LCA news and discussion

Kailash · Post by **Kailash** » 07 Mar 2009 20:43

That is hilarious Dileep...

May be like the unwritten rule "any one who learns to cycles, has to fall down and hurt his knees", same way m mittal believes accidents as a sign of completeness, of being thorough !

Failure may be a stepping stone, but we wish to skip-hop that step..

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 07 Mar 2009 20:58

the only thing we can say, the faster our programs move to a CMM model, the better we become.

vsunder · Post by **vsunder** » 07 Mar 2009 21:09

Shiv: As I said the other side of the coin is tomography. Here is an article that actually
implements algorithms for detecting cancerous tumours. These algorithms are based on inverse scattering
methods again. So then they have to refer to the usual people, "math lecturers of the Vachagom Pillai type".
Better to be one than a do nothing banker.

Off course the linked article was written before invisibility became a buzz word.

Now its upto you if you have faith in such non-invasive radiological schemes.

http://www.siltanen-research.net/SIAM_EIT.pdf

There is a fine line that separates many things. For example the mathematics of cavitation flow
that helps in understanding how to make a sub propeller quiet is close enough to that which
allows you to understand composite materials and shape optimization.

m mittal · Post by **m mittal** » 08 Mar 2009 00:03

Dileep wrote:
I know I am being a bit pessimistic but just imagine if LCA Tejas comes across some sort of accident; what would happen to already much delayed project.
Mittal, do us a favour. Go to a mirror, and inspect your tongue under bright light.

If you see any blemish/dark spot, immediately go to your favourite shiv temple (the doc's home is fine) and do 108 sayana pradakshina, chanting

Kara charana krutam vaak kaayajam karmajam vaa
shravan naya najam vaa maanasam vaaparaadham
vihita maavihitam vaa sarvametat shamasva
jai jai karunabdhe shri maha deva shambho.

A slap across the back of the head is the standard prescription for kids saying such things. Adults need stronger means.

Wish Dileep all this could save Saras. You mouthing at me will not and can not rule out the possibility of an accident. I would like to wish for the best but be prepared for the worst and take remedial measures to avoid the worst.

Unfortunately the way science works is not going to shiv temple.

I wish and hope no accidents happen but yes I am scared of this possibility. As this will just lead to further delays.

m mittal · Post by **m mittal** » 08 Mar 2009 00:05

Kailash wrote:That is hilarious Dileep...

May be like the unwritten rule "any one who learns to cycles, has to fall down and hurt his knees", same way m mittal believes accidents as a sign of completeness, of being thorough !

Failure may be a stepping stone, but we wish to skip-hop that step..

Kailash I guess you must read my post again and also the reply to Dileep before you start your mindless blabbering.

Nihat · Post by **Nihat** » 08 Mar 2009 00:19

LCA has not had a single accident till now and despite what a few might think this is actually an achievement , it doesn't mean that HAL is not putting the LCA through enough stress or proper testing , it merely means that the minds behind LCA have been meticulous and dedicated in their effort to not leave any gaps.

Wickberg · Post by **Wickberg** » 08 Mar 2009 00:41

A krish wrote: Actually Gripen crashed on it's first test flight.
Ofcourse, after so many delays any more delays due to whatever reasons are unacceptable.

Actually it was its 6th test flight. But it was the first time they had invited television crews to film it so offcourse it had to crash in front of the cameras.

vasu_ray · Post by **vasu_ray** » 08 Mar 2009 00:45

do planes in the Saras class have fuel dumping systems for emergency landing? in the hot Indian weather fuel will ignite easily.

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 08 Mar 2009 00:57

You have to note that LCA by design is engaging controls for an unstable aircraft. it should be more fault tolerant than Saras. Nevertheless, tons of testing is yet to be done.

