Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

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Re: Indian Missile Technology Discussion

Postby karan_mc » 14 Oct 2009 08:00

Sayak wrote:Do you know if India has MIRV? As far as I know that technology has yet to be developed. India has RV, not MIRV - from what I know

Agni missile to get multiple warheads

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1960774/posts


Indian has been working on MIRV for some time now and Agni V will incorporate this technology

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Re: Indian Missile Technology Discussion

Postby Sayak » 14 Oct 2009 08:11

Thanks Rahul. MIRV is reportedly started with AGNI 3, the ultimate goal will be to have AGNI SLBM MIRV

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Re: Indian Missile Technology Discussion

Postby rakall » 14 Oct 2009 11:37

Sayak wrote:Thanks Rahul. MIRV is reportedly started with AGNI 3, the ultimate goal will be to have AGNI SLBM MIRV



MIRV did not start with Agni3.. MIRV will start with A5. Agni3 will prove all the other subsystems such as the 2m dia solid booster, flex nozzle, advanced inertial nav system based on indigenous RLG's etc.. but it is likely to remain a single warhead missile.. the MIRV will start from A5



rakall wrote:
1. Based on the fact that A-5 will be the first true Indian ICBM that will be canisterised -- it is likely that it will be the first SLBM with ICBM range...We dont know how close/different A5 will be to A3 - whether it will be plainly adding a 3rd stage to A3 (most likely) or significantly different from A3 suit requirements of canisterisation..

So..I guess, the first line of Arihant with 12tubes will use an interim-SLBM capability with Shaurya/Sagarika missiles with 700+km range.. and the ulitmate evolution of Arihant will use the canisterised A5 as the SLBM..
..


This was a post I made yesterday.. after that when I was looking into some notes on my HDD, i found a notepad file where I had stored a summary of K_Mehta's post from Saraswat's talk in IISc.. I think some notes/revisions are required to the above speculation..

Posting it below :--

Strategic missiles:
Agni-3+: Range >5000 Km, Reaction time < 30secs, Cannisterized, Road mobile. To be test-launched next year.
Agni-5: Range 5000 Km (with MIRVs)

Under water missiles:
B-05: 700 Km
K-04: 3500 Km.
Future SLBM: 6000+Km with telescopic aerospike. Can be launched from ship/sub.

Things to note:

1. It will be Agni5 that will be MIRV. From AShukla's report - Agni5 will also be canisterised.

2. He mentions that Agni3 will eventually evolve into a 5000+ range missile - probably by making all stages composite casings & tailoring the payload weight (to less than 1500kgs as stated during the 3500km range test)

The "key feature" to note is that Saraswat mentions it will be Canisterized.. The Agni3 that was tested was road mobile, but not canisterized.. Unless K_Mehta did not mix-up the features (at that time he mentioned that he had taken notes in a lot of hurry) - this is new information regarding Agni3

3. For SLBM's the B-05 obvioulsy refers to Shaurya that has already been tested.

4. K-04 of 3500km range SLBM can either be a Shaurya derivative or Agni3 derivative... Since it has to be canisterized for Submarine launch & probably it will not have a vented interstage, but have a pyro-separated integral interstage - it is likely to be a hybrid of Shaurya technologies & Agni3 technologies.. which puts it atleast 5-7years away..

and more likely to be a single warhead SLBM solution; and from that angle I think it will not be a Agni5 derivative..

5. The 6000Km SLBM with aerospike will likley be Agni5 derivative, and will be the first SLBM to feature MIRV.. but that may be much farther into the future than K-04 -- atleast 7-8years away..

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Re: Indian Missile Technology Discussion

Postby sanjaychoudhry » 14 Oct 2009 12:36

India Likely to Test-Fire BrahMos Supersonic Missile in Dec

To add more teeth to the country's underwater weapons delivery capabilities, India is planning to test-fire the 290-km range BrahMos supersonic cruise missile from an undersea platform off the coast of Orissa soon.

The test-firing is planned to be carried out in mid-December and will prove the Indo-Russian joint venture BrahMos cruise missile's capability to be fired from submarines, Defence Ministry sources told PTI.

Underwater weapon-delivery platforms are considered to be the most potent second strike capability and the addition of nuclear capable BrahMos in its submerged arsenal is expected to provide more strength to India's 'no first strike' nuclear policy.

India has developed significant underwater weapon delivery platforms in the recent past including an indigenously-built nuclear submarine INS Arihant and successfully test-fired the nuclear capable 700 km range K-15 Shaurya missile early this year. The Navy is also expecting to receive a Russian-made Akula-II class 'Nerpa' nuclear submarine on lease by early next year.

