LCA news and discussion

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Sriman
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Re: LCA news and discussion

Post by Sriman »

Great stuff Pavel, thanks.
sum
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Re: LCA news and discussion

Post by sum »

Any news on the "advanced" bombing/weaponisation trials which were to be done after AI-09?
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Re: LCA news and discussion

Post by Dhanush »

sum wrote:Any news on the "advanced" bombing/weaponisation trials which were to be done after AI-09?
Wasn't MMR pre-requisite for these trials?

Btw, the delay with PV-5 and LSP-3 makes me uneasy.
HariC
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Re: LCA news and discussion

Post by HariC »

Michelle Bivotti wrote:
I´ll provide the poster for free. No need to pay for it ;-) But if you want to help me, spread link to michellebivotti.com please:)
here is photo from poster which I´ll will share, hope that you will like it and send me an e-mail when you have it printed and on the wall =)
poster preview: http://www.michellebivotti.com/images/temp/poster.jpg
I´ll get back in few days with the download link.
Pavel
http://www.michellebivotti.com
wow Pavel, very gracious of you. Ofcourse - I will do whatever I can. Thank you in advance.
George J
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Re: LCA news and discussion

Post by George J »

Pavel,
The Tejas will have an ECS scoop ahead of the tail as standard so your spectacular images are based on the TD not the production variant. Also you might want to check the scaling of the R-73 missile.

Here is Kedar's excellent shot of both the ECS and the missile.

http://www.bharat-rakshak.com/media/Aer ... i.jpg.html
Michelle Bivotti
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Re: LCA news and discussion

Post by Michelle Bivotti »

Finaly:
HAL TEJAS POSTER DOWNLOAD:

http://www.cgarena.com/freestuff/tutori ... raft5.html

On this page scroll down and there is a link to download zip file with poster. It is 200MB tif file ready for print. If someone will print it and place it somewhere, please send me a photo on my e-mail. I´m curious where it will get:)

GeorgeJ: Thank you, it would be great to have all this images as reference when I was been modeling it. I had only a few photos so some parts are inacurate.

Pavel
http://www.michellebivotti.com
vijyeta
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Re: LCA news and discussion

Post by vijyeta »

What is the orange thing above the exhaust?

Wait - it must be the rear-facing radar :lol:
negi
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Re: LCA news and discussion

Post by negi »

That imo is a cap for the 'drag chute' container.
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Re: LCA news and discussion

Post by Jagan »

Michelle Bivotti wrote:Finaly:
HAL TEJAS POSTER DOWNLOAD:

http://www.cgarena.com/freestuff/tutori ... raft5.html

On this page scroll down and there is a link to download zip file with poster. It is 200MB tif file ready for print. If someone will print it and place it somewhere, please send me a photo on my e-mail. I´m curious where it will get:)

GeorgeJ: Thank you, it would be great to have all this images as reference when I was been modeling it. I had only a few photos so some parts are inacurate.

Pavel
http://www.michellebivotti.com

Pavel, Thank you. I will spread the word! Hope other members will do the same as well.

Others - I just downloaded and can stare at wonder at this 9000 x 7000 px wide poster - Great for a 36x24 inch print at 300dpi.

-Jagan
vivek_ahuja
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Re: LCA news and discussion

Post by vivek_ahuja »

I think you guys might like this:

Long time ago one of the BR adminullahs had asked me to look into doing an aircraft analysis of the LCA versus other aircraft. The idea was to use one of my aircraft design software to do a comprehensive analysis of the flight characteristics of the aircraft as best possible from information in the public domain. It took extensive amount of time to get my software ready to a point where such an analysis was in fact possible. Currently I am about two-thirds of the way through putting the analysis on paper but thought that the folks here might be interested in a sneak peek of sorts. :twisted:

Image

Image

And one example of the (yet to be completed) aircraft to be compared with: :wink:

Image

-Vivek
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Re: LCA news and discussion

Post by vina »

George J wrote: Here is Kedar's excellent shot of both the ECS and the missile.

http://www.bharat-rakshak.com/media/Aer ... i.jpg.html
Nope GJMan. This particular photo has significant zoom compression of background and distorts perception. Cannot use that to gauge the dimensions of ECS and R73.
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Re: LCA news and discussion