This is exactly Dileep saying.. pray the testing goes well.. and not curse or say negative about it. Even the best built and configured a/cs can be go kaput.. also please note that Saras testing was for "engine off" test, per my last read on the ddm.

mittal, neither going to temple nor you saying going to cause any issues. those were for your psyche and for the health of this thread.

imho

KrishG · Post by **KrishG** » 08 Mar 2009 01:55

SaiK wrote:You have to note that LCA by design is engaging controls for an unstable aircraft. it should be more fault tolerant than Saras. Nevertheless, tons of testing is yet to be done.

This is exactly Dileep saying.. pray the testing goes well.. and not curse or say negative about it. Even the best built and configured a/cs can be go kaput.. also please note that Saras testing was for "engine off" test, per my last read on the ddm.

mittal, neither going to temple nor you saying going to cause any issues. those were for your psyche and for the health of this thread.

imho

The difference would be that Tejas has an ejection seat while Saras doesn't!

Anyway, lets hope everything goes well. Tejas has gone through much already.

skher · Post by **skher** » 08 Mar 2009 02:13

A krish wrote:
The difference would be that Tejas has an ejection seat while Saras doesn't!

Anyway, lets hope everything goes well. Tejas has gone through much already.

But Saras does have parachutes and an autopilot,right?

The left hand(NAL Saras) must have learnt & got a few things pre-prepared from the right hand (HAL Tejas),right?

Re-inventing the wheel is a necessary evil,perhaps not always so.
Say,isn't NAL also a part of the ADA?

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 08 Mar 2009 02:24

nal is not ada or its business part. but, it could share expertise, knowledge and products/components to gov-gov established routes.

if saras needs ejection, then it needs ejections for pilots, crews, and the 14 seats.

spin chute system perhaps would be useless when aircraft shuts off its engine [its not a glider?] correct?.

marimuthu · Post by **marimuthu** » 08 Mar 2009 02:38

Sorry to hear about the crash of Saras. That is an unfortunate event but test flights come with their own perils. There is a lot of knowledge sharing between NAL and ADA. Most of the higher officials now working in ADA came from NAL on deputation. Present NAL director Dr.A.R.Upadhay, earlier worked as a PD in ADA structural division. Advanced composite Unit in NAL is the one which fabricates and test the composite parts for LCA. There is knowledge sharing between NAL,HAL and ADA in a greater sense as far as I know. They don’t reinvent the wheel unless and otherwise it is absolutely necessary.

This may sound a surprise, but saras do have some aero-elastic problems. That was pretty interesting because of it sub-sonic flight regime. There was a lot of co-operative work going on in this area between ADA and NAL. I will wait till the official reason is given out, rather than speculate

skher · Post by **skher** » 08 Mar 2009 02:58

SaiK wrote:
spin chute system perhaps would be useless when aircraft shuts off its engine [its not a glider?] correct?.

That's why an autopilot becomes complimentary with spin chute.Being aerodynamic and the wing design suggests limited gliding, Saras glide for sometime,can't it?

Perhaps they're flying too low for chutes.The fuel might have combusted and destroyed everything.Awaiting the report and black box transcript
.
This reminds me,do LCA pilots have some amount of fireproofing in their uniform?

The tragedy should lead to upgraded safety inventory and a 'lives before prototype' policy.This a tough ask but has now been proved necessary.

Kartik · Post by **Kartik** » 08 Mar 2009 03:12

vivek_ahuja wrote: Don't know about the other uses of active noise cancellation, but that's what they are planning for the LCA pilot helmet to cancel out the ambient engine noise in the cockpit. Makes it easier to hear communications info over the R/T.

-Vivek

Vivek, there was an article in AW&ST on a new 3D/ANR system on Danish F-16s that is a 3 dimensional audio threat warning and active noise reduction technology. Regarding the ANR (Active Noise Reduction)-"its like taking away the loudest instruments in a live concert. ANR removes the annoying, low-frequency noise such as the rumbling of the engine and other aircraft noises. Basically, everything below 2-3 KHz, is attenuated." ANR allows the pilots to fly without the ear plugs routinely worn for fatigue reduction and hearing protection.

