Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

[Vikram_S]

Vikram_S:
1. How does one achieve a sustainable and efficient hypersonic regime without using a scramjet? (Ramjets are most inefficient above speeds greater than ~Mach 5).

Sir, What is the relevance of scramjet to this discussion at all? all i cannot find any link to scramjet in article.

since same articles list (main site) also carries details of Brahmos MK2, there seems to be no plan to cancel JV with Russia.

again, this is Aroor speculation, who cannot even realise difference between Scramjet or Ramjet, and will one day claim alien technology in India other day curse DRDO.

2. It is Aroor's comments that are being discussed and a denial or confirmation sought from Pillai owing to teh strategic nature of this project. Pillai and BrahMos need to respond to this ASAP. In cases like this, silence is tantamount to acceptance. Owing to the strangulation of a truly free, knowledgeable and unbiased press in India, it is only in forums such as BRF that questions can be asked. Some call BRF a small well and teh hoopla a storm in the cup, but we are happy to live as fog in a (prominent) well.

3. Nobody is accusing Pillai of corruption. His record of efficiency and discretion is truly outstanding at the very least, which makes statements and motives attributed to him in Aroor's article even more puzzling. For e.g., reliable reports indicate that even the Russian's were deeply impressed by the "S" shaped manoeuvres at low level demonstrated by the BrahMos at Pokhran, given the fact that the BrahMos is derived from teh Yakhont which is an anti-ship missile. However, the fate of BrahMos is not dictated by Pillai, but by people way above him in the GoI hierarchy.

Arun S sir, I respect you and your analysis, but if it is only Aroors comments which are discussed why does one have to make such intensely personal and distasteful remarks?

One can ask questions without such personal motive imputed or allegations of incompetence or distasteful language.

That statement to Shiv Aroor is IMVHO cheap posturing by Sivathanu Pillai at the expense of the country he claims to serve. Empty tinpot to make noise to cry for topjob.

One doesn't make bombastic statements about setting up ManTech groups within a JV

However, if Aroor has proof (recordings etc. of Pillai's statements), then Pillai might be in serious poop.

As things stand if Pillai doesn't retract his comments and the Russians call his bluff, he's left with poo in his mouth! What leg does he have to stand on then?

Next scientific advisor to the defence minister & DRDO chief :
Previous choice of M Natarajan was extremely poor.
Sivathanu Pillai will be even more worse.

IMVHO some serious amounts of moola is changing hands, all under the watchful gaze of the servants of foriegn interest!

i ask sir, is it right for person of your stature, to make such demeaning remarks about shri pillai?

if it is some low level person no one would care, but when such comments come by "webmaster of BR Forum" and that too, a respected one, then surely you understand it is not correct.

also sir, why should Pillai sir respond to every journalist who is out to make name by such claims? if he does not say anything, this stupid issue can die a natural death.

if he makes comment, everyone will raise more news about it.

sir, if we note how aroor operates as ravi ku has pointed out. he will take something random from the net, link it to something else and then create controversy.

aroors master, a certain shri SG also does same tactics. as it suits, mysterious "in the past" interviews with AB Vajpayee, PVN Rao everyone come out, right at time, when one particular slant is being pushed.

why should BR Forum rely on third rate news from blogger who was actually publishing news reports at same level of Prasun K Sengupta (ref: DRDO series in IE). only difference is prasun gupta is living in thailand or someplace while we suffer with aroor in india

[Vikram_S]

To get back on topic, I consider this news very good for following reasons. it has potential to be game changing in indian space.

right now, missile are made only by 3 groups - drdl group, BDl group, brahmos group.

there is now attempt by tata nova to get into this space also by getting assembly rights for MRSAM unit.

tata nova effort will take time and is also restricted by IP control of israel, third party.

R&D unit associated with DRDL - rci is loaded with work for ABM project and existing items.

PSU structure of BEL, HAL has also so much business from existing product line and license production that there is no special focus on seeker and missile propulsion which is currently only restrict to RCI. drdo is going to them instead of them going to drdo.