Post by Hitesh »

Hi guys,

I am hoping that you can help me out in this. I need to verify a non-Indian aircraft designer/engineer's take on the LCA's program. Here is the text by the engineer.
The LCA is dead. They just aren't smart enough to stick a fork in it. Last year they were saying in the media that they were ruling out any foreign assistance to get it back on track, and at the same time they were in talks with Boeing to rescue the project. The latest headline was "EADS roped in to help on LCA" or something to that effect. The GOI is trying to force manufacturers to rescue the LCA as a condition for the MRCA deal, which will also probably never happen. Boeing said thanks, but no thanks.

It's a comedy of errors which I find quite amusing, given all the bluster surrounding the poor jet. Here's the current status:

The undercarriage is 3,000 lbs. overweight. That's a hell of a lot to trim for such a small aircraft, and they won't be able to do it. They think they can upthrust the engine to compensate, but the airframe won't take it. So it would have to be beefed up, which means more weight and a vicious cycle of more weight, more power, etc. The little jet is just too small to be able to take that kind of treatment.

It's mach limited to about M1.4, then it starts to depart. It's been to M1.6 one time, but the design spec calls for M1.8. It'll probably take a new wing to remedy.

It's AOA limited to 17 degrees, the IAF specified 21 degrees minimum. That's even a bigger problem for the IN if they ever want to land on a carrier, since you can't go slow enough to stop on a flight deck. Will only be fixed with a new wing and addition of canards.

The engineers didn't understand how to manage the real estate, so things got stuck wherever they could find room. The power supply for the radar is behind the cockpit, which necessitates long power leads, generating heat and power losses. There isn't room to put a different radar in place without a total redesign of the forward fuse. The whole jet is like that; willy-nilly design.

The first 400 test flights were made with no configuration changes. We wouldn't even think of such nonsense. You learn nothing other than how to do airshow flyby's. Lol. Weaponisation is at a standstill, AFAIK no release tests of any kind have been done to date.

There is almost no documentation on the prototypes. They have 5 planes- each on is different, but they don't know what the differences are from frame to frame.

HAL wants nothing to do with the project, and even best case could only produce 12 frames a year or so. So even if they can sort out the design, how do they get the numbers to induct in any useful fashion? HAL is happy with the IJT, and wants to put their efforts there. They knew the LCA was design obsolete before it ever got to LRIP.

It's definitely not the "Indian Gripen", like the kids want to proclaim.
I would appreciate your rebuttals with firm data and back up sources. I have sent a reply to him with this:
But as for weaponisation, you are incorrect. Last year, the LCA was flying with weapons and did a live firing test. See here at http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W9ZMuisk4I8

As for the AoA being 17 degrees as opposed to 21 degrees, here's a news article that was not archived.
ndia has never failed’


Bangalore, May 28: The Light Combat Aircraft Tejas is set to undergo hot weather trials in Nagpur. This is a significant step for those involved with the project, which has to obtain Initial Operational Clearance in mid-2010. Speaking to this correspondent, Dr. P.S. Subramanyam, the LCA project director, explained the importance of the projects and the difficulties it faced.

Now, with the finish line in sight, Dr Subramanyam exulted: "This country has never failed in anything, be it nuclear weapons, missiles, supercomputers." Speaking about the hot weather trials which are expected to be held before the month-end or early June, Dr Subramanyam said, "The Nagpur trials are to see how the aircraft and its subsystems work in hot weather conditions. We expect to experience an ambient temperature of 45º Centigrade and characterise the aircraft."

In August-September, the aircraft will be taken to Jaisalmer for weapon trials. The cold weather trials will be done next year. Answering questions about delays and cost overruns, Dr Subramanyam charted the course of the project. "It was first proposed in 1983, but the Aeronautical Development Agency (ADA) itself came into existence only in 1985. And, we had three people then. Initial activity started in 1986 when ADA was given a small corner in the National Aeronautical Laboratory," he said.

In 1987-88, Dassault of France was commissioned to do preliminary feasibility studies. "It was only in 1989 that we came to understand what the project entailed." "We gave our report to the government, and said we would need to produce seven aircraft to complete the programme. The government said just build two technology demonstrators," he said. "It was then considered nothing more than an engineering project. Even money for phase one of the full-scale engineering project was given in 1993."

