Armoured Vehicles Discussion Thread

Locked
Rahul M
Forum Moderator
Posts: 17167
Joined: 17 Aug 2005 21:09
Location: Skies over BRFATA
Contact:

Re: Artillery and Armor thread

Post by Rahul M »

fine uri, I'll take my queries to your blog.
Yogi_G
BRF Oldie
Posts: 2412
Joined: 21 Nov 2008 04:10
Location: Punya Bhoomi -- Jambu Dweepam

Re: Artillery and Armor thread

Post by Yogi_G »

A krish wrote:
KBDagha wrote:Yup! All electric turret was what he was talking about and he did mention about Challenger and Merkava-4. He was very confident on performance of Arjun as compared to T-90. Sorry no brochures from CVRDE only VRDE was distributing them. He said new engine being developed has achieved 1300hp but target is 1500hp. He confirmed Arjun does have APU giving it hunter killer capability and with new engine Arjun will get better performance as it will be lighter and more modern. No AC system being planned for Arjun as Army does not require it. All electronics have been rugidised to prevent their failures due to heat above 55 degree Celcius. Sorry will post brouchers tomorrow.

Regards,
Khambat Dagha.
I wanted to know if Arjun Mk-2 will have a auto-loader ??
Automatic loader will mean that the tank will need one man less for its operation. So a lot of space is saved up. What can this extra space be devoted for or the tank can be modified to do away with this space and hence it becomes smaller. New lighter engine + smaller crew + more compact hull would mean that Arjun can be made quite lighter from its current configuration. Of course the auto loader equipment's weight will need to be taken into consideration....JMT..
Uri_T
BRFite -Trainee
Posts: 34
Joined: 25 Jan 2009 00:15
Location: Haifa Israel
Contact:

Re: Artillery and Armor thread

Post by Uri_T »

I Would like to know if the Indian tank corps ever used western tanks.
second....I know some Patton tanks were captured from Pakistan in the 60 70
were there any use for those tanks?










http://idf-armor.blogspot.com/
KrishG
BR Mainsite Crew
Posts: 1290
Joined: 25 Nov 2008 20:43
Location: Land of Trala-la

Re: Artillery and Armor thread

Post by KrishG »

Uri_T wrote:I Would like to know if the Indian tank corps ever used western tanks.
second....I know some Patton tanks were captured from Pakistan in the 60 70
were there any use for those tanks?
India at present only uses Russian tanks. But the old Vijayanta MBT was a licensed design of the British Vickers Mk-1.

The Arjun-MBT is based on Leopard MBT of Germany and is heavy like western MBTs. We are hearing that Israel is helping in Arjun MBT project with some Merkava-Mk 4 technology.
Anujan
Forum Moderator
Posts: 7806
Joined: 27 May 2007 03:55

Re: Artillery and Armor thread

Post by Anujan »

Uri_T wrote:I Would like to know if the Indian tank corps ever used western tanks.
second....I know some Patton tanks were captured from Pakistan in the 60 70
were there any use for those tanks?
Centurion, M4 Sherman and AMX-13 were used by India during Battle at Khem Karan (Assal Uttar) in '65. India also operated Vijayanta (Indian version of Vickers Mk.1.)
Uri_T
BRFite -Trainee
Posts: 34
Joined: 25 Jan 2009 00:15
Location: Haifa Israel
Contact:

Re: Artillery and Armor thread

Post by Uri_T »

As I see both India an Israel used Centurion amx 13 and Shermans
which in Israel was upgraded so well that it served uo to Yom Kippur war 1973 and up to the early 80
I wrote about it in my blog :http://idf-armor.blogspot.com
narayana
BRFite
Posts: 366
Joined: 27 Jun 2008 12:01

Re: Artillery and Armor thread

Post by narayana »

Did Arjun Tank Take part in R-Day Parade,i saw t-90s but couldnt find arjun,i faintly heard the commentator mentioning it though,DD coverage of RD parade was Sloppy since time immemorial,they show parade a moment and in a second switch cameras to spectators or dignitaries.

