Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Shameek · Post by **Shameek** » 04 Oct 2009 03:01

BrahMos tests hitting land and sea targets. Very impressive.

[youtube]JKIvnseOQgs&feature=related[/youtube]

AdityaM · Post by **AdityaM** » 04 Oct 2009 04:04

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2HDVhX7PZHg

Isn't the target supposed to be destroyed? The wall remains standing.
It does prove the accuracy, but the potency? Or could it be a missile with no explosive warhead?

NRao · Post by **NRao** » 04 Oct 2009 04:47

Well, in both cases, the targets have been beefed up. The ship has a screen and the wall has a metallic triangle to help the missile better recognize.

So, these tests must have been "early tests". The ones that were conducted for the IA, the first that they said "failed", now, that was some test. To hit a building within a clutter of other buildings is something.

Cain Marko · Post by **Cain Marko** » 04 Oct 2009 09:19

Potency? Plenty i'd say. What sort of war head (if any) was the brahmos carrying in the tests where accuracy was being tested? Based on speed alone (KE), the damage is significant, esp. in terms of penetration iirc. Put a nice explosive 300kg warhead on the missile, it flies in @ 2.5M, the damage will be significant.

That IN frigate which had to bear the brunt of a brahmos test did not last more than a few minutes after being struck. Sunk pretty quick it seems.

Plus its ability to manouver late - damn, that is one crazy mijjile. Only the Kloob seems crazier going in slow and then suddenly accelerating well above sound speed in terminal stage - scary.

CM.

andy B · Post by **andy B** » 04 Oct 2009 09:28

AdityaM wrote:http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2HDVhX7PZHg

Isn't the target supposed to be destroyed? The wall remains standing.
It does prove the accuracy, but the potency? Or could it be a missile with no explosive warhead?

^^^ Take a cricket cork ball and go in front of a wall, hit the wall as hard as you can...although there will be no massive damage in all probability it will take a little chip off the wall...now think of that cricket ball having a weight in tonnes (depending on how much fuel it uses up during the flight and depending on how far the target is, how much manouvering is required to the target ityadi) add to that a 300 kg explosive warhead and you will get the answer...

I guess in a way its good that (depending on the type of target) it will ensure a quick and painless death where everything will be over in the blink of an eye...

Rahul M · Post by **Rahul M** » 04 Oct 2009 09:32

there was no warhead in either of the tests meant to gauge accuracy. I am assuming dummy warheads were used to maintain c.g.

rohitvats · Post by **rohitvats** » 04 Oct 2009 18:04

That is the most awe-inspiring video I've seen in a while. Truly amazing. If the kinetic enery can produce that (hole in the ship), God help the Paki Navy.I feel sorry for the poor souls. And as for the LA version, bye-bye II Corps HQ (PA) and everything else in between.

Rahul M · Post by **Rahul M** » 04 Oct 2009 18:49

almost 9 times the energy of a subsonic missile of equivalent weight == massive damage to ship superstructure. this is one aspect of supersonic missiles people usually forget.

neeraj · Post by **neeraj** » 04 Oct 2009 19:22

This video of brahmos is the best of the lot - damn the ship just got ripped apart

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JKIvnseOQgs

Shameek · Post by **Shameek** » 04 Oct 2009 20:44

^^ I posted this just a few posts back. Please check before posting.

Anujan · Post by **Anujan** » 04 Oct 2009 21:43

Cain Marko wrote:Potency? Plenty i'd say. What sort of war head (if any) was the brahmos carrying in the tests where accuracy was being tested? Based on speed alone (KE), the damage is significant, esp. in terms of penetration iirc. Put a nice explosive 300kg warhead on the missile, it flies in @ 2.5M, the damage will be significant.

That IN frigate which had to bear the brunt of a brahmos test did not last more than a few minutes after being struck. Sunk pretty quick it seems.

Plus its ability to manouver late - damn, that is one crazy mijjile. Only the Kloob seems crazier going in slow and then suddenly accelerating well above sound speed in terminal stage - scary.

CM.

Nitpicking. That was not a frigate, it was INS Sindhudurg, a decommissioned durg class corvette. The BR page on this class is here: http://www.bharat-rakshak.com/NAVY/Ship ... Class.html

Arun_S · Post by **Arun_S** » 04 Oct 2009 21:44

Cross post from Pok-II thread.

Arun_S wrote:Dear friends, please note that I stand by my statements on BR, and time will reveal the self evident truth. Interesting times lie ahead, and matters will become clearer as major events unfold.

It is sad to note that BRF no longer represent "Bharat" and has become a propaganda media for GoI official line; an echo-chamber lead by Shiv.

I hereby withdraw from BR and BRF.

My thanks to everybody for your support, discussions and bearing with me.