The technology development included development of a fly-by-wire system, real-time embedded controllers and other sub-systems. "We completed that programme in 2004. The real kick-off for operational fighter aircraft was given only in 2001, after the first flight test that year." "If you consider this timeline, the progress of the LCA project is comparable to any other fighter jet project around the world," Dr Subramahyam said.

When the project started, "our technology was stencil drawings, while other countries had advanced technology. We did not even have computers to work on, let alone CAD/CAM software," he said. "We did not have the human resources, we did not have the design tools, and we did not have the test facilities. All of them had to be evolved." Today, six aircraft have done 870 flights. There is still painstaking work to be done on the ‘angle of attack’. The LCA hs reached 20 degrees against 22 degrees required for highest performance.

"The flying machine is ready. We are building the fighting machine," Dr Subramahyam said. "We are doing the sensor-weapon integration, and we are 80 per cent through.
As for the overweight problem, it could be attributed to IAF wanting to add more sensors and avionics which led to the increase of the LCA's weight from 8,000 to 10,000. Also the Kaveri's engine performance was disappointing in that it did not achieve the desired thrust, therefore leading LCA to be declared as "overweight."

If you want a better understanding of this, perhaps you can visit this: http://forum.keypublishing.co.uk/showthread.php?t=80797
I would appreciate your help with this.
Tanaji
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Re: LCA news and discussion

Post by Tanaji »

^^^

Er, the best argument is that you cant make those statements unless you have actual flight data to back it up. He does not have access to the test profile or what parameters are being pushed and how the envelope is being opened. Hence statements like "AoA limited" "Mach limited" are guesses at best.

Countering it is futile, unless one who counters has access to the program and hopefully such a person will never speak up.

Best strategy: "Yes saaar, you are right saar, LCA no good saar... what to do we are poor SDRE only saar..."
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Re: LCA news and discussion

Post by Singha »

generally what is the approximate weight of a figher undercarriage. 3000lb overweight would imply the total weight of the undercarriage itself be huge - something like 3 tons :mrgreen: about the weight of 3 corolla cars.
Anujan
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Re: LCA news and discussion

Post by Anujan »

HAL wants nothing to do with the project, and even best case could only produce 12 frames a year or so. So even if they can sort out the design, how do they get the numbers to induct in any useful fashion? HAL is happy with the IJT, and wants to put their efforts there. They knew the LCA was design obsolete before it ever got to LRIP.

It's definitely not the "Indian Gripen", like the kids want to proclaim.
Last I heard, Indian pilots also dont want to do anything with the project. They can fly only 124 planes (which we are already getting through MMRCA). At best, they can fly 1-2 LCAs. The Indian navy, when contacted, said "we like ships, what would we do with planes ?" and they also didnt want anything to do with the LCA.

I personally walked out of the LCA project in disgust. I had recommended that they place the power supply in front of the cockpit, run a axle from the from the back between the legs of the pilot (Kinda Chennai's Pallavan-bus like design) to turn the generator, and hang the radar out of a pod below (there was no more space left on the nose). The idiots at NAL instead put the power supply behind the cockpit with some NAL engineer mumbling "1 km long 12 gauge copper wire (the kind you use to hook up speakers) has a total resistance of 5ohms you idiot".

I hit him on the head with my armchair (which I had been sitting on while making my analysis) and left. This LCA will never fly.
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Re: LCA news and discussion

Post by AmitR »

Anujan wrote: I personally walked out of the LCA project in disgust. I had recommended that they place the power supply in front of the cockpit, run a axle from the from the back between the legs of the pilot (Kinda Chennai's Pallavan-bus like design) to turn the generator, and hang the radar out of a pod below (there was no more space left on the nose). The idiots at NAL instead put the power supply behind the cockpit with some NAL engineer mumbling "1 km long 12 gauge copper wire (the kind you use to hook up speakers) has a total resistance of 5ohms you idiot".