Regarding the LCA, I do remember one test pilot input was that the noise levels in the cockpit needed to be reduced, which would likely mean more insulation and slight weight additions. Adding an Active Noise Cancellation system on the DASH helmets would take care of pilot fatigue and they probably wouldn't need to increase sound insulation so much in the cockpit.

And the digital processing on the ANR should also make voice communication sharp and clear. On the 3D/ANR, they say that another benefit is that different communication channels can be separated using 3D audio, so that, VHF radio for intra-flight communication appears from teh left-hand side and UHF radio, used to talk to ground, appears from the right side. From a pilot's perspective- "We normally use both radios tactically and simultaneously and then have to turn down the volume on one..sometimes its hard to decide which one to turn down. With the new system, you're never in doubt who's talking to you and its easier to focus on what one person is saying despite another person talkign to you. This leads to a surprisingly significant reduction of workload, while the time spent blocking frequencies by clearing up misunderstandings is also minimized."

On the Danish system, the 3D audio system recieves missile location data from the missile warning sytem via Terma's (Danish defence electronics company) ALQ-213 Electronic warfare management system. it takes into account the position of the pilot's head, making use of data from the helmet-mounted cueing system head tracker. then, a 3D audio warning of the threat is presented to teh pilot in such a way that the sound appears to come from the direction from which the missile is approaching. As a pilot said "Its very intuitive to recieve an audio warning from teh correct direction and elevation. This allows me to immediately look on the right line of sight, saving valueable seconds. A last-ditch evasion maneuver.

This may eventually end up on the F-35 and other fixed and rotary-wing platforms.

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 08 Mar 2009 09:49

vasu_ray wrote:do planes in the Saras class have fuel dumping systems for emergency landing? in the hot Indian weather fuel will ignite easily.

This is the LCA thread.

Could I ask people not to lose focus?

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 08 Mar 2009 09:53

skher wrote: This reminds me,do LCA pilots have some amount of fireproofing in their uniform?

If fact I did some research based on this serendipitous idea. I wrapped my pet hamster in a fireporoof coating and threw it in a small petrol fire that I created for the purpose.

i was happy to see the fireproof coating completely intact. The hamster died though.

ArmenT · Post by **ArmenT** » 08 Mar 2009 12:18

skher wrote: This reminds me,do LCA pilots have some amount of fireproofing in their uniform?

Most modern flight suits are made of a mixture of Nomex (for fire resistance) and Kevlar (for strength). But as the good doc pointed out above, there are other dangers to the pilot such as falling from a great height, explosive force, asphyxiation etc.

Gaur · Post by **Gaur** » 08 Mar 2009 14:08

shiv wrote: If fact I did some research based on this serendipitous idea. I wrapped my pet hamster in a fireporoof coating and threw it in a small petrol fire that I created for the purpose.

i was happy to see the fireproof coating completely intact. The hamster died though.

Dmurphy · Post by **Dmurphy** » 08 Mar 2009 14:09

shiv wrote:
skher wrote: This reminds me,do LCA pilots have some amount of fireproofing in their uniform?

If fact I did some research based on this serendipitous idea. I wrapped my pet hamster in a fireporoof coating and threw it in a small petrol fire that I created for the purpose.

i was happy to see the fireproof coating completely intact. The hamster died though.

Did you really do that?

chand · Post by **chand** » 08 Mar 2009 14:29

shiv wrote:
skher wrote: This reminds me,do LCA pilots have some amount of fireproofing in their uniform?

If fact I did some research based on this serendipitous idea. I wrapped my pet hamster in a fireporoof coating and threw it in a small petrol fire that I created for the purpose.

i was happy to see the fireproof coating completely intact. The hamster died though.