if Arjun was not in the parade then there will be very few hopes of its further induction
Yusuf
BRFite
Posts: 164
Joined: 11 Jan 2009 10:03

Re: Artillery and Armor thread

Post by Yusuf »

The IA has shut the lid on Arjun for all practical purpose. So wonder what help the Israelis are going to be. It has also shunned the FMBT of the DRDO. The summer comparative trial is going to be a waste of time.
Baljeet
BRFite
Posts: 410
Joined: 29 May 2007 04:16

Re: Artillery and Armor thread

Post by Baljeet »

Yusuf
I agree, Arjun is as dead as it can be. The best thing for using Arjun will be to mount a 155mm gun with modifications to Arjun Chassis. It may be asking for too much.
sum
BRF Oldie
Posts: 10195
Joined: 08 May 2007 17:04
Location: (IT-vity && DRDO) nagar

Re: Artillery and Armor thread

Post by sum »

The best thing for using Arjun will be to mount a 155mm gun with modifications to Arjun Chassis. It may be asking for too much.
IIRC, we tried even that with the Bhim but the Kangress/Renuka Choudary nixed it. Guess, some people( tanks) are just born unlucky.
Rahul M
Forum Moderator
Posts: 17167
Joined: 17 Aug 2005 21:09
Location: Skies over BRFATA
Contact:

Re: Artillery and Armor thread

Post by Rahul M »

A krish wrote: The Arjun-MBT is based on Leopard MBT of Germany ......
excuse me ? where did you get that ?
KrishG
BR Mainsite Crew
Posts: 1290
Joined: 25 Nov 2008 20:43
Location: Land of Trala-la

Re: Artillery and Armor thread

Post by KrishG »

Yusuf wrote:The IA has shut the lid on Arjun for all practical purpose. So wonder what help the Israelis are going to be. It has also shunned the FMBT of the DRDO. The summer comparative trial is going to be a waste of time.
Well, the makers of Arjun are confident. Let's be optimistic. As of now, we really don't know anything about how Arjun would perform (especially with all this 'sabotage' issue). If Arjun can get get sufficient ToT from Merkava-Mk 4 then the future looks bright.
KrishG
BR Mainsite Crew
Posts: 1290
Joined: 25 Nov 2008 20:43
Location: Land of Trala-la

Re: Artillery and Armor thread

Post by KrishG »

Rahul M wrote:
A krish wrote: The Arjun-MBT is based on Leopard MBT of Germany ......
excuse me ? where did you get that ?
The chassis is quite similar to Leopard-2 and it is official that DRDO received design assistance from Krauss, the developers of the Leopard MBTs.
Rahul M
Forum Moderator
Posts: 17167
Joined: 17 Aug 2005 21:09
Location: Skies over BRFATA
Contact:

Re: Artillery and Armor thread

Post by Rahul M »

and that makes it "based on Leopard MBT" ?? :eek:
I have nothing more to add.
Vick
BRFite
Posts: 753
Joined: 14 Oct 1999 11:31

Re: Artillery and Armor thread

Post by Vick »

Rahul M wrote:and that makes it "based on Leopard MBT" ?? :eek:
I have nothing more to add.
External similarities are strikingly similar though... Aside from using nearly identical powertrain and the same Diehl tracks as the Leo2A4.

Image
Vick
BRFite
Posts: 753
Joined: 14 Oct 1999 11:31

Re: Artillery and Armor thread

Post by Vick »

Just for kicks and giggles, here's a Leo2A4 with 4 tons of applique armor for a total weight of 60 tons. Shows what the Arjun might evolve into once it has some wiggle room with additional horses.

