Armoured Vehicles Discussion Thread

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KrishG
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Re: Artillery and Armor thread

Post by KrishG »

Unmanned robotic ground vehicles being developed
9 January 2009

Image

Three types of unmanned robotic ground vehicles for detecting and clearing landmines, fencing the areas affected by nuclear, biological or chemical (NBC) warfare agents and watching the enemy territory at night are being developed by the Combat Vehicles Research and Development Establishment (CVRDE), Avadi, near here.

The existing infantry combat vehicle (BMP-II version), which weighs about 14 tonnes, is being modified for the purpose. It will be remote-controlled from a base station.

CVRDE director S. Sundaresh said: “They will be on the road in the later part of 2009. They will be equipped with high-power lasers, sensors and have the global positioning system. Our ultimate aim is to develop an unmanned combat vehicle.”

Normally, manned vehicles travel into areas affected by the NBC warfare agents to demarcate such territories. The unmanned vehicle can navigate obstacles, travel to different terrains affected by the NBC warfare agents and mark such areas with pickets.

Mr. Sundaresh said: “It will have a five-metre tall mast with sensors. A camera will take high-resolution pictures of the enemy territory and send the pictures by radio links to the base-station so that the Army commander will know the enemy’s strengths and weaknesses,” he said.

This vehicle will have a self-destruct capability, if captured. It will destroy itself after cleaning up its electronics. “This is one of the exciting areas we are working on,” he pointed out.

http://www.idrw.org/2009/01/09/unmanned ... loped.html
The base station that will control the three types of vehicles will be located about five km away. The range can be extended up to 15 km.
Cross-country mobility

“The size of the vehicle is not a critical factor in NBC reconnaissance or clearing landmines. It can go close to the enemy area and take pictures,” the CVRDE director said.

As they will be tracked vehicles, they can boast of cross-country mobility. They can traverse different types of terrain.

“The electronics will be soon integrated into these vehicles,” said Mr. Sundaresh.

The CVRDE, a unit of the Defence Research and Development Organisation (DRDO), had designed and developed Arjun, India’s main battle tank.
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Re: Artillery and Armor thread

Post by Kumar_I »

KiranM wrote:
Philip wrote:Guys,please read carefully

If DRDO is as incompetent as claimed, they could have screwed around with even the missile program. But they didnt.
DRDO is not incompetent its not competitive and stubborn. The only real change will come if they have a rival in domestic arena. May be from Private vendors of independent Army, Navy and AF labs.

Remember a lot of military technology has found better civilian uses.

What is the state of Artillery today. Are they short on Guns.
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Re: Artillery and Armor thread

Post by m mittal »

DRDO is not incompetent its not competitive and stubborn. The only real change will come if they have a rival in domestic arena. May be from Private vendors of independent Army, Navy and AF labs.
You have it....this is today's news.

Go through these links:

http://www.india-defence.com/reports-4181

http://www.india-defence.com/reports-4180
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Re: Artillery and Armor thread

Post by Kumar_I »

m mittal wrote:
DRDO is not incompetent its not competitive and stubborn. The only real change will come if they have a rival in domestic arena. May be from Private vendors of independent Army, Navy and AF labs.
You have it....this is today's news.
Go through these links:
http://www.india-defence.com/reports-4181
http://www.india-defence.com/reports-4180
Great, I do not want to deviate for original thread of Artillery

I must say reading first article gives me a impression that L&T is cautious not to offend DRDO or HAL and slowly get into the arena. I like where he says We want to get into aviation but there is no road map and HAL is sole provider. We are working with HAL and we have capacity to expand
You know what he means
Second link though civilian nuclear reactor it gives good experience.
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Re: Artillery and Armor thread

Post by Kumar_I »

A krish wrote:
Unmanned robotic ground vehicles being developed
9 January 2009

Image
Krish,

Interesting, looks like Israeli influence. They are good in building stuff like this they have bulldozers remotely controlled and armored recovery. I did have not seen them in Gaza recently.
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Re: Artillery and Armor thread

Post by Kumar_I »

Great article I read today

How can Army win wars with outdated artillery
Manoj Joshi
January 23, 2009
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Bofors guns in a row, belching fire at Tiger Hill remain one of the iconic pictures of the 1999 Kargil War. Yet it was not known at the time that India had to fly in ammunition from South Africa.

"Had the conflict not been confined to the 150- km front of the Kargil sector," says Brig (Retd) Gurmeet Kanwal, director of the New Delhi- based Centre for Land Warfare Studies, "T- 72 and 130 mm medium gun ammunition would have also run short. That would have been embarrassing for the government as well as the Army." Everyone knows that the superb Bofors guns became a victim of the controversy over commissions paid for their acquisition.

But it is the country that has paid the real price. The 400 guns acquired were to have been followed by another 1,000 to be made indigenously.

