Armoured Vehicles Discussion Thread

Rahul M
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Armoured Vehicles Discussion Thread

Postby Rahul M » 17 Sep 2008 22:55

please continue here.

kindly restrict your discussion to the technical points.
don't go into endless speculations about who is doing why.

we don't need to stoop to the level of nosy journalists who don't have any conscience about maligning potentially innocent people.
forum rules would have to be enforced otherwise.
regards,
Rahul.

added later:
I'll try this once more in plain english. discuss hard facts or go post somewhere else.


added later : Henceforth this thread is for discussion of armoured vehicles only.

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Re: Artillery and Armor thread

Postby soutikghosh » 23 Sep 2008 13:01

Last edited by Rahul M on 23 Sep 2008 13:30, edited 1 time in total.
Reason: please don't post large images inline, it screws up the page format. tutorial for resizing images is available at misc pics thread. If you can't do that please post links only. Anyway this is again probably fan-art.

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Re: Artillery and Armor thread

Postby Venkarl » 25 Sep 2008 11:50

Arjun on DD..sorry if already posted

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rnpbEEzP ... re=related

Today...I am happy for three reasons :D
1) Heard "shudh" Hindi after a very long time... may be years......
2) Saw Arjun Firing in both day & night..on the move
3) Biggest surprise which took me away was BHIM

every arjun driver & gunner is happy......but that fast forwarding the arjun's ride a bit funny

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Re: Artillery and Armor thread

Postby Igorr » 25 Sep 2008 19:50

Exellent vid! Any chance somebody makes English subtitles?

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Re: Artillery and Armor thread

Postby sanjaychoudhry » 26 Sep 2008 02:46

Russia and India Agree to Transfer of Key Technology for T-90 Tanks

After two day-long intensive deliberations between the two countries, Russia has agreed to supply specifications of the T-90 tank barrels to India by the end of this year. The delay has prevented India from commencing production of the T-90 tanks at its own Avadi Heavy Vehicles Factory.

According to Defense Ministry Spokesman, Sitanshu Kar:“The talks were held in a highly professional manner. Sides expressed their readiness to take all the necessary measures to further develop cooperation on a mutually beneficial basis.”

The agreement promises a new independence for India as that country will soon be able be to produce these weapon platforms indigenously without the help of Russia. The two countries signed agreements for the delivery of almost 1,200 T-90 tanks for the staggering cost of 1.2 billion US dollars. The deal, which will conclude over the next five years, also provides to India the transfer of technology for the production of another 1,000 to 1,500 tanks. Moscow has also agreed to full product support for the production of these tanks.

The agreement clarifies the position of the Indian army, which is forced to continue to rely on mainly Russian tanks. The indigenous Indian Arjun tanks, have not yet passed important induction trials.

The joint development of a 5th generation fighter aircraft may also be in the works. Although the aircraft design has not been finalized, the two countries have agreed to ensure that this new fighter plane will be in service by the year 2015.

And for the rest of us, what kind of tanks can we expect to produce in the next five years or so? I for one don’t know, and wouldn’t venture a guess, but maybe somewhere there’s someone who….wants to make a deal?


http://inventorspot.com/articles/russia ... anks_18045

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Re: Artillery and Armor thread

Postby Vivek K » 26 Sep 2008 03:45

Welcome to another two decades of foreign junk that we will be taking into war!

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Re: Artillery and Armor thread

Postby Philip » 26 Sep 2008 17:44

1200 new T-90s,whatever has happened to the IA's FMBT programme? Or are these 1200 new T-90s going to replace the old tanks and early T-72s in service.If the IA is looking at an inventory of about 3,500-4,000 tanks in the future,about 75% would then comprise of upgraded T-72s,1500+T-90s,the first lot of a few hundred FMBTs entering service which will progressively replace the T-72s and the "cherries" on the top being the 125+ (maybe another 125 more if the DRDO is lucky) Arjuns!

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Re: Artillery and Armor thread

Postby Surya » 26 Sep 2008 18:44

Ok

The defence journalists on BRF - you seriously need tohaul those geniuses at armor procurement on camera and grill them.

This is asinine.


This pretty much kills the indigenous industry.

What a shameful day.

The Army brass should be ashamed of themselves for this.I am so sick and disgusted with this tamasha.

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Re: Artillery and Armor thread

Postby sum » 26 Sep 2008 19:04

The agreement clarifies the position of the Indian army, which is forced to continue to rely on mainly Russian tanks. The indigenous Indian Arjun tanks, have not yet passed important induction trials.