There is a real "Bharat" out there to serve, and I urge my friends to look up to it.

I ask the powers to be on BRF to leave my last post intact.

Thank you
Arun_S

Shreeman · Post by **Shreeman** » 04 Oct 2009 21:51

Arun_S wrote:Cross post from Pok-II thread.
Arun_S wrote:Dear friends, please note that I stand by my statements on BR, and time will I ask
......
the powers to be on BRF to leave my last post intact.
Arun_S

We are really great at scoring self-goals, from the look of things. Congratulations to the remaining moderators, and other perpetrators of the Pok-XXX mess.

Kailash · Post by **Kailash** » 05 Oct 2009 11:29

India buying Javelin

Kailash · Post by **Kailash** » 05 Oct 2009 11:35

Also found an article in New Indian express about series of "contemplated" missile tests due to perceived threat from china.

Prithvi - Oct 20-25th
Agni-II - Oct 29 (dont remember specific date)
Brahmos - Nov 7 - 16
K-15 - end of Nov

Could not find the link online..
Added later - link

dinesha · Post by **dinesha** » 05 Oct 2009 11:36

Prithvi, Agni-II ready for skies
http://www.expressbuzz.com/edition/stor ... FeEOBkuKw=
Hemant Kumar RoutFirst Published : 05 Oct 2009 04:59:00 AM ISTLast Updated : 05 Oct 2009 09:56:17 AM IST

BALASORE: Days after China’s display of military might, India has lined up a series of tests of some of the country’s most sophisticated missiles over the next two months.

The Defence Research and Development Organisation (DRDO) will conduct the tests of Prithvi and Agni-II in October. The trials of BrahMos and K-15 will be held in November. And from Monday, the Integrated Test Range (ITR) at Chandipur in Balasore will host a three-day target simulation exercise involving pilotless target aircraft (PTA) for the Indian Air Force. Official sources said these tests have nothing to do with China’s display. Preparations for the tests have already begun and scientists are leaving no stone unturned for the successful trials of these missiles, considered as most powerful in the country’s arsenal. Though all the tests are user-trials, the focus will be on Agni-II and K-15 missiles.

``All the four missiles have already been tested successfully from the ITR and apart from K-15, other three have been inducted in the Army. But the fresh trials will gauge the accuracy of these missiles which will be tested with some new technologies,’’ a defence scientist said.

Sources said scientists involved with Agni-II programme are working meticulously to make this mission successful as the last user-trial of Agni-II on May 19 was not up to the mark. While K-15, Prithvi, BrahMos __ all land versions __ will be test-fired from the ITR at Chandipur, Agni-II will be tested from the Wheelers Island off Dhamra coast in Bhadrak district. ``The test range is ready and range integration process will start from Monday for the proposed tests’’, the sources said.

After the trials, DRDO’s next test will be India’s most powerful and longest - 3,500 km range Agni- III missile - early next year.

Avinash R · Post by **Avinash R** » 05 Oct 2009 17:51

dinesha wrote:Hemant Kumar Rout

Sources said scientists involved with Agni-II programme are working meticulously to make this mission successful as the last user-trial of Agni-II on May 19 was not up to the mark.

Hemant continues to misreport the successful Agni II test firing as failure. Seems desperate to bag this year's DDM award.

Agni-II tested in ‘war-like scenario’
http://www.indianexpress.com/news/agnii ... io/462749/
Posted: Wednesday, May 20, 2009 at 0234 hrs

For the first time, the Strategic Forces Team of the Indian Army has carried out a training trial of the nuclear capable Agni-II missile, which has a range of over 2,000 km. The Defence Ministry announced that the trial at Wheeler Island off the Orissa coast was carried out by the Strategic Forces team, which is responsible for handling India's nuclear arsenal. Incidentally, the announcement is a departure from the norms of the government, which has not been very public about the test firing of nuclear-capable missiles by the Strategic Forces.

Sources said that the trial was a success and the missile was fired with “clockwork precision” from a rail-based mobile launcher. The event was also witnessed by senior officers of the Defence Research and Development Organisation (DRDO).
...

caesar · Post by **caesar** » 05 Oct 2009 18:04

People any news about NIRBHAY.It was supposed to be tested by 2009 end.

Gerard · Post by **Gerard** » 06 Oct 2009 04:30

Strategic national producer Midhani on high growth curve

Anujan · Post by **Anujan** » 06 Oct 2009 04:46

Avinash R wrote: Hemant continues to misreport the successful Agni II test firing as failure. Seems desperate to bag this year's DDM award.

He turned out to be right last time ...

