Small Arms Thread

nachiket
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Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby nachiket » 07 Feb 2019 04:12

souravB wrote:^^We are not taking into account there might be another larger order of .308 rifles as MII. tentative RFI will probably be released in March/April. Current purchase is only the emergency component.
Number might depend on the AK308 deal.

What Ak-308 deal? Don't tell me we are buying the Ak308 on top of the SIG-716. I haven't seen any news item about this though.

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Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby souravB » 07 Feb 2019 04:50

ks_sachin wrote:where are the Caracals going sir?
i dont see space fro them unless and inf bn at a section level has a mix of 5.56 rifle, 7.62 as DMR and 7.62 lmg. the sniper rifles then will be held as bn hq resource?

How the mix of rifles will be at squad level is anybody's guess at this point. Having said that since IA has been exchanging with many NATO armies, I wouldn't be surprised if IA adopts some of their squad formation practices. 7.62 lmg rfi is already out. IA might also be raising dedicated sniper units since they bought actual sniper rifles and not use them as DMRs.

also you are supposing an ak308 is coming and on that question if INSAS 1C has reached a level of maturity and those learnings are taken into OFB 7.62 NATO why do we need ak308?
or reverse engineer the damn ak and chamber for .308 for non frontline troops.

I do not think INSAS 1C will have any future in IA, otherwise they wouldn't have been buying 4.5L carbines. AK308 is just AK chambered in .308. OFB with some handholding from Kalashnikov can produce that.
nachiket wrote:What Ak-308 deal? Don't tell me we are buying the Ak308 on top of the SIG-716. I haven't seen any news item about this though.

Autocorrect :( . It should've been AK deal.
The reason I said it will depend on the AK103 deal will be the price. I remember COAS in an interview said they were expecting the foreign rifles with EO sights to cost around $2000/piece. Which was the reason for them to divide the procurement to combat and non-combat troops. Since the Sig rifles are coming at attractive price, AKs have to better the price or the whole/big part of the contract might go to somebody else.
So in all probability IA and MoD is waiting on the AK deal, if the deal goes through and
  1. the deal is for AK203, then IA buys more .308 rifles.
  2. the deal is for AK308, then IA doesn't buy anymore .308
and if the deal falls apart, then IA buys large no. of .308 in MII program.

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Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby nachiket » 07 Feb 2019 05:08

AK deal is for progressively replacing the INSAS completely in IA service. Going for AK 308 makes no sense for that purpose. I haven't seen the Ak 308 mentioned anywhere in articles about the AK deal, only the Ak103/203.

If SIG is providing competitive prices for the SIG-716 maybe an alternative to the AK 103 would be the SIG 556xi Russian variant chambered in 7.62x39mm. It accepts regular AK mags if I'm not mistaken. Can be used to negotiate a better price for the AK's at least.

Image

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Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby ks_sachin » 07 Feb 2019 05:46

nachiket wrote:AK deal is for progressively replacing the INSAS completely in IA service. Going for AK 308 makes no sense for that purpose. I haven't seen the Ak 308 mentioned anywhere in articles about the AK deal, only the Ak103/203.

If SIG is providing competitive prices for the SIG-716 maybe an alternative to the AK 103 would be the SIG 556xi Russian variant chambered in 7.62x39mm. It accepts regular AK mags if I'm not mistaken. Can be used to negotiate a better price for the AK's at least.

Image

NAchiket actually it makes a lot of sense. Dont think of the rifle but think of the caliber.
If the INSAS is replaced by AK 7.62X39 it makes no sense. If you replace it with a 7.62 Nato it makes a lot of sense as there is commonality of caliber with the "frontline" troops.
Think of the logistics to a IBG - you have some troops with 7.62, some with 5.56 and support arms like EME / Engineers with 7.62X39.
7.62 NATO offers at this point in time the flexibility of employment in traditional battle scenarios as well as in CI Ops due to the updates to materials which have made weapons lighter.
Small arms have evolved and today a Carbine does not make sense. In the 60's when my Dad did LRP's in NEFA a 9mm sterling would have made sense but today despite his slight build he would be conmfortable with a AK or a Sig in 7.62. which means that even RRs can transition to 7.62 NATO.
So why the Caracal. What can it do that a 7.62 cannot do?

