Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

[Arun_S]

There is nothing “half measure” in a fully functional and effective IRBM and a fully functional and effective nuclear warhead.

Now thats a billion dollar question , faith works when science fails

Austin: You hit the nail on the head.

I remember reading a long time back (surely in BR) that to prevent India from a retaliatory nuclear counter attack more than one Western nation or Russia China might team up and take out Indian sites. I know what I have written sounds cr@p but I will go look for it in the archives, i am just hoping that someone else remembers the article I am talking about and hopefully remember more info than the half baked gibberish I just wrote. The point is that it is not safe to assume that we have no threats apart from our immediate neighbourhood. In times of war especially a nuclear one you never know who might become friends and enemies. A while back, in Aero India, the F-16's with conformal tanks raised suspicions that it could be used for Pakis to launch an attack from UAE, bomb India and return to Pakistan. In such a scenario wouldn't UAE become an automatric enemy given that its soil has been used for an assault on India? We never know who the true friends are, we will know only in times of need.

Very very true.

Because Indian nuclear weapon tango is not "Two some", India second strike will be highly destabilizing globally (I.e. at least a "Four some tango" (Chinese "Four" is ~ symbol of death). So there i sno doubt that global powers will collectively prevent India from retaliating with a comprehensive pre-emptive strike. Check mate.

India can keep its Ahmisa thereafter, when other nation's Brahmastra (from ICBM range) has toast and pulverize Indian military and its IRBM (with 800 kg Indian brahmastra) to dust. The honorable Chief of Navel Staff can take solace that Indian Navy ships will not be broiled at sea while reset of India succumb to his wisdom.

What else do you expect when GoI is lead by "peaceful" "fearless leader" (doesn't it sound quixotic/oxymoron ?) and his hand picked people to command/lead the bureaucracy and military ?

The tango reference comes from non other than Bhishma Pita-mah of Indian Strategic policy.

Here is an excerpt detailing this very threat from my IDR article

WAY TO A CREDIBLE DETERRENT - © Arun Vishwakarma

Nuclear escalation with Pakistan can’t be considered in isolation. Pakistani nuclear weapons and posture is a proxy extension of China. As noted by senior Indian strategists that India-Pakistan nuclear scenario is not a two-some game. Meaning that in case of Pakistani first-strike the nuclear exchange will not be limited between India and Pakistan. A first-strike by Pakistan can only happen at Chinese behest , thus an Indian retaliatory second strike will be simultaneously addressed to Pakistan and China that unfolds into a wider and destabilizing scenario. Thus a nuclear retaliatory attack on China will involve Chinese taking down other challengers that will drag USA in the expanded nuclear exchange, with growing global destabilization. This could prompt global nuclear powers to destroy Indian nuclear capability by a collective first strike before India escalates and launch a second strike . India could thus be inviting a debilitating global strike even before it manages to launch a second strike. Thus Indian counterstrike has to be large dispersed force that can handle simultaneous threats from all directions and be unusually robust against simultaneous first strike by multiple nations.

[jaladipc]

Because Indian nuclear weapon tango is not "Two some", India second strike will be highly destabilizing globally (I.e. at least a "Four some tango" (Chinese "Four" is ~ symbol of death). So there i sno doubt that global powers will collectively prevent India from retaliating with a comprehensive pre-emptive strike. Check mate.

India can keep its Ahmisa thereafter, when other nation's Brahmastra (from ICBM range) has toast and pulverize Indian military and its IRBM (and 800 kg brahmastra) to dust. The honorable Chief of Navel Staff can take solace that Indian Navy ships will not be broiled at sea while reset of India succumb to his wisdom.

What else do you expect when GoI is lead by "peaceful" "fearless leader" (doesn't it sound quixotic/oxymoron ?) and his hand picked people to command/lead the bureaucracy and military ?

The tango reference comes from non other than Bhishma Pita-mah of Indian Strategic policy.