Errr...what exactly are these requirements?

Though i do admit that Arjun has failed in one QR of the IA: breaking the sound barrier while performing the double barrel rolls!!! :roll:

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Re: Artillery and Armor thread

Postby Ravishankar » 27 Sep 2008 13:32

How many T90S will be there in the IA, I believe the initial order was for 390 then this TOT for a 1000 more, right?

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Re: Artillery and Armor thread

Postby pkudva » 27 Sep 2008 17:59

The initial Oder was signed in 2001 for 310 Tanks, with anunderstanding of technology tranfer for the production of 1000 Tanks in Avadi.
The second order was signed late last year for 347 Tanks so the total count
will be 1647. We do not know further how many tanks will be manufactured in avadi other than 100 which was originally agreed in 2001.

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Re: Artillery and Armor thread

Postby gogna » 28 Sep 2008 20:54

how many T90 we are producing every year and how many t90 we have in our forces so far. Thank you

ps to those who call russian tanks as junk, what other options we had, what do you expect from the army to wait for the mighty Arjun another 10 years, they went for t90 because that was best option or the only option availabe for us at that time.

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Re: Artillery and Armor thread

Postby rkhanna » 28 Sep 2008 21:49

CVRDE to develop unmanned infantry combat vehicle

Chennai, Sep 28: The Combat Vehicles Research and Development Establishment (CVRDE) at Avadi near here has started developing unmanned infantry combat vehicle for carrying troops as a precursor to developing unmanned Future Main Battle Tank (FMBT) by 2020

Talking to mediapersons on the sidelines of SAE India Students Convention, organised by the SRM University at its campus in suburban Kattankulathur, here last evening, CVRDE Director S Sundaresh said robotic technology was being incorporated in the Russian Infantry Combat Vehicles (BMP Vehicles), which was being manufactured at Medak Plant using Russian technology.

A man base vehicle would control three unmanned vehicles to be used for surveillance, to detect Nuclear, Biological and Chemical weapons and mines.

The manned BMP vehicles being used by the Army would be converted into unmanned teleoperated autonomous vehicle, the prototype of which was demonstrated to the participants of the convention.

''We have undertaken the project last year and a full-fledged vehicle will be handed over to Army in four years' time. We are planning to hand it over to Army by 2011 for field tests, after which we will take up full scale production,'' he added.

--- UNI

http://www.newkerala.com/topstory-fullnews-27140.html

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Re: Artillery and Armor thread

Postby sunilUpa » 28 Sep 2008 22:10

What on earth is an unmanned IFV? I thought IFV's job is to take 'men' in to battle.. :((

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Re: Artillery and Armor thread

Postby rkhanna » 28 Sep 2008 22:54

Well i am assuming that the IFV wont have a driving crew. Also the Platform would be used for MULE purposes,Surv,Recce, ATGM platforms, Mortar Carriers , Battlefield Ambulances.

Making it unmanned would have certain advantages for sure. Also Having an Unmanned Vehicle dropping off troops in the middle of a battle sure reduces casualties no?

Anways one Ground Vehicle can monitor and control 3 such vehicles. Situational Awarness would be better (assuming Ground Vehicle is synced up with UAVs and other Surv systems).

This is TEST platform. if the Technology is validated (like how the Navy wants to turn the Cheetah into a UAV) the possibilities are endless. The Cheetah could go from being an UNMANNED ASW platform to an UNMANNED AntiTank missle carrying platform. Same for the "IFV"

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Re: Artillery and Armor thread

Postby Surya » 28 Sep 2008 23:47

rkhanna

makes no sense for an unmanned vehicle to drop troops

if I was a trooper inside that tin can the last thing I am going to trust is a piece of software.

a couple of extra crew compared to the 7 troopers is not big deal.

And you are risking 7 troopers anyway so not sure what sense in not having a couple of crew.

makes sense in NBC conditions and high IED environments or automated counter ambush but in these cases there would be no other trooper in it

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Re: Artillery and Armor thread

Postby soutikghosh » 29 Sep 2008 03:59

An interesting presentation/read on the performance of M1A1 ABRAMS armour in recent and ongoing conflict in Iraq

http://www.fprado.com/armorsite/US-F...abrams-oif.pdf

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Re: Artillery and Armor thread

Postby Neshant » 29 Sep 2008 05:34

Is the Arjun going into mass production?