BDL r&d is limited to helping production for drdo missiles. PSU structure and lack of prior R&D focus make BDL limited in terms of such ambitious project.

LAB such as LRDE cannot do the seeker since they have already so much work for many kinds of Ground radars, air radars.

it is best to have another organization to cover the gaps left currently in indian industrial scenario

so shri pillai proposal has the ability to be game changing. by making accountable, indigenisation focused organization owned by brahmos, with drdo control but flexible, independent organization which does relevant work for brahmos and similar missile for future.

similar proposal had keltech transferred to brahmos corp and now keltech unit is making other item for other indian missile projects and is doing ok.

this is just logical extension and i hope MOD will support this.

[Vikram_S]

drdo, isro and others ares already leveraging Brahmos Corp beyond Brahmos!

link

``The ISRO needs industrial backing for making launch vehicles, with the annual launch frequency to go up to ten a year from the existing four launches. We want to be partners and provide adequate facilities for integrating space vehicles,’’ Sivathanu Pillai said.

After the KELTEC take-over in 2008, BrahMos has increased output by three times, contributed to some major projects like Chandrayaan I, the `Shaurya’ missile programme and the nuclear programme, Sivathanu Pillai said. ``We can now supply to four PSLVs a year. We also built the main booster of `Shaurya’ missile,’’ he said.

so let us look at brahmos structure:
http://www.brahmos.com/content.php?id=1&sid=6

"brahmos aerspace thiruvananthapuream limited"

this unit is one mentioned above and meets needs of ISRO, DRDO and other industries

if this mantech proposal is given clearance then similar unit will also be set up and come as new unit under brahmos, and will "Serve" not just brahmos program but also other orgs and progerams also.

[John]

e:
After the KELTEC take-over in 2008, BrahMos has increased output by three times, contributed to some major projects like Chandrayaan I, the `Shaurya’ missile programme and the nuclear programme, Sivathanu Pillai said. ``We can now supply to four PSLVs a year. We also built the main booster of `Shaurya’ missile,’’ he said.

The pressurized canister, TEL, intertial navigation system/gyroscope and the design are few things Brahmos has contributed to Shaurya missile program for example.

[Katare]

It's very poorly written with little attention or consultation with stakeholders. An average manager can write better proposal in half a day but he has chosen a pretty catchy name for it.

[Singha]

I would urge folks to resist the very indic tradition of beating up our own man without
fully understanding the situation. Its all part of the plan - good cop, bad cop, indifferent cop, xerox cop....all have uses, all avatars serve humanity or atleast in this case - India.

Rus does have a history of hypersonic missile experiments. but generally their ranges
tend to be > 300km...at mach6+ , 300km is a few long strides.

the 'stage separation' of brahmos and the new entity will be needed if we are to obtain such techs from Rus yet still Rus can keep the fig leaf of MTCR handy to beat others with.

not all the public posturing that goes on in defence arena is 'true'. there are certain 'steps' to lay the groundwork for the real things that happen. this is esp true of Indo-Rus and Indo-Israeli issues.

---
http://www.sergib.agava.ru/russia/radug ... s/gela.jpg

Radouga, the Russian missile builder based in the Doubna region of Moscow, presented at the Zhukovskiy show its experimental hypersonic missile, alias "GELA"--this time its actual self--developed between 1985 and 1992. Although it was not unveiled in its full-scaled real-life form until , the kerosine-propellant scramjet- powered missile had been presented in the form of a wind- tunnel-test mockup at the preceding show in 1993. Its flight tests also date back to 1993