You are a monster, should go to hell.

sum · Post by **sum** » 08 Mar 2009 14:36

I would assume Shiv-ji is upto usual psy-ops onlee.....

saptarishi · Post by **saptarishi** » 08 Mar 2009 14:40

shiv wrote:
If fact I did some research based on this serendipitous idea. I wrapped my pet hamster in a fireporoof coating and threw it in a small petrol fire that I created for the purpose.

i was happy to see the fireproof coating completely intact. The hamster died though.

devil devil,man what's the difference between u and the terrorists

u could have wrapped a doll or puppet instead of the little rodent,,poor thing,,in his next life he will take birth in TSP and as terrorist he may gun for u,jokes apart ,'HAMSTER DEAR RIP,GOD BLEE U'.

dipak · Post by **dipak** » 08 Mar 2009 17:18

shiv wrote: In fact I did some research based on this serendipitous idea. I wrapped my pet hamster in a fireporoof coating and threw it in a small petrol fire that I created for the purpose.

i was happy to see the fireproof coating completely intact. The hamster died though.

you are at it again, Shiv!

sarang · Post by **sarang** » 08 Mar 2009 17:59

shiv wrote:
skher wrote: This reminds me,do LCA pilots have some amount of fireproofing in their uniform?

If fact I did some research based on this serendipitous idea. I wrapped my pet hamster in a fireporoof coating and threw it in a small petrol fire that I created for the purpose.

i was happy to see the fireproof coating completely intact. The hamster died though.

skher · Post by **skher** » 08 Mar 2009 18:04

ArmenT wrote: Most modern flight suits are made of a mixture of Nomex (for fire resistance) and Kevlar (for strength). But as the good doc pointed out above, there are other dangers to the pilot such as falling from a great height, explosive force, asphyxiation etc.

Right.I was not attempting to undermine any efforts.I can now be sure that our agencies have designed features that protect the test pilots from other dangers.

On TV,a documentary on the Harrier jump jet aired just a few hours back.
Despite best efforts,the program had had at least 14 accidents involving the experimental engine's vertical thrust.

Only after 20 years,were the Brits able to achieve a full functioning prototype - only to be rejected by their own services and picked by the US Marine Corps{smell some psy-ops}.

The Harrier still stands today and is the only operational VTOL fighter jet. Surely,it is the RAF's pride and envy of others.

Maybe,the Harrier story has a lesson for us to imbibe for the LCA:-

Never discard or disown your own things because there are better things in the world.
Try,tinker,toil and surely it will emerge- Tejaswin,full of radiance.

Also,some role or useful employment can be found for a unproven piece of engineering....the Harrier was eventually found to be very useful for the British Forces in Germany,as it could be concealed easily after a bombing run.

shiv wrote:
i was happy to see the fireproof coating completely intact. The hamster died though.

Good sir,the hamster's family won't be able to press charges then.

Dileep · Post by **Dileep** » 08 Mar 2009 21:21

I think finally I get into the league of the good doc, dealing with people sense of humour challenged. Man! BRF has changed, but I didn't believe GJman then!!

The ONLY reason LCA didn't have accidents is because people broke their backs ensuring that. EVERYONE involved KNEW the ramifications of one, so avoiding one became the first and foremost priority. I don't think they are going to be complacent and lax now.

They better be, because an accident, even years AFTER FOC*, is going to cripple the programme.

* Accident happens on one of the 20 units in service, and I can bet my cajun chicken that the entire fleet will be grounded, production halted, and every spade of muck that could be found in the country will be thrown.

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 08 Mar 2009 21:37

chand wrote: You are a monster, should go to hell.

Speaking of hell , and more seriously.

Did you people read the eyewitness report of the Saras crash? The plane hit the ground and burst into flame. An eyewitness then saw one of the pilots who was trapped in the crash - trying to extricate himself from the flames around him. And then there was a second explosion that filled the area with thick smoke for several minutes.

Hell indeed. I wish my going to hell would bring back that man, who went through living hell in service of the country. That brings me to the point. Having fireproof clothes, or even fire retardant clothes is almost pointless if you get caught in flames. If only the buffoon whom people claim sits in heaven and whose name is "dog" spelt backwards was kind enough not to allow accidents, or at least kill by head injury rather than allowing a man to live through hell right here.

