Small Arms Thread

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Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby Gagan » 22 Aug 2009 07:19

The trigger guard is actually to protect not just the index finger, but the whole wrist. This is supposed to be a machine-pistol like weapon, able to be fired with one hand like a conventional pistol.
Image

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Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby koti » 22 Aug 2009 09:17

Rahul M wrote:this version of MSMC looks a lot different from its original avatar. much more refined.

RM, are full auto carbines really needed by police forces in India ? in 95% cases the SLR or INSAS will suffice IMHO. carbines can go to the select HR/QRTs.


SLR or INSAS are not required for most of the police units except Anti-naxal and crack teams.
These regular Assault Rifles are heavy and too powerful to be used in qt/urban environments.

Iv'e seen so many installations being guarded by CISF using SLR's. It worried me how easy it would be to shoot 2 to 3 of these guards with a hand gun. they can't even react fast with these even if they notice the observer in advance.

9mm Sterling's have become very obsolete. VIP protection would be better if bodyguards are equipped with MSMC as it offers better soft-amour penetration too. This is becoming increasingly relevant. IIRIC the assassins of AP MLA Ravi used some kind of Bodyarmour.

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Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby morem » 23 Aug 2009 14:00

Hi gurus,

the carbine piuctured in the news item , isnt it the MINSAS as opposed to the MSMC

http://www.domain-b.com/defence/land/in ... _army.html


Morem

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Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby Shameek » 23 Aug 2009 19:36

^^ Its what we call DDMitis here. Please post in the 'Tracking Errors in Defence Reporting' thread.

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Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby Rahul M » 23 Aug 2009 19:52

koti, major part of armed police still carry the .303 and not any other small arms , I know opinions will differ but I think a fully auto difficult to aim weapon is not the right choice for the bulk of our police forces who are poorly trained.

the specialised units can have their own weapon of choice but I'm talking of the regular forces.

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Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby Sandipan » 27 Aug 2009 05:05

So, Rahul it seems you want to keep bulk of the Police force armed with this 19th century rifle, which does not fire most of times. So why not go back one step back and arm all police with Lathis only then there can be no risk of collateral damage.

Instead of training them properly and arming them with latest we can afford. If we keep them armed with .303 due to fear that they are not trained enough, this will definitely be a retrograde step

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Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby ParGha » 27 Aug 2009 07:30

Sandipan wrote:So, Rahul it seems you want to keep bulk of the Police force armed with this 19th century rifle, which does not fire most of times. So why not go back one step back and arm all police with Lathis only then there can be no risk of collateral damage. Instead of training them properly and arming them with latest we can afford. If we keep them armed with .303 due to fear that they are not trained enough, this will definitely be a retrograde step


Escalating at the street-level would be nothing short of self-designed catastrophe for the governmental authorities; a successful escalation can happen only at the strategic level. In other words, it would unleash a lot of violence and killings on Indian cities, towns and villages if you arm up the regular police, the criminals will play catchup (not very hard as India is sitting right next to the largest small-arms manufacturer and largest illegal arms bazaar in the world respectively), you again arm & armor up your cops... and it goes on forever. We see this happening all the time in Latin America. The correct way of dealing with this problem is to (a) allow the regular cops to continue with their duties in the least disruptive manner possible, (b) utilize specialized units for strategic escalation against criminals and terrorists. Cut off their sources of funding and armaments, and curtail their movements and lines of communications. Then the problem will automatically become something that regular men with just lathis can handle.

Getting back to the main topic of this thread, I would probably mothball all the .303s and Webleys, and sell them off to museums and collectors in US/Australia/Europe/India. Use the money acquired to restart production of Ishapore 2As (basically Enfields in 7.62x51mm NATO, and upgrade it with an accessory rail) and a decent .38Special revolver. It should be the standard issue for all armed police personnel in India. Right now its a logistical nightmare - which is also one of the reasons why the training cycles are virtually non-existent.

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Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby Shameek » 27 Aug 2009 07:33

Sandipan wrote:So, Rahul it seems you want to keep bulk of the Police force armed with this 19th century rifle, which does not fire most of times. So why not go back one step back and arm all police with Lathis only then there can be no risk of collateral damage.