As Valentin N. Troitsky, the project manager, explained it to us, the experimental missile, developed under funding provided by the Soviet Aeronautical Industry Ministry, has undergone only two flight tests, from Zhukovskiy. They proved successful. Jettisoned from a Tu-95 plane at an altitude of 8,000 m, the scramjet-powered missile--6 m long, 1.2 m in diameter, weight not disclosed- -accelerated from Mach 2.5 to Mach 5, attaining an altitude of 35,000 m. According to the builder, these initial tests were fully satisfying in that they enabled verification of the general operation of the scramjet engine, which is characterized by a semicircular fixed-cone air intake designed to be integrated under an aircraft fuselage. But lack of funding prevented continuation of the flight-test program to optimize the operating parameters (fuel consumption, pressure, flight envelope, etc) of the GELA kerosine-propellant scramjet-powered missile. [8 Sep 95, No. 1530, pp 20-25]
---
and more importantly even MBDA is working on it - probably as a SRAM type
successor to the aeging ASMP nuclear strike missile :-

DATE:17/06/09
SOURCE:Flight Daily News
PARIS AIR SHOW: MBDA advances hypersonic missile work with Russian deal
By Craig Hoyle

MBDA France has signed a deal with Russia's Rosoboronexport leading to a 2013-15 campaign of test firings with the LEA air-breathing hypersonic air vehicle, under study since 2003. Each 4.2m (13.8ft) vehicle will be released from a Tupolev Tu-22 bomber before being taken to a speed of between Mach 2 and 8 using a Raduga-supplied booster rocket, says Francois Falempin, responsible for advanced propulsion with MBDA France.

[Singha]

from flightglobal 2003:

SCRAMJET
MBDA picks dual mode engine

MBDA France has selected a methane/hydrogen-fuelled dual-mode
ramjet/scramjet to power the LEA experimental hypersonic vehicle to be
flight tested jointly with Russia. LEA is a follow-on to France's Promethee
programme to develop technology for a Mach 8 long-range air-to-ground
missile that could eventually replace the country's ASMP air-launched
nuclear weapon. (my hunch was right)

Six air-launched flight tests of the 5m (16.4ft)-long expendable vehicle are
planned between 2009 and 2012, to
measure the aeropropulsive balance in flight at speeds of M4, M6 and M8.

LEA is not a technology demonstration, says MBDA's Francois Falempin,
but a scientific experiment to validate modelling predictions. "We are not
trying to achieve positive thrust, but to measure the aeropropulsion balance
very accurately," he says.

Mixing methane and hydrogen fuel will increase thrust while improving
ignition, says Falempin. Ground testing in France will continue development
of combustion chamber technology for a fuel-cooled, variable-geometry
scramjet to power a future hypersonic missile, which could be ready for
development once the LEA flight tests in Russia are completed in 2012.
Further tests on using endothermic fuel to regeneratively cool the engine are
planned, says MBDA.

[Singha]

for air delivered nukes, having a hypersonic attack vehicle is best means of ensuring
SAMs cannot get to it and have minimum time window to react.

[Arun_S]

Vikram_S, I would not belabour this but let me put it this way:
I should have stated "That statement alleged by Shiv Aroor of Sivathanu Pillai , if true, is IMVHO cheap posturing by at the expense of the country he claims to serve." My statement should have been more carefully worded. My apologies for any unintended allegations on my part.

also sir, why should Pillai sir respond to every journalist who is out to make name by such claims? if he does not say anything, this stupid issue can die a natural death.

It is upto Shri Pillai to respond, but I think he needs to respond to this because he interviewed in a widely read blog (irrespective of whether it is first rate or third rate) making statements which could damage a critical JV.

With regards to my statements "As things stand if Pillai doesn't retract his comments and the Russians call his bluff, he's left with poo in his mouth! What leg does he have to stand on then?", this could very well be the situation if Pillai did indeed make the statements as alleged by Aroor and the Russians were not formally consulted in advance of the nature of the ManTech group or of Pillai's intentions.

Finally, please note that issues like this do not just die away. They linger on and eventually ruin a relationship that has provided consultancy for the ATV, an Akula-II submarine on lease, a supersonic cruise missile, cryogenic engines, the SU-30 MKI, and hopefully scramjet engines and the technology to build them. No other nation would have helped India obtain these items except the Russia, who even offered India single crystal technology but the opportunity was lost by incompetent bureaucrats at tremendous cost to India.