Here is an excerpt detailing this very threat from my IDR article

WAY TO A CREDIBLE DETERRENT - © Arun Vishwakarma

Nuclear escalation with Pakistan can’t be considered in isolation. Pakistani nuclear weapons and posture is a proxy extension of China. As noted by senior Indian strategists that India-Pakistan nuclear scenario is not a two-some game. Meaning that in case of Pakistani first-strike the nuclear exchange will not be limited between India and Pakistan. A first-strike by Pakistan can only happen at Chinese behest , thus an Indian retaliatory second strike will be simultaneously addressed to Pakistan and China that unfolds into a wider and destabilizing scenario. Thus a nuclear retaliatory attack on China will involve Chinese taking down other challengers that will drag USA in the expanded nuclear exchange, with growing global destabilization. This could prompt global nuclear powers to destroy Indian nuclear capability by a collective first strike before India escalates and launch a second strike . India could thus be inviting a debilitating global strike even before it manages to launch a second strike. Thus Indian counterstrike has to be large dispersed force that can handle simultaneous threats from all directions and be unusually robust against simultaneous first strike by multiple nations.

We are all forgetting the basic facts that the foundations of Republic of India were laid with bricks knows as AHimsa and ADharma.Henceforth the successive leaders and bureaucrats who are ruling the most ancient civilization.

I am rephrasing the most famous quote by french scholar Mr.Romaine Rolland "If there is one place on the face of earth where all the dreams of living men have found a home from the very earliest days when man began the dream of existence, it is India!" AS
" If there is a place on earth where all the dumbest of all politicians gather and notify the world that we too can rule a civilization with corruption and scandals and enormous fraud and fearing the enemy every second that when he is gonna attack our bank balances rather than the people who are keeping their faiths on us to protect them in every worst incident and the dreams of those people were held at cross roads of existence between hunger and victory,it is INDIA! "

And the way to credible deterrent against any enemy,be it china/paki/US has to be A Change in Leadership.

ITs not about how many bumbs we tested with how much yeild.Its about how much fear we created in the hearts of enemy.And a penny politicos like these nuts ruling India forsure creates a huge impact in the hearts of enemy in the otherway around.

And to compensate that worst thing we gotta have to encourage those few talented to come up with technologically superior weapon systems.

China is currently venturing into space with its mind blogging aspirations of creating a nuclear deterrent in space in case all the 3 on earth fails.This is the main concept behind its space station.we may not be able to reach that far given the economy we have at hand.But the very best alternative is nullifying the treat with another treat.

This is actually a new concept that came onto the drawing boards of many developed nations.Launching of 100`s of nano sats with nuclear payloads.Attached a small booster and able to sustain high temperatures when boosted from space to earth according to the pre-programmed flight paths at a given interval or else with a immediate change in trajectory.Since these are nano`s and a relative small 10-15kt BFF warhead inside and launched in 100`s at a time and stored in space with a life span of 10 years is not at all costly.And is a highly realible Second Strike.All the enemy can see is a shower of small nuclear warheads attacking their whole territory with no clue from where they are coming.

Some technical specs i came to know under project XX,

each sat is to weigh no more than 55- 70kg.comes with secured data links for change in concentrated attack. a small booster with enough propellant to kick the sat back on to earth when it receives a code RED.Can launch a min of 100 every time into a low polar orbit .They do take advantage of being undetected and targeted.Hence it concludes as, an ultimate nuclear strike on an enemy with no point of escape for him.

[Kanson]

Doesn’t make sense to antagonize/threaten people beyond a 5500 km radius who pose absolutely no threat to our nation.
Well does having ICBMs translate to threatening posture ?, infact countries who feel threatened by India's arsenal to me are the one's who harbor ill will against her and hence it becomes all the more important for us to acquire ICBMs.Going by Admiral's logic US,RU,UK and even FR are a threat to India. And can anyone give it to us in writing that 'xyz' country is not a threat to our country ?

I am surprised a country having been attacked numerous times as India and surrounded by some of the most wonderful and peaceful neighbors and world powers sitting on a high moral perch talks about not antagonizing certain 'countries'.

“We need credible minimum deterrence not against the whole world. We need the capability only with respect to our neighbourhood.”

This has been the India's line of argument since 1947 (or even before) and the results are for everyone to see in 1971 we witnessed certain country sending her fleet without any provocation what is the guarantee that it won't be repeated in future ? .

As for complying with the Chanakian school of thought one can always say that as per NPA logic since Indian Nukes are stone age 1000kg behemoths we need a large delivery vehicle with a huge payload even to hit IR targets.

