LCA news and discussion

Jay
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Re: LCA news and discussion

Postby Jay » 18 Mar 2009 04:02

Wickberg wrote:
Bill Sweetman is´nt exactly the most reliable source you can rely on. Gripen NG will have a Swedish AESA radar and the Gripen Demo will have a AESA radar that is partially french.


All right Gripen fanboy, truth comes out and excuses galore? The key is, 'Gripen will have', but it doesn't as of now, when will that be 2020, also will it be an totally indegenious effort? Also if Gripen is such a super duper fighter how come it sold less then 10 aircrafts to the worlds airforces?


Wickberg wrote:LCA was meant to replace to old MiG21s starting in the mid 1990s, everyone knows this even if some here refuse to phase the facts.

It was meant to replace the migs by mid 90s in the initial study's by the IAF, not by any designers of the plane and please care to show the facts.

[/quote] Tell me, if LCA is such an success why you had to buy Mirage 2000s and have this MRCA deal now?[/quote]

Because like Sweden, we do not have nor need a sugar daddy to take care of our ass.

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Re: LCA news and discussion

Postby shiv » 18 Mar 2009 06:59

Why is the Gripen being discussed on the LCA thread in a "mine is bigger" manner?

There is a separate MRCA thread for that.

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Re: LCA news and discussion

Postby Kersi D » 18 Mar 2009 15:27

Jay wrote:
Bill Sweetman is´nt exactly the most reliable source......

Also if Gripen is such a super duper fighter how come it sold less then 10 aircrafts to the worlds airforces?

Wickberg wrote:
It was meant to replace the migs by mid 90s in the initial study's by the IAF, not by any designers of the plane and please care to show the facts.



I think there are already "more than 10" Gripens outside Sweden. Gripen has been bought by South Africa, Hungary, Czech and last year by Thailand. And Remember Thailand is a F 16 operator.

Where is Typhhon ? Except the 72 sold to Saudi and a hand full sold to Austria who else uses Typhoon ?

K

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Re: LCA news and discussion

Postby Austin » 18 Mar 2009 17:35

Kersi D wrote:Where is Typhhon ? Except the 72 sold to Saudi and a hand full sold to Austria who else uses Typhoon ?

K


Kersi what about the different host nations who use it UK , Germany ,Italy ,Spain

There is no question that Typhoon is a good aircraft , but its designed for Air Superiority , considering we do have MKI in that role , do we need another Air Superiority aircraft , or more of a strike aircraft with good air defence role ?

If ADA chooses EJ200 for Tejas then Typhoon has a edge because there is good amount of saving in logistics and numbers if you end up having a common engine for two types in service.

But my personal opinion is , since MMRCA is more to make up for depleting squadron strength , it is good to go for an aircraft which is good enough for the role of Strike and Airdefence , than go for absolute best in one of these role.

Something which does both and is cost effective and we dont have to spend a couple of billions to build its infra and logistic facility ( which is a hidden cost something MMRCA deal will not reflect )

The Mig-35 fits the bill quite well , it perhaps is the most costeffective and Mig will be more than happy to let us the complete TOT and Integrate Indian/Foreign systems with no strings attached.

Infact with its fortune declining you can demand what ever you want from them and they will be more than happy and ready to oblige , and why not MMRCA will give the company another lease of life.

The platform itself is quite capable and with good avionics and weapon system suite it is a good match both in strike and air defence against all the MMRCA contenders atleast it can hold its own against all of them, besides its 3D TVC gives it an edge in WVR fights.

The rest of the money is better spend in building other part of matrix like netcentricity , modernising ADGES , funding modernisation of other aircraft in our inventory , funding more of Tejas Mk2 and more housing and other facility for IAF personal and family.

If the IAF demanded for Mirages post kargil to fill up squadron strength and the same demand is now converted to MMRCA for multivendor competition , I see no reason why a Mig-35 will not be capable of doing the same task in a cost effective way .

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Re: LCA news and discussion

Postby k prasad » 18 Mar 2009 17:38

Wickberg wrote:I´ll get you loud and clear. Maybe I exaggerated the cries of some LCA fanboys but to cut to the core. Bill Sweetman is´nt exactly the most reliable source you can rely on. Gripen NG will have a Swedish AESA radar and the Gripen Demo will have a AESA radar that is partially french.