I hit him on the head with my armchair (which I had been sitting on while making my analysis) and left. This LCA will never fly.
:(
So it is all a farce a big farce after all these years.
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Re: LCA news and discussion

Post by Mihir »

Anujan wrote:I personally walked out of the LCA project in disgust. I had recommended that they place the power supply in front of the cockpit, run a axle from the from the back between the legs of the pilot (Kinda Chennai's Pallavan-bus like design) to turn the generator, and hang the radar out of a pod below (there was no more space left on the nose).
If that is the quality of your engineering knawlidj, ADA is better of without your kind! :evil:

If they "hang the radar out of a pod below", where would they put the second engine that would give the LCA more thrust?
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Re: LCA news and discussion

Post by BijuShet »

Anujan wrote:
HAL wants nothing to do with the project, and even best case could only produce 12 frames a year or so. So even if they can sort out the design, how do they get the numbers to induct in any useful fashion? HAL is happy with the IJT, and wants to put their efforts there. They knew the LCA was design obsolete before it ever got to LRIP.

It's definitely not the "Indian Gripen", like the kids want to proclaim.
Last I heard, Indian pilots also dont want to do anything with the project. They can fly only 124 planes (which we are already getting through MMRCA). At best, they can fly 1-2 LCAs. The Indian navy, when contacted, said "we like ships, what would we do with planes ?" and they also didnt want anything to do with the LCA.

I personally walked out of the LCA project in disgust. I had recommended that they place the power supply in front of the cockpit, run a axle from the from the back between the legs of the pilot (Kinda Chennai's Pallavan-bus like design) to turn the generator, and hang the radar out of a pod below (there was no more space left on the nose). The idiots at NAL instead put the power supply behind the cockpit with some NAL engineer mumbling "1 km long 12 gauge copper wire (the kind you use to hook up speakers) has a total resistance of 5ohms you idiot".

I hit him on the head with my armchair (which I had been sitting on while making my analysis) and left. This LCA will never fly.
Anujanji this is the bestest desi criticism(vaccine against all gora inspired criticism) that I have read for the LCA :rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl:
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Re: LCA news and discussion

Post by putnanja »

Some people can't recognize sarcasm if it hit them on their head with an armchair :rotfl:

Anujan, good stuff. :mrgreen:
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Re: LCA news and discussion

Post by Yogi_G »

AmitR wrote:
Anujan wrote: I personally walked out of the LCA project in disgust. I had recommended that they place the power supply in front of the cockpit, run a axle from the from the back between the legs of the pilot (Kinda Chennai's Pallavan-bus like design) to turn the generator, and hang the radar out of a pod below (there was no more space left on the nose). The idiots at NAL instead put the power supply behind the cockpit with some NAL engineer mumbling "1 km long 12 gauge copper wire (the kind you use to hook up speakers) has a total resistance of 5ohms you idiot".

I hit him on the head with my armchair (which I had been sitting on while making my analysis) and left. This LCA will never fly.
:(
So it is all a farce a big farce after all these years.
Whoa, I know its OT but cudnt resist replying to your comment! I would bet my money on Indian brains (scientists and engineers) any time. They have achieved so much with so little. shoestring budgets at that. It would be very easy to dismiss off something like LCA, but unless WE KNOW ALL THE FACTS AND FIGURES let us not jump to any conclusions. LCA is still on and everybody is looking forward to this beauty (beast with weapons on :-))...

I would trust Indian scientists and Engineers over TFTA ones!!! So please be optimistic and please be nice, every nice word to our scientists and engineers will further motivate them in what is an otherwise thankless job!!
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Re: LCA news and discussion

Post by Rahul M »

to use an yuppy expression, some people have been pwned on this thread ! :rotfl: :rotfl:
great sarcasm anujanullah ! :lol:

vivek, waiting for the full show. :)
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Re: LCA news and discussion

Post by SaiK »

it reached mac 1.4 with 3000 lb undercarriage overweight. once it reached mach 1.6 with the same weight. they are planning a new wing, that would add additional overcarriage and overweight. they want to be invisible on top of it. the engineers are adding even more real-estates on it. now for carrying additional ration supply sacks of additional one ton, the engineers are planning to upthrust the engine, and the engine itself adds additional 1 ton overweight. this makes up additional 5000 lb weight gain.
dont worry..have curry...the engineers are under weight loss program. :)
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Re: LCA news and discussion

Post by Kartik »

AmitR wrote:
Anujan wrote: I personally walked out of the LCA project in disgust. I had recommended that they place the power supply in front of the cockpit, run a axle from the from the back between the legs of the pilot (Kinda Chennai's Pallavan-bus like design) to turn the generator, and hang the radar out of a pod below (there was no more space left on the nose). The idiots at NAL instead put the power supply behind the cockpit with some NAL engineer mumbling "1 km long 12 gauge copper wire (the kind you use to hook up speakers) has a total resistance of 5ohms you idiot".