Learning to stir the pot ?

see, all this talks and posturing is for pulic consumption. Those techies (not NPA) know what we are capable of and what we are upto but it is the lawmaker/politician/diplomat/strategist who creates trouble. These talks are mainly directed towards them. When the time has come it will be unvieled just like Arihant. And to be frank we have different concept of categorizing long range missiles.

As for the one's always cowering at the thought of India antagonizing the big -5 by acquiring ICBMs well I do not see how China suffered by going down that route .I don't think a country of 100 Billion plus population needs to justify its need for an ICBM in today's date ...or does it ?

Arms embargo. Though the reason stated is quite different.

[Kanson]

I remember reading a long time back (surely in BR) that to prevent India from a retaliatory nuclear counter attack more than one Western nation or Russia China might team up and take out Indian sites. I know what I have written sounds cr@p but I will go look for it in the archives, i am just hoping that someone else remembers the article I am talking about and hopefully remember more info than the half baked gibberish I just wrote. The point is that it is not safe to assume that we have no threats apart from our immediate neighbourhood. In times of war especially a nuclear one you never know who might become friends and enemies. A while back, in Aero India, the F-16's with conformal tanks raised suspicions that it could be used for Pakis to launch an attack from UAE, bomb India and return to Pakistan. In such a scenario wouldn't UAE become an automatric enemy given that its soil has been used for an assault on India? We never know who the true friends are, we will know only in times of need.

Very very true.

Because Indian nuclear weapon tango is not "Two some", India second strike will be highly destabilizing globally (I.e. at least a "Four some tango" (Chinese "Four" is ~ symbol of death). So there i sno doubt that global powers will collectively prevent India from retaliating with a comprehensive pre-emptive strike. Check mate.

India can keep its Ahmisa thereafter, when other nation's Brahmastra (from ICBM range) has toast and pulverize Indian military and its IRBM (with 800 kg Indian brahmastra) to dust. The honorable Chief of Navel Staff can take solace that Indian Navy ships will not be broiled at sea while reset of India succumb to his wisdom.

What else do you expect when GoI is lead by "peaceful" "fearless leader" (doesn't it sound quixotic/oxymoron ?) and his hand picked people to command/lead the bureaucracy and military ?

The tango reference comes from non other than Bhishma Pita-mah of Indian Strategic policy.

Here is an excerpt detailing this very threat from my IDR article

WAY TO A CREDIBLE DETERRENT - © Arun Vishwakarma

Nuclear escalation with Pakistan can’t be considered in isolation. Pakistani nuclear weapons and posture is a proxy extension of China. As noted by senior Indian strategists that India-Pakistan nuclear scenario is not a two-some game. Meaning that in case of Pakistani first-strike the nuclear exchange will not be limited between India and Pakistan. A first-strike by Pakistan can only happen at Chinese behest , thus an Indian retaliatory second strike will be simultaneously addressed to Pakistan and China that unfolds into a wider and destabilizing scenario. Thus a nuclear retaliatory attack on China will involve Chinese taking down other challengers that will drag USA in the expanded nuclear exchange, with growing global destabilization. This could prompt global nuclear powers to destroy Indian nuclear capability by a collective first strike before India escalates and launch a second strike . India could thus be inviting a debilitating global strike even before it manages to launch a second strike. Thus Indian counterstrike has to be large dispersed force that can handle simultaneous threats from all directions and be unusually robust against simultaneous first strike by multiple nations.

Actualy this concept was taken from Cold war strategy, I mean the "Bhishma". Both Americans and Russians talked abt this.

[Kanson]

One poster said that apart from the neighborhood we dont have anymore enemies.But its not at all true. We do have enemies in the persian gulf.We do have enemies in the western europe.But these are black sheep's.they only surface when we are out there for help or when we are totally devastated.

Everyone cant be lumped under one category. There are declared, potential, emerging and dormant adversaries. Eachone needs different methods.

[Kanson]

There is nothing “half measure” in a fully functional and effective IRBM and a fully functional and effective nuclear warhead.

Now thats a billion dollar question , faith works when science fails

Austin ji, what you said is applicable for western countries. In India, before every Agni launch, coconuts are broken, missile replica was taken to temple, lending the name of Buddha and all these things happens. Here both faith and science works together. Infact our religion( I mean Hinduism) is interwined with science.