That is quite a remarkable thing to say wick... I know you love the Gripen, and jump to its defence on every thread here. However, Sweetman spoke at the Seminar (a plenary speaker), and was exceptionally well recieved - I have posted his views in the AI thread. Even AM Rajkumar was chatting up with him - apparently, his writings were extensively read up by the LCA designers. I'd say that Sweetman is far from a pushover or someone we can ignore .

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Re: LCA news and discussion

Postby NRao » 19 Mar 2009 00:04

When did Sweetman come into the picture - an approx year perhaps?

The LCA was conceived to deal with the F-16C in particular. It went through changes at later dates.

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Re: LCA news and discussion

Postby SaiK » 19 Mar 2009 00:06

in the mrca thread, rafale supporters are claiming its rcs to be 1/10th of m2k., now we are keeping m2k as the baseline, and kept lca at 1/3rd of m2k. our composite use is equal or better than rafale, and in addition our y duct decreases rcs further, comparing with more visible rafale. if the engines of LCA also produces similar IR signature as the rest, why is that 1/3rd value? is this a chankiyan value or something we would only reveal when couple of squadrons beat the hell outta pakis.

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Re: LCA news and discussion

Postby k prasad » 19 Mar 2009 13:04

NRao wrote:When did Sweetman come into the picture - an approx year perhaps?

The LCA was conceived to deal with the F-16C in particular. It went through changes at later dates.


NO idea on the exact date NRao.... but when I was chatting up with Sweetman, AM Rajkumar came and spoke to him, and presented a copy of his book. He told Sweetman that, "You have really got some excellent views - we and the ADA team used to read a lot of your writings and papers during LCA development".

Hope that shone some light - Sweetman wasnt directly involved at all, given that him and Rajkumar had only a passing acquaintance (more of mutual recognition). However, I think his pieces have been lapped up by our designers.

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Re: LCA news and discussion

Postby Wickberg » 19 Mar 2009 18:20

Kartik wrote:
in which case, I'd like to see a more reliable source that confirms that the Gripen NG will have the NORA and not any other radar. even then, the NORA currently has Raytheon Tx/Rx modules- are they going to be Swedish in the future ? if so, please provide a source.


This IS in fact a LCA thread so I won´t talk about the Gripen anymore after this post. If you want sources on which radar the next generation Gripen will use just surf the SAAB homepage. SAAB purchased Ericsson in the 90´s and they have been making radars for over 50 years. If they collaborate with foreign companies to get the best cost effective solution and on schedule - then good for them, and the Swedish tax payers. I think India could do the same since if you don´t wanna see results like the Kaveri, LCA or that main battle tank you have been working on since the 1970s....

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Re: LCA news and discussion

Postby Sanju » 19 Mar 2009 18:50

I think India could do the same since if you don´t wanna see results like the Kaveri, LCA or that main battle tank you have been working on since the 1970s....


Wickberg,

That is a flame bait. There was no need for it. This is the LCA thread and please keep the Arjun out of it. Forums are meant to inform and educate not to be childish and delusional.

Cheers,
S

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Re: LCA news and discussion

Postby SaiK » 19 Mar 2009 18:53

On the contrary, imho, every Indian is extremely satisfied with Kaveri, LCA, and Arjun.. If you care to dig into details, and provide the necessary info rather chase after DDM stories, it would be helpful.

There are certain things, beyond the comprehension .. that is hidden in these program. No amount of external marketing and our forces buying can get that homegrown feeling!. LCA is fantastic program, and so is Kaveri and Arjun.

Care must be taken not to insult a son in front of his father.. these programs are our babies.

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Re: LCA news and discussion

Postby sam_kamath » 19 Mar 2009 19:02

guys guys....hold on ...
all said and done... who has the money ...India has the money... what are we comparing...best aircrafts to meet our needs ...so if a gripen says hey look we are better than your lousy LCA... we say oh ok :-)....what we understand is they are not comparing themselves with the eurofighter or the rafeal or SH...

so in short the gripen is a great plane thank you ... but no thank you...