If wishes were horses..

I don't even know what hamsters look like incidentally. Do they look like God?

saptarishi · Post by **saptarishi** » 08 Mar 2009 22:52

shiv wrote:

If only the buffoon whom people claim sits in heaven and whose name is "dog" spelt backwards was kind enough not to allow accidents, or at least kill by head injury rather than allowing a man to live through hell right here.

hey man i can understand ur dilemma,i mean its painful watching the real servitors of the nation undergoing such a suffering,,but buddy mind ur language,,,just get ur atheistic point of view out of here,,,accidents are accidents,,,just blaming the ''KIND MAN ABOVE'' won't do,, i know the BR forums are dedicated to patriots,,but no matter who u are,,u can't blame GOD without having true spiritual knowledge,,,i suggest u to read BHAGAVAD GITA.u would find ur answers there,,,and please with due respect to you and ur opinion,,""shut up next time while blaming GOD''

Kailash · Post by **Kailash** » 08 Mar 2009 23:11

Peace gentlemen.

If discussing Saras crash was OT, this is way OT.

Anujan · Post by **Anujan** » 08 Mar 2009 23:12

shiv wrote:Speaking of hell , and more seriously.

I just fervently hope that this results in better safety and testing procedures and Saras takes to the air again and doesnt go the way of our flying chappati. The flying chappati fiasco set us back by a decade and a half with nothing to show for it

Having said that a civilian aircraft suffering a crash during testing is a serious thing dont know what the impact would be on the operational clearance

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 08 Mar 2009 23:13

IB4TL

skher · Post by **skher** » 09 Mar 2009 01:06

Dileep wrote:
They better be, because an accident, even years AFTER FOC*, is going to cripple the programme.

* Accident happens on one of the 20 units in service, and I can bet my cajun chicken that the entire fleet will be grounded, production halted, and every spade of muck that could be found in the country will be thrown.

It should not.This is exactly the lesson that the Naval LCA's predecessor Harrier teaches us.
The subsonic jump jet too was a tad outdated by the time was finally through all the accident-prone tests.
But the Brits persevered - they focused on weapon systems that would keep Harrier relevant & ahead of its competition.

Their hard work paid off eventually.

It's still the only VTOL fighter in the world and would continue on in many nations for another 20 years,even though it was designed in the late '50s.

The rule book for LCA and MiG-21 should be the same - since they are assembled by the same company,HAL.

The Halwara crash didn't cause the Bison to be grounded,so why would there be any sudden enthusiasm to mothball the LCA?

It would be better if IAF/ex-IAF technical officers were directly involved and responsible for safety supervision at HAL,considering the low opinion they have of them.

At 32 sqdns,the IAF is done complaining from the sidelines.Time to take over.

Gaur · Post by **Gaur** » 09 Mar 2009 03:16

SaiK wrote:IB4TL

Err..really?

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 09 Mar 2009 04:16

well.. the scare did stop the OTs.

negi · Post by **negi** » 09 Mar 2009 06:07

Saik ji you r too much.

Wickberg · Post by **Wickberg** » 09 Mar 2009 10:12

Dileep wrote:
* Accident happens on one of the 20 units in service, and I can bet my cajun chicken that the entire fleet will be grounded, production halted, and every spade of muck that could be found in the country will be thrown.

I suppose that depends on why they think a accident have happened. If they suspect cracks in the wing root for instance it´s only natural to ground all similar air crafts to check their wings. Or if they think it´s pilot-induced oscillation (PIO) (which happened to both Gripen and F-22 in the developing face) it is also necessary to ground the fleet when it comes to unstable FBW air crafts...