[nachiket]

Now thats a billion dollar question , faith works when science fails

Austin ji, what you said is applicable for western countries. In India, before every Agni launch, coconuts are broken, missile replica was taken to temple, lending the name of Buddha and all these things happens. Here both faith and science works together. Infact our religion( I mean Hinduism) is interwined with science.

I think Austin was referring to our TN bum test which fizzled (allegedly). Hence the "faith" in "fully functional" nuke warhead.

[negi]

Kanson if every GOI utterance is to be over looked as 'oh..this is meant for public consumption or strategic posturing ;then there is no point in discussing anything on the forum in fact one needn't clarify anything as everything was merely meant for public consumption as for strategic posturing well GUBO comes to my mind

On a serious note it is this posturing and sensitivity to 'log kya kahenge' that needs to change. I am not talking about Admiral's comments in particular but wish to highlight this tendency of ours to make a special effort to portray a meek and docile image even when not required.

As for the TN test I believe the GOI's official press release as I don't find any scientific proof furbished to prove otherwise ;hence my faith in the GOI in this regards.

[Arun_S]

Actualy this concept was taken from Cold war strategy, I mean the "Bhishma". Both Americans and Russians talked abt this.

IMHO the question is not novelty or originality BUT applicablity to Indian strategic deterrence, in perticular to the general threat perception being bandied about by new media and psy-op shops that Indian defence should be viewed in narrow perspective of :
1. exchange with one of the neighbours AND
2. one does need to to worry or fear of far off countries that are not in the neighbourhood.

To be honest these folks must remove their narrow vision bionoculars (or Blinders) and see the real picture with naked eyes, and they will see an entirely different world.

Am surpised that foriegn media paid Vishal Thaper that was slave master for "sign the 123" campaign is now talking of half baked deterrence.

[amit]

And the way to credible deterrent against any enemy,be it china/paki/US has to be A Change in Leadership.

ITs not about how many bumbs we tested with how much yeild.Its about how much fear we created in the hearts of enemy.And a penny politicos like these nuts ruling India forsure creates a huge impact in the hearts of enemy in the otherway around.

A Change in Leadership?

And pray where will that new leadership of fearless beings who thumb their noses to the rest of the world and make them quake in the their dhotis, pants, salwars, Mao suits and whatever else the world wears spring from?

Perhaps we've forgotten the Indian way of doing things.

If I remember correctly when we first got our Agni missile with a stated range of 2,500km with a 1000 kg payload, we told the world "that's it we don't need anything more" our minimum is satisfied.

Then a few years later we quietly went for a Agni with a 3,000 km range with a 1000 kg warhead. Again "bas, aur kuch nehi chaiye".

Now we're hearing of a Agni with a 5,000 km range with a 1000kg warhead. That will be the all we need as we don't want to antagonise our friends who live beyond 5,000 km.

A few years later?

And in between we've had hazar Prithvi missile launches so much so the Deaf And Dumb folks have been having a great laugh at our "stupid" SDRE scientists who couldn't even get a 250 km missile "with ancient technology" right while their TFTA missiles are ready to fly even without a test. Of course we're only now beginning to comprehend why we needed so may Prithvi tests.

The problem as I see it is that we're too much enamoured by the Western way of doing things, even the Chinese way. And that is to be a show off with all bluster and tough talk even if that hides incompetence. Also throw in to the mix sleek videos and powerpoint presentations by camouflage wearing PYTs. That's the only thing that enamours us.

The Indian way of doing things, with an apologetic smile, folded hands and all talk about modesty, Ahimsa and Dharma and "Minimum stuff we need" don't impress BRF's blueblood jingos.

After all why should it? We are always willing to believe that folks who've dedicated their whole lives to the cause of India and its military might, instead of going for profitable careers, are at the worst liars and at the least totally incompetent. Aren't they political scientists? And isn't the Armed forces filled with time servers who are beholden to their political masters?

We need a Change in Leadership!

[csharma]

And in between we've had hazar Prithvi missile launches so much so the Deaf And Dumb folks have been having a great laugh at our "stupid" SDRE scientists who couldn't even get a 250 km missile "with ancient technology" right while their TFTA missiles are ready to fly even without a test. Of course we're only now beginning to comprehend why we needed so may Prithvi tests.