That did not happen and the original guns diminished through wear, tear and cannibalisation for parts.

They nonetheless remain the mainstay of the Army’s artillery units.

It has taken the government nearly two decades since the Bofors scandal peaked to issue request for proposals for 155 mm guns and howitzers for the mountains and plains, and self- propelled guns for the desert.

If the Army is lucky, four guns shortlisted will go for trials and a final selection made that could join the Army by 2012 or so.

Till then, the Army will have to depend on its long- obsolete indigenously designed and manufactured 105 mm Indian Field Gun (IFG) and the Light Field Gun (LFG), the 75/24 Indian Mountain Gun, the 100 mm Russian field gun and the 122 mm Russian howitzer.

There is some relief that we have managed to upgrade some 180 pieces of the fabled 130 mm M46 Russian medium guns with the help of the Israelis.

Some more relief comes from the acquisition of two regiments of the 12-tube, 300 mm Smerch multi- barrel rocket launcher (MBRL) system with 90 km range. Had they been available then, they would have provided India the ability to hit at Pakistani artillery positions in Kargil.

All this pain and expense had to be borne because of the DRDO- designed Pinaka system, which is in any case inferior to the Russian product.

The one area in which India has been traditionally weak is that of selfpropelled artillery.

These are the heavy guns mounted on a tracked chassis which are integral to any offensive armoured force.

The US supplied Pakistan the first 155 mm artillery in the 1960s, and even today it has an edge over India in having something like 250 SP guns, which include some super- heavy 203 mm.

India, on the other hand has just 100 130mm Catapult guns which is a juryrigged system of a Russian 130mm gun mounted on a Vijayanta chassis.

Artillery officers complain the gun is too heavy for its chassis, which tends to break down regularly.

The plan to acquire a 155 mm SP gun using a South African turret was scuttled some years ago because its supplier, Denel, was involved in a bribery scandal relating to another Army unarmed? acquisition.

The lack of a relatively light mountain gun or a self- propelled gun affect any offensive war plan the Army may like to formulate.

Movement in the mountains is extremely difficult and getting guns to negotiate the hair- pin bends of the roads is a major task.

So, some of the guns have to be light enough to be lifted by helicopters. As for SP guns, without them, any armoured thrust lacks the firepower it needs to punch through enemy defences.

There is one other area where the Indian Army has been weaker than Pakistan. This is the area of artillery and mortar tracking using battlefield tracking radars.

Islamabad has fielded a French Rasit system since the early 1980s along with the US- supplied AN/ TPQ36, which were used in the Kargil war for tracking Indian mortar and artillery fire.

By contrast, India sought to develop one of its own and actually rejected a US offer for an AN/ TPQ37, a more advanced version of the radar Islamabad had.

This was done at the request of the DRDO, which said it was developing the system. By the time New Delhi realised its mistake, it had come under US sanctions in the wake of the nuclear tests of 1998.

Since then, the US has sold us six of the radars which form the core of the counter- battery systems. According to Kanwal, at least 30 to 40 such radars are required for effective counter- bombardment, especially in the plains.

Only a few have been procured so far.

http://indiatoday.digitaltoday.in/index ... 9&Itemid=1
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Re: Artillery and Armor thread

Post by Baljeet »

Kumar I
You should cross post this article in other Dhaga: "India Non Response to Terror Attack". I have written few posts about the pathetic state of Indian Military's Fighting capability. Now as more information is coming out, it seems like if pakis were not as bankrupt as they really are, if they had full frontal assault they might have snatched up kashmir and Rann Of Kutch from us.
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Re: Artillery and Armor thread

Post by Vikram_S »

Manoj joshi article is sad joke and is also typical of shitty state of journalism in mainstream indian media.

i would request baljeet to actually take visit to india and see reality.
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Re: Artillery and Armor thread

Post by Vikram_S »

Kumar_I wrote:krish,

Interesting, looks like Israeli influence. They are good in building stuff like this they have bulldozers remotely controlled and armored recovery. I did have not seen them in Gaza recently.
please show evidence of israel influence
Great, I do not want to deviate for original thread of Artillery

I must say reading first article gives me a impression that L&T is cautious not to offend DRDO or HAL and slowly get into the arena.
L&T is one of oldest player in defence arena and is close partner of drdo hal so where is question of offence

L&T is given strategic project of ATV as well
I like where he says We want to get into aviation but there is no road map and HAL is sole provider. We are working with HAL and we have capacity to expand
You know what he means
tell us what he means
in common sense it just shows to become full manufacturer it takes huge investment and time and with limited resource it is better to be supplier to HAL then competitor
Second link though civilian nuclear reactor it gives good experience.
what is relevance of nuclear reactor to this topic
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Re: Artillery and Armor thread

Post by Baljeet »