The test-firing of the BrahMos is likely be done from a pontoon at Integrated Test Range in Balasore on Orissa coast from a DRDO facility. The same pontoon was used for carrying out the test-firing of the 700-km range K-15 'Shaurya' Submarine Launched Ballistic Missile early this year, the sources said.

A ring will have to be fitted in the existing pontoon for fitting-in the BrahMos, which has a relatively smaller diameter than the K-15 SLBM, the sources said.

The under-water cruise missile will have the same capabilities as its earlier variants and would be able to strike at both land and sea-based targets, they added.

The Indian Navy also wants that its second line of Project 75A submarines should have the capability of firing the BrahMos. The Navy had released the Request for Information (RFI) in September last year for acquiring six submarines as a follow-on order of the Scorpene submarines.

BrahMos has been developed jointly by India and Russia and has been inducted in the Army and Navy already. The IAF is also working on integrating the missile on its Su-30MKI air superiority aircraft.

The two countries have also signed an agreement for developing the hypersonic version of the missile, which currently flies at a speed of 2.8 mach.


http://news.outlookindia.com/item.aspx?667570

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Re: Indian Missile Technology Discussion

Postby SanjibGhosh » 14 Oct 2009 17:15

Xposting from "China Military Watch" thread ...

IAF Slams Chinese Protest to PM's Arunachal Visit
http://news.outlookindia.com/item.aspx?667753


"We have two squadrons of Akash at present. We are asking for more squadrons for the North-East to upgrade our air defence capabilities. It is a good missile and we have also asked for some improvements in it," Barbora said.


First two squadrons have delivered !!! :eek:

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Re: Indian Missile Technology Discussion

Postby Anabhaya » 14 Oct 2009 17:22

I'm surprised SFC continues to get more Prithvis. Was it not found to be too destabilizing requiring the development of Agni-I-SR?

Any direct referances/quotes to indicate these two missiles were tested by the SFC and not 'by a special contingent raised by the army' as the PTI reports indicate? Could the referance to SFC be the handiwork of DDM?

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Re: Indian Missile Technology Discussion

Postby rakall » 14 Oct 2009 18:32

Anabhaya wrote:I'm surprised SFC continues to get more Prithvis. Was it not found to be too destabilizing requiring the development of Agni-I-SR?




SFC does not continue to get Prithvi's.... they got a lot of them a few years ago and maintain a stock of a lot of Prithvi's.. that is bcoz Agni's were not productionised in large numbers..


Anabhaya wrote:
Any direct referances/quotes to indicate these two missiles were tested by the SFC and not 'by a special contingent raised by the army' as the PTI reports indicate? Could the referance to SFC be the handiwork of DDM?


Please refer to PIB official release a couple of pages ago.. the tests were conducted by SFC..

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Re: Indian Missile Technology Discussion

Postby SaiK » 14 Oct 2009 18:36

it could be ddmities.. a1sr is more likely option for sfc, and the prithvis are for the regular strike force as force multiplier, the prithvi conventional system was what they planned for wide area destruction of advancing enemies., not sure about its capability and smart weapon types that may be used to destroy a batallion, including perhaps an armoured regiment.

the plan should include attack helos, with multiple launch nag systems [i'd prefer al-khalid killer would be a dedicated nag helo, that carries atleast 64 nags, and it has the elta 2052 type that does a 64 target tracking].. in addition to prithvis.

prithvis may be for more dna destructions [thinking neutrons].

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Re: Indian Missile Technology Discussion

Postby Anabhaya » 14 Oct 2009 20:08

Please refer to PIB official release a couple of pages ago.. the tests were conducted by SFC..


Ah yes. I looked up the PTI releases and missed the PIB one. Makes sense then.

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Re: Indian Missile Technology Discussion

Postby Singha » 14 Oct 2009 20:18

per a article in TOI today,

- India is purchasing 1000 more rockets for the Smerch system
- India has a inventory of around 140 brahmos and is going to spend 8500cr on more of them.
I cant recall the exact number mentioned. some artillery regiment nos were mentioned.

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Re: Indian Missile Technology Discussion

Postby Singha » 14 Oct 2009 20:20

http://www.timesnow.tv/BrahMos-to-be-de ... 329414.cms
BrahMos to be deployed in Ladakh
11 Oct 2009, 1813 hrs IST

In a bid to deter China and bolster India’s defence along the Line of Actual Control (LAC), India has plans to have BrahMos supersonic cruise missiles in Ladakh, Jammu and Kashmir. These missiles have a range of 300 km and in case of a Chinese offensive, would be able to hit tactical and strategic targets in Tibet. They would be able to fly over the mountains and hit targets and are very fast and almost impossible to counter. BrahMos is a two-stage missile. It is nine metres tall and weighs 3.9 tonnes with the canister. It can be launched from ships, silos and road and rail mobile launchers.