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Re: LCA news and discussion

Postby Drevin » 19 Mar 2009 20:10

:mrgreen:

sam .... thoroughly enjoyed your post. made my day.

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Re: LCA news and discussion

Postby k prasad » 19 Mar 2009 20:21

check my post on Gripen from AI... the Gripen people are indeed very very scared about the Tejas competing with Gripen will disadvantage them in the MMRCA... its a strong, unsaid feeling. so for all that wickberg is saying, his own co. acknowledges that LCA will steal its glory...

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Re: LCA news and discussion

Postby shiv » 19 Mar 2009 20:38

Wickberg wrote: if you don´t wanna see results like the Kaveri, LCA or that main battle tank you have been working on since the 1970s....


Jo Lahore mein g**** woh Peshawar mein bhi g**** :roll:

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Re: LCA news and discussion

Postby KrishG » 19 Mar 2009 20:46

k prasad wrote:check my post on Gripen from AI... the Gripen people are indeed very very scared about the Tejas competing with Gripen will disadvantage them in the MMRCA... its a strong, unsaid feeling. so for all that wickberg is saying, his own co. acknowledges that LCA will steal its glory...


One thing about Gripen I came to know about was that it could land on conventional highways for quick refueling and rearming. Can Tejas do this ?? (of course keeping the pretty bad situation of Indian highways out of question)

What does landing on conventional roads take?? STOL, small size.......

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Re: LCA news and discussion

Postby Jay » 19 Mar 2009 20:51

shiv wrote:
Wickberg wrote: if you don´t wanna see results like the Kaveri, LCA or that main battle tank you have been working on since the 1970s....


Jo Lahore mein g**** woh Peshawar mein bhi g**** :roll:


aur Sweden mein bhi g****

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Re: LCA news and discussion

Postby Kailash » 19 Mar 2009 21:02

guys, provide Wick with the translations so that he may also be able to enjoy...

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Re: LCA news and discussion

Postby SaiK » 19 Mar 2009 21:49

aur yehan bhi .. :mrgreen:

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Re: LCA news and discussion

Postby Prem » 19 Mar 2009 23:09

Kailash wrote:guys, provide Wick with the translations so that he may also be able to enjoy...


Javla Wick
Nu hol schaften
Tuck but Inte tuck.
:mrgreen:

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Re: LCA news and discussion

Postby karan_mc » 19 Mar 2009 23:44

A krish wrote:
k prasad wrote:check my post on Gripen from AI... the Gripen people are indeed very very scared about the Tejas competing with Gripen will disadvantage them in the MMRCA... its a strong, unsaid feeling. so for all that wickberg is saying, his own co. acknowledges that LCA will steal its glory...


One thing about Gripen I came to know about was that it could land on conventional highways for quick refueling and rearming. Can Tejas do this ?? (of course keeping the pretty bad situation of Indian highways out of question)

What does landing on conventional roads take?? STOL, small size.......



most (Medium class) aircrafts can land on highways ,Pokistan air force have done it in past using mirage-III and A-5 so did Taiwan F-16/ Mirage 2000-5 / IDF F-CK-1B ,so can Tejas ,but this is mostly done by small countries having very few airbase to land if there are (Airbase) targeted as a emergency measure

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Re: LCA news and discussion

Postby shiv » 20 Mar 2009 08:33

I think the important point to remember is that a runway for fighter aircraft is also a road - but that road is straight and rarely extends beyond 3 km. In other words runways are dwarf roads. Ok there is some strengthening and all - but ultimately a runway is a road onlee. So if you have a long enough stretch of road and remove all vehicles, cows and gaadiwalas a plane can land and take off from the road.

It is the off road facilities that make a difference. Last time I checked roadside petrol pumps and dhaabas were unhelpful for fighters. But an aircraft runway is totally useless for getting from city to city in a car and has no dhaabas. Only planes and pilots seem to like these places.

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Re: LCA news and discussion

Postby sum » 20 Mar 2009 09:08

It is the off road facilities that make a difference. Last time I checked roadside petrol pumps and dhaabas were unhelpful for fighters. But an aircraft runway is totally useless for getting from city to city in a car and has no dhaabas. Only planes and pilots seem to like these places.