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Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby ks_sachin » 07 Feb 2019 11:38

Perhaps it would be good to revisit this TOE of an Inf Bn as we discuss small arms...

https://www.bharat-rakshak.com/ARMY/ima ... antry3.jpg

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Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby ashthor » 07 Feb 2019 12:35

Could Caracal be one the reason we are getting quite a few guys back home from UAE.

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Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby Thakur_B » 07 Feb 2019 16:35

nachiket wrote:
souravB wrote:^^We are not taking into account there might be another larger order of .308 rifles as MII. tentative RFI will probably be released in March/April. Current purchase is only the emergency component.
Number might depend on the AK308 deal.

What Ak-308 deal? Don't tell me we are buying the Ak308 on top of the SIG-716. I haven't seen any news item about this though.


Nachiket ji, AK308 is just speculation. It is an AK103 derivative and the army wanted 7.62 NATO for troops. MoD is also in discussion with Russia for Ak103 as per media reports. Hence putting 2+2 together it makes sense for AK308. AK103 could just be DDM reporting.

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Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby souravB » 08 Feb 2019 11:28

Modi to inaugurate Kalashnikov factory soon
According to this report, the deal may very soon get the CCS approval.

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Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby Bharadwaj » 08 Feb 2019 18:19

So in the name of make in India we are ruling out the possibility of a domestically designed riffle for a generation? :( I have supported most of what this present government has done but some decisions like this are silly.

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Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby sum » 08 Feb 2019 21:11

Bharadwaj wrote:So in the name of make in India we are ruling out the possibility of a domestically designed riffle for a generation? :( I have supported most of what this present government has done but some decisions like this are silly.

Saar, what can govt do if IA has decided it will in no way accept any of the OFB solutions?

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Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby Bharadwaj » 08 Feb 2019 23:06

sum wrote:
Bharadwaj wrote:So in the name of make in India we are ruling out the possibility of a domestically designed riffle for a generation? :( I have supported most of what this present government has done but some decisions like this are silly.

Saar, what can govt do if IA has decided it will in no way accept any of the OFB solutions?

Sir, MOD could have done what Parrikar did with the tejas- get the parties together and solve any shortcomings the IA has with the ofb 7.62. All reports indicate that the rifle was not that far from meeting IA specs. Instead we have this circus of Sig and Ak with Caracal thrown in for good measure. One understands the Govt's desperation to solve basic issues with the Army equipment but a little bit of patience and investment would have resulted in a weapon that is both effective and designed completely in house. The other option was to develop a 7.62 only variant of the mciws which by all accounts was a promising weapon.

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Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby Kakkaji » 08 Feb 2019 23:17

Pardon me if already posted before. This story gives some details of the Sig716 procurement:

Breaking News: India buys 72,000 SIG Sauer 716-G2

These rifles will mainly be used by troops deployed along the nearly 3 600 km long border along China.


The delivery of the new SIG Sauer 716-G2 rifles is expected to be within one year, which sounds challenging to say the least. If true, it means they have to produce about 1,400 rifles per week.

According to the current information the rifles are Made in the USA.

As mentioned, SIG Sauer’s winning bid of 990 USD closed the deal. According to Jane’s 360, who confirmed the deal late yesterday, Abu Dhabi’s Caracal International had priced its CAR817 rifle at 1200 USD per unit, while Israel Weapon Industries (IWI) set a price of 1600 USD for each of its ACE1 models. (Source)

This gives a great insight in the potential “bottom price” for these firearms.

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Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby Bharadwaj » 08 Feb 2019 23:25

^^^^
The SIG 716 while based on the AR has no history of large scale deployment with any army. We are going to be the guinea pigs- best case scenario the rifles accuracy at range provides an advantage to the Jawans on both borders. The ace was the proven choice but I guess you have to pay big bucks for it.