Actually no. He mentioned arming them with the SLR or INSAS. The point was the carbine on full auto being hard to aim and having the possibility of causing collateral damage in the hands of an inexperienced operator.

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Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby Raj Malhotra » 27 Aug 2009 10:31

We have 1.5 million strong military services. If around 200 rounds per annum are fired by One million soldiers we require around 20 crore rounds. We have around Half million armed paramilitary and half million armed police. Around 100 rounds fired by Para military and 50 rounds fired by armed police per annum would mean 7.5 crore rounds. Add reserves and pvt security guards, we should have production capacity of around 30 crore rounds per annum. We need to re-equip our Paramilitary and police forces with INSAS & MSMC which require around One lakh weapons per annum for ten years being cost of 200 crores. So for cost of around Rs. 500 crores per annum i.e. half the cost of a SINGLE MMRCA we can re-equip and retrain ALL our forces. Most of the budget is already allocated but as usual not being used. As doing the hard work of allocation and training does not get any bribes.

Look at Bombay Police, inspite of Super High Threat they withdrew AK from police, now mopping around for M16s and Barrets when the simple INSAS and some training will do the job at 1/4th the cost.

NOTE:- Firing a .303 round is extremely dangerous for civilians at it can go through 3-4 people at one time. Also it is more difficult and costly to arm and train with .303or SLR 7.62 or even a pistol. It easier and cheaper to train with INSAS or MSMC. Note the auto features of INSAS & SMG are not really used except in Bollywood and they are used in single shot mode in real life situations (Remember Mumbai TV shots??). In this mode they are safer to use and easier to fire than .303 or SLR 7.62 or even a pistol.

On another note-I wonder whether the babus/brass Sc*ew their wives themselves or get foreign hunks to do it. I think that if they get foreign hunks to have s*x with their wives and daughters the genetic material may be better. So should we not import the foreign giggolos?????????? for them???????
Last edited by Raj Malhotra on 27 Aug 2009 10:55, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby John Snow » 27 Aug 2009 10:47

Raj Malhotra saab, this what I have been crying :(( all along. We still dont make simple items like small arms and the ammo for them.
Couple of years ago we imported for Bulgari of all places Ak-47/56 and ammo IIRC.
The whole DRDO OFP as Vina garu says need a kick in the rear side with those rifles.

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Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby Raj Malhotra » 27 Aug 2009 10:58

John Snow wrote:Raj Malhotra saab, this what I have been crying :(( all along. We still dont make simple items like small arms and the ammo for them.
Couple of years ago we imported for Bulgari of all places Ak-47/56 and ammo IIRC.
The whole DRDO OFP as Vina garu says need a kick in the rear side with those rifles.


Agree:-



New Pistols - imported Glocks & P226

New Carbines - Imported MP5 & Uzi

New Assault Rifle - Imported - tender issued

New LMG - Imported - tender issued

New Mortars 120mm - Imported Isreali

New 155 guns - Imported - Tenders always being isssued

Sniper Rifles - Imported

ANnti Materil Rifles - Imported

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Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby ArmenT » 27 Aug 2009 11:12

shameekg wrote:
Sandipan wrote:So, Rahul it seems you want to keep bulk of the Police force armed with this 19th century rifle, which does not fire most of times. So why not go back one step back and arm all police with Lathis only then there can be no risk of collateral damage.


Actually no. He mentioned arming them with the SLR or INSAS. The point was the carbine on full auto being hard to aim and having the possibility of causing collateral damage in the hands of an inexperienced operator.