Vikram_S
Why is it anytime there is a negative report about the efficiency, capability, resources about Indian Military becomes public, people like you become so defensive. We as a nation can learn to face our deamons, our weakness, fix the problem, retaliate or learn to live with "PITA" (Pakis Inspired Terror Attacks).
Just to give you an example, pakis know more about our strength and weaknesses than we know about our nation. They know very well, as long as the current setup exists in India, Indian Military capability will keep eroding. I would request you Mr. Vikram S to do some introspection, take a hollistic view of capabilities, do an objective analysis and apprise yourself, because our nemesis are doing it and doing it so well they are humiliating, beating us to the punch every single time.
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Re: Artillery and Armor thread

Post by Vikram_S »

baljeet you need to follow own advice and take holistic view of capabilities before falling for stupid shallow article posted by kumar I and making childish comment about "people like you become so defensive". kumar I level of knowledge is also clear when he says it is "great article".

it is worthy of laughter only from anyone who can know reality. there is several book published by IDSA with analysis of indian army capability.

reality is indian military capability against pakistan is very strong, most credit goes to NDA govt of 2001-2 which saw issue at parakram and 1999 kargil and clear lot of modernisation but fact is it is so more, after 7 more years.
in tank and armoured warfare currently india has still got huge lead over pakistan. in night fighting capability of only armour both nation is comparable but holistic view factoring in IAF makes pakistan position much weaker.

in infantry, indian army has gone through huge modernisation in many level. indian army is now using thermal imager in mass quantity where is pak equivalent?
also in surveillance system indian army has repeatedly shown level of integration beyond pak army in communication, UAV and radar link.

i would also advise you if you are serious observor of indian military to see indian exercises in past 7 years and see evolution of capability.

artillery modernisation is of course lagging but compared to what pakistan is having it is far better.

problem is you persons are relying on shitty internet articles and not seeing big picture.

indian army was ready to attack in 2002 also. it was not allowed to make the same because of nuke factor.

same scenario is currently the problem. all rest is secondary.

india problem with terror is weak center unable to take harsh anti terror measure (for votebank) and threat of nuke escalation of conventional conflict.

now final statement so that you understand. if india pakistan is at equal level at conventional conflict, india would not have worry of sudden nuke factor in conflict as it would be long gradual attrition war.

in reality india is far more able to inflict so much damage on pakistan that pakistan is threatening to use n at first opportunity, that is problem which india is facing.

that is reality, not army, navy or air force strength.
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Re: Artillery and Armor thread

Post by Vikram_S »

for more detail on indian army ability, and inter service method see:

http://books.google.com/books?id=FIIQhu ... =&as_brr=3
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Re: Artillery and Armor thread

Post by ramana »

Vikram_S, Thanks for the book link. Will read and maybe order the book formthe Uty. He does have a point of view!
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Re: Artillery and Armor thread

Post by Kumar_I »

Vikram_S wrote:
Kumar_I wrote:krish,

Interesting, looks like Israeli influence. They are good in building stuff like this they have bulldozers remotely controlled and armored recovery. I did have not seen them in Gaza recently.
please show evidence of israel influence
Great, I do not want to deviate for original thread of Artillery

I must say reading first article gives me a impression that L&T is cautious not to offend DRDO or HAL and slowly get into the arena.
L&T is one of oldest player in defence arena and is close partner of drdo hal so where is question of offence

L&T is given strategic project of ATV as well
I like where he says We want to get into aviation but there is no road map and HAL is sole provider. We are working with HAL and we have capacity to expand
You know what he means
tell us what he means
in common sense it just shows to become full manufacturer it takes huge investment and time and with limited resource it is better to be supplier to HAL then competitor
Second link though civilian nuclear reactor it gives good experience.
what is relevance of nuclear reactor to this topic
Influence also result in Inspiration, If you are at all familiar with Israel military Industry, you will know Israel have very heavy research on remote controlled and unmanned Vehicles, Areial and Ground.

from the article
Elaborating on the research facility, he said the DRDO will play a valuable role if it restricts to real cutting edge high-end technologies,
Correct my english and tell me it is not suggesting that DRDO to follow its strong suit to be in arena of research let L&T do the production. L&T is inclining itself. If you read press release from companies they are always sweet and optimistic

Why to argue its all win win either way. What is your point of picking fight.