Nitesh · Post by **Nitesh** » 09 Mar 2009 13:47

http://deccanherald.com/Content/Mar9200 ... 122857.asp

Indigenous LCA engine ready for maiden trial
DH News Service, New Delhi:

After two decades of copious criticism from every quarter, the indigenous Kaveri engine is ready for its maiden flight trial in 2010.

“We have completed all ground testing for the full engine and individual components. The first flight (in a light combat aircraft) is expected in early 2010,” T Mohana Rao, director of the Gas Turbine Research Establishment (GTRE), Bangalore, which is developing the engine, told Deccan Herald.

Way back in 1986, the Defence Ministry wanted to develop an indigenous gas turbine engine for the indigenous fighter, Light Combat Aircraft (LCA), which just got off from the drawing board.

The decision led to the Kaveri programme, which was sanctioned in 1989 with an initial funding support of Rs 382.81 crore.

Clueless scientists

But over the years, Kaveri exemplified everything that is wrong with Indian defence research.

There was serious time and cost overrun and the programme was unable to meet many of its stated objectives. Many government and Parliamentary committees blamed the GTRE and the DRDO for India’s failure to have an indigenous engine for the fighter planes in time despite promises.

On the eve of the flight trial, Rao said when they were assigned the critical task they had no clue about the difficulties and were literally groping in the dark.

“We were thoroughly mistaken about the time. No one guided us. We were in dark along with our countrymen,” the GTRE chief admitted.

Rao confessed that there were flaws in the planning process when the project was conceived.

“We were over-optimistic that in six to eight years time, we will be able to make a gas turbine engine from scratch. But it was a myth,” he said.

Almost for the first seventeen years, GTRE scientists had to work in isolation as there was hardly any outside consultation with other engine manufacturers. “We just had some hunch. Consultation started since the last three years,” he said.

There was no test facility in India because of which the engine had to be sent abroad every time for test, further increasing the development time. The centre has so far sanctioned Rs 2080 crore for Kaveri. This, according to Rao, is one-fifth of what other nations have spent on developing similar gas turbine engines.

When the Kaveri programme was sanctioned in 1989, technical specifications were drawn out on the basis of a theoretical concept of the LCA. With the evolution of the LCA design, changes in the engine specifications were necessitated. Till date, GTRE made eight full engines and four core engines which do not have the low-pressure components and some other machinery.

Three cores and one full engine underwent testing in simulated conditions. In the next couple of months, full altitude testing in simulated conditions would be carried out to ensure that the engine can fire between 0-8 km altitudes.

This will be followed by the flight trial in another few months.

skher · Post by **skher** » 09 Mar 2009 15:54

Nitesh wrote: http://deccanherald.com/Content/Mar9200 ... 122857.asp

There was no test facility in India because of which the engine had to be sent abroad every time for test, further increasing the development time. The centre has so far sanctioned Rs 2080 crore for Kaveri. This, according to Rao, is one-fifth of what other nations have spent on developing similar gas turbine engines.
...
Three cores and one full engine underwent testing in simulated conditions. In the next couple of months, full altitude testing in simulated conditions would be carried out to ensure that the engine can fire between 0-8 km altitudes.

This will be followed by the flight trial in another few months.

Development costs are comparatively lesser here than Western nations.Chandrayaan was cheaper too.

Hence,construction of flight trial centres & engine trial centres like the one in Gromov Institute,Zhukovsky could be the real stimulus package that our construction majors need with their western consultants.

iirc,there was a report of a proposed engine cum flight test centre being developed in the country for the kaveri and its derivatives..Does anyone have links to second that?

K Mehta · Post by **K Mehta** » 09 Mar 2009 19:23

skher wrote: Development costs are comparatively lesser here than Western nations.Chandrayaan was cheaper too.

Can you explain how development costs can be cheaper in case of Kaveri? Chandrayaan wasnt our first satellite, Kaveri is our first engine development programme (Unless you consider PTAE-7 engine, which is in essence a miniaturized orpheus engine). That too with objectives that are not achieved by any engine.
Please dont compare apples with oranges.