I hit him on the head with my armchair (which I had been sitting on while making my analysis) and left. This LCA will never fly.
:(
So it is all a farce a big farce after all these years.
relax, he's being sarcastic !

that twit who wrote about the LCA claiming to be an aero-engineer was writing from his imagination and using some open source info on what its supposed problems are..too many facts are wrong or just BS, which give away the author of that post as a likely Puke doing some psy-ops stuff. the part about the radar was also written originally by Ravi Sharma, the Grand DDM Master.
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Re: LCA news and discussion

Post by AmitR »

Kartik wrote:
AmitR wrote: :(
So it is all a farce a big farce after all these years.
relax, he's being sarcastic !

that twit who wrote about the LCA claiming to be an aero-engineer was writing from his imagination and using some open source info on what its supposed problems are..too many facts are wrong or just BS, which give away the author of that post as a likely Puke doing some psy-ops stuff. the part about the radar was also written originally by Ravi Sharma, the Grand DDM Master.
Thanks, I for a moment thought that our Late Combat Aircraft will never see the light of the day.
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Re: LCA news and discussion

Post by Kartik »

Hitesh wrote:
The LCA is dead. They just aren't smart enough to stick a fork in it. Last year they were saying in the media that they were ruling out any foreign assistance to get it back on track, and at the same time they were in talks with Boeing to rescue the project. The latest headline was "EADS roped in to help on LCA" or something to that effect. The GOI is trying to force manufacturers to rescue the LCA as a condition for the MRCA deal, which will also probably never happen. Boeing said thanks, but no thanks.

It's a comedy of errors which I find quite amusing, given all the bluster surrounding the poor jet. Here's the current status:

The undercarriage is 3,000 lbs. overweight. That's a hell of a lot to trim for such a small aircraft, and they won't be able to do it. They think they can upthrust the engine to compensate, but the airframe won't take it. So it would have to be beefed up, which means more weight and a vicious cycle of more weight, more power, etc. The little jet is just too small to be able to take that kind of treatment.

It's mach limited to about M1.4, then it starts to depart. It's been to M1.6 one time, but the design spec calls for M1.8. It'll probably take a new wing to remedy.

It's AOA limited to 17 degrees, the IAF specified 21 degrees minimum. That's even a bigger problem for the IN if they ever want to land on a carrier, since you can't go slow enough to stop on a flight deck. Will only be fixed with a new wing and addition of canards.

The engineers didn't understand how to manage the real estate, so things got stuck wherever they could find room. The power supply for the radar is behind the cockpit, which necessitates long power leads, generating heat and power losses. There isn't room to put a different radar in place without a total redesign of the forward fuse. The whole jet is like that; willy-nilly design.

The first 400 test flights were made with no configuration changes. We wouldn't even think of such nonsense. You learn nothing other than how to do airshow flyby's. Lol. Weaponisation is at a standstill, AFAIK no release tests of any kind have been done to date.

There is almost no documentation on the prototypes. They have 5 planes- each on is different, but they don't know what the differences are from frame to frame.

HAL wants nothing to do with the project, and even best case could only produce 12 frames a year or so. So even if they can sort out the design, how do they get the numbers to induct in any useful fashion? HAL is happy with the IJT, and wants to put their efforts there. They knew the LCA was design obsolete before it ever got to LRIP.