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Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby ks_sachin » 09 Feb 2019 00:54

sum wrote:
Bharadwaj wrote:So in the name of make in India we are ruling out the possibility of a domestically designed riffle for a generation? :( I have supported most of what this present government has done but some decisions like this are silly.

Saar, what can govt do if IA has decided it will in no way accept any of the OFB solutions?

tail wagging the dog?

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Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby nachiket » 09 Feb 2019 01:00

sum wrote:
Bharadwaj wrote:So in the name of make in India we are ruling out the possibility of a domestically designed riffle for a generation? :( I have supported most of what this present government has done but some decisions like this are silly.

Saar, what can govt do if IA has decided it will in no way accept any of the OFB solutions?

So who's going to operate the AK factory if not the OFB? If they made a mess of the QC with the INSAS they can make a royal mess of it with the new AK's too. I never underestimate the capacity of OFB to mess up anything.

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Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby Kakkaji » 09 Feb 2019 06:08

nachiket wrote:
sum wrote:Saar, what can govt do if IA has decided it will in no way accept any of the OFB solutions?

So who's going to operate the AK factory if not the OFB? If they made a mess of the QC with the INSAS they can make a royal mess of it with the new AK's too. I never underestimate the capacity of OFB to mess up anything.


As I understand it, the AK will be made in a new factory which will be a joint venture between the OFB and Kalashnikov. Apparently the Russians did not agree to make it in any of OFB's existing facilities.

I think the GOI thinking on this is that the Russians will be responsible for quality control at this new joint venture factory. Hopefully the OFB employees will fall in line when Gora Sahibs are around. :roll:

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Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby souravB » 10 Feb 2019 09:16

Chinese Type 81 rifle. Aptly titled not quite an AK.

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Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby souravB » 11 Feb 2019 02:15

For the viewing pleasure of the connoisseurs, AEK-971

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Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby ks_sachin » 11 Feb 2019 03:32

Sourav saar I have gone into depression with our small arms strategy..
All these videos are also India's failure WRT small arms.
The only other thing that caused such depression was the new marching style of the SF.

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Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby ashishvikas » 12 Feb 2019 17:51

Deal has been signed.

MoD inks deal for fast track procurement of 72,000 SiG Sauer rifles today. All rifles to be made in @sigsauerinc plant in New Hampshire. This is @adgpi 's first US-made rifle for frontline troops. My recent report on the purchase.

https://t.co/VqvvE277ef

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Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby abhik » 12 Feb 2019 18:03

Is the deal for Caracals also "signed"?

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Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby Bharadwaj » 12 Feb 2019 18:17

ashishvikas wrote:Deal has been signed.

MoD inks deal for fast track procurement of 72,000 SiG Sauer rifles today. All rifles to be made in @sigsauerinc plant in New Hampshire. This is @adgpi 's first US-made rifle for frontline troops. My recent report on the purchase.

https://t.co/VqvvE277ef


...And we become the world's only large scale military customer of this 716 contraption. I hope for the best but fear the worst. At least we can stop hearing breathless ddm reports of "glitch prone" insas now. :roll:

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Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby Bharadwaj » 12 Feb 2019 20:23

http://pbs.twimg.com/media/DzJIdLqUUAA_LJ5.jpg:large

Sandeep Unnithan reporting on a new insas based carbine. The external appearance speaks of quality. Hope at least this sees service beyond the small paramilitary purchases.

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Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby Anshuman.Kumar » 12 Feb 2019 21:32

What happened joint venture carbine.Where does it fail the GSQR.

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Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby ramana » 13 Feb 2019 02:59

Bharadwaj wrote:So in the name of make in India we are ruling out the possibility of a domestically designed riffle for a generation? :( I have supported most of what this present government has done but some decisions like this are silly.


I think govt wants to end this "If only we had xxxx import we could have done better" syndrome.
with this sage one chapter of assault rifles comes to an end.

How many battalions will those 72000 rifles equip?
And are there plans to buy more?
The Ak version will equip the RR battalions.
The 5.56 will equip the CAPF forces.

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Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby ramana » 13 Feb 2019 03:03

abhik wrote:Is the deal for Caracals also "signed"?