Image
Rahul M
Forum Moderator
Posts: 17167
Joined: 17 Aug 2005 21:09
Location: Skies over BRFATA
Contact:

Re: Artillery and Armor thread

Post by Rahul M »

Vick wrote:External similarities are strikingly similar though... Aside from using nearly identical powertrain and the same Diehl tracks as the Leo2A4.
of course there was some german help involved (as in many other systems of those days) and the proven MTU engine was chosen. leopard 2 influence is definitely there but not as much as to call it "based upon".
different armour, completely different main gun, hydro-pneumatic suspension as against t-bar of the leo, to name but a few.
Baljeet
BRFite
Posts: 410
Joined: 29 May 2007 04:16

Re: Artillery and Armor thread

Post by Baljeet »

sum wrote:
The best thing for using Arjun will be to mount a 155mm gun with modifications to Arjun Chassis. It may be asking for too much.
IIRC, we tried even that with the Bhim but the Kangress/Renuka Choudary nixed it. Guess, some people( tanks) are just born unlucky.
Sum
I don't know how can someone with degree in Industrial Psychology can make military decision. I guess everyone in India is a military strategist, tactician, planner, armament expert etc. I vividly remember when Deve Gow-da (punjabi sarcasm) became a tank expert and demanded the test results.
Yusuf
BRFite
Posts: 164
Joined: 11 Jan 2009 10:03

Re: Artillery and Armor thread

Post by Yusuf »

Baljeet wrote: I vividly remember when Deve Gow-da (punjabi sarcasm) became a tank expert and demanded the test results.
He wanted to know if it was suitable to destroy the NICE led BMIC project.
(For those who dont know, BMIC is an expressway project to link Bangalore to Mysore which Deve Gowda was dead against. Reason? He could not make any money from it as the promoter of NICE wouldnt play ball with him)
k prasad
BRFite
Posts: 962
Joined: 21 Oct 2007 17:38
Location: Somewhere over the Rainbow
Contact:

Re: Artillery and Armor thread

Post by k prasad »

KBDagha wrote:He said new engine being developed has achieved 1300hp but target is 1500hp.
Any idea about the timeline??? Is this the same one taht was being planned a year or so ago?
KBDagha wrote:He confirmed Arjun does have APU giving it hunter killer capability and with new engine Arjun will get better performance as it will be lighter and more modern.
Hunter-killer capability is different - APU allows for silent watch. Hunter killer means we need a CITV, BMS, and networked tank operation. Guess the guy was confused about the term. No worries though.

Any idea on the CITV??
No AC system being planned for Arjun as Army does not require it. All electronics have been rugidised to prevent their failures due to heat above 55 degree Celcius.
And waht about the Human performance at 55 degrees?? typical IA brass thinking!! :x
Rahul M
Forum Moderator
Posts: 17167
Joined: 17 Aug 2005 21:09
Location: Skies over BRFATA
Contact:

Re: Artillery and Armor thread

Post by Rahul M »

And waht about the Human performance at 55 degrees?? typical IA brass thinking!! :x
KP, the plug-in cooling vest is supposed to have improved things a lot.
Anujan
Forum Moderator
Posts: 7806
Joined: 27 May 2007 03:55

Re: Artillery and Armor thread

Post by Anujan »

Rahul M wrote:
And waht about the Human performance at 55 degrees?? typical IA brass thinking!! :x
KP, the plug-in cooling vest is supposed to have improved things a lot.
I remember reading about it in a DRDO publication. Has it been productionized and used ?
ramana
Forum Moderator
Posts: 59773
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30

Re: Artillery and Armor thread

Post by ramana »

I suspect after Brasstacks the Indian poltiicans/babus have decided to ensure that there is no offensive capability with the Indian Army. Every procurement gets delayed or scrapped with bribe allegations. And Indian Army doesnt help itself by its penchant for brochuritis. Dont knwo how th elog jam will be borken.