Tell me why none of the private companies in India cannot open a aircraft manufacturing or ship building plant. And dont tell me cost is a factor because if you know lot of corporation are already investing and are ready to invest in infrascture. I believe its GOI's policy of keeping these areas under PSU. Ex airforce working in HAL will tell you every new order means extra OTs i.e big paycheck for HAL worker which they intentionally delay to get OT (over time).


what is relevance of nuclear reactor to this topic
i belive you said L&T is given ATV contract. expertise on Nuclear reactor aquired will help them in their shipbuilding business
http://www.topix.com/forum/in/chennai/TRR4SVE4TJIR3NATA

British SSBN has rolls royce reactor
Nimitz has Westinghouse reactor
G Ford Carrier will have Bechtel reactor

Bechtel is heavy engg company like L&T building dam and bridges

There is no intention of belittling any one here
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Re: Artillery and Armor thread

Post by Vikram_S »

for your information i have responded below.
Influence also result in Inspiration, If you are at all familiar with Israel military Industry, you will know Israel have very heavy research on remote controlled and unmanned Vehicles, Areial and Ground.
this is motherhood statement where is the reality of CVRDE project influenced by israel?
it is like saying since wright brother make plane so HAL IJT is influenced by US
from the article
Elaborating on the research facility, he said the DRDO will play a valuable role if it restricts to real cutting edge high-end technologies,
Correct my english and tell me it is not suggesting that DRDO to follow its strong suit to be in arena of research let L&T do the production. L&T is inclining itself. If you read press release from companies they are always sweet and optimistic
your assumption is still assumption
do not let assumption become fact in your opinion because of playing word games!

tell forum where is L&T playing in defence?

i will tell you.

nag project- L&T is making launcher, with drdo help. radar project, L&T is making antenna stand system with DRDO help. in other projects also it is same.

knowing context it is accurate to conclude, L&T is asking DRDO to keep regarding L&T as key partner and in return L&T is also investing in R&D to assist DRDO.

this is L&T sweetener to make L&T compete against PSU for DRDO project.
reality right now is PSU like BEL has beaten L&T in several project (See RFP) so L&T has no option but to play high money game.

Why to argue its all win win either way. What is your point of picking fight.
if you are making comment which is wrong i will say it is wrong. there is no need for you to cry or complain over this. it is not made to insult you but to correct facts
Tell me why none of the private companies in India cannot open a aircraft manufacturing or ship building plant. And dont tell me cost is a factor because if you know lot of corporation are already investing and are ready to invest in infrascture.
you are very wrong on this matter and need to spend more time understanding industry. you are saying cost is not factor? then you are surely not able to estimate cost of real infrastructure from bottom up. even SARAS project is not going to private player because IAF is pointing out that infrastructure in pvt player is nowhere near HAL ability. in current environment no company is putting crorers in full scale manufacture capability to match HAL ability develop over 20 year of slow but going on investment.

this is reality. no private company is given blank check by GOI because GOI is already enough full of PSU and further investment is not possible, and pvt company want GOI contract and full investment also. this is not possible currently.

go to CII conference and spend some information time with people to ask about these matters.
I believe its GOI's policy of keeping these areas under PSU. Ex airforce working in HAL will tell you every new order means extra OTs i.e big paycheck for HAL worker which they intentionally delay to get OT (over time).
this is again funny statement because ex airforce working in HAL should go to pvt player and they will see much more but disguised under more complicated statement of billing hours.
you are seriously unrealistic on pvt sector which is on way of developing but is nowhere near the requirement of reality

what is relevance of nuclear reactor to this topic
i belive you said L&T is given ATV contract. expertise on Nuclear reactor aquired will help them in their shipbuilding business
nuclear reactor is only required for ATV, your example are of company which has huge R&D in power system of nuclear system, no indian company is there yet. L&T is only doing fabrication and manufacture but not more which is still DAE work.
in US, this work is also done by company which has both R&D and manufacture in one place

india all R&D is done by GOI AGENCY and given for cheap amount to pvt player by GOI allowing local player to bypass R&D investment, but which does fabrication (exception is there, but generally this is how it matters)
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Re: Artillery and Armor thread

Post by Kumar_I »

Israel influnce I said Looks like ( speculation not a fact )

If you think PSU is good and only ATV need a nuclear reactor. you are talking present When companies roll out plans they think decades ahead. Are you certain only ATV will be nuclear and carrier will be non nuclear in FUTURE.

If PSU is so strong why ask L&T to come in ? Cant HAL manufacture on its own with huge infracture, Why seek assistance from other international companies ?
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Re: Artillery and Armor thread

Post by Vikram_S »

Kumar_I wrote:Israel influnce I said Looks like ( speculation not a fact )
what is speculation on basis of? i ask as it is becoming increasing common in india media to see israel in everything
why not french or US influence?

US is ahead of israel in robotics, why not US influence?

that is the point. we should not just make speculation.
If you think PSU is good and only ATV need a nuclear reactor. you are talking present When companies roll out plans they think decades ahead. Are you certain only ATV will be nuclear and carrier will be non nuclear in FUTURE.
tell me plans of IN nuclear carriers in near future? ppl will be grandfathers by time IN has nuclear carriers.

right now ATV is focus area for deterrence. it is being done mostly by DAE. if L&T work on JV/foreign reactor, work will be limited to fabrication and with safeguard to prevent foreign company IP loss. it is not just easy to transfer to military program is my point.