If not, when will it be going into mass production?

Does any one know its status.

I can't even find the Arjun thread anymore.

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Re: Artillery and Armor thread

Postby m mittal » 29 Sep 2008 06:35

Out of 124 Arjun Tanks 12 were inducted for trials. Close to 80 are awaiting to be inducted at Avadhi Factory. There was a recent concern by the Avadhi Factory that they do not have enough parking place at the Avadhi Factory and have rented some place to park the Arjuns.

DRDO has asked for the order of 500 tanks for making the investment in the Arjun even, before they go on to the development of futuristic tank. But army seems to be more interested in going for a JV with Russia in building up a futuristic tank.

MoD seems to have realized that the army leadership is corrupt and is now intervening.

Hope to see the follow on order soon and induction of already manufactured Arjuns soon.

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Re: Artillery and Armor thread

Postby neerajb » 29 Sep 2008 08:19

rkhanna wrote:Making it unmanned would have certain advantages for sure.


The only advantage that I can see is in case the driver is hit (if they do have redundant manual controls), the vehicle can be brought back to safety remotely. Otherwise driverless IFV makes no sense to me albeit they could have used this driverless tech to transports.

Cheers....

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Re: Artillery and Armor thread

Postby Rahul M » 29 Sep 2008 08:26

don't think this would be for transporting soldiers.
recon role, most likely.

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Re: Artillery and Armor thread

Postby sum » 29 Sep 2008 08:34

This is TEST platform. if the Technology is validated (like how the Navy wants to turn the Cheetah into a UAV) the possibilities are endless.

Can only hope and pray that there is Russian involvement from the start for the unmanned IFV thingie and its not a purely indigenous effort else it will go the Arjun way.....

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Re: Artillery and Armor thread

Postby Nitesh » 01 Oct 2008 19:01

Russia to deliver another 18 Smerch rocket launchers to India

01/ 10/ 2008

MOSCOW, October 1 (RIA Novosti) - Russia will deliver an additional 18 Smerch multiple rocket launch systems to India, the state-run arms exporter said on Wednesday.

"This agreement was reached during the Russian defense minister's recent visit to Delhi," Nikolai Dimidyuk of Rosoboronexport said.

The Smerch MRLS can effectively engage any type of target within a range of 20 to 90 kilometers, and is operated by a crew of three servicemen.

Russia is soon to start delivering 38 Smerch-M 9À52-2 MRLSs to India under a $450 million contract signed two years ago.

In August, Rosoboronexport signed a $300 million contract for the delivery of additional Smerch systems.

http://www.en.rian.ru/russia/20081001/117357923.html

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Re: Artillery and Armor thread

Postby Raj Malhotra » 01 Oct 2008 20:59

Does it mean 38+24+18 = 80 launchers for smerch now?

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Re: Artillery and Armor thread

Postby pkudva » 01 Oct 2008 21:49

It may be only 38+24 as recently a new deal for 300$ million was signed in Aug 2008 so it should for a total of 62 units and moreover , the figures mentioned may be wrong.
Secondly Russia has already started delivery the first batch of Smerch Units as per the deal which was signed in 2005,so they cannot say that they will start the delivery soon.
Earlier it was reported that they have already completed the delivery of the first batch.
It was also informed that the second phase of delivery will be completed by 2010.

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Re: Artillery and Armor thread

Postby vivek_ahuja » 01 Oct 2008 22:52

Pardon me if I am wrong, but doesn't it seem like a ridiculously low number of launchers for an Army the size India has? I mean, it makes sense if the Army is waiting for the Pinaka Mk-II type vehicle for taking over the heavier class MLRS requirement, but in the meantime, the numbers seem to be more for show, than part of an actual strategic concept of waging war. Sorry for having to say so.

-Vivek

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Re: Artillery and Armor thread

Postby vavinash » 01 Oct 2008 23:15

I have to agree with vivek 80 Smerch is barely enough for out western border. We need atleast 200 for IA and hopefully the rest will be made up by Pinaka-II. With the chinks doing a echha copy of the Smerch and passing it onto the pakis IA cannot afford to sit quiet.

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Re: Artillery and Armor thread

Postby Santosh » 02 Oct 2008 05:46

38 Smerch for $450 million. Thats almost $12 million per copy. LCA was supposed to cost like $20 million per copy. Hmmmm. Does anyone know how many rockets it comes with?