:rotfl:

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Re: LCA news and discussion

Postby wig » 20 Mar 2009 10:29

shiv ji,
wonderful the last para on roads airstrips and dhabas and the local chowki police man flagging down commercial aircraf err trucks for the hafta!

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Re: LCA news and discussion

Postby Raj Malhotra » 20 Mar 2009 13:51

I think that ADA should try to convince navy to order Naval trainer LCA or its version as Naval AJT

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Re: LCA news and discussion

Postby ramana » 21 Mar 2009 02:48

Raj, It wont be cost effective for an AJT but a naval Trainer of the LCA as a conversion aircraft is a must.

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Re: LCA news and discussion

Postby NRao » 21 Mar 2009 03:33

The Swedish Air Force has been doing it since the 1930's, and still like it Quote - We like it, in part, because if you do have the space to spread out, dispersal and mobility is a more cost effective solution for protecting your aircraft and their ability fo fly missions than hardened shelters. It also gives the air force the capability to concentrate forces in different directions without overcrowding, as the bases together have the capability to handle more aircraft than the air force owns. It should be noted that in our case, "dispersed basing" is and has not been a question of relocating off the ordinary bases when they've been subjected to attack, the dispersed bases are the main bases, with the wings' ordinary location mainly being peace time training establishements.

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Re: LCA news and discussion

Postby k prasad » 21 Mar 2009 13:14

NO MORE GRIPEN PLEASE!!!! Move to MMRCA thread....

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Re: LCA news and discussion

Postby Raj Malhotra » 22 Mar 2009 22:02

Once upon a time there was some talk of indigenous ejection seat but there is no reference to the same nowdays. Is there going to be an indigenous ejection seat for LCA etc?

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Re: LCA news and discussion

Postby jaladipc » 24 Mar 2009 08:07

SaiK wrote:in the mrca thread, rafale supporters are claiming its rcs to be 1/10th of m2k., now we are keeping m2k as the baseline, and kept lca at 1/3rd of m2k. our composite use is equal or better than rafale, and in addition our y duct decreases rcs further, comparing with more visible rafale. if the engines of LCA also produces similar IR signature as the rest, why is that 1/3rd value? is this a chankiyan value or something we would only reveal when couple of squadrons beat the hell outta pakis.


U got the bull-eye.Its wont be the porki who is goint to take the pain.Its their hearty masters.
LCA will be featured with many other stuff as part of its MK-II program.when a new radar paint and new stealthy features like cockpit stealth and EM stealth will be applied.This new EM stealth is currently undergoing development stage and the jingos says it will be ready by the time MK-II breaths the fresh air at 10+km altitude.A new IR suppressor is on the table as well.Its all looks like jingo`s doing rehearsals for MCA/FGFA.

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Re: LCA news and discussion

Postby ramana » 25 Mar 2009 22:51

k prasad wrote:NO MORE GRIPEN PLEASE!!!! Move to MMRCA thread....



You might as well said "no more griping" in LCA thread!

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Re: LCA news and discussion

Postby SaiK » 26 Mar 2009 00:02

Raj Malhotra wrote:Once upon a time there was some talk of indigenous ejection seat but there is no reference to the same nowdays. Is there going to be an indigenous ejection seat for LCA etc?

IIRC, it was under certification process. Perhaps certified by now.. IMHO, what is more important is getting (just going by the amrikhan clout with upavasis et al, especially with a noodle that st(r)ings us), its better to plan everything in tranches.

Beating any firang supplier, with our Armed forces means, we have something that even the khans don't have. Either we have a magical a/c that nobody knows whats in but just delivers what they ask for.. and keep delivering whenever SQRs keep changing without having to change anything 'cause we have over done it!..

Stealth begins not just for the product, but the product development as well! :wink:

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Re: LCA news and discussion

Postby Anurag » 26 Mar 2009 03:25

Great LCA program. Can't believe this was missed!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sFjhpMSV ... -fresh+div

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Re: LCA news and discussion

Postby Jay » 26 Mar 2009 03:29

Anurag wrote:Great LCA program. Can't believe this was missed!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sFjhpMSV ... -fresh+div


No, we didn't. The link was posted on BR few weeks ago.