Can you elaborate why India needed so many Prithvi tests. Thanks.

[Singha]

prithvi tests and 2m diameter trishul tests are essential for MND. more the better.

[kittoo]

And in between we've had hazar Prithvi missile launches so much so the Deaf And Dumb folks have been having a great laugh at our "stupid" SDRE scientists who couldn't even get a 250 km missile "with ancient technology" right while their TFTA missiles are ready to fly even without a test. Of course we're only now beginning to comprehend why we needed so may Prithvi tests.

Can you elaborate why India needed so many Prithvi tests. Thanks.

If I am right in guessing meanings of hidden words on BRF, he meant that those so many of Prithvi tests weren't actually Prithvi tests but rather were tests for other, much improved and long range, missiles. It was done to keep the international nose out and it raises little suspicion. I am just a noob here so my knowledge is that much only, I don't exactly know which test was genuinely Prithvi one or what missiles we actually tested in name of Prithvi.

[csharma]

I wonder why would India conduct so many tests under the guise of Prithvi. We know that India tested SLBM multiple times before announcing it to the world and of course people in the business knew about it.

So, if India tests some other advanced missile and calls it a Prithvi launch, wouldn;t other countries know about it through satellites and other intel sources.

Why can't India do unannouced tests of new missiles under development?

[Rahul M]

both prithvi and trishul were tested again and again (and again)

Why can't India do unannouced tests of new missiles under development?

we have an agreement with TSP on pre-notification of BM tests.
being apparently open about it is a better way of hiding than denial ? especially when foreign sat based sensors will anyway find out 'some' missile tested.

[amit]

we have an agreement with TSP on pre-notification of BM tests.
being apparently open about it is a better way of hiding than denial ? especially when foreign sat based sensors will anyway find out 'some' missile tested.

CSharma,

An answer to your question a few posts ago.

The key, IMVHO, is in the bolded part of Rahul Guru's statement.

[csharma]

Thanks guys. I think I get what you guys are saying.

[vera_k]

Why can't India do unannouced tests of new missiles under development?

Too dangerous. If someone detects the launch and decides India is attacking, they will return the favour by deciding to launch against Indian targets.

[Arun_S]

I have corrected the Wiki pages to correctly reflect Sagaika/Shourya range to 1,900 km @ 180 Kg. The previous numbers were incorrectly stated as 2,200 km @ 150 kg, and referred to my Sagaika aritcle as reference for those figures.

[csharma]

Well, there are several reports about India testing its SLBM prior to making the program public i.e telling the media that they were testing a SLBM. It was tested in pontoons near the testing range in Chandipur, Orissa, I believe.

[vera_k]

IIRC, those were the solid fuelled prithvi tests.

[nrshah]

No need to worry abt Mr.Mehta`s comments regarding ICBM capping.

No matter what if one agrees or not,US will be our final enemy far away from sub continent.Hence we do need a brahmastra that can be aimed at.

Yes I agree, We will see America V/s India match...

-Nitin

[Drevin]

As far I am concerned we should make an icbm no matter what. But I think Congress may delay... and delay.... and finally make us forget about it.

[Dileep]

Ref, pritivi tests..

We have treaty obligations to notify the neighbours. We have ICAO obligations to issue NOTAMs. We have obligation to notify shipping. So, we can't simply do it unannounced. As it is the Indonesians complained about a test, because their stoopid civil aviation authority failed to give the NOTAM to the Garuda pilot.

But, once you test, it is a very tough call to find out what exactly was tested. Data like the dimensions and fuel type are very difficult to deduce accurately from remote sensing. NEither can be the actual range it flew.

[Drevin]

What are you afraid off exactly ..... I cant seem to understand. I doubt we will be sanctioned if we build one ..... Its not a nuclear test. And offcourse we will notify every neighbouring country about "n" month in advance.

[Gerard]

both prithvi and trishul were tested again and again (and again)

Don't forget the numerous tests of the Lakshya PTA. This was tested every other Friday, unlike the monthly Prithvi and annual "Solid Prithvi" tests.

[Kanson]

Kanson if every GOI utterance is to be over looked as 'oh..this is meant for public consumption or strategic posturing ;then there is no point in discussing anything on the forum in fact one needn't clarify anything as everything was merely meant for public consumption as for strategic posturing well GUBO comes to my mind

Thats why wise people like you are here in this forum to discern. I also mentioned about INS Arihant as an example.