Looks like you didn't read the above post.
Its priced 20% higher and hence not signed.

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Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby Thakur_B » 13 Feb 2019 06:04

Bharadwaj wrote:http://pbs.twimg.com/media/DzJIdLqUUAA_LJ5.jpg:large

Sandeep Unnithan reporting on a new insas based carbine. The external appearance speaks of quality. Hope at least this sees service beyond the small paramilitary purchases.


That is Amogh layout right there, but with full power cartridge.

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Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby ks_sachin » 13 Feb 2019 06:51

Why do we need a carbine?

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Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby JayS » 13 Feb 2019 07:42

Kakkaji wrote:
nachiket wrote:So who's going to operate the AK factory if not the OFB? If they made a mess of the QC with the INSAS they can make a royal mess of it with the new AK's too. I never underestimate the capacity of OFB to mess up anything.


As I understand it, the AK will be made in a new factory which will be a joint venture between the OFB and Kalashnikov. Apparently the Russians did not agree to make it in any of OFB's existing facilities.

I think the GOI thinking on this is that the Russians will be responsible for quality control at this new joint venture factory. Hopefully the OFB employees will fall in line when Gora Sahibs are around. :roll:


If a new factpry is planned would have been prudent to make it a Pvt Ltd JV company, subsidiary of one of the OFB. That way GOI could keep it outside the usual Govt employment scheme and worker union crap, compulsion to higher with reservation quotas and restrictions on payment so top quality talent could be hired.

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Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby Bharadwaj » 13 Feb 2019 13:20

ramana wrote:
Bharadwaj wrote:So in the name of make in India we are ruling out the possibility of a domestically designed riffle for a generation? :( I have supported most of what this present government has done but some decisions like this are silly.


I think govt wants to end this "If only we had xxxx import we could have done better" syndrome.
with this sage one chapter of assault rifles comes to an end.

How many battalions will those 72000 rifles equip?
And are there plans to buy more?
The Ak version will equip the RR battalions.
The 5.56 will equip the CAPF forces.


The media report on the AK deal suggests it will go much further... i.e barring the 5.56 carbine and sig, the ak will equip entire IA and paramilitary forces. This effectively rules out the ofb 7.62 or any similar development for the foreseeable future.

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Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby ashishvikas » 13 Feb 2019 16:30

Army launches hunt for 56,000 night sights for assault rifles

The army wants 40,000 image intensifier-based night sights and 16,000 thermal imaging based night sights, officials said.

The RFI for image intensifiers states that its sight should allow soldiers to aim up to 500 metres and to detect a human target at minimum 600 metres. Another key army requirement is that the sights should have a service life of 10,000 hours of operation or 10 years, whichever is earlier.


The second RFI states that the thermal imaging-based sights should facilitate accurate engagement of targets at a range of 500 metres. The sights should also be able to detect a moving human target at 800 metres and recognize it at 500 metres. These sights should have a minimum service life of 10,000 hours of operation or 12 years, whichever is earlier.


Original equipment manufacturers have been asked to respond to both RFIs by March 15, 2019. The requests for proposals for the night sights will be issued in August 2019 to take the proposed procurement forward.

According to the RFIs, the image intensifier-based night sights have to be delivered between six to 48 months of the signing of contract and the thermal imaging-based night sights will have to be supplied between six to 24 months.


https://www.hindustantimes.com/india-ne ... 8nNuI.html

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Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby ArjunPandit » 13 Feb 2019 17:12

i see a surge of purchases are we going to war anytime soon or is it just the pent up work of decades

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Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby darshhan » 13 Feb 2019 18:17

ArjunPandit wrote:i see a surge of purchases are we going to war anytime soon or is it just the pent up work of decades


Maybe both. Keeping fingers crossed

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Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby Kakarat » 13 Feb 2019 19:44

https://twitter.com/livefist/status/1095682908470206465
BREAKING: Day after signing deal for 72,400 @SigSauerInc assault rifles, India clears JV with Russia to make 700,000+ AK-103 assault rifles in India. Inter Govt Agreement shortly for 49.5-50.5 Kalashnikov-OFB JV. Our piece last year with details:


Mega Made-In-India Kalashnikov Assault Rifle Deal Before Year End

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Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby Zynda » 13 Feb 2019 20:09

I guess these are the AK-203 rifles (even though the title says 103). Here is an article about AK-203.

https://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/201 ... of-rifles/

I will just post an excerpt which may be of concern
The 200-series of AK rifles are primarily designed for exporting and sales to domestic Russian law enforcement agencies. Although they look similar, these rifles should not be confused with the AK-12 and AK-15 that were recently adopted by the Russian military. The AK-12 and AK-15 are arguably more advanced firearms with several more significant design changes such as the permanently fixed gas tube with the gas block disassembled from the front.

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Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby ramana » 14 Feb 2019 03:57

AK-203 has what cartridge please?

Got it. 7.62x39 same as AK-47.
If bulk of IA will have this, what does it mean wrt IA infantry tactics?
The SIG rifles in NATO rounds are for frontline troops in counter terror ops per Livefist.

While the AK-103s will go to regular infantry units, 72,000 of a higher performance rifle type will be deployed with frontline troops in counter-terror roles.

.


I thought frontline troops meant troops in IBG type formations.

If only 72k SIG are being bought means the situation is under control in J &K.
AK 103 means heavier round than INSAS. And lighter than NATO and less range.

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Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby Vips » 14 Feb 2019 05:04

Kalashnikov rifles to be made in india by OFB.

Close on the heels of signing a deal of 72,400 assault rifles for the Indian Army’s infantry from the US based M/s Sig Sauer, the government on late Wednesday evening cleared joint venture with Russia for producing more than 7,50,000 units of AK-103 assault rifles, the third generation of AK-47.

An intergovernmental agreement for a joint venture between Russia’s Kalashnikov Concern and Ordnance Factory Board is expected to be inked later this week. Details including costs, timeline and other issues will be specified.

The joint venture is in response Ministry of Defence (MoD)’s Request for Information (RFI) for procurement of 650 000 assault rifles of 7.62×39 mm caliber under ‘Make in India’ program. The Russian share in the JV as per the provisions of the Indian law is going to be 49.5% with the OFB share being the majority 50.5% of the registered capital.

Sources also confirmed that as part of the deal around 50,000 assault rifles will be handed over to India once the joint venture is inked. There is an urgent requirement for rifles of two different types – a very accurate rifle with a high rate of fire and secondly a lighter assault rifle meant for infantry troops.

Russia has been pushing for signing this deal since last October when Indo-Russia summit had taken place in New Delhi. Followed by India-Russian intergovernmental commission meeting on military technical cooperation in December where it was decided that the Kalashnikovs will be made in India under Make in India initiative of the government. As had been reported earlier, defence minister Nirmala Sitharaman and her Russian counterpart, Sergei Shoigu co-chaired the meeting.

The government is keen to close the deal as it needs to on priority bases modernise the weapons the infantry needs as it is guarding long stretches of borders close to Pakistan and China.

These rifles are expected to be made in India for the Indian Army as well as police forces, and it could also be exported to friendly countries. The government is keen on 100 per cent local content for manufacturing of the rifles. Under the Joint Venture the two sides are expected to jointly produce and develop (Modernisation) of AK-103 rifles.

After fulfilling the assault rifles order for the Indian army, under the JV between Russia and OFB, it is likely that modernisation of the Indian Armed Forces stock of 5.56mm caliber rifles to 7.62mm calibre could be taken up.

Both countries have also inked in last December the establishment of a Russian-Indian intergovernmental commission on military and military technical cooperation to complete the restructuring of the intergovernmental commission to make it possible to establish closer cooperation in the defense sector.

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Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby souravB » 14 Feb 2019 05:06

Ramana sir, 7.62x39 caliber. cartridge is approx double the weight of INSAS rounds, i.e. almost 8 grams.

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Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby ks_sachin » 14 Feb 2019 06:02

I feel like crying.....

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Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby darshhan » 14 Feb 2019 15:15

ks_sachin wrote:I feel like crying.....


Are these tears of joy?


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