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Re: Artillery and Armor thread

Postby Rahul M » 02 Oct 2008 06:02

vivek_ahuja wrote:Pardon me if I am wrong, but doesn't it seem like a ridiculously low number of launchers for an Army the size India has? I mean, it makes sense if the Army is waiting for the Pinaka Mk-II type vehicle for taking over the heavier class MLRS requirement, but in the meantime, the numbers seem to be more for show, than part of an actual strategic concept of waging war. Sorry for having to say so.

-Vivek

20 would make about one regiment, correct ?

I would guess that they are raising one regiment each for the 3 strike corps, for the moment.

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Re: Artillery and Armor thread

Postby Rupak » 02 Oct 2008 06:52

It's 3 batteries of 4 each, total 12 per regiment in case of the Smerch.

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Re: Artillery and Armor thread

Postby Rahul M » 02 Oct 2008 06:59

thanks boss. this means about 5/6 regiments w/o reserves.

also, IA refused the russki drone that came with it. what will they use instead, nishant ?

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Re: Artillery and Armor thread

Postby Vivek K » 02 Oct 2008 08:36

What's the cost of the Pinaka? Any estimates of the price and comparison of Pinaka II with Smerch?

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Re: Artillery and Armor thread

Postby srai » 02 Oct 2008 09:52

Vivek K wrote:What's the cost of the Pinaka? Any estimates of the price and comparison of Pinaka II with Smerch?


214mm PINAKA MBRL
...
Tata Power's Advanced Material Division and Larsen & Tubro's Heavy Engineering Division were awarded a contract worth Rs 200 crore (US $45 million) by Army HQ, on 29 March 2006, to produce 40 Pinaka MRBLs each.
...

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Re: Artillery and Armor thread

Postby srai » 02 Oct 2008 09:58

vivek_ahuja wrote:Pardon me if I am wrong, but doesn't it seem like a ridiculously low number of launchers for an Army the size India has? I mean, it makes sense if the Army is waiting for the Pinaka Mk-II type vehicle for taking over the heavier class MLRS requirement, but in the meantime, the numbers seem to be more for show, than part of an actual strategic concept of waging war. Sorry for having to say so.

-Vivek



Here's some info on a new version of Pinaka MBRL:

214mm PINAKA MBRL
...
In 2005, ARDE announced that it was developing a 7.2 metre rocket for the Pinaka MBRL, which reach a distance of 120 km and carry a 250 kg payload [14]. These new rockets can be ripple fired in 44 seconds, have a maximum speed of Mach 4.7, rise to an altitude of 40 km before hitting its target at Mach 1.8 and can destroy an area of 3.9 sq km [15]. The rocket's range is enhanced by a unique dual thrust system, which will be used in the initial thrust at the time of launch and will be reduced substantially during flight time [16]. Integrating UAVs (Unmanned Aerial Vehicle) with the Pinaka is also in the pipeline, as DRDO intends to install guidance systems on these rockets to increase their accuracy [17]. Development and trials will continue and the rocket is only expected to enter service by 2012 [18].
...




As far as numbers go, it says something like
...
The first Pinaka regiment was raised in February 2000 [19]. A regiment consists of three batteries of six Pinakas each, plus reserves. It is expected that one regiment will be added each year as the oldest BM-21s are withdrawn from service.
...


According to the Army ORBAT page, there are around 150+ 122mm BM-21/LRAR. So you can do the math as to how many are required to replace the BM-21s.

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Re: Artillery and Armor thread

Postby vivek_ahuja » 02 Oct 2008 10:47

srai wrote:Here's some info on a new version of Pinaka MBRL:

214mm PINAKA MBRL


That's the one I was talking about as the Mk-II version (with all the bells and whistles so to speak).

srai wrote:According to the Army ORBAT page, there are around 150+ 122mm BM-21/LRAR. So you can do the math as to how many are required to replace the BM-21s.


I wasn't talking about replacing BM-21s. That's going on already with the Pinaka. But even if we replace all of the BM-21s with the Pinaka variants (Note: You have the Mk-I version now, but these will get upgraded to Mk-II down the line), it still does not address the original question:

There is a long, medium and short range requirement that needs to be met. In the long range requirement, the number of Smerch launchers seems low. In addition, what about attrition replacements? You can bet the enemy will accord a high amount of attention to taking out these units. The point being that with a front a thousand kilometer long, that 80+ number of Smerch MRLs seem to be spread really low anyway. If in addition they take losses or require maintenance etc, you get to see how thinly spread they really are.