This is extremely bad strategy, especially in urban areas. SLR or INSAS is an assault rifle and they are way too powerful. Shoot a jihadi paki with one of these and you will have the bullet travel through the paki, through the wall, into the neighbouring building and hit a civilian as well. This is why US cops use pistols and shotguns and the occasional submachine guns, so there is a lesser chance of this happening. Submachine guns use pistol ammo, unlike assault rifles which use larger and more powerful rounds, so they are less likely to cause collateral damage, so something like the Minsas, Uzi or an MP5 is better suited than INSAS or SLR. LAPD only got heavier weaponry after the infamous North Hollywood shootout, when the criminals were wearing body armor and carrying assault rifles that easily outgunned the cops shotguns and pistols. Cops had to raid a gun store to get bigger weapons to penetrate the body armor and even after that incident, LAPD issued bigger weapons to select cops only, though now a lot more carry them in the trunk of their police cars. Same with sniper rifles -- they are issued to only very well trained personnel and not to Joe Policeman.

Coworkers of mine who are in the know, say that, best weapon for home defence is a shotgun, mainly because the rounds won't penetrate through the wall and hit an innocent neighbour.
Last edited by ArmenT on 27 Aug 2009 11:37, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby Gagan » 27 Aug 2009 11:25

Isn't the venerable MP5 now passe? It having been replaced by the MP7?

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Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby ArmenT » 27 Aug 2009 11:35

^^^^
MP5 is still in production in Heckler and Koch factories + they've licensed production out to a few countries as well (including the Pakis). That means there's still demand for these.

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Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby Gagan » 27 Aug 2009 11:37

Sure, there is a demand for the MP5, but apparantly it can't penetrate the new gen vests that are commercially available now. There is a move to the much better designed and more powerful MP7 in developed nations.

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Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby RayC » 27 Aug 2009 11:43

As I see it, there is no need to arm all policemen.

They must be armed with the appropriate weapon for the task they are doing.

A traffic policeman need not be armed, but his Sergeant could be armed just for emergencies. Since he would be operating in crowded areas and the miscreant not too far, he could do with the pistol.

For serious emergencies, there are the RAF and Armed Police. They should be equipped with rifles.

I must admit that the nomenclatures like Assault Rifles and Rifle is the usual American hyperbole and merchandising gimmick. Assault Rifles are said to be those which can fire semi automatic and automatic and the Rifle, by inference, fires just one round at a time! Whatever. But both kill!

INSAS is a pretty good rifle and I find no reason why the Armed police cannot be equipped with the same.

For mob control without lethality, there is nothing better than the Mounted Police. I have seen them break up ugly crowds after a football match in Calcutta by just riding into the crowd!!

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Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby Rahul M » 27 Aug 2009 11:53

armen, I can understand your objection about the SLR but isn't the very rationale of moving to 5.56 i.e INSAS in our case that it will injure and not kill, IOW the bullet will not penetrate through a target's body ??

the only SMC our police forces use is the sterling 9mm. it is almost never used for actual firing.
many pandus who carry it do so for show, without the magazine. (yes, that's true)

anyone with an idea of the appalling shooting standards of police will be having heebie jeebies at them using capable SMCs. will you trust a person with a MP5 if he goes through 1 practice shoot every 1.5 years or so ?

btw, now that you mention shotguns, I always thought they were the perfect replacement for the .303.

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Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby RayC » 27 Aug 2009 13:03

To know how to use a firearm you have to be on the range.

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Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby ParGha » 27 Aug 2009 16:53

RayC wrote:As I see it, there is no need to arm all policemen. They must be armed with the appropriate weapon for the task they are doing.


I concur. And as to the objection against 7.62mm NATO as an appropriate round for the armed police, it ignores a key principle of policing - deterrence. About 9/10 times the policeman is facing an angry citizen or a opportunistic hooligan, only 10% of the time does he come face-to-face with a hard-core criminal or Paki terrorist. In those 9/10 times, he is much better served with the highly visible longrifle - both the citizen/rioter and the policeman know that it won't escalate to lethal violence, but that the heavy rifle can easily break some teeth or bones and knock some sense in, if need be. And in the 1/10 times, his real task is to establish a cordon and wait for the specialized response - for that too he is better served by a longrifle.

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Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby nikhil_p » 29 Aug 2009 01:45

ParGha wrote:
RayC wrote:As I see it, there is no need to arm all policemen. They must be armed with the appropriate weapon for the task they are doing.