It's definitely not the "Indian Gripen", like the kids want to proclaim.
don't worry Hitesh. the chutiya that wrote the above (pardon the language) is one of the many internet Paki salwar mujahideen. basically recycling, gurgling open source info from DDM reports that Ravi Sharma and his ilk have been writing for years now. I actually suspect one of the Pukes who used to frequent the KeyPub forums and used to write the same stuff about 17 deg AoA, overweight, etc. the reports that this chutiya is using to act like he's got insider knowledge of are like this

excerpts from that Ravi Sharma article are posted below, which that chutiya basically lifted out and claimed to be HIS insights.. :evil: the date of the report was July 2005. Only a moron would think or imply that nothing has changed or been done since then.
But according to reliable sources associated with the LCA programme, of the 200-odd sorties that have been completed with the IOC in mind, hardly 10 per cent were `real' experimental test flights. The rest were meant for data generation for parameters such as vibration and radio transmission or were display-flying either before dignitaries (such as the Russian and Venezuelan Presidents, the Malaysian Prime Minister and the Chilean Defence Minister) or in air shows/displays. A retired Air Marshal said: "You can't progress towards your IOC by just taking off and landing the aircraft, the tests have to be done with specific manoeuvres in mind."
Confessed a test pilot: "The LCA has flown almost all its 400 sorties without a change of configuration.
The LCA has also suffered from poor estate management, with designers and engineers fitting equipment "wherever there was place on board".

Poor estate management has also meant that components are not placed where they should ideally be. For instance, though the power amplification unit should ideally be as close to the MMR, in the LCA it is placed some distance away, requiring the use of long wires, which means guide wave losses.

The plethora of paperwork and information on the LCA has also not been documented adequately.

Informed sources said that even HAL is not overtly keen on the LCA. It is, without doubt, focussing more on its own Intermediate Jet Trainer programme.
so you see, nothing new here being mentioned, everything is either exaggerated or simply untrue. there are some problems-for example components with lower MTBF (x) placed such that a higher MTBF component (y) would have to be removed to access the component x. that will need to be re-engineered, but believe me, this is all nothing new for an aircraft program and thats what systems re-engineering will sort out at a later date.
Last edited by Kartik on 07 May 2009 23:29, edited 1 time in total.
Kartik
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Re: LCA news and discussion

Post by Kartik »

AmitR wrote:Thanks, I for a moment thought that our Late Combat Aircraft will never see the light of the day.
I suggest you don't use such monickers for the LCA. the MiG-21's name is forever maligned by DDM's liberal use of the word Flying Coffin and now laymen who don't know of its service history mock it with no knowledge of its history.
Anujan
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Re: LCA news and discussion

Post by Anujan »

Hitesh-saar

Sorry couldn't resist :mrgreen:

Yes, LCA has some hiccups, but they are due to complicated project management/first timer/infrastructure issues. For example, there is this issue with the Kaveri, and then there is MMR and then there is this fact that since we are testing our own craft in the supersonic regime for the first time, we do not know what the right mix of risky (faster testing) vs conservative test points are (we are trying for consultancy here).

Dont believe some internet chair marshal making statements about issues that a 5th std desi kid can think of and avoid. He talks about documentation, I have a dhoodhwallah who is peripherally related (small scale industry owner in coimbatore - take a guess what he supplies 8) ) and complains that the SDRE babu in charge, is maintaining all design documents in triplicate for every nut and bolt.

This power supply behind cockpit as Karthik-saar had mentioned is lahori-logic filtering a DDM article and should have set off all of your BS meters. At 30,000 feet, outside air temperature is -45C and our chair marshal is talking of heating issues. In any case, LCA has this thing called "engine" which puts out far more heat than probably all electronics in all IAF planes combined and NAL has figured out a way of shielding the pilot/electronics/rest of the aircraft from it.

And what is this "power loss" BS ? *1 KM* of the cheapest 12 gauge copper speaker cable of the lowest quality you could possibly find, wont have a resistance of more than 5 Ohms. And we are talking about from the back of the cockpit to the Radome ? How much distance is that ? 6 feet ? Our engineer is worried about power loss over a copper wire 6 feet long ?* Djinn energy might suffer much attenuation at this distance, last I checked power loss for electricity wasnt that much.

And how did our chair marshal chance upon this discovery when the MMR hasnt been integrated with any flying LCA yet ?

Hitesh-saar, keep faith. We have embarked on a very complicated project. We went from zero to designing fins and rudder on a software developed at home with estrogen fueled it-vity. We then optimized weight, strength and stiffness, co-cured it ! Why the worry about wiring ?