Right now IA cant fight offensive actions due to nuke scenario and weapons incapability and rejects all chances of getting somewhere. the pols and abus are happy at this self negation for they can then blame the Army for inaction as was seen after Mumbai. BTW same thisn happened after Lok Sabha attack. Kargil response was an abberration. And even there the IAF took two weeks to get ready in case of an escalation. Meantime the jawans got killed in droves with IA leaders taking of regimental izzat and what not.
Sanjay M
BRF Oldie
Posts: 4892
Joined: 02 Nov 2005 14:57

Re: Artillery and Armor thread

Post by Sanjay M »

Has anybody heard of this new DIME weapon?
What kind of scenarios is it best suited to be used in?
For precision strikes in populated areas?

Dense Inert Metal Explosive

http://blog.wired.com/defense/2009/01/m ... eapon.html

The weapons originated as an offshoot of a bunker-busting program, when it was found that adding tungsten powder to explosives seemed to increase the blast effect over a small area. The powder was acting as micro-shrapnel which only carries for a few feet (compared to hundreds of feet for larger fragments), so the result was dubbed the "focused lethality munition" (FLM) which does massive damage in a small area and nothing outside.

There are a large number of reports from Gaza that suggest this type of weapon has been used, and, unfortunately, caused civilian deaths. There are reports and pictures of victims peppered with small particles, and descriptions which are consistent with very localized blast.

During Noah's trip to Israel, he saw drone footage of an extremely small weapon hitting a car. When it struck — on a road, cutting through a Gaza cemetery — the car didn't go up in a ball of flames. Its roof caved in, with a puff of smoke. The back doors were blown out; the front doors stayed shut.

Erik Fosse, a Norwegian doctor working in Gaza says that the weapon "causes the tissue to be torn from the flesh. It looks very different [from a shrapnel injury]. I have seen and treated a lot of different injuries for the last 30 years in different war zones, and this looks completely different."

According to Fosse and his colleague Gilbert Mads, the weapon typically amputates or tears apart lower limbs and patients often do not survive. It's no more illegal than normal blast-and-shrapnel weapons, but it is a mystery.
krishnan
BRF Oldie
Posts: 7342
Joined: 07 Oct 2005 12:58
Location: 13° 04' N , 80° 17' E

Re: Artillery and Armor thread

Post by krishnan »

k prasad wrote:Hunter-killer capability is different - APU allows for silent watch. Hunter killer means we need a CITV, BMS, and networked tank operation. Guess the guy was confused about the term. No worries though.
Isn't APU an important component in making it HK.
Singha
BRF Oldie
Posts: 66601
Joined: 13 Aug 2004 19:42
Location: the grasshopper lies heavy

Re: Artillery and Armor thread

Post by Singha »

APU saves fuel when standing on sentry duty thats all. the main engine can be shut down but turret and all electronics is operational. the AC can
also be run in desert heat :mrgreen:

hunter-killer is a functionality where both commander and gunner typically
have TI sights and a unified targeting system such that commander can spot and designate the next target while the gunner "lays" gun on current target and shoots, before smoothly "laying" on the next target pre designated by the commander. tactical data could be received by BMS perhaps so that all gunners+commanders "see" the same digital battlefield on separate LCD or overlay while retaining their individual TI sight views.
bhart
BRFite -Trainee
Posts: 41
Joined: 22 May 2002 11:31
Location: New Delhi
Contact:

Re: Artillery and Armor thread

Post by bhart »

I remember reading a long time ago that Krauss-Maffei was a consultant for the Arjun Project. Don't ask me for the source, I don't remember exactly which book/publication it was.
Philip
BRF Oldie
Posts: 21538
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30
Location: India

Re: Artillery and Armor thread

Post by Philip »

Thanks for the pic Vik.It's what I was referring to in an earlier post,about the shaping (arrowhead design) of the later Leopards with what they call "modular armour",that has been designed to deter top attack,IEDs and the usual variety of anti-tank porojectiles.Some quarters have critised Arjun's turret design as belonging to earlier turret concepts.
Vivek K
BRF Oldie
Posts: 2931
Joined: 15 Mar 2002 12:31

Re: Artillery and Armor thread

Post by Vivek K »