I concur. And as to the objection against 7.62mm NATO as an appropriate round for the armed police, it ignores a key principle of policing - deterrence. About 9/10 times the policeman is facing an angry citizen or a opportunistic hooligan, only 10% of the time does he come face-to-face with a hard-core criminal or Paki terrorist. In those 9/10 times, he is much better served with the highly visible longrifle - both the citizen/rioter and the policeman know that it won't escalate to lethal violence, but that the heavy rifle can easily break some teeth or bones and knock some sense in, if need be. And in the 1/10 times, his real task is to establish a cordon and wait for the specialized response - for that too he is better served by a longrifle.

A 5.56 INSAS could do the job just as well.
Why dont we consider Shotguns. They are generally considered to be area weapons which makes it easier to aim. The cartridge can be easily adapted to fire slugs, shot pellets, rubber pellets, etc.

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Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby Raj Malhotra » 29 Aug 2009 11:31

RayC wrote:To know how to use a firearm you have to be on the range.


Cannot agree More. The damage in Mumbai would have been much less if the Mumbai police force was "adequately trained" even with "inadequate weapons".

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Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby RayC » 29 Aug 2009 11:33

nikhil_p wrote:A 5.56 INSAS could do the job just as well.
Why dont we consider Shotguns. They are generally considered to be area weapons which makes it easier to aim. The cartridge can be easily adapted to fire slugs, shot pellets, rubber pellets, etc.


Collateral damage to bystanders?

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Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby nikhil_p » 03 Sep 2009 02:35

RayC wrote:
nikhil_p wrote:A 5.56 INSAS could do the job just as well.
Why dont we consider Shotguns. They are generally considered to be area weapons which makes it easier to aim. The cartridge can be easily adapted to fire slugs, shot pellets, rubber pellets, etc.


Collateral damage to bystanders?

The Bystander in case of a terror attack might already be dead...riot piloce could use shotguns with rubber pellets instead of bullets...Shotguns also have the added advantage of being lower maintenance given their higher tolerances.
*Severly limited in range though*

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Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby ParGha » 03 Sep 2009 05:17

nikhil_p wrote:A 5.56 INSAS could do the job just as well. Why dont we consider Shotguns. They are generally considered to be area weapons which makes it easier to aim. The cartridge can be easily adapted to fire slugs, shot pellets, rubber pellets, etc.

An INSAS represents an escalation, the objection to which I have already put up. Pump-action shotguns can be an acceptable alternative to a modernized 2A1s in the cities, and a complement with one or two members of a police-station (with rest of them with 2A1s) in the countryside. However they should NOT be usually used as area weapons.

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Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby rkhanna » 03 Sep 2009 14:28

Sure, there is a demand for the MP5, but apparantly it can't penetrate the new gen vests that are commercially available now. There is a move to the much better designed and more powerful MP7 in developed nations.


The MP-5 has a high degree of relevence in Urban CT/HRT ops. Because for the most part engagements happen with 20-40 Meters inside built-up areas. Usually (NSG Specific) the Target area has a large number of Civilians/Innocents and hence NSG operators are trained for HeadShots PRIMARILY. very rarely will they take center mass shots (thus negating any body armour the terrorist are wearing and also so that they dont shoot innocents by mistake.)

Secondly a Heavier calibre can easily penetrate through humans/ and or walls and possibly kill friendlies/innocents as well.

Dont discount the MP-5. It still does the Job beautifully well.

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Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby VijayKumarSinha » 03 Sep 2009 14:51

rkhanna wrote:
Sure, there is a demand for the MP5, but apparantly it can't penetrate the new gen vests that are commercially available now. There is a move to the much better designed and more powerful MP7 in developed nations.


The MP-5 has a high degree of relevence in Urban CT/HRT ops. Because for the most part engagements happen with 20-40 Meters inside built-up areas. Usually (NSG Specific) the Target area has a large number of Civilians/Innocents and hence NSG operators are trained for HeadShots PRIMARILY. very rarely will they take center mass shots (thus negating any body armour the terrorist are wearing and also so that they dont shoot innocents by mistake.)

Secondly a Heavier calibre can easily penetrate through humans/ and or walls and possibly kill friendlies/innocents as well.