It has a strike range of 290 km and can carry a conventional warhead weighing 300 kg. This is apart from the plans to have tanks in Ladakh, also more choppers, infantry and more troops. The area has been found to be level, being a plateau, and tanks can be used there. The idea is to build a counter offensive capacity. Also, troops outside Kashmir will be earmarked for Ladakh, if necessary. The BrahMos project is a joint venture between Defence Research and Development Organisation and Russia’s NPO Mashinostroeyenia who have together formed the BrahMos Aerospace Private Limited.

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Re: Indian Missile Technology Discussion

Postby Gagan » 14 Oct 2009 22:50

rakall,
The ultimate missile for the Arihant will be the K-xx or the Agni-3SL (If we follow the terminology of "the one who can't be named"). Due to size restrictions this will be a two staged bird restricted at ~ 10-11m height and 2m dia onlee.

Both Agni-3s and 5s will be cannistrized, road / rail mobile, and sub launched.

As far as Star sensors improving the CEP is concerned, it helps, but the real accuracy comes from Sat Navigation. For example

Trident C4 (10.2m x 1.8m, 33Tons, 7400Kms, CEP 400m - Inertial & Star Sensors) and
Trident D5 (13.4m x 2.11m, 55.5Tons, 11,300Kms, CEP ~90m - Inertial, Star Sensors & GPS; completely composite 3 stage)

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Re: Indian Missile Technology Discussion

Postby Rahul M » 14 Oct 2009 23:05

Singha wrote:per a article in TOI today,

- India is purchasing 1000 more rockets for the Smerch system
- India has a inventory of around 140 brahmos and is going to spend 8500cr on more of them.
I cant recall the exact number mentioned. some artillery regiment nos were mentioned.

singha ji, please get the arty regiment numbers if you can.
TIA>

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Re: Indian Missile Technology Discussion

Postby Rahul M » 14 Oct 2009 23:07

SanjibGhosh wrote:Xposting from "China Military Watch" thread ...

IAF Slams Chinese Protest to PM's Arunachal Visit
http://news.outlookindia.com/item.aspx?667753


"We have two squadrons of Akash at present. We are asking for more squadrons for the North-East to upgrade our air defence capabilities. It is a good missile and we have also asked for some improvements in it," Barbora said.


First two squadrons have delivered !!! :eek:

well spotted sanjib, some good news at last.

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Re: Indian Missile Technology Discussion

Postby Gerard » 15 Oct 2009 03:08

People's Daily Online

India's new missile is able to attack China's Harbin
India's Advanced Systems Laboratory (ASL) has made its forthcoming Agni-5 missile highly road-mobile, or easily transportable by road, which would bring Harbin, China's northernmost city within striking range if the Agni-5 is moved to northeast India.

The Agni-5 is similar to the Dongfeng-31A presented in China's National Day Military Parade in Beijing . India is going to test-fire the missile in early 2011.

The ASL, which develops India's long-range, nuclear-tipped missiles, enables the Agni-5 to reach targets far beyond its stated 5,000-km range by quickly moving closer to the target. Therefore, from various places across India, the Agni-5 can reach every continent except North and South America.

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Re: Indian Missile Technology Discussion

Postby D Roy » 15 Oct 2009 04:47

Hehe,

So they follow articles on the "Flame" system do they? :lol:

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Re: Indian Missile Technology Discussion

Postby Singha » 15 Oct 2009 06:36

corrected details from yesterdays TOI:

- army will induct brahmos2 once tests are completed. it is for attacking pinpoint
targets in cluttered urban env
- IA is already inducting 2 brahmos regiments with 134 missiles, 10 TELARs on
12x12 tatra and 4 mobile command posts @ 8352 crores in phase1.
- fast track procurement of 1000 more smerch rockets @ 460cr for the 3 regiments
of Smerch.
- no mention of regiment nos.

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Re: Indian Missile Technology Discussion

Postby tejas » 15 Oct 2009 07:34

134 missiles and some support equipment for 8352 crores seems quite expensive for a missile we supposedly make ourselves. Are our Russian friends shafting us in the propulsion( ramjet) tech. which I presume is screwdrivered into the final product at an exorbitant cost to us.