Philip, did the army specifically require this turret? And can it not be added to a later derivative? Did you see the pics of T-90 blow-ups in pics when Russia attacked Georgia? Evidently no one of the crew survived.
Last edited by Vivek K on 29 Jan 2009 23:52, edited 1 time in total.
Rahul M
Forum Moderator
Posts: 17167
Joined: 17 Aug 2005 21:09
Location: Skies over BRFATA
Contact:

Re: Artillery and Armor thread

Post by Rahul M »

army took a deliberate decision not to go with slanted armour in order to preserve internal space and hence crew comfort.
andy B
BRFite
Posts: 1676
Joined: 05 Jun 2008 11:03
Location: Gora Paki

Re: Artillery and Armor thread

Post by andy B »

Gents any idea on what the next set of T-90s are gonna sport???

Chorgupta on his website has had a wet dream abt what the new batch of T-90s will come equipped with, very very usure abt that info :roll:
http://**************/
Rahul M wrote:army took a deliberate decision not to go with slanted armour in order to preserve internal space and hence crew comfort.
Looking at the way the additional applique armor was applied to the Leopard I am sure the DRDO can do the same without too many complicated modifications.
uddu
BRF Oldie
Posts: 2091
Joined: 15 Aug 2004 17:09

Re: Artillery and Armor thread

Post by uddu »

Vivek K wrote:Philip, did the army specifically require this turret? And can it not be added to a later derivative? Did you see the pics of T-90 blow-ups in pics when Russia attacked Georgia? Evidently no one of the crew survived.
Such harsh words can make Philiphosky faint.

Some pictures of the T disaster was found on this blog but cannot identify the T-90.
Blog link

Some T-72's
Link
kidoman
BRFite
Posts: 108
Joined: 07 May 2008 09:55
Location: Temple City,Kalinga
Contact:

Re: Artillery and Armor thread

Post by kidoman »

andy B wrote:Gents any idea on what the next set of T-90s are gonna sport???

Chorgupta on his website has had a wet dream abt what the new batch of T-90s will come equipped with, very very usure abt that info :roll:
http://**************/
Is this true??
Next batch of T-90's will T-90M's which will be 50% more capable?

P.s:From where does he gets such detailed information? :roll: :roll: :roll:
Philip
BRF Oldie
Posts: 21538
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30
Location: India

Re: Artillery and Armor thread

Post by Philip »

"Faint hearts never won fair ladies"! As a veteran ladies man...and there's safety in large numbers of tanks,which seems to have been the Russian philosophy,I dare say that the Russkies are still chewing on the Chechenya lessons.There's this Russian story about a grandson who fought in Chechenya back home talking to his grandfather who fought in the Great Patriotic War (WW2)."Ivan,what did you learn from fighting in Chechenya?",asked the old man."Grandfather,I learnt that tanks could fly!"

I think that the next Russian turretless FBMT,the one with the 155mm gun,with special armoured crew compartments sepaarte from the magazine ,will provide the crew with a smaller insurance premium to pay.A smaller three crew tank with an auto-loader to me is far more suitable than a larger costlier tank with a 4-man crew.What the DRDO should've done instead of wasting their money on Tank-Ex (which nobody wants and if the IA does not want any,which foreign customer will buy it?) ,was to have swiftly engineered an Arjun-2 with various improvements as has been done on the Leopard variants.There was ample time to have done so.
vina
BRF Oldie
Posts: 6046
Joined: 11 May 2005 06:56
Location: Doing Nijikaran, Udharikaran and Baazarikaran to Commies and Assorted Leftists

Re: Artillery and Armor thread

Post by vina »

Come on Philip. Come off it. The Indian Army knew very well back from the IPKF in Sri Lanka days that T-72s fly. Nothing new to learn there.