There are many forces who would like to see this relationship damaged. Till Pillai comes out with a denial or an explanation, the doubts will always persist whether pressure was placed on him by certain persons to make such statements. Please note that the Russians can do without the Indian component in BrahMos, but India cannot do without the Russian component.

[koti]

for air delivered nukes, having a hypersonic attack vehicle is best means of ensuring
SAMs cannot get to it and have minimum time window to react.

If hypersonic speed is critical in aerial delivery, IRBMs and ICBMs would achieve higher speeds at terminal phase.
Wouldn't it be better to use random trajectory for them in terminal phase to simulate evasive manoeuvre?
But IMO Hypersonic vehicles would justify their cost of resources it it were a tactical warhead.

[Singha]

a hypersonic air launched missile could also be used to take out hard static targets with conventional warheads.

for nukes , any form of ALCM fast or slow > air dropped the bar is very low.

[Austin]

Did we manage to reverse engineer the Brahmos-1 ramjet engine or develop a Indian seeker yet ?

If not its premature for Pillai to say what Shiv "claims" he did , creates problem when things are going smooth and all success for Brahmos , this would alert the Russian about our intention and create bad blood , more loss to us than them , much more greater loss for friendly relationship.

[rakall]

e:
After the KELTEC take-over in 2008, BrahMos has increased output by three times, contributed to some major projects like Chandrayaan I, the `Shaurya’ missile programme and the nuclear programme, Sivathanu Pillai said. ``We can now supply to four PSLVs a year. We also built the main booster of `Shaurya’ missile,’’ he said.

The pressurized canister, TEL, intertial navigation system/gyroscope and the design are few things Brahmos has contributed to Shaurya missile program for example.

I think it is mudh ado about nothing.. why was the headline "Brahmos trying to shake-off Russia" chosen? Nothing in the document implies that... The headline could very well have been "Brahmos expanding into defence manufacturing" or any such...

The ManTech cell could very well be to utilize the sucess of Brahmos in efficiently building a lot of stuff for the Brahmos-1 missile, space vehicles, Shaurya/Sagarika etc after their acquisition of Keltech... the basic premise could be to use the dynamism of Brahmos setup to expand beyond Keltech and/or acquire more such manufaturing facilities to indigenise a lot of stuff that DRDO is developing.... right now DRDO is not a good production agency & it might be the push to bring a part of critical technology production directly under DRDO's umbrella (rather than forward everything to private industry -- keep the very sensitive stuff with DRDO)..

OTOH -- Mantech will claim to have indigenised the seeker & engine.. which they will verymuch do with the blessings of their Russian counterparts by acuiqirng full ToT.. and then go on to (they will claim) develop a Brahmos-Mk2 with longer range themselves -- a very neat trick to sidestep MTCR.. And it is coming at the right time too -- 2-3days ago GoI had apparently cleared Brahmos-II (the hypersonic version) and there is no way that can be limited to 300km range.. so yindoos & ruskies are probably looking at tricks to overcome MTCR (unless the Brahmos-II is meant for only Indian & Russian purposes)...

I think thats all there is... Mantech is a plan to manufacture hitech defence equipment -- which might vvery well include tech that goes into both Indian & Russian systems.. and it is happening with the connivance of the Russians and that is why it will be setup as part of the JV - so that both parties have stake.. ofcourse, until the headlines like "shakeoff Russians" entriely sidestep the actual intent..

[Cain Marko]

I think it is mudh ado about nothing.. why was the headline "Brahmos trying to shake-off Russia" chosen? Nothing in the document implies that... The headline could very well have been "Brahmos expanding into defence manufacturing" or any such...

Its called sensationalism, aroor seems like an expert here. Based on the JP article about israel not being considered for the Gripen's radar, the man put forth, "Gripen - out of the MRCA race?" Jeez. Pathetic.

CM.