If PSU is so strong why ask L&T to come in ? Cant HAL manufacture on its own with huge infracture, Why seek assistance from other international companies ?
look in annual report and statement from HAL and HAL suppliers. point is to be flexible. HAL want to make 90% indigenization, better option is to go to pvt sector for making components for some system (small production volume or existing capability) than do own investment from scratch.

this is where pvt company --->L&T--> is useful.

we should look at overall picture without bias, of PSU or non PSU. consider both as equal and then we should do thinking of why HAL is doing/not doing something.

international company JV has entirely different dynamics.
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Re: Artillery and Armor thread

Post by Baljeet »

Vikram_S
Man please stop talking in rehtoric. You are quoting a book. Did you ever think the motive of author. Every writer who writes anything has one of the two motives, either for or against. When Armored Corps officers say, they will not cross international border with Arjun Tank, tells you the story. When COAS says, "we will fight with what we have..." tells you a story. Jingoism and blind faith doesn't win war or battles all it does it cost lives of brave young men as it was apparent in Kargil war. When did GOI ever came out with correct stat on casualties, how many of our own froze to death due to lack of clothing, how much of 155 ammo stock we had then, your NDA itself has said, Russia, Israel provided us ammo from their own war time stock. Now coming to Op Prakram or whatever it was called. It was diplomatic blunder, a national humiliation that caused the lives of soldiers who died clearning and laying mines. What was achieved from that. All that did was exposed our belly. If we had the capability and resources we would not have capitualted , but NDA did, nonetheless.

When our own officers are involved in substituting water for diesel from chandi mandir to srinagar it tells you a story.

Treat these men in uniform like humans don't make them demigods. They have strengths and weaknesses just like everyone. Accept the fact there are alot of problems with our military setup.
We have to fix the problems.

BTW you are entitled to your opinion but learn to accept a dissension. :wink:
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Re: Artillery and Armor thread

Post by Kanson »

All this pain and expense had to be borne because of the DRDO- designed Pinaka system, which is in any case inferior to the Russian product.
This gentleman can't stop licking drdo wherever he lay his eggs. Oh..any case inferior to Russian product? which product? Such is the knowledge ...He should have asked then why Army is ordering more & more of that system.
Islamabad has fielded a French Rasit system since the early 1980s along with the US- supplied AN/ TPQ36, which were used in the Kargil war for tracking Indian mortar and artillery fire.

By contrast, India sought to develop one of its own and actually rejected a US offer for an AN/ TPQ37, a more advanced version of the radar Islamabad had.

This was done at the request of the DRDO, which said it was developing the system. By the time New Delhi realised its mistake, it had come under US sanctions in the wake of the nuclear tests of 1998.

Since then, the US has sold us six of the radars which form the core of the counter- battery systems. According to Kanwal, at least 30 to 40 such radars are required for effective counter- bombardment, especially in the plains.

Only a few have been procured so far.

Nothing good words on the superior nature of our home-grown WLR. Tone of this article says it all. Negative picturisation. One more lifafa.
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Re: Artillery and Armor thread

Post by k prasad »

Kanson wrote:
All this pain and expense had to be borne because of the DRDO- designed Pinaka system, which is in any case inferior to the Russian product.
This gentleman can't stop licking drdo wherever he lay his eggs. Oh..any case inferior to Russian product? which product? Such is the knowledge ...He should have asked then why Army is ordering more & more of that system.
Islamabad has fielded a French Rasit system since the early 1980s along with the US- supplied AN/ TPQ36, which were used in the Kargil war for tracking Indian mortar and artillery fire.

By contrast, India sought to develop one of its own and actually rejected a US offer for an AN/ TPQ37, a more advanced version of the radar Islamabad had.

This was done at the request of the DRDO, which said it was developing the system. By the time New Delhi realised its mistake, it had come under US sanctions in the wake of the nuclear tests of 1998.

Since then, the US has sold us six of the radars which form the core of the counter- battery systems. According to Kanwal, at least 30 to 40 such radars are required for effective counter- bombardment, especially in the plains.

Only a few have been procured so far.

Nothing good words on the superior nature of our home-grown WLR. Tone of this article says it all. Negative picturisation. One more lifafa.
Either the author has no idea about the WLR, or he is doing it with mala fide intentions - both of which are criminal.

He also seems to forget that the rest of the 30-40 WLRs will come from the order of 28 WLRs placed.