On a serious note it is this posturing and sensitivity to 'log kya kahenge' that needs to change. I am not talking about Admiral's comments in particular but wish to highlight this tendency of ours to make a special effort to portray a meek and docile image even when not required.

I guess, you learned about the tech denials immediately after Agni test. Its meant for this type of problem. Regular invitation of military attaches to wargames quell any such image you describe.

As for the TN test I believe the GOI's official press release as I don't find any scientific proof furbished to prove otherwise ;hence my faith in the GOI in this regards.

Its good your are taking it that way. To be honest, it doesn't matter what a stand one takes. Problem is lack of discussion in this forum from every angle on the subject, objectively while this forum likes to make statements on the subject. In fact if one gives some serious thoughts about the test many things can be understood. Important thing is the objectivity of test. Let me say this, three test were carried out simultaneously on the first day, one being 15kt pure fission, another with same yield 15kt but FBF enclosed with secondary and third is a sub-kiloton. Its not hard to guess what is the makeup of the third one if we can listen to AK's statement. He mentioned about testing samething several times. One can talk about the significance of this. The way it is tested is unique. One can get fair understanding that this POK-II is carried out not only for proof testing the existing weapon but to proof test and further enhance the understanding of the subject. In fact lot of things happened after that.

[Kanson]

I think Austin was referring to our TN bum test which fizzled (allegedly). Hence the "faith" in "fully functional" nuke warhead.

Glad you used the word 'allegedly' and saved me a lot of trouble.

[Kanson]

Actualy this concept was taken from Cold war strategy, I mean the "Bhishma". Both Americans and Russians talked abt this.

IMHO the question is not novelty or originality BUT applicablity to Indian strategic deterrence, in perticular to the general threat perception being bandied about by new media and psy-op shops that Indian defence should be viewed in narrow perspective of :
1. exchange with one of the neighbours AND
2. one does need to to worry or fear of far off countries that are not in the neighbourhood.

To be honest these folks must remove their narrow vision bionoculars (or Blinders) and see the real picture with naked eyes, and they will see an entirely different world.

Am surpised that foriegn media paid Vishal Thaper that was slave master for "sign the 123" campaign is now talking of half baked deterrence.

I guess, i left the post incomplete. I'm trying to say, this scenario was not unique to India but this was thought as an extension of MAD as perceived by Superpowers as India became N-power.

There are certain holes in thinking it in that way as the concept of mutually assured destruction received some dent with the proliferation of ABMs.

[Arun_S]

Its good your are taking it that way. To be honest, it doesn't matter what a stand one takes. Problem is lack of discussion in this forum from every angle on the subject, objectively while this forum likes to make statements on the subject. In fact if one gives some serious thoughts about the test many things can be understood. Important thing is the objectivity of test. Let me say this, three test were carried out simultaneously on the first day, one being 15kt pure fission, another with same yield 15kt but FBF enclosed with secondary and third is a sub-kiloton.

It is refreshing to hear that from you.
Sincerely
-Arun S

[Kanson]

Its good your are taking it that way. To be honest, it doesn't matter what a stand one takes. Problem is lack of discussion in this forum from every angle on the subject, objectively while this forum likes to make statements on the subject. In fact if one gives some serious thoughts about the test many things can be understood. Important thing is the objectivity of test. Let me say this, three test were carried out simultaneously on the first day, one being 15kt pure fission, another with same yield 15kt but FBF enclosed with secondary and third is a sub-kiloton.

It is refreshing to hear that from you.
Sincerely
-Arun S

I listed the yield only for the primary.

[Kanson]

From Wiki:

Shakti I

A two stage thermonuclear device with a boosted fission primary, its yield was downgraded from 200 KT(theoretical) to 45 KT for test purposes. The thermonuclear device tested at Pokhran was not an actual warhead. It was a device that was designed mainly to produce data to analyze the performance of India's Hydrogen bomb technology for future computer simulations and actual weaponisation.

Shakti II

A pure fission device using the Plutonium implosion design with a yield of 15 KT. The device tested was an actual nuclear warhead that can be delivered by bombers or fighters and also mounted on a missile. The warhead was an improved, lightweight and miniaturized version of the device tested in 1974. Scientists at BARC had been working to improve the 1974 design for many years. Data from the 1974 test was used to carry out computer simulations using the indigenous Param supercomputer to improve the design. The 1998 test was intended to prove the validity of the improved designs.