Dont discount the MP-5. It still does the Job beautifully well.



What happens if the enemy is wearing helmets? That will provide a very small cross section on the face area to take the head-shot.If he is wearing a face shield it would become even more difficult to take him down.


Also, in hostage situations, hostages are in front of the captors not behind them. mp7a1 uses a specially designed 4.6 mm rounds which are smaller than the 5.56 mm rounds but big enough to penetrate flak jackets and helmets.

mp7 is the future, if we don't equip our soldiers with that soon, we will suffer.

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Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby ParGha » 03 Sep 2009 16:41

VijayKumarSinha wrote:Sure, there is a demand for the MP5, but apparantly it can't penetrate the new gen vests that are commercially available now. There is a move to the much better designed and more powerful MP7 in developed nations.

No, there isn't - P90 has much higher adoption rate than MP7. Also both were primarily developed for rear echelon troops, but now they have both been almost completely rejected for cheaper and more interoperable calibers (mostly 5.56 NATO).

VijayKumarSinha wrote:What happens if the enemy is wearing helmets? That will provide a very small cross section on the face area to take the head-shot.If he is wearing a face shield it would become even more difficult to take him down.

It will still hurt a lot and daze you long enough to take you out of the fight for next few mins. In those mins, yes, your buddies can rescue you... or the man can come up to you, kick your helmet off, and put you out of your misery - or take you to a room where they redefine the boundaries of miseries.

VijayKumarSinha wrote:Also, in hostage situations, hostages are in front of the captors not behind them. mp7a1 uses a specially designed 4.6 mm rounds which are smaller than the 5.56 mm rounds but big enough to penetrate flak jackets and helmets. mp7 is the future, if we don't equip our soldiers with that soon, we will suffer.

No, you won't suffer just because of that. What are you? A H&K salesman?

rkhanna wrote:NSG operators are trained for HeadShots PRIMARILY

No, they are not.

rkhanna wrote:Secondly a Heavier calibre can easily penetrate through humans/ and or walls and possibly kill friendlies/innocents as well.

No, it doesn't.

rkhanna wrote:Dont discount the MP-5. It still does the Job beautifully well.

From the original manufacturer it is still a very expensive, over-hyped piece that requires a lot of maintenance. OK for 2-3 members for a specialist team, but ridiculous in hands of entire battalions.

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Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby VijayKumarSinha » 03 Sep 2009 23:16

Right, No, there isn't as in no 13 countries are not already using it? Or, as in atleast 10 of those countries are not using it in special forces operations? Or that it is also not being used by the U.N. ?

And Yes, I am a H&K salesman. My real name is Bruno! :rotfl: But more importantly I think you did not know enough about mp7a1 when you came here. :roll:

Getting this weapon or any other equally capable PWD in small numbers to atleast temporarirly close the growing gap between our capabilities and enemies abilities is what I am advocating. Or else, we can hang around for another 10 years with a pistol calibre mp5 and wait for the good folks from across our western border to come with full body gear and high on a variety of drugs and then we will wait some more until we see the white of their eye and then open fire with our muskets


PraGha wrote:It will still hurt a lot and daze you long enough to take you out of the fight for next few mins. In those mins, yes, your buddies can rescue you... or the man can come up to you, kick your helmet off, and put you out of your misery - or take you to a room where they redefine the boundaries of miseries.


Are you a Borne Supremacy novel salesman? :wink:
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Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby nikhil_p » 04 Sep 2009 00:15

VijayKumarSinha wrote:Right, No, there isn't as in no 13 countries are not already using it? Or, as in atleast 10 of those countries are not using it in special forces operations? Or that it is also not being used by the U.N. ?

And Yes, I am a H&K salesman. My real name is Bruno! But more importantly I think you did not know enough about mp7a1 when you came here.