I think the WLR must have cleared its last trials in December. Look forward to more news.
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IIT Techfest updates

Post by KBDagha »

Hi Friends,
Attended to IIT Mumbai Techfest. They were displaying:
1. Arjun BLT
2. Brahmos Missile launcher
3. IED Disposal vehicle (Unmanned)
4. Unmanned Ground Vehicle. (VRDE)
5. Armoured carrier
6. VRDE UAV
7. Lakshya
8. Nishant Scaled version
9. Armoured recee vehicle scaled model
10. NBC armoured vehicle (BMP-2) scaled model
11. UAV engines including Venkel engine

Spoke to many scientist who were involved in these projects.
Will post updates on Abhay and Arjun Mk2 shortly. :twisted:
Will upload images of all 11 items listed above. Unfortunately they have clicked from 3.2 Mp mobile camera (Forgot to carry camera :oops: )
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Re: Artillery and Armor thread

Post by K Mehta »

Dagha saab, more than the pics its the bits of info gleaned from such events that is more valuable. Besides 3.2 MP is good enough.
please post whatever you heard from them.
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Arjun Mk2 Updates

Post by KBDagha »

1. Arjun Mk2 version to be fielded in june trials against bhisma.
2. It has new Active thermal imaging system developed indigeneously though range would be same the quality of the image will be better giving it better night fighting capability.
3. Work on indigeneous engine going on well. Currently it has achieved 1300hp but there target is 1500bhp. Still work is required on it. But he sounded very confident it will be done.
4. NERA armoured is confirmed on Mk2 version. Earlier NERA used was of Israeli. But better indigeneous version has been developed and will be fielded on mk2 version onwards.
5. Coperation with Israel on Arjun confirmed. He was all praise for Merkava-4 and its technology. They plan to use same pitch for Arjun that Army might be required to fight in urban environment in future were fear of RPG type weapon is always there.In such scenario better armour is required.
6. When asked about army's acceptance of Mk2 version, he said they are not very enthusiast but some positive response has been received.
7. They are not looking at weight optimisation method.They believe army has to come terms with Heavy MBT as it is need of the armour and make necessary doctriene change. He gave example of Abraham, Challenger, Merkava as against T-72 and T-90.
8. Better version of Kanchan armour has been developed.
9. Instead of using Type E class rubberised module to cover Lahat composite material will be used giving it better preformance.
10. Lahat will be manufactured locally (CLGM).
11. Mk2 version will have all electrical system. He explained in more detail sorry could not recollect.
12. It will not only have smoke grenades but splinters for protection. He gave more detail about one more system could not recollect.
13. Advanced version of BMS will be fielded.
14. He said earlier failure of test was clear case of sabotage. Renk transmission system was tempered with. He was extremely unhappy about it :evil:

Arjun BLT is humongous :shock: :shock: :shock:
Arjun tank can definetely make enemy wet there pants. :rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl:

Abhay ICV
1. Unfortunately it is just Technology demonstrator.
2. They have developed lighter composite armour for this ICV.
3. Its carrying capacity is 11.
4. Target weight is 20ton.
5. I have its broucher for it. Will post it latter.
6. Many of technologies developed will be used for other projects and developed further.
7. It had much better technologies as compared to BMP-2 unfortuantely it did not find favour with army (What's new!!)

Will post more as and when i remember it :D

Note:
All the information is as provided by the senior scientist who has worked more than 10 years on this project.He was extremely polite and helpful, answered all my question.

Regards,
Khambat Dagha.
Neilz
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Re: Arjun Mk2 Updates

Post by Neilz »

^^^^
Next couple of years going to be very prized and memorable for us :) :) :)
Jai ho india......
sum
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Re: Artillery and Armor thread

Post by sum »

6. When asked about army's acceptance of Mk2 version, he said they are not very enthusiast but some positive response has been received.
That one statement should make all the grand plans for the Mk2 useless since there is no point of developing all the hi-fi stuff if there is no one to use them!!
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Re: Artillery and Armor thread

Post by Rahul M »

5. I have its broucher for it. Will post it latter.
now that's a good BRFite ! :)

thanks a lot for the tid-bits ! sum, at the end of the day it's up to the govt.
in every force there are people who will be pro-desi, they need to be identified and listened to.
whatever army says now, arjun is definitely their baby.
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Re: Artillery and Armor thread

Post by KBDagha »

Hi,
Thanks Rahul!
I have loaded pics at Flickr. Following is the link:
http://www.flickr.com/photos/34713843@N06/

Will upload 3 brouchers from VRDE tomorrow.Forgot them in car will get them tomorrow morning. Damn tired traffic arrangement were pathetic today.

Regards,
Khambat Dagha.
sum
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Re: Artillery and Armor thread

Post by sum »

Thanks for the pics, Dagha-ji..
The flick pic captions seem to mention IDE all over the place. Should it be IED detection kit/robot etc instead of IDE?
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Re: Artillery and Armor thread

Post by sunilUpa »

KBDagha wrote:Hi,
Thanks Rahul!
I have loaded pics at Flickr. Following is the link:
http://www.flickr.com/photos/34713843@N06/

Will upload 3 brouchers from VRDE tomorrow.Forgot them in car will get them tomorrow morning. Damn tired traffic arrangement were pathetic today.

