_indian_army.html

INSAS 1C assault rifle to partially replace predecessor in Indian army

In early 2017, it was announced that INSAS rifles were to be retired and replaced by rifles capable of firing 7,62x51mm NATO cartridges. In fact “only” a significant part of the army should receive new rifles in 7.62mm, while many units will receive an improved version of the INSAS for non-first line duties: the 1C, still in 5.56mm, a representative of the Rifle Factory Ishapore told Army Recognition at DefExpo India 2018.


This news story is from April 2018.

Subsequently, I believe the decision has been changed, and the 'second-line' troops will now receive the AK-103 made by OFB in collaboration with Russia.

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Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby ks_sachin » 06 Feb 2019 02:08

Kakkaji wrote:
SRay wrote:https://www.armyrecognition.com/defexpo_2018_india_news_show_daily/insas_1c_assault_rifle_to_partially_replace_predecessor_in_indian_army.html

INSAS 1C assault rifle to partially replace predecessor in Indian army

In early 2017, it was announced that INSAS rifles were to be retired and replaced by rifles capable of firing 7,62x51mm NATO cartridges. In fact “only” a significant part of the army should receive new rifles in 7.62mm, while many units will receive an improved version of the INSAS for non-first line duties: the 1C, still in 5.56mm, a representative of the Rifle Factory Ishapore told Army Recognition at DefExpo India 2018.


This news story is from April 2018.

Subsequently, I believe the decision has been changed, and the 'second-line' troops will now receive the AK-103 made by OFB in collaboration with Russia.

A bad decision...

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Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby Kakkaji » 06 Feb 2019 02:12

nachiket wrote:If that is the case what is the need for buying limited number of rifles in 7.62x51? Won't the new Ak-103 purchase take care of everything, for a lower price? After all our troops seem to prefer the AKM during COIN ops in Kashmir and I haven't heard any complaints about the stopping power of the 7.62x39mm ammo. It si also easier to use in full-auto and will have 30 round magazines. It would be better to save a lot of money by not buying the SIG 716 and Caracal, and instead spend it on getting all our men better optics and more UBGL's since the new 103's will have picatinny rails.


I think the SIG is for the 'front-line' troops facing Pakistan and China, and not for the troops engaged in COIN ops who will get the AK-103.

There are too many news stories coming out, with moving goal posts. I am all confused. :-?

Maybe Thakur_B saheb can clarify for all of us, as to which weapon is being bought for which units?

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Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby sudeepj » 06 Feb 2019 02:22

ks_sachin wrote:"COIN type wars where we achieve a quick victory conventionally"?

AR10 into the mix - common mate...


This is the experience globally.. There havent been ANY peer adversary fights for almost 70 years now. The wars that have been fought - { Bangladesh, IPKF/Lanka, Maldives, Iraq, Syria, Libya, Chechnya, Israel-Westbank, Afghanistan ... } have all been a fast battle that defeats the conventional adversary, followed by a long period of COIN. In fact, if there is any chance that a war can stretch for a loong time or has an uncertain outcome, it will not be started by (most) national leaders. On the other hand, most people dont really know how to win COIN type wars.

For a COIN type war, 7.62x51 provides the required range (longer than either 5.56/7.62x39), killing capacity (much higher than 5.56 or 7.62x39). The Sig-716 is also pretty compact, only about 6'' longer than a folded AK and a full 10'' shorter than the FAL. Its being bought at a price comparable to the INSAS, about $1000 a piece. What is not to like?

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Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby ks_sachin » 06 Feb 2019 02:50

I was having a play on the words u used.

However stopping power is not all.

Also I am not sure Sig costs the same as INSAS.

Also you do realise that for the ranges we talk of in the valley or in COIN engagement an AK works just fine plus cheap as chips and easy to repair. At the ranges we are talking g about an AK is as good as a Sig.

Your arguments are sensible but are not borne out by what is actually happening.
So why are we getting the Caracal..

Small arms in Indian Army depresses me, so enough from me on this

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Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby Kakkaji » 06 Feb 2019 03:28

Another head-spinner for me in this saga, is the recent news story that the Russians are trying to upsell AK-203 in place of AK-103, at a higher price of course. That beats the purpose of getting a large number of rifles that are cheaper compared to the western imports. :-?

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Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby nachiket » 06 Feb 2019 03:35

Kakkaji wrote:Another head-spinner for me in this saga, is the recent news story that the Russians are trying to upsell AK-203 in place of AK-103, at a higher price of course. That beats the purpose of getting a large number of rifles that are cheaper compared to the western imports. :-?

AK-203 has very few differences from the 103. From the article posted earlier, I only counted picatinny rails and a new flash suppressor. What else is new?

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Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby ks_sachin » 06 Feb 2019 04:48

nachiket wrote:
Kakkaji wrote:Another head-spinner for me in this saga, is the recent news story that the Russians are trying to upsell AK-203 in place of AK-103, at a higher price of course. That beats the purpose of getting a large number of rifles that are cheaper compared to the western imports. :-?

AK-203 has very few differences from the 103. From the article posted earlier, I only counted picatinny rails and a new flash suppressor. What else is new?

Cost!!!

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Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby Rakesh » 06 Feb 2019 05:13

Kalashnikov Concern Renames the 100M-Series of AK Rifles to 200-Series
https://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/201 ... of-rifles/

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Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby ks_sachin » 06 Feb 2019 05:46

At 2x the cost

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Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby ks_sachin » 06 Feb 2019 06:13

From an article I was reading


“While the infantryman is ideally suited for combat in Afghanistan, his current weapons, doctrine, and marksmanship training do not provide a precise, lethal fire capability to 500 meters and are therefore inappropriate,” Ehrhart contended. “There are several ways to extend the lethality of the infantry… A better option to increase incapacitation is to adopt a larger caliber cartridge, which will function using components of the M16/M4.”