*This came from Lahori-logic applied to the article Karthik-saar pointed out which mentioned long waveguides. These is a separate issue about the design of the radiating units in the Radar itself, and I suspect it is BS as well.
Last edited by Anujan on 08 May 2009 02:23, edited 1 time in total.
Hitesh
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Re: LCA news and discussion

Post by Hitesh »

Kartik, I do appreciate what you are saying. However I was hoping that you would have some news articles or data that would directly refute this engineer's claims such as the weight has been reduced or there is no problem with the weight or the engine has achieved the desired thrust, etc, etc and thus back up our assertions that the LCA is on the right track.
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Re: LCA news and discussion

Post by SaiK »

hitesh, there is no need to refute a claim that has no valid data in itself.
Last edited by SaiK on 08 May 2009 02:49, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: LCA news and discussion

Post by Kartik »

Anujan wrote:
This power supply behind cockpit as Karthik-saar had mentioned is lahori-logic filtering a DDM article and should have set off all of your BS meters. At 30,000 feet, outside air temperature is -45C and our chair marshal is talking of heating issues. In any case, LCA has this thing called "engine" which puts out far more heat than probably all electronics in all IAF planes combined and NAL has figured out a way of shielding the pilot/electronics/rest of the aircraft from it.
Anujan, actually heat transfer equipment are used for electronic equipment that generate a lot of heat. the fuel in the fuel tanks are used as a heat sink and heat transfer is done to keep the avionics bay temperatures to the design temperature limits.
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Re: LCA news and discussion

Post by Kartik »

Hitesh wrote:Kartik, I do appreciate what you are saying. However I was hoping that you would have some news articles or data that would directly refute this engineer's claims such as the weight has been reduced or there is no problem with the weight or the engine has achieved the desired thrust, etc, etc and thus back up our assertions that the LCA is on the right track.
where's the proof that the dodo is an engineer ? any Puke gets his hands on an article, basically copies it over and puts an "Let me tell you the current status" in the front and people believe it ?

the very fact that the weight is accepted as being over 1000 kgs over the Initial Design Intent (5500 kg initially aimed, now at 6500 kgs) is enough. from a design/analysis point of view, they have been conservative on the LCA project, which is why there is added weight- as an analyst, you're not experienced, you're not so sure about the failure properties of the composite materials, so you add a little extra margin to your Margin of Safety calculations and over a thousand parts, it adds up to a LOT of weight..remember, that there is VERY little work going on in India in the field of composites. companies like Boeing have been working with composites for over 50 years. there are methods, material properties, allowables, etc. derived over decades of R&D and in-service experience data. so, there is so much trust in the material data/allowables, that you're expected to size to nearly zero margins. even then, with Boeing farming out work to other firms with a lot less experience, the 787 and 747-8 are majorly overweight. for Indian designers, the implications of a structural failure are such that they basically decided to take weight over failure any day. as they get loads/strains in flight, they will be able to do a lot more work on re-analysing parts and reducing their weight.

BTW, the current LCA is just as heavy as the JF-17 Bandar, and we don't hear the PAF complaining about weight issues, do we ? beggars can't be choosers, so they gladly accept it and keep quiet. the IAF is spoilt for choices and hence the desi product is directly compared to a product made by a company (Dassault, Saab, MiG, Boeing, LM, etc.) that has been in the fighter business for as long as you can imagine. if you compared ANY of Tata's cars to a Merc/BMW/Honda/GM/Ford car, you'll basically complain as well. but if the choice is between a Habib Motors Sitara and no car at all, you'll take the Habib Sitara quietly, as the PAF is doing.
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Re: LCA news and discussion

Post by rakall »

Hitesh wrote:Hi guys,

I am hoping that you can help me out in this. I need to verify a non-Indian aircraft designer/engineer's take on the LCA's program. Here is the text by the engineer.
It's mach limited to about M1.4, then it starts to depart. It's been to M1.6 one time, but the design spec calls for M1.8. It'll probably take a new wing to remedy.

It's AOA limited to 17 degrees, the IAF specified 21 degrees minimum. That's even a bigger problem for the IN if they ever want to land on a carrier, since you can't go slow enough to stop on a flight deck. Will only be fixed with a new wing and addition of canards.