As for making Arjun II or anything, it is rubbish. The DRDO is just wasting time with the Army. Just pull the plug on ALL army projects and let them go to the Russkies. The army and the russians deserve each other. I think that is a lesson that all prospective vendors for the Army will learn very soon. Look at that fiasco for the new Army Jeep !. That circus will go on for another 20 years, until some Natashas jump in and import something from Russia and license assembled in a multi billion dollar deal here in some OFB. Problem is the Russians dont have a half way decent jeep.. :roll: :roll:

And as for the idiocy of the Navy with Gorshkov, I have no words for that. It stinks. If the Navy guys had put that money in the IAC, it would be in the water by now. Oh, no, the Navy in all it's wisdom had to go and buy a burnt out rusting hulk and tell people that it got a "rose" on the "cheap". Problem is,i is not rose (but garbage) and cheap it definitely aint (running into atleast $3b now)
rkhanna
BRFite
Posts: 1170
Joined: 02 Jul 2006 02:35

Re: Artillery and Armor thread

Post by rkhanna »

Is this true??
Next batch of T-90's will T-90M's which will be 50% more capable?
According to some Russian Def Forums the T-90S "K-5" ERA Armour is already outdated the any T-90Ms with the Russians are being fielded with new armour which is far superior.

Anybody got anything on that?

Also what about the SelfDefence Suit? We going to stick with Russian or Go Israeli/BAE
Philip
BRF Oldie
Posts: 21538
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30
Location: India

Re: Artillery and Armor thread

Post by Philip »

Well Vina,if the DRDO takes three decades to build a turkey,that too only partly indigenous with a foreign engine,don't blame the Army.Blame the masters in control of the defence establishment for their indifference to defence matters.There is a mountain of material available on how the red tape in the MOD is stifling both indigenous R&D as well as foreign orders.In fact the Gorshkov decision took about 5 years to fructify and had the Rao govt (which never ordered a single warship or sub) got its act together in the so-called "lost decade",the successor carriers to the Vikrant and the Viraat would be in service right now.As for decision making,did not the Hawk AJT decision also take 20+ years? The T-90 acquisition was a kneejerk urgent acquisition because of Pak's savvy in acquiring hundreds of T-80s from the Ukraine after the collapse of the Sov.Union.Had Arjun been available at that time perhaps the need for an imported tank would not have arisen.
Surya
BRF Oldie
Posts: 5034
Joined: 05 Mar 2001 12:31

Re: Artillery and Armor thread

Post by Surya »

Whats wrong with these T can supporters.

Here is a tank which blows up like a can and they are pinning their hopes on another tank which will be smaller with the prayer that it will be shot at and missed !!!!! :eek:

What sort of crazed logic is that??

Even the Gaza ops where the huge Merkava 4s and Achzarit pretty much absorbed the urban IEDs has not opened these folks eyes.

And now we have a picture of a bruteful looking Leopard 2.

and they still want puny future russian wet dreams.


And then the merry go round starts - DRDO took million years to make this tank.
ajay_ijn
BRFite
Posts: 318
Joined: 30 Aug 2007 20:43

Re: Artillery and Armor thread

Post by ajay_ijn »

kidoman wrote:
andy B wrote:Gents any idea on what the next set of T-90s are gonna sport???

Chorgupta on his website has had a wet dream abt what the new batch of T-90s will come equipped with, very very usure abt that info :roll:
http://**************/
Is this true??
Next batch of T-90's will T-90M's which will be 50% more capable?

P.s:From where does he gets such detailed information? :roll: :roll: :roll:
Sengupta claims
The T-90M is a radically upgraded variant of the existing T-90S ‘Bhishma’ MBT, and is 1.5 times more capable than the T-90S.
but BR says
The T-90S [Improved] is the export version of the Russian T-90M and features a welded turret, the V-92S2 engine and an ESSA thermal viewer.
Uri_T
BRFite -Trainee
Posts: 34
Joined: 25 Jan 2009 00:15
Location: Haifa Israel
Contact:

Re: Artillery and Armor thread

Post by Uri_T »

Way some members here are not happy with the Arjun tank?










http://idf-armor.blogspot.com/
Locked