Shakti III

An experimental boosted fission device that used reactor grade Plutonium for its primary with a yield of 0.3 KT. This test device was used to test only the primary stage. It did not contain any tritium required to boost the fission. This test was designed to study the possibility of using reactor grade plutonium in warheads and also to prove India's expertise in controlling and damping a nuclear explosion in order to achieve a low (sub-kiloton) yield.

Nothing is new but any thoughts abt the significance of these tests.

[Arun_S]

"Kanson said":

• Important thing is the objectivity of test. Let me say this, three test were carried out simultaneously on the first day, one being 15kt pure fission, another with same yield 15kt but FBF enclosed with secondary and third is a sub-kiloton.

It is refreshing to hear that from you.
Sincerely
-Arun S

I listed the yield only for the primary.

Where did you say that in your original post? You post said yield of the three tests, and not the fission yield of the tests.

Hope you did not catch the ddm flu !

[Singha]

from livefist.blogspot.com

Sunday, August 09, 2009
Agni-III's Final Development Test This October
The Indian Agni-III intermediate range ballistic missile (IRBM) is scheduled to undergo its fourth and final development-phase test-firing in October this year. The last test of the missile was over a year ago on May 7 last year (see photo). Scientists at the Advanced Systems Laboratory (ASL). Significantly, according to sources, this will be the final trial of the Agni-III's development phase. Next year, the ASL and Integrated Test Range (ITR) will make a full effort to conduct two sets of user trials. Godspeed to ASL Director Avinash Chander and his team.

[Singha]

is the A3 equivalent to the DF-31 or the latter is bigger/longer range?

A3-TD [per BR] - 16.7m x 2m, 48t, 2 stage, all-solid fuel, 3xmirv, 5500km @ 1500kg
(A3-A with 3 stages proposed to increase range to 8800km)

DF-31 [wiki] - 13m x 2.25m, 42t, 3 stage, 3xmirv, 7200km (11200km with bigger DF31A or maybe DF31A has a reduced payload?)

to me it seems we can achieve tech parity with chinese DF31A if we can deploy the A3-A
(3 stages) on a its rail TEL.

this would be a significant achievement as we have generally lagged behind prc in solid and
liquid side of civilian heavy rockets too.

coming to submarine launch,

JL-2 [wiki] : 13m x 2m, 23+t, mirv, 2 stage, liquid fuel 2nd stage ,wiki claims 14000km
with 10 mirv's which is astonishing claim for a 2 stage missile and full payload.


A3SL - 12m x 2m, 37t, 3 stage, mirv, 5000-11200km depending on payload

something looks seriously panda-std looking at specs of JL2 and comparing to Arun sir's
well reasoned A3SL physics and range estimates

whatever be the real scene on JL2- technologically we'd have finally closed the gap and
caught up if we can deploy A3-A and A3-SL within 5 years and ramp up the launch platform
side of thinks.

[Gerard]

Where is India wrt high energy solid propellants?

The Topol-M for example is 22.7m x 1.95m / 47.2 tons / 3 stages / 11000km range / 1.2 ton throw weight.
What is needed to get that sort of performance from those missile dimensions?

[prataparudra]

Does India have any gravity nuclear bombs to drop from bombers?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gravity_bomb

[swapna]

Where is India wrt high energy solid propellants?

The Topol-M for example is 22.7m x 1.95m / 47.2 tons / 3 stages / 11000km range / 1.2 ton throw weight.
What is needed to get that sort of performance from those missile dimensions?

Dont worry too much about Agni missiles. Akula is coming with all Russian Goodies.

[Gerard]

No goodies that violate MTCR...

[AmitR]

Where is India wrt high energy solid propellants?

The Topol-M for example is 22.7m x 1.95m / 47.2 tons / 3 stages / 11000km range / 1.2 ton throw weight.
What is needed to get that sort of performance from those missile dimensions?

Dont worry too much about Agni missiles. Akula is coming with all Russian Goodies.

They are giving the Vodka bottles also.
I've heard that one bottle can launch a missile to 1000km.