Regards,
Khambat Dagha.
Khambat Dagha, Thanks a lot for the info and pictures.

A question to experts..isn't the VRDE Armoured vehicle tad underpowered? 160hp motor for an vehicle weighing 9 T (loaded)?
KBDagha
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Re: Artillery and Armor thread

Post by KBDagha »

:oops: Will make necessary changes! Thank you Sum.
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Re: Artillery and Armor thread

Post by Uri_T »

hello
my name is Uri I am from Israel
I am new here

I served in the IDF in the armor corps

http://idf-armor.blogspot.com/
Last edited by Gerard on 25 Jan 2009 02:31, edited 2 times in total.
Reason: username changed to conform with forum guidelines
Kanson
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Re: Artillery and Armor thread

Post by Kanson »

totach wrote:hello
my name is Uri I am from Israel
I am new here

I served in the IDF in the armor corps
http://idf-armor.blogspot.com/
Hi Uri, Welcome!

1. How IDF/Merkava performed during Cast Lead?

2. What do you think about Arjun MBT?
Uri_T
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Re: Artillery and Armor thread

Post by Uri_T »

Kanson wrote:
totach wrote:hello
my name is Uri I am from Israel
I am new here

I served in the IDF in the armor corps
http://idf-armor.blogspot.com/
Hi Uri, Welcome!

1. How IDF/Merkava performed during Cast Lead?

2. What do you think about Arjun MBT?
hi
The merkava mark 3 and 4 took part in cast lead op in gazza
one brigade cut gazza in two parts and other unit used in urban missions
I know long range targets as snipers were hit

I heard about Arjun MBT but dont have enough inf yet I am looking forward to
get some more inf

I served on a Magach Patton M 60
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Re: Artillery and Armor thread

Post by Vikram_S »

Vikram_S
Man please stop talking in rehtoric.
you are the one stuck to rhetoric. for example see your entire post.

you are stuck on useless track. of blaming army when problem is indian public (including stupid dog like me) and GOI full of nehru idiots.

point is GOI has not found way to deter TSP nuce threat. rest is not useful. if IA attacks TSP and defeats quicker, or later, TSP will use n. GOI does not know what to do and is too stupid (votebank + Gandhi) to use covert war option against PAK MUSLIMS

this is problem not bakra of services.
You are quoting a book.
so that you know about IA CAPABILITY
Book is better than going on about stupid article on internet
since you are not in india you cannot go about interviewing army officer so book is better na?
see page 296 and then other pages after that.

Did you ever think the motive of author. Every writer who writes anything has one of the two motives, either for or against.
first read book and understand what author is doing. he is at basic level collating article telling evolution of indian army. and second it is clear you have not read book especially footnotes.

When Armored Corps officers say, they will not cross international border with Arjun Tank, tells you the story. When COAS says, "we will fight with what we have..." tells you a story.

it says COAS is responding to stupid media and children who are fixed on technology.
Jingoism and blind faith doesn't win war or battles all it does it cost lives of brave young men as it was apparent in Kargil war. When did GOI ever came out with correct stat on casualties, how many of our own froze to death due to lack of clothing, how much of 155 ammo stock we had then, your NDA itself has said,
do not be stupid. GOI does not hide casualties. this is well known fact. do not act like TSP propoganda. go to indianarmy.nic.in site and you will see all indian casualty in different year. even casualty due to traffic accident in parakram is put in op parakram category.

even casualty in operation parakram was well known. about ammunition tell whole forum when AMMO STOCK reserve information of today is known. again think about statement that IA is not asked to make war but just be "Ready" what is that mean? what is that telling you about GOI think behaviour?
Russia, Israel provided us ammo from their own war time stock. Now coming to Op Prakram or whatever it was called. It was diplomatic blunder, a national humiliation that caused the lives of soldiers who died clearning and laying mines. What was achieved from that. All that did was exposed our belly. If we had the capability and resources we would not have capitualted , but NDA did, nonetheless.
it was not my NDA. it was my Govt. it was Govt of my nation. for benefit of less advantaged fellow citizen all Govt have to strike balance between defence and support for economic program. even current GOI has that limitation.

your ignorance about india is also there. it has never been issue about overwhelming pakistan in conventional war. talk to indian officer. that ability is there since year 1988. it is question of facing nuclear war on cities. that is stopping india. no ARMY officer can say situation will not escalate to full nuclear war and end in city destruction. it is not there fault also. but it is most important factor for GOI.