[Cain Marko]

Finally, please note that issues like this do not just die away. They linger on and eventually ruin a relationship that has provided consultancy for the ATV, an Akula-II submarine on lease, a supersonic cruise missile, cryogenic engines, the SU-30 MKI, and hopefully scramjet engines and the technology to build them. No other nation would have helped India obtain these items except the Russia, who even offered India single crystal technology but the opportunity was lost by incompetent bureaucrats at tremendous cost to India.

There are many forces who would like to see this relationship damaged.

This makes a lot of sense. There seem to be plenty of hatchet jobs in the press anymore, esp. wrt to indo-roosi relations.

CM.

[rakall]

Finally, please note that issues like this do not just die away. They linger on and eventually ruin a relationship that has provided consultancy for the ATV, an Akula-II submarine on lease, a supersonic cruise missile, cryogenic engines, the SU-30 MKI, and hopefully scramjet engines and the technology to build them. No other nation would have helped India obtain these items except the Russia, who even offered India single crystal technology but the opportunity was lost by incompetent bureaucrats at tremendous cost to India.

There are many forces who would like to see this relationship damaged.

This makes a lot of sense. There seem to be plenty of hatchet jobs in the press anymore, esp. wrt to indo-roosi relations.

CM.

But all this is on the assumption that Pillai did make these statements to press.. which i doubt !! He is from the breed of scientists who have been testing "solid fuelled Prithvi"... and the new trial of "Nishant with new engine" also just happens to carry two 50kg bombs under the wings etc...

Even if he made those statements - it could have been a setup to garner support for Mantech.. which itself could be a deeper scheme... if Brahmos is trying to do it inspite of Russians - what is the document doing on Brahmos website? So it might very well be 'along with' the Russians.... otherwise it is a classical case of "killing the goose that lays golden eggs" -- hopefully Dr.Pillai is not immature.

It is not always what it seems in Indian defence... remember the "Plutonium recycling plant"??

[Cain Marko]

But all this is on the assumption that Pillai did make these statements to press.. which i doubt !! He is from the breed of scientists who have been testing "solid fuelled Prithvi"... and the new trial of "Nishant with new engine" also just happens to carry two 50kg bombs under the wings etc...

Even if he made those statements - it could have been a setup to garner support for Mantech.. which itself could be a deeper scheme... if Brahmos is trying to do it inspite of Russians - what is the document doing on Brahmos website? So it might very well be 'along with' the Russians.... otherwise it is a classical case of "killing the goose that lays golden eggs" -- hopefully Dr.Pillai is not immature.

It is not always what it seems in Indian defence... remember the "Plutonium recycling plant"??

You misunderstood. I was agreeing with you in that it could be naught but yellow journalism (in the post prior to the one you quote). Another hatchet job in the press against the russkies, a trend that seems to have really caught on. I'd guess some sinister players involved (as Arun was pointing out). And there definitely is no denying the trend of crummy journos spicing up headlines to get a little attention, pathetic.

Nothing more (can't really comment about Pillai, since I know v.little about him).

CM.

[rakall]

You misunderstood. I was agreeing with you in that it could be naught but yellow journalism (in the post prior to the one you quote). Another hatchet job in the press against the russkies, a trend that seems to have really caught on. I'd guess some sinister players involved (as Arun was pointing out). And there definitely is no denying the trend of crummy journos spicing up headlines to get a little attention, pathetic.

Nothing more (can't really comment about Pillai, since I know v.little about him).

CM.

I hope you did not find that my post was a contradiction/disagreement of your post or Arun's post.. All I meant was "the relationship will go bad" is true IFF Pillai has said those words.. which might not be true.. which means the same thing as you & Arun are saying -- either somebody made those things up or it is a hatchet job..

If people look at all the recent posts on Aroor's blog regarding Brahmos - Brahmos on Tu-142 & Mig31 (first impression on livefist) or the Hypersonic Brahmos (exclusive)..... they are all old photos.. seen before.. And obviously lifted from Brahmos webpage... Looks like Aroor recently stumbled on this webpage and he is making a "sensational post" of every single thing he foudn there..