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Re: LCA news and discussion

Postby KrishG » 29 Mar 2009 00:36

Guys, I had been looking for for almost an year and know thanks Shiv I found his video of Tejas doing a complete 360 degree turn during Aero India 09



The recorded time for a 360 degree turn is about 28-29 secs. Can we expect Tejas's max capability to be around 20 secs for full 360 degree turn ??
Really, what rate of turn can we expect for aircraft with very low wing-loading ??

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Re: LCA news and discussion

Postby Baljeet » 29 Mar 2009 21:00

Raj Malhotra wrote:Once upon a time there was some talk of indigenous ejection seat but there is no reference to the same nowdays. Is there going to be an indigenous ejection seat for LCA etc?

Raj
Last report I read on that was, DRDO designed a zero-zero ejection seat tech, that was shared with martin baker. MB tested it and found indian design worthy enough to be incorporated in their ejection seats.

You can read here

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Re: LCA news and discussion

Postby sum » 29 Mar 2009 21:05

Ummm... why would we want to share tech with MB instead of deploying the system on our plane?

Does it mean that the LCA has DRDO designed but MB made ejection system? :-?

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Re: LCA news and discussion

Postby Baljeet » 29 Mar 2009 21:12

SUM
that is correct. We can't manufacture everything. Somethings are better manufactured by established companies, we can still make money from royalties, IPR etc.

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Re: LCA news and discussion

Postby sum » 29 Mar 2009 21:34

That actually seems like a win-win situation given the manufacturing/finishing woes (esp the OFB) our defence related agencies face...

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Re: LCA news and discussion

Postby rohitvats » 29 Mar 2009 23:04

As my earlier request seeking permission for posting from AM Philip Rajkumar's book on LCA was answered neither in affirmative or otherwise, I'm taking the risk of posting excerpts from his book. Mods, please advise if this violates the copyright.Here we go:

The LCA story actually began in the late 1970s. ACM IH Latif was the CAS from 1978 to 1981. He was unhappy with the in service performance of the HAL upgraded Gnat, the Ajeet fighter. The a/c had severe limitations of payload, range and serviceability and did not fit into the planned re-equipment of the IAF fighter fleet.He was also aware to phase out some of the earlier versions of the Mig-21 in the mid 90s. He therefore asked HAL to design a relatively low cost replacement for the Ajeet and Mig-21


The planners at the AHQ got to work and issued an Air Staff Target (AST) for a cost effective replacement for the Ajeet and the Mig-21.The aeronautical engineers and scientists did not agree with the approach and wanted to bridge the technological gap that had opened up between the advanced countries and India since the Marut (HF-24) programme of the 1960s. They wanted the aircraft to have four crucial new technologies which were the FBW-FCS, a glass cockpit, composite materials in the airframe and micro processors controlled general systems. They also decided to develop the jet engine to power the LCA as well as the MMR which would be the primary sensor abroad the a/c. The seeds for protracted programme delays and cost overruns were sown by these decisions. the IAF not wanting to sound overtly pessimistic went along with these ideas and took the 1st step of issuing an AST for a multi role fighter while expressing serious reservations about development schedule.


Goverenment saction as received in 1986 to build 5 prototypes at an estimated cost of about 575crores. Choosing a foreign collaborator proved to be difficult and hectic negotiations were conducted all through 1986. Finally, Dassualt Aviation of France was chosen to provide the nevessary inputs for the Project Definition Phase (PDP). 500 HAL design Bereau were deputed to ADA for PDP. A dozen aeronautical engineers from Dassault came to Bangalore in 1987 and got down to work. As all this activity was going on, debate began on the choice of the technologies. The most crucial technology and expertise Indian engineers were interested in, was the FBW-FCS. There was school of thought which said the American FBW-FCS was the best and the LCA should have nothing less. Another pov, supported by IAF, was that USA was an unreliable source of technology, given its penchant for imposing sanctions. European technology, though not quite up to US standards was far more reliable and therefore India should go for European FCS for LCA.


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