Agni-III, with China in range, to be tested
Rajat Pandit
20 June 2009
The tri-Service Strategic Forces Command is still engaged in conducting "training user-trials'' of the 2,000-km Agni-II. The first such Agni-II trial last month "failed to meet the laid-down flight parameters'', say sources.

uddu · Post by **uddu** » 06 Oct 2009 07:10

Warning. RP is the person who got BR DDM award.

dinesha · Post by **dinesha** » 06 Oct 2009 09:23

DRDO to testfire most sophisticated missiles
TNN 5 October 2009, 11:16pm IST
http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/news ... 091552.cms

Sources said the scientists involved in the Agni-II programme are working overtime to make this mission successful, as their failure in the last user trial on May 19 had fetched them wide criticism.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 06 Oct 2009 09:33

uddu wrote:Warning. RP is the person who got BR DDM award.

We have shot many messengers to our regret.

Gagan · Post by **Gagan** » 06 Oct 2009 10:14

Maybe we'll hear more about the Agni-2 failure after the next launch.

A-la the first A-3 launch failure which was corrected by the new thermal sleeve just above the nozzle. DRDO was quite candid about the failure and the successful corrective measures it took.

csharma · Post by **csharma** » 06 Oct 2009 10:19

Wasn't a Agni III test planned for October. The latest report makes no mention of that.

H.B.Krishna · Post by **H.B.Krishna** » 06 Oct 2009 23:14

Arun_S wrote:Cross post from Pok-II thread.
Arun_S wrote:Dear friends, please note that I stand by my statements on BR, and time will reveal the self evident truth. Interesting times lie ahead, and matters will become clearer as major events unfold.

It is sad to note that BRF no longer represent "Bharat" and has become a propaganda media for GoI official line; an echo-chamber lead by Shiv.

I hereby withdraw from BR and BRF.

My thanks to everybody for your support, discussions and bearing with me.

There is a real "Bharat" out there to serve, and I urge my friends to look up to it.

I ask the powers to be on BRF to leave my last post intact.

Thank you
Arun_S

I am left speechless. A forum that has been the hallmark of Strategic analysis, Patriotism and what not, is loosing some of it's pillars? Nothing personal, all I can say is things have changed a lot since those informative years of missile technology discussions...
Gradually I am finding myself resigning to some "realities" (call it change in belief) or am I getting older....sigh!
Just a personal POV from a increasingly confused average Indian who happens to be a avid BRFite...

AshokS · Post by **AshokS** » 07 Oct 2009 10:19

Everyone on BR knows that Arun was one of the pillars of BR and his analysis on space, missiles, and other strategic tech (including the PAD, etc) gave BR the respect it enjoys today. Far too often his musings and predictions, which would be easy to discount as being unsubstantiated or far fetched, would somehow magically materialize a few year later with remarkable accuracy.

BR has lost a lot of talent over the years due to hardheaded moderator and forum members. If this forum wants to stay relevant and attract talent, then it needs to foister an environment so these folks can stay and we can all enjoy the fruits of their labor...ordinary forum members may mistaken it for excessive jingoism, or sometimes madness...but make no mistake as far as this forum goes, its the few on the forum that have the knowledge or have done the homework on the topic, as Arun did, that make this forum woth visting. Their contributions have shaped BR, and they are the true Rakshaks.

This forum has offered a lot over the years, I remember joining in 1997 when we all wondered if India had thermonukes....its funny that we are still talking about that 12 years later. This forum also has a tendency to squash controversial points of view or shy from the truth when the discussion is contentious - if you want to make this forum serve as a vehicle to disseminate the truth, then I suggest you don't chase away the talent.

My two paise...

bchatnani · Post by **bchatnani** » 07 Oct 2009 21:00

As per this news report, India is in the advanced stages of evaluating Javelin anti-tank missile for large scale procurement without any international tenders or extensive field trials. Foreign maal always seems to trumph Indian. What would this mean for Nag?

India's next big buy is a missile from US

The army headquarters is in the advanced stages of evaluating the Javelin anti-tank missile for large-scale induction. If the missile suits India, it could lead to another FMS (foreign military sale) deal with the US, without competitive international tendering, and possibly even without extensive field trials.

sourab_c · Post by **sourab_c** » 07 Oct 2009 21:13

bchatnani wrote: What would this mean for Nag?

I don't think it would affect Nag, Javelin is a man portable missile.

Gagan · Post by **Gagan** » 07 Oct 2009 22:32

The Nirbhay was supposed to be tested in 2009. No news so far.

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 08 Oct 2009 00:55

drdo was planning for man portable nag. is it not?

Gaur · Post by **Gaur** » 08 Oct 2009 00:58

^^ If so, that is news to me. Can you provide some links?

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 08 Oct 2009 01:22

Parijat Gaur wrote:^^ If so, that is news to me. Can you provide some links?