In Afghanistan more so than Iraq, insurgents employed Soviet-era 7.62x54mm SVD rifles, RPGs, recoilless rifles, and mortars and seemed to routinely out-range American squads armed primarily first with M16s and then the shorter M4 carbine. Though handier for close-quarters combat and when getting in and out of vehicles, the M4’s 14.5-inch barrel only reduced the terminal impact and effective range of the 5.56mm bullet"

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Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby souravB » 06 Feb 2019 06:24

Sachin sir, Kalashnikov have stopped making the vanila 103 in Russia altogether. From 2016 whatever they are making is 100M/200 series for their reserve and non-combat troops. I do not think Russia would bought those if the price difference is not negligible.
IMO If they are talking about increased price than 103, then it would be for a variant based on 103 but not necessarily 103M/203. AK308 is based on 103 with some features of AK12. Also makes sense since it's a new and heavier rifle it will be costlier.

ks_sachin wrote:From an article I was reading


“While the infantryman is ideally suited for combat in Afghanistan, his current weapons, doctrine, and marksmanship training do not provide a precise, lethal fire capability to 500 meters and are therefore inappropriate,” Ehrhart contended. “There are several ways to extend the lethality of the infantry… A better option to increase incapacitation is to adopt a larger caliber cartridge, which will function using components of the M16/M4.”

US Army is looking to field 6.8SPCII cartridge as standard issue. prototypes are in testing right now.

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Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby nachiket » 06 Feb 2019 06:37

souravB wrote:US Army is looking to field 6.8SPCII cartridge as standard issue. prototypes are in testing right now.

Great, we will see an RFP for that as well from IA in due time. Many of the recent attempts at procurement smack of Brochuritis. Worst was that competition for multi caliber weapon where none of the contenders passed the trials.

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Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby ks_sachin » 06 Feb 2019 07:17

SouravB indeed. Cost was a comment in jest.

That said I have been increasingly of the opinion that we standardise on 7.62.51.

Get super super rifle for your "front line" but convert the FN modern version like DSA for non regular troops.

AK 308 can be used by CI troops.

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Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby nachiket » 06 Feb 2019 07:32

How does the "small number of special rifles for frontline troops" actually work? Say 6 MLI is rotating into a "frontline" posting (however it is defined) replacing 2 Rajputana Rifles. Will the MLI soldiers exchange their standard issue INSAS with the Raj Rifles soldiers' SIG's? Then pass them on to 18 Grenadiers when they are relieved and so on?

And if the troops prefer the AK for COIN instead of SIG, will the troops posted on LoC be considered on frontline?

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Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby ks_sachin » 06 Feb 2019 10:23

6 MLi and 2 RajRif will have the same weapons holding (ToE) as will the 18 Grenadiers.
Even in the CI grid they will maintain their personal weapons as they are not core CI (which is RR)
When a 6 MLi "Ganpat" is posted to a Mli affeliated RR he goes there sans his personal weapon and assumes the weapon holding of the RR which is AK.

Frontline you have to understand does not mean troops on the front line but frontline troops. So a batallion posted in Bangalore as part of our Amphibious role tasked brigade will still have the same holding as 6Mli which is posted at the LoC in Dera Baba Nanak or Uri or...

What that means is that Support troops on the LoC (ASC / EME etc) will not have the same weapons holdings as the 6MLi.

Also Armoured Regts which have RR's affiliated batallions will shed the personal weapons that they have as part of their Armd Regt ToE and inherit AKs when they go into the valley.

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Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby Pratyush » 06 Feb 2019 10:57

Won't having different weapons with different operating and controls for specific units result in training issues with the men on the ground.

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Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby ks_sachin » 06 Feb 2019 11:43

Where is there a huge difference?

Regular Infantry - 6 MLi, 2 RajRif, 18 Grenadiers - INSAS at present - dogs breakfast in future
CI Infantry - RR (affeliated to infantry and other combat arms) - AK at present

Men and officers move between Regular roles and RR.

The regular role itself could be on LoC or in support of the CI Grid.

Induction into RR has an orientation process and I presume there is a deinduction process if going back. for personnel as well as Bns that are part of the CI grid.

After all Bns and personnel moving to the Glacier have a stint at HAWS...which is designed to equip them for a stint on the Saltoro Ridge or any other feature or other High Altitude areas.

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Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby souravB » 06 Feb 2019 17:25

^^We are not taking into account there might be another larger order of .308 rifles as MII. tentative RFI will probably be released in March/April. Current purchase is only the emergency component.
Number might depend on the AK308 deal.

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Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby ks_sachin » 06 Feb 2019 18:30

souravB wrote:^^We are not taking into account there might be another larger order of .308 rifles as MII. tentative RFI will probably be released in March/April. Current purchase is only the emergency component.
Number might depend on the AK308 deal.

where are the Caracals going sir?
i dont see space fro them unless and inf bn at a section level has a mix of 5.56 rifle, 7.62 as DMR and 7.62 lmg. the sniper rifles then will be held as bn hq resource?

also you are supposing an ak308 is coming and on that question if INSAS 1C has reached a level of maturity and those learnings are taken into OFB 7.62 NATO why do we need ak308?
or reverse engineer the damn ak and chamber for .308 for non frontline troops.

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Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby nachiket » 07 Feb 2019 04:03

ks_sachin wrote:.....

Frontline you have to understand does not mean troops on the front line but frontline troops. So a batallion posted in Bangalore as part of our Amphibious role tasked brigade will still have the same holding as 6Mli which is posted at the LoC in Dera Baba Nanak or Uri or...

...

Thanks for the explanation Sachin. Yes, I understood it as troops on frontline, hence the confusion.


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