Added later:
A thorough look at Brahmos website - in one of the sections there is an article written by a Brahmos executive on "Military robots in future". GUESS WHAT -- yesterday there was a program on HeadlinesToday (Aroor was one of the commentators) on Robots... showing some clips from the movie "I Robot" and ranting on how USA is designing robots that feed on organic waste (including flesh).. so how they might evolve into frankenstein monsters that might start eating eat humans & human flesh in future... Hilarious... No wonder where the idea for this programme (on flesh eating robots) has come from -- Brahmos website !!!!! He woudl have seen this article, done a bit of googling on military robots and cameup with flesh eating robots..

Basically that is an indication of the source, basis and the means for some his recent posts.. Based on that -- it depends on how seriously we might want to consider some of the outrageous claims in his Mantech post..

[vasu_ray]

video showing an air launched ABM

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zpFkYmwh0SQ

anybody know why the cocoon is used to launch the missile

[Cain Marko]

Rakall,

You nailed it in the head. But about man eating bots - i hear it's for real (with due exaggeration of course). Guy must be living off worldnet daily or abovetopsecret.com i guess.

CM

[sanjaychoudhry]

Anti-tank Nag missile test fired by army
The hit-to-kill capability of the third generation anti-tank Nag missile was proved once again with the Army, successfully completing the second phase of final user trials in Rajasthan and paving the way for early induction of the system. While extensive transportation trials were carried out on July 31 and August 1, three missiles were fired on August 2 against fixed and moving targets by the Army team. Based on the feedback provided by the Army following previous user trials, the system was made more rugged to suit its requirements.

Defence Research and Development Organisation officials said here on Tuesday that the missile “conclusively established” its K-Kill efficacy (capability to kill) as a stationary derelict tank was heavily damaged in each of the two trials carried out against fixed targets. Potent tandem warheads pierced through the armoury of the tanks and proved their lethality. The third trial was conducted against a moving rail-based target which was developed by the Army. All the trials were of shorter range, varying from 800 metres to 1400 metres, as desired by the user. The production of the all-weather system with fire-and-forget capability was expected to begin soon by Bharat Dynamics Limited.

http://www.hindu.com/2009/08/05/stories ... 362000.htm

[Prem Kumar]

A noob question: if we have a working Ramjet based missile (Akash), why are we still dependent on Russia for ramjet propulsion for Brahmos-1?

[John]

SA-6 (Akash is based on) is solid propellant based ramjet (DR) and has lot of drawbacks compared to Brahmos' liquid fueled ramjet engine. Latter is more maneuverable, cheaper to maintain and lot more compact.
Auspower write up on SA-6 good pictures of the engine

The centre fuselage contains the gas generator fuel charge for the solid propellant ramjet operation. The 9D16K sustainer solid gas generator charge comprising 67 kg of LK-6TM reducing propellant is ignited and the hot gas discharge vents into the combustion chamber, where it is mixed with air to burn and generate sustainer thrust. Burn duration is ~20 seconds, during which the missile accelerates to a peak velocity of ~2.8 Mach. Russian sources claim that the sustainer cannot be throttled and as a result this limits choices in missile trajectories.

[abhiti]

Did we manage to reverse engineer the Brahmos-1 ramjet engine or develop a Indian seeker yet ?

If not its premature for Pillai to say what Shiv "claims" he did , creates problem when things are going smooth and all success for Brahmos , this would alert the Russian about our intention and create bad blood , more loss to us than them , much more greater loss for friendly relationship.

Well didn't Russia refuse to share rocket technology for Brahmos. It seems bear has gotten into the habit of not keeping their contracts. You got to do a China on them...copy the technology and pay nothing. This will serve them right.

[Austin]

Well didn't Russia refuse to share rocket technology for Brahmos. It seems bear has gotten into the habit of not keeping their contracts. You got to do a China on them...copy the technology and pay nothing. This will serve them right.