What is your take GD garu?

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Re: Indian Missile Technology Discussion

Postby AmitR » 15 Oct 2009 08:05

tejas wrote:134 missiles and some support equipment for 8352 crores seems quite expensive for a missile we supposedly make ourselves. Are our Russian friends shafting us in the propulsion( ramjet) tech. which I presume is screwdrivered into the final product at an exorbitant cost to us.

What is your take GD garu?


There was a report in this forum that the Russis have jacked up the price of Brahmos sub systems that they are making. I believe it was double or 50% . This may be the reason for the expensive system.

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Re: Indian Missile Technology Discussion

Postby Singha » 15 Oct 2009 08:57

being the first lot, the cost could including other stuff like production facilities and one time fees. they have taken over a plant in kerala for production.

the cost of the next lot should be more revealing - the land attack version with the new rcs reduced ramjet intake.

we need atleast 3000 rounds of this land attack weapon. each regiment must have increased number of reload vehicles to maximize their staying power out in the field where its tough to
resupply into places like ladakh and AP.

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Re: Indian Missile Technology Discussion

Postby AmitR » 15 Oct 2009 09:01

Singha wrote:we need atleast 3000 rounds of this land attack weapon


How did you come to that number?

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Re: Indian Missile Technology Discussion

Postby Singha » 15 Oct 2009 09:44

LA-brahmos would only be able to take out static targets - supply dumps, bridges, camps, radar sites, airbases, tank parks and so on. some of these like S300 radar nodes and airbases will be defended with multiple types of SAMs and radar guided AA guns.

assuming a war against PRC, we need to deal with atleast around 50 such targets every day over a period of 14 days to keep them on the backfoot. some would be repeat strikes on repaired targets.

50x14 = 700. assume each such target needs 4 brahmos both to account for CEP, failures enroute, intercepted by SAM and stuff like supply dumps are large and spread out which need >1 missile.

700x4 = 2800

these need to be in the inventory and with the regiments, some more need to kept in reserve should the war stretch longer and to deal with Pakis...say 300 more.

the production facility must be designed as a multiple pipeline so that at any moment, there are many brahmos only a few days away from completion. this will permit surge production using 24x7 schedule to start replenishing depleted stocks when any hostile situation emerges. it needs real thought and not as easy as it sounds. it shouldnt be "we deliver block of 16 brahmos every 2 months" should be "we deliver 2 brahmos every week". we need to stockpile all parts
necessary for surge production and keep extra trained stuff at lower load factor on the payroll.

IN will have its own stock which is not accounted for here..perhaps 100-200 on ship and dock.

imo we need to equip and raise 6 more brahmos regiments to add to the 2.
- 3 Ladakh (dual tasked with northern pak)
- 3 Arunachal-Nagaland-Assam
- 1 Sikkim
- 1 GHQ reserve held in central india (move as needed)

When Nirbhay comes online we can enlarge these regiments and add Nirbhay TELARs to the mix
using tomahawk glcm style box launchers on Tatra. the C3I truck should get sw & hw upg to
handle nirbhay also.

they will need their own organic air cover using Spyder batteries. these are prime targets for PLAAF.

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Re: Indian Missile Technology Discussion

Postby Singha » 15 Oct 2009 09:51

needless to say we need to order and step up Pinaka production on a urgent basis and also obtain more Smerch batteries.

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Re: Indian Missile Technology Discussion

Postby rakall » 15 Oct 2009 10:56

Singha wrote:being the first lot, the cost could including other stuff like production facilities and one time fees. they have taken over a plant in kerala for production.

the cost of the next lot should be more revealing - the land attack version with the new rcs reduced ramjet intake.

.



I still think the reporter probably mixedup a digit somewhere.. whatever has to be included - the number is just too high..
some goofup somewhere..

We need to order a lot of Brahmos & lot of Akash..

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Re: Indian Missile Technology Discussion

Postby AdityaM » 15 Oct 2009 13:13

If thats all we have of Brahmos in the current inventory, then all the talk of possible export etc is all loud talk.
If we don't have enough for ourselves, how can we think of exporting?

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Re: Indian Missile Technology Discussion

Postby Singha » 15 Oct 2009 13:26

correct. 130 might indicate the inventory of a regiment, not those held in central depot -- hopefully.

it will be years before we reach comfortable stock levels.

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Re: Indian Missile Technology Discussion

Postby Mahendra » 15 Oct 2009 15:39

scans courtesy vayu

Image

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Re: Indian Missile Technology Discussion

Postby rakall » 15 Oct 2009 15:48

vaman wrote:scans courtesy vayu

Image




Thanks a lot Vaman & Nayakuddin...