Gaur ji, you could have done the same as I did.. google, cause it has a bigger brain cache. thanks this link was still alive:

http://www.thehindubusinessline.com/200 ... 700400.htm Missile scientists will also start working on the third generation, `Man Portable' Nag very soon. It would weigh less than 14 kg.

sourab_c · Post by **sourab_c** » 08 Oct 2009 04:55

SaiK wrote:drdo was planning for man portable nag. is it not?

Sir,

At 42kg, for Nag to be man portable, it would involve developing new launchers, new ammunition and some major design modifications. The extent of modifications that the seeker would require is beyond my knowledge.

Somehow I doubt that the IA is willing to wait another two decades for all that to happen, hence the decision to go for the Javelins.

darshan · Post by **darshan** » 08 Oct 2009 09:55

Can somebody compare Nag's and Javelin's capabilities? It would have been nice to have Arun_S around here.
And, hopefully, this time my request will not be ignored.

rajeshks · Post by **rajeshks** » 08 Oct 2009 11:02

darshan wrote:Can somebody compare Nag's and Javelin's capabilities? It would have been nice to have Arun_S around here.
And, hopefully, this time my request will not be ignored.

Other differences are longer range for Nag(7-8 for air version) and Javelin has direct attack mode to target buildings and low-flying helicopters.

hanumadu · Post by **hanumadu** » 08 Oct 2009 11:07

H.B.Krishna wrote:
I am left speechless. A forum that has been the hallmark of Strategic analysis, Patriotism and what not, is loosing some of it's pillars? Nothing personal, all I can say is things have changed a lot since those informative years of missile technology discussions...
Gradually I am finding myself resigning to some "realities" (call it change in belief) or am I getting older....sigh!
Just a personal POV from a increasingly confused average Indian who happens to be a avid BRFite...

BR has lost its most informative source on missiles now. And on the POK 2 issue, things are turning out to be as he said. BR has always been a place for disparate opinions. But in this case I can't help thinking that a concerted effort has been made to drown his voice.

Baldev · Post by **Baldev** » 09 Oct 2009 08:08

Kartik wrote: going by your attitude of finding excuses for why a Brahmos variant cannot be used for nuclear strike, I'd say that the Harpoon II is good enough for anti-ship strike and the IAF has Jaguar IM's with these missiles specially for the anti-shipping role. so why even bother with Brahmos for the Su-30MKI with all the flight testing and integration if there is already another missile in the IAF that can do the role ?

you haven't given a single good reason for why a lighter Brahmos variant used for nuke strike, like the ASMP-A would be a bad idea. if developed indigenously, there is no 300 km MTCR restriction, and a lower max speed will give higher range if designed well, even for a smaller missile with a much smaller booster. as for range, the Rafale's unrefuelled range is good enough to strike China, thank you very much and with IFR can strike even deeper. and if all you want is that someone says that the MKI should carry it, then there you go- put it on the MKI to carry it deep into China- happy now ?

I'm still waiting for you to back up your claim that the air-launched Brahmos is optimized for anti-shipping missions.

brahmos is multi purpose missile means can also be used for nuke strike purposes its just the warhead type which can be either nuke or conventional

harpoon 2 or KH35 or subsonic club AShM can be engaged by naval SAM systems carried on frigates and destroyers that why there is need to bother air launched brahmos for su30mki

su30 is more capable platform for anti ship role than jaguar IM

lighter air launched brahmos variant for nuke strike like ASMP A would not be a bad idea but again against whom this variant would be useful? pak or china

against western neighbor there are other platforms for nuke strike like land attack brahmos or agni 1 or future nirbhay or prithvi so why bother to fit nuke warhead on air launched brahmos in this case

even if there is lighter air launched brahmos variant with increased range it will again be useless against china

against china again there are agni 2/3 and air launched lighter variant of brahmos or ASMP A on su30 or rafale useless just because there are chinese intercepters one has to deal with and must not forget chinese missile inventory too

also don't forget su27 and su30 and j11 also have quite good range to cover whole northern india without refueling

so only best option for air launched brahmos is anti ship role as primary function because subsonic anti ship missiles can be intercepted by naval SAM and ballistic missiles are not optimized for anti ship roles warhead can be nuke or conventional

secondary function for air launched brahmos will be precision attack warhead can be nuke or conventional.

a_kumar · Post by **a_kumar** » 09 Oct 2009 08:25

hanumadu wrote: BR has lost its most informative source on missiles now. And on the POK 2 issue, things are turning out to be as he said. BR has always been a place for disparate opinions. But in this case I can't help thinking that a concerted effort has been made to drown his voice.

I have seen lot of folks go down, but this loss hurts bad!! Will we ever know what happened behind the scenes!

sumshyam · Post by **sumshyam** » 09 Oct 2009 08:33

I read somewhere...that we are testing missiles for user trial this month.

Anyone with some ground news...???