No , it was a joint development always , Russia brought what they had , we brought to the table what we had , there was no technology transfer or any thing of that sort for Brahmos , that was clarified by HAL chief some months back

[abhiti]

No , it was a joint development always , Russia brought what they had , we brought to the table what we had , there was no technology transfer or any thing of that sort for Brahmos , that was clarified by HAL chief some months back

Hmm...this article seems to claim there was indeed some technology which Russia was supposed to share with Brahmos aerospace. Can you post the comments from HAL chief...I don't seem to find it on google.

http://www.indiaenews.com/pdf/94508.pdf

[Singha]

one similarity between aroor's own drawing and delta-4 is a 'thing' atop
the vertical tailplane. even yankee class had it...yankee looks most similar
on outside to alleged arihant shape.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/c ... _class.jpg

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_o_no4M2xEPY/S ... 764137.jpg

[Austin]

Hmm...this article seems to claim there was indeed some technology which Russia was supposed to share with Brahmos aerospace. Can you post the comments from HAL chief...I don't seem to find it on google.

http://www.indiaenews.com/pdf/94508.pdf

Yes Nair's comment as you see there , but then look what Pillai says

'This is a joint venture. So, there's no question of transfer of technology. Russia manufactures the
engines, we manufacture the guidance system and integrate the two,' Pillai said.
'Transfer of technology occurs if the technology is purchased,' he added.

So the boss admits no technology transfer , we dont give them , they dont give us , its a joint venture not an outright TOT deal.

[abhiti]

This is a joint venture. So, there's no question of transfer of technology. Russia manufactures the engines, we manufacture the guidance system and integrate the two,' Pillai said. 'Transfer of technology occurs if the technology is purchased,' he added.

So the boss admits no technology transfer , we dont give them , they dont give us , its a joint venture not an outright TOT deal.

This is what is so fishy. Remind me India contributed real money to build Brahmos while Russian contribution was the technology (no money). That is what gave them 49% financial stake in Brahmos aerospace. Are we now saying Russia has no stake in Brahmos and are simply a vendor? Seems like GOI bit the bullet on this one as well. Bear is indeed playing hard ball, we need to play back China ball copy and pay nothing.

[Austin]

There is nothing fishy...

They get what they are good at , we bring in what we are good at , its an equal stake.
Both us and them induct Brahmos in their armed forces , both get veto right over exports which keeps china from getting it , if Brahmos gets exported both get money , so where is the problem.

Both contributed money and intellectual , where do you think Russian make those ramjet engine and seeker from , out of dust ? Doesn't that cost money ? All that infrastructure in India , R&D facility to make exotic stuff like SCAN , do we develop that from thin air ?

Pillai has stated in clear words its a JV , so Brahmos corp was aware of this.

Brahmos is a clear win win , we get absolutely advanced supersonic missile with a proven ramjet engine, seeker and other stuff developed in a time bound manner to end user satisfaction , plus veto and bragging rights , they get money from every export Brahmos corp does which has good potential as we are told , get access to stuff like SCAN and block 2 like capability from SDRE intellectual which probably they never would have thought was possible.

[ramana]

Dont they get improved electronics which they can leverage elsewhere?

[Prem Kumar]

Austin: agree with you for the most part, not fully. There is no doubt Brahmos is a world class missile and its been a flagship success program. Something that every Indian is immensely proud of.

The area where we are not reaping the full benefits is Russian-adoption & exports: there has been a lot of "talk" about the export potential for a couple of years now, but no firm order. It seems that only the Indian side is pushing for exports. What's worse is that Russia is paying lip-service about adopting it with their own armed forces. And in parallel promoting Yakhont or its derivatives. Since they didnt provide seed capital to the JV, there is no financial incentive for them to recoup it by sales of Brahmos (if the same money can be earned by promoting a wholly home grown product like Yakhont & not having to share the revenue with Brahmos Corp). We are of course very keen to maximize our ROI on it.

From this perspective, they are violating the spirit & possibly the letter of the JV. The situation will come to a pass when we both go head to head against each other for the same deal.

P.S. I dont know what the Brahmos management team looks like - are there any Russians in it?