I would have loved to do the scan&upload job, but these days uploading is blocked at work.. :(

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Re: Indian Missile Technology Discussion

Postby tejas » 15 Oct 2009 22:01

The gimpy range of Brahmos has always bothered me. Hopefully the true range is much higher. Since Brahmos is essentially an upgraded Yakhont I can see how the MTCR would apply. Why should it apply to a joint venture project such as the hypersonic BrahmosII ? Presumably a brand new animal.

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Re: Indian Missile Technology Discussion

Postby SanjibGhosh » 16 Oct 2009 14:30

India's developing mutliple-warhead missile
http://indiatoday.intoday.in/index.php? ... tionid=114

Few new info is there apart from Ajai Shukla's report ...

Also see this one ... :mrgreen:

Agni V scares Dragons
http://www.samaylive.com/news/agni-v-sc ... 62923.html

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Re: Indian Missile Technology Discussion

Postby RKumar » 16 Oct 2009 20:00

SanjibGhosh wrote:Agni V scares Dragons
http://www.samaylive.com/news/agni-v-sc ... 62923.html


It is a childish report .... r we scared of their active and deployed ICBM, SLBM and so on? No, so why they should be afaird of a missile, which even have not tested once. This is kind of reporting is path to self destruction. DRDO, HAL, ADE and now news wala also overestimating our capabilites. We should keep our focus on real goals. We are doing good since 5-8 yrs and we should continue doing so.

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Re: Indian Missile Technology Discussion

Postby AmitR » 16 Oct 2009 20:15

edit.
Last edited by Rahul M on 17 Oct 2009 01:12, edited 2 times in total.
Reason: can we give these "Indians are this, Indians are that" statements a rest ? especially in the mil forum ?

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Re: Indian Missile Technology Discussion

Postby putnanja » 17 Oct 2009 00:40

DRDO to launch series of missiles

CHENNAI: In the next three to four months, the Defence Research and Development Organisation (DRDO) will be launching a series of missiles “both in the ballistic missile defence area and the strategic side,” according to V.K. Saraswat, Scientific Adviser to the Defence Minister. These will include Prithvi and Agni missiles, and an interceptor missile which (the interceptor) forms part of India’s quest to build a ballistic missile defence (BMD) shield. An advanced version of Prithvi-II was already successfully test-fired on October 12.
...
...
The DRDO is developing a new Prithvi interceptor missile codenamed PDV. It will be a two-stage missile and both the stages will be powered by solid propellants. It will have an innovative system for controlling the vehicle at an altitude of more than 150 km. “We expect to have trials of this early next year,” the Scientific Adviser to the Defence Minister said.

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Re: Indian Missile Technology Discussion

Postby Katare » 17 Oct 2009 01:38

AAD ceiling is being increased fromn 15km to 30 KM

PAD is being upgraded into PVD with ceiling of 150KM

New software for commond and control that even tracks satellites

If tested successfully it'll be a great achievement for BMD program!

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Re: Indian Missile Technology Discussion

Postby Kanson » 17 Oct 2009 01:40

The DRDO is developing a new Prithvi interceptor missile codenamed PDV. It will be a two-stage missile and both the stages will be powered by solid propellants. It will have an innovative system for controlling the vehicle at an altitude of more than 150 km. “We expect to have trials of this early next year,” the Scientific Adviser to the Defence Minister said.

India's THAAD ?

Although the actual figures are classified, THAAD missiles have an estimated range of 125 miles (200 km), and can reach an altitude of 93 miles (150 km).

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Re: Indian Missile Technology Discussion

Postby Gagan » 17 Oct 2009 02:13

GD Saar,
I agree with the 3000 number that you calculate. But not the way you arrive at the figure.

In any initial war with china, from the word go, there will be atleast 500 close to a 1000 targets, including fuel dumps, bridges, enemy mil hardware concentrations, communications / C3I nodes, SAM sites, SSM / Cruise missile sites which will have to be taken out. Only a mass produced, cost effective missile can do this.
This is beyond the capabilities of any airforce in the world to take out and that too in the space of a week even.
Imagine even 500 targets will need a total of 500 sorties to take out, taking precious time, risking expensive pilot lives and the aircraft. A huge salvo of missiles can do that within the space of a few hours. It all needs a few passes of a SAR equipped satellite to complete everything and with sena bhavan being treated to live view from the heavens. A salvo will also be necessary, because the missiles themselves will be targets of a corresponding enemy salvo, so that the use it or