Getting this weapon or any other equally capable PWD in small numbers to atleast temporarirly close the growing gap between our capabilities and enemies abilities is what I am advocating. Or else, we can hang around for another 10 years with a pistol calibre mp5 and wait until good folks from across our western border come with full body gear and high on a variety of drugs and then we will wait until we see the white of their eye and then open fire with our muskets


PraGha wrote:It will still hurt a lot and daze you long enough to take you out of the fight for next few mins. In those mins, yes, your buddies can rescue you... or the man can come up to you, kick your helmet off, and put you out of your misery - or take you to a room where they redefine the boundaries of miseries.


Are you a Borne Supremacy novel salesman? :wink:


Other than the H&K's...there are a lot of other weapons which are even better than them in CQB conditions...Eg: Herstal P90 which are a lot better than the H&K.
More importantly Special forces, or for that case any armed force, will not like to depend upon calibres which are 'special'. The 9mm bullet that the Mp5 fires is similar to what the regular sten fires as well.
The reasons for relying on an interchangable caliber are obvious.

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Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby Sandipan » 04 Sep 2009 00:47

How about Kriss Super V. In the program Ultimate weapons - It has been adjudged the best CQB weapon.

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Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby VijayKumarSinha » 04 Sep 2009 01:25

Sandipan wrote:How about Kriss Super V. In the program Ultimate weapons - It has been adjudged the best CQB weapon.


I think thats also a good one. It uses the .45, which has a lot of stopping power. So its a bigger round in a small accurate weapon. But, I think the price issue still remains.

Ideally, I think we would want to have a mix of high and low-cost/performance weapons.

I think the first responders should have the best weapons out there no matter what the cost of the weapon.

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Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby ParGha » 04 Sep 2009 06:56

VijayKumarSinha wrote:
PraGha wrote:It will still hurt a lot and daze you long enough to take you out of the fight for next few mins. In those mins, yes, your buddies can rescue you... or the man can come up to you, kick your helmet off, and put you out of your misery - or take you to a room where they redefine the boundaries of miseries.

Are you a Borne Supremacy novel salesman? :wink:

CREF John B. Dunlop's work on the Nord-Ost and Beslan incidents. Yes, I've worked in a library while in high-school. But do I sound like a guy who would recommend Ludlum? Actually you are pretty close with your musket reference - I am just the kind of guy in a library who would recommend a Bakers rifle and a Heavy Cavalry saber (Mod. H).

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The M-107 Barrett

Postby sanjeevpunj » 04 Sep 2009 13:27

I was reading with interest some stuff about this (longest range Sniper Rifle) capable of taking out an APC from a distance of 2000 mtrs or more.Here's a link to display its prowess - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TWJp14tkBlU, and interestingly Pakistan has acquired this weapon, so we need to acquire the same weapon plus train more snipers to handle it to counter the enemy.I would like India to acquire this weapon, it is a serious deterrant for stray objects in the battlefield. Imagine taking out an APC from 2 KM.

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Re: The M-107 Barrett

Postby Gaur » 04 Sep 2009 14:15

Welcome to BR!
There already exists a thread for small arms. In case you want to further write on this topic, please write your posts there.
By the way, IIRC Mumbai police have recently ordered them.
Last edited by Gaur on 04 Sep 2009 14:45, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: The M-107 Barrett

Postby sanjeevpunj » 04 Sep 2009 14:18

Parijat Gaur wrote:Welcome to BR!
There already exists a thread for small arms. In case you want to further write on this topic, please write our posts there.
By the way, IIRC Mumbai police have recently ordered them.


Thanks for the welcome. Glad to know the Police have ordered it, but what about our Special Forces? Won't they want it? yes and I shall be posting in the Small Arms section if I plan to write more on this.

Thank you and best wishes.

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Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby RayC » 04 Sep 2009 16:48

M107 .50 Caliber Special Application Scoped Rifle SASR
Long Range Sniper Rifle (LRSR)


The M107 .50-caliber long range rifle is semi-automatic and is being fielded to infantry soldiers. It can engage targets to 2,000 meters with precision. At 29 inches long, the frame mounted, bolt-action XM107 weighs 28.5 pounds with optics. It is manufactured by Barrett Firearms Manufacturing, Inc. The XM107 is a rapid-fire; man portable, shoulder-fired, recoil operated semi-automatic system utilizing military standard .50 caliber ammunition. The primary components of the system consist of a rifle, day optical sighting system and hard carrying case(s).