Now when the Pinaka Mk-II version comes along, this capability gap reduces since the Pinaka then transfers itself from the medium range category to the long range one. But then what happens to the Medium range requirement? If the Army is depending on the Pinaka to shift back and forth between long range and medium range requirements using varying munition types then that could work. Or else they should increase the numbers and allow a simultaneous long and medium range weapons platform to be at the disposal of the field commanders.

As always, of course, I am open for correction on the matter. As it turns out, I am a proponent for providing devastating and heavy firepower at all of our commander's fingertips. So I could be biased against the dual use flexibility of the Pinaka! :)

-Vivek

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Re: Artillery and Armor thread

Postby pkudva » 02 Oct 2008 14:33

Guys,we should not forget either 62 or 80 units will be procured in completely assembled condition.But there was also a media report saying that there will be Transfer of Technology so it definately we can manufacture them in India too as the same way as T-90.
Pinaka MK-2 will definately come as the periodic testings do take place to test for new rockets with enhanced ranges. presently the range is in between 39km-45km.I think they will try to increase the range upto 120km as we have smerch which can cover the distance between 70km-90km.
we also have to consider wether either pinaka or smerch can be used in himalayan regions or desert region. There may be planning where pinaka will be used in deserts and smerch in himalayan regions or vice versa. Its just a guess.

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Re: Artillery and Armor thread

Postby srai » 03 Oct 2008 03:53

vivek_ahuja wrote:...

The point being that with a front a thousand kilometer long, that 80+ number of Smerch MRLs seem to be spread really low anyway. If in addition they take losses or require maintenance etc, you get to see how thinly spread they really are.

...
-Vivek


The border maybe 1000 kilometer long but not the front necessarily. Armies don't tend to spread in long linear lines along the border. They will pick their spot(s) and move through in relative concentration.

Yes the numbers are quite low but if you think about what the IA had prior to these 80 Smerch MRLS then you'll realize it is a big leap. One can be sure that there will be more coming in due time. For one thing, there is a tendency among the IA (and Indian Armed forces in general) to place initial orders in small batch quantities. The follow on order typically is much larger and repeated over.

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Re: Artillery and Armor thread

Postby Malay » 03 Oct 2008 14:07

Thats falling into the Pakistani syndrome-comparing with what we had before and thinking we'r much better off. We need to compare in terms of what others have acquired as well in that timeframe as well. We know that the Chinese have large quantities of MRLS-we know they will use them liberally if they have them-that puts our arty's at a disadvantage unless we too use MLRS liberally-for that we need quantity.

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Re: Artillery and Armor thread

Postby satya » 03 Oct 2008 14:37

Regarding Smerch MBRL in IA , need to keep in mind a few things b4 we consider the 'small number' being ordered :

1. IA initially ordered 39 or so launchers , making up 3 regiments ( 12 per regt.) and it was decided to use it as a Corps level weapon .

2. IA need to develop and find tune its arty. warfare doctrine with the induction of a new weapon system in form of Smerch , pls dont its doctrine place with existing Grad MBRLs for both are lot different in terms of range, accuracy and effectiveness to name a few factors . It takes take , iirc when BMP IFVs were introduced , it took IA almost 5 + years to have an effective doctrine in place . Not sure but i think there was an article regarding induction and finetuning the strategy as per new weapon in BR Monitor . So once IA actually has an operational Smerch regt. and validate its use in field exercises only then will it know the actual numbers required not b4 .

3. Pinaka MK-2 is also in pipeline and is suppose to be inducted sometimes btw 2010-2015 time frame and provides at min. wht Smerch is already offering .

4. Going by limited number initially , IA top brass intends to use it in its offensive ops ( tht drastically brings down the numbers required ) . Secondly , how many 2 sq. kms or more enemy formations , we see available tht require massive numbers , not to forget the cost factor

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Re: Artillery and Armor thread

Postby Philip » 03 Oct 2008 15:42

Some time ago,I mentioned the article where the IA's firepower doctrine was to follow the Russian/Soviet "100 gun" system,where overwhelming firepower on the battlefield would sufficiently degrade the enemy's forces.We see here the hint of a layered system of artillery,from close ranges upto almost the range of our Prithvi missiles,using field artillery,SPs,MBRls-Pinaka and Smerch.


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