[abhiti]

Both contributed money and intellectual , where do you think Russian make those ramjet engine and seeker from , out of dust ? Doesn't that cost money ? All that infrastructure in India , R&D facility to make exotic stuff like SCAN , do we develop that from thin air ?

Brahmos is a clear win win , we get absolutely advanced supersonic missile with a proven ramjet engine, seeker and other stuff developed in a time bound manner to end user satisfaction , plus veto and bragging rights , they get money from every export Brahmos corp does which has good potential as we are told , get access to stuff like SCAN and block 2 like capability from SDRE intellectual which probably they never would have thought was possible.

The above is called being smart by half...there is two ways to engage:

1) Vendor - Example GE providing engine to LCA. They still keep all veto rights on where and how engine can be used and who can it be transfered to. They provide technology expertise to integrate the engine with LCA and others. Then charge money for each engine. No problem with this situation. Of course GE spent money to develop the engine it cannot be developed for free.
2) Joint venture - In this case you both for a seperate company. The company gets money from both (or technology in lieu of money) and then uses its employees to develop products. Then it sells them to whereever its board allows it to sell and makes money. The profit is then shared by the owners.

The problem is when you don't put any money in the so called "joint venture" but get a stake for contributing technology and then refuse to give that technology and instead want to charge per engine then also lay claim to profits from the company. This is called fraud.

[Austin]

Dont they get improved electronics which they can leverage elsewhere?

Thats our IP , so yes they can leverage if we allow it , make some mulla and if they ask for it.

abhiti can you provide some credible evidence to prove Russia has not invested any money in Brahmos JV ?

Prem I am not too sure if Yakhont is still alive in any form except Brahmos , and it will be fitted on Groshkov class frigate.

[Prem Kumar]

Austin: how many Russian ships have Brahmos deployed? Zero

[John]

Russia invested 150 million in Brahmos corp and owns 49.5% of the company. We invested slightly more for 50.5% stake

Austin: how many Russian ships have Brahmos deployed? Zero

Well IN has only 2 vessels with Brahmos, will take while for either navies to deploy them since they are likely to be fitted only to existing vessels. It doesn't make much sense financially to replace Uran or Moskit with Brahmos. Brahmos will arm the new Russian Gorshkov class frigates.

[Singha]

a small article in today TOI:

LRDE and Idea Forge tested a 0.5kg MAV in Kolar yesterday. radius of 2km and can transmit video and snaps from camera. airframe is fiberglass.


---
LRDE btw has a radar test facility in Kolar whose google earth snaps are
posted here:
http://sniperz11.blogspot.com/2008/02/d ... ility.html

seems to be a intelligent place where shipping containers and trailers of
eqpt can be brought in, hooked to power and network , do their test and
move out.

http://bp2.blogger.com/_JWzHwZ9byEo/R-Y ... Radars.jpg

the dome prolly has a huge sliding door to accomodate any type of
radar

[Singha]

looking at the place on gearth, must have been a considerable base at
one time. one end has the radar dome but beyond that a extensive tree
shaped network of taxiways and parking areas which are now disused.

the other end has lots of buildings on a well laid network of roads and
what looks like a big guest house with a red roofed dining hall in the center! must be nice to live there for a spell esp if there is someone nice to talk to and cycle around with.

[JaiS]

India, Russia close to final testing of air-launched BrahMos

Indian and Russian scientists are close to final development and testing of the air-launched version of the BrahMos supersonic cruise missile.

A top Russian defence official said a new take-off engine for launching of the missile in air and at extreme high altitudes had been developed.

Alexander Leonov, Director of the Russian Machine Building Research and Production Center, said: "we are ready for test launches."

Leonov was quoted as saying by the Itar-Tass news agency that the initial test firing of the missile would be undertaken from the Sukhoi-30 MKI, but did not specify the exact dates.

Leonov for the first time disclosed that Moscow and New Delhi were also "very close" to designing and testing of the submarine launched version of the BrahMos missile.

[Rahul M]

by take-off engine he means booster ?

and at extreme high altitudes had been developed.