Army snipers deliver precision fire against enemy targets that are outside a rifleman's limitations of range, size, location, mobility and visibility. The M107 is derived from the M82A1 commercial version of the weapon that is manufactured by Barrett Firearms Manufacturing, Inc. of Murfreesboro, TN. It can defeat materiel targets located at distances beyond the range of the standard M24 7.62mm Sniper Weapon System, Galeazzi said. In the hands of a trained sniper, the M107 can surgically take out strategic targets while minimizing collateral damage. It is capable of hitting personnel targets as far away as 1500 meters and materiel targets out to 2000 meters.

The complete system includes the .50 caliber semi-automatic rifle, detachable 10-round magazine, variable-power day optic sight, transport case, tactical soft case, cleaning /maintenance equipment, detachable sling and adjustable bi-pod and manuals. It fires standard caliber .50 ammunition. The new rifle provides Army snipers a much needed solution that is tactically superior to other capabilities against materiel and personnel targets.

The M107 is the Barrett Model 95, a smaller, lightweight .50 caliber rifle with emphasis on accuracy and durability. The bullpup design results in a compact rifle with no sacrifice on accuracy or velocity thanks to its cryogenically treated 29-inch (73.7 cm) barrel, the same length as the Model 82A1. Recoil is reduced by the dual-chamber muzzle brake and specially designed recoil pad.

The 3-lug bolt of the M107 locks rigidly into the barrel extension, to accommodate the widest variety of factory ammunition loads. The adjustable bipod may be detached by removing a single quick-release pin. The M107 is set up to mount a variety of telescopic sights and with good ammunition this combination usually produces minute of Angle (MOA) accuracy. The M107 may be disassembled for cleaning without tools. 10 round magazines are available.

Barrett .50 caliber rifles are in service world-wide for EOD (Explosive Ordnance Disposal) use. Users have found that mounting the Barretts on vehicles is a rapid and cost-effective method of clearing military airport runways from unexploded ordnance. Others have found the Barrett as an effective means of detonating land mines once they have been detected.

The M107 Long Range Sniper Rifle (LRSR) candidate weapon was DA approved for Urgent Requirement procurement (without night sight capability) in October 2001. The night sight capability for the XM107 LRSR was TBD. With an armorer- level modification, the Rail Quick Release System would allow the AN/ PVS- 10 Sniper Day/ Night sight currently used with the M24 Sniper Weapon System to be used with the XM107 LSRS. The cost: $1,180 per set, with a BOIP of: One Sniper Team Set: Weapon base (2); Scope Rings/ base (2); PVS-10 base (1) per XM 107 LRSR / M24 SWS.


In January 2003 the U.S. Army Tank-automotive and Armaments Command, Armament Research, Development and Engineering Center (TACOM-ARDEC), Picatinny Arsenal, NJ announced an interest in acquiring information on commercially available or non-developmental item (NDI) suppressors that will reduce the baseline muzzle flash, blast and sound signatures of the Army's XM107 Caliber .50 rifle system (also commercially available as the Barrett M82A1-M). Potential contractors must be able to produce a minimum of 60 systems per month, with a production surge capability to 90 systems per month. The suppressor must be able to reduce the baseline signatures of the XM107 without adversely affecting or degrading weapon performance/accuracy, functionality, recoil, safety and reliability. It must also be modular enough to be quickly and easily installed and removed by the operator without requiring the use of special tools not readily available to the operator.

The .50 caliber Barrett Model 82A1/XM107 produces modest recoil energy. The weapon operating mechanism combined with an efficient muzzle brake reduce recoil energy to about 36 foot-pounds. The 25mm XM109 fires ammunition with essentially the same impulse as .50 caliber ammunition. However, the 25mm launches a much heavier projectile and uses much less propellant. The small amount of propellant limits the muzzle brake effects. The recoil energy of the XM109 exceeds 60 foot pounds. The suppressed version of the Model 82A1/XM107 produces significantly greater recoil energy than the muzzle brake variant of the 82A1/XM107, and is also a good candidate for recoil reduction efforts.