It's definitely not the "Indian Gripen", like the kids want to proclaim.
.

The LCA has "already" flown 1.6M at 8KM alt... also cleared 22deg AOA.

There goes the sanctity of the 'only' numbers he has put in his article... about Mach limited to 1.4 and AOA to 17deg.
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Re: LCA news and discussion

Post by shiv »

rakall wrote:
The LCA has "already" flown 1.6M at 8KM alt... also cleared 22deg AOA.

There goes the sanctity of the 'only' numbers he has put in his article... about Mach limited to 1.4 and AOA to 17deg.
:(( Still not good for me. No time now but I will come back with new complaints later after looking through my whine checklist.

For example I saw a Grey camo LCA take off with white drop tanks. Poor standards! It would never happen in Britain/France/USA.
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Re: LCA news and discussion

Post by rakall »

Callin AUSTIN

Austin you had posted a pdf file "Basic and Applied Problems of Stealth Technologies....N Lagar'kov and M.A. Pogosyan" in KeyFora about a month ago... it is not available for download as more than 10downloads have happened..

Can you please post it here..

If anyone has a copy please upload it somewhere and post download link.. please
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Re: LCA news and discussion

Post by Kakarat »

http://www.ada.gov.in/others/CurrentNew ... -lca_.html

LCA-Tejas has completed 1101 Test Flights successfully. (07-May-09).

* LCA has completed 1101 Test Flights successfully
(TD1-233, TD2-304,PV1-191,PV2-120,PV3-144,LSP1-48,LSP2-61).
* 191st flight of Tejas PV1 occurred on 06th Apr 09.
* 48th flight of Tejas LSP1 occurred on 06th Apr 09.
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Re: LCA news and discussion

Post by NRao »

Defence Ministry plans to revive Tejas
After the Indian Air force almost wrote off the Light Combat Aircraft (LCA), christened Tejas, due to its low power engine, the LCA is all set to make a comeback with the defence ministry ready to float a global tender, valued over Rs 3,300 crore, to purchase more powerful engines for the Aircrafts.

The current engine, General Electric F-404, fitted on the LCA restricts the aircraft’s ability to carry out combat maneouvres with optimal weapons payload, as it does not deliver the required thrust.

European military aerospace engine consortium Eurojet Turbo and American company General Electric will be competing to supply 100 engines for the LCA. The Eurojet EJ200 and the GE F-414 engines generate a thrust of 95-100 Kilo Newton, which meets the IAF’s requirements.

The air force intends to induct some 140 (seven squadrons) light combat aircraft manufactured by Hindustan Aeronautics Limited over the next decade. The first LCA squadron, however, will come with the underpowered American GE-404 engines that deliver a thrust of only 80-85 Kilo Newton.

IAF sources said fitting the heavier engines would require design changes in the airframe, which could take up to three to four years. Initial operational clearance for the LCA has is now expected in 2010.
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Re: LCA news and discussion

Post by sum »

European military aerospace engine consortium Eurojet Turbo and American company General Electric will be competing to supply 100 engines for the LCA. The Eurojet EJ200 and the GE F-414 engines generate a thrust of 95-100 Kilo Newton, which meets the IAF’s requirements.
What? Still have to float the RFP?

Guess new improved Tejas is atleast 5-6 years away then... :(
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Re: LCA news and discussion

Post by Hitesh »

Looks like this above report corroborate some of what the non-Indian aerospace engineer told me.
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Re: LCA news and discussion

Post by Singha »

why is the GE-414 not deemed enough with a air superiority payload? M2K-5 which the IAF wanted to
buy off the shelf has a weaker engine and heavier weight.

and in a A2G role, nobody does the kind of ACM that a enlarged engine will provide.

imo its a case of setting the bar too high, too soon...before the 1st few squadrons are delivered
and stuff settles down.

bad thing will happen imo.
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Re: LCA news and discussion

Post by Kartik »

Hitesh wrote:Looks like this above report corroborate some of what the non-Indian aerospace engineer told me.
such as what ? be specific. whatever you had written earlier about what some "non-Indian aerospace engineer" was just a lifted from a 2005 Hindu article and passed off as someone's own insights, which was patently untrue.
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