otherwise it is easiest option for india and india politician to declare war.
When our own officers are involved in substituting water for diesel from chandi mandir to srinagar it tells you a story.
it tells me the same about US officers, UK officers and many officers. how many US officer have got kicked out of procurement in different program.
fact is if % wise seen, Indian Army is still most professional and facing possibility that western officer and western family is running from. see IPKF (treatment of indian army) and strength of indian army (loyalty).
Treat these men in uniform like humans don't make them demigods. They have strengths and weaknesses just like everyone. Accept the fact there are alot of problems with our military setup.
We have to fix the problems.
who is the "We"? talk about demigods and humans when you come to india and are part of solution, right now you are just one of many sitting in other country talking of being patriot and giving easy solution. i am indian citizen in india facing problem of terror and also noting that indian armed force are protecting me despite all problems they are having. frankly, being in awareness of them, i am more aware of india problems than you are.
tomorrow i may die in terror attack but problem is simply put of GOI.

i know GOI has failed nation. till now armed services have not failed nation. in 26/11 they again came when GOI has failed.

until GOI says f*** morals and fight to defend india, by covert wAR this problem is continuing.

problem is babus and nehru style idiot behavior. ind-iot is also typical of GOI.
BTW you are entitled to your opinion but learn to accept a dissension. :wink:
apply your own lesson to yourself. i and everyone like me are in threat of life and limb and feel more strongly about our life and limb but we still can hold back our anger and are doing and making effort to think rationally.

you are giving into emotion and rhetoric but GOI will not defend me when i am at risk but services will.
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Re: Artillery and Armor thread

Post by Baljeet »

Vikram_S
.....when problem is indian public (including stupid dog like me) and GOI full of nehru idiots.
You said and I couldn't agree more. I will not reply to your posts anymore.
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Re: Artillery and Armor thread

Post by k prasad »

11. Mk2 version will have all electrical system. He explained in more detail sorry could not recollect.
Would this be the All-Electrical turret and gun traverse??? That was a requirement for the Arjun (MoD report), which the army had said was recommended, but didn't insist on immediately.

If this is true, it is indeed very good news... the only ones I know of which have full electric traverse is the Chally 2 and the Merkava Mk4 (I think)....

Look forward to more info.

1. Btw, do you have any info on the range of the Arjun, any brochures or pics of infoboards??
2. Any info on the engine performance??
3. State of indigenous ammo for Arjun gun?
4. Comparative trials... any inside info??
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Re: Artillery and Armor thread

Post by KBDagha »

Yup! All electric turret was what he was talking about and he did mention about Challenger and Merkava-4. He was very confident on performance of Arjun as compared to T-90. Sorry no brochures from CVRDE only VRDE was distributing them. He said new engine being developed has achieved 1300hp but target is 1500hp. He confirmed Arjun does have APU giving it hunter killer capability and with new engine Arjun will get better performance as it will be lighter and more modern. No AC system being planned for Arjun as Army does not require it. All electronics have been rugidised to prevent their failures due to heat above 55 degree Celcius. Sorry will post brouchers tomorrow.

Regards,
Khambat Dagha.
Rahul M
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Re: Artillery and Armor thread

Post by Rahul M »

@ Uri,
since you have practical experience of armour combat in course of the arab-israeli wars, I would be interested in knowing how you would rate the performance of light tanks that were used in those wars ?

AFAIK light tanks were used on both sides, PT-76 and t-34 on one side and amx-13 and shermann on the other.
thanks in advance.
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Re: Artillery and Armor thread

Post by KrishG »

KBDagha wrote:Yup! All electric turret was what he was talking about and he did mention about Challenger and Merkava-4. He was very confident on performance of Arjun as compared to T-90. Sorry no brochures from CVRDE only VRDE was distributing them. He said new engine being developed has achieved 1300hp but target is 1500hp. He confirmed Arjun does have APU giving it hunter killer capability and with new engine Arjun will get better performance as it will be lighter and more modern. No AC system being planned for Arjun as Army does not require it. All electronics have been rugidised to prevent their failures due to heat above 55 degree Celcius. Sorry will post brouchers tomorrow.

Regards,
Khambat Dagha.
I wanted to know if Arjun Mk-2 will have a auto-loader ??
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Re: Artillery and Armor thread

Post by Uri_T »

Rahul M wrote:@ Uri,
since you have practical experience of armour combat in course of the arab-israeli wars, I would be interested in knowing how you would rate the performance of light tanks that were used in those wars ?

AFAIK light tanks were used on both sides, PT-76 and t-34 on one side and amx-13 and shermann on the other.
thanks in advance.
Hello all
nice to be here

I served on the Magach both M 48 and the M60 my unit was the first to get the Patton
in the Idf before my time
the amx 13 was prior to my time and the IDF was not happy with the light tanks
however the Sherman tank served in 56 67 and 73 wars and was very important
upgraded to super Sherman with 105 mm gun.
I wrote long posts about IDF light tanks in my blog:

http://idf-armor.blogspot.com/
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