According to Operation Iraqi Freedom PEO Soldier Lessons Learned [LTC Jim Smith 15 May 2003] "The Barrett 50 cal Sniper Rifle may have been the most useful piece of equipment for the urban fight – especially for our light fighters. The XM107 was used to engage both vehicular and personnel targets out to 1400 meters. Soldiers not only appreciated the range and accuracy but also the target effect. Leaders and scouts viewed the effect of the 50 cal round as a combat multiplier due to the psychological impact on other combatants that viewed the destruction of the target.

“My spotter positively identified a target at 1400 meters carrying an RPG on a water tower. I engaged the target. The top half of the torso fell forward out of the tower and the lower portion remained in the tower.” 325th PIR Sniper

"There were other personal anecdotes of one round destroying two targets and another of the target “disintegrating.”

"The most pervasive negative comment was that snipers felt the Leopold Sight was inadequate for the weapon – that it was not ballistically matched. It the sight was zeroed for 500, 1000 and 1500 meters, soldiers did not feel confident in their ability to engage targets at the “between” distances (e.g. 1300 m). Snipers felt there were better sights available for this weapon such as the Swarovski. Sniper team spotters felt the tripod for the Leopold Spotter Scope could be better designed. COL Bray, Commander, 2d BCT, 82d Airborne Division supported an Operational Needs Statement for a Sniper Sight that would allow the sniper to identify targets as combatants or non-combatants out to 2000m."

Compared to the M24 7.62mm Sniper Rifle, the M107 has more powerful optics and fires a variety of .50 caliber munitions. This provides sniper teams greater capability to identify and defeat multiple targets at increased ranges. It is based on the US Marine Corps Special Application Scoped Rifle, the M82A3. The M107 enables Army snipers to accurately engage personnel and material targets out to a distance of 1500 to 2000 meters respectively. The weapon is designed to effectively engage and defeat materiel targets at extended ranges including parked aircraft, command, control and communications, computers, intelligence sites, radar sites, ammunition, petroleum, oil and lubricant sites and various lightly armoured targets.

In a counter-sniper role, the system offers longer standoff ranges and increased terminal effects against snipers using smaller calibre weapons. The complete system includes: the rifle itself, a detachable ten-round magazine,a variable-power day optic sight, a transport case, a tactical soft case, cleaning and maintenance equipment, a detachable sling, an adjustable bipod and manuals.

M107 .50 cal

VijayKumarSinha
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Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby VijayKumarSinha » 05 Sep 2009 06:05

sanjeevpunj wrote:
Parijat Gaur wrote:Welcome to BR!
There already exists a thread for small arms. In case you want to further write on this topic, please write our posts there.
By the way, IIRC Mumbai police have recently ordered them.


Thanks for the welcome. Glad to know the Police have ordered it, but what about our Special Forces? Won't they want it? yes and I shall be posting in the Small Arms section if I plan to write more on this.

Thank you and best wishes.


Hi Sanjeev,
I don't know if you have already come across this information by reading the previous posts but, the Indian Army and BSF already operates a LRSR/AMR named the Vidhwansak

Its operational stats are atleast as impressive as any other AMR out there but its almost twice as heavy as the M107 and the tac50(worlds longest shot ever gun!) and due to that I doubt how effective it can be in pure long range sniping roles because ideally a sniper needs to relocate after every shot and I can only imagine the difficulty in lugging a 25 kg rifle in such a situation.

Due to this, I hope that the DRDO and OFT would now design a much lighter version of this rifle.

I also do not know if the NSG operates Vidhwansak.

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Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby Rahul M » 05 Sep 2009 07:31

bruno ji, MOD report 2009 mentions that 20 mm anti-materials rifle is being produced for MHA which means NSG might use it but not the military.

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Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby A Sharma » 05 Sep 2009 07:52

I think there was a report that they are for BSF

Rahul M
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Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby Rahul M » 05 Sep 2009 08:10

yes, we know that already. but other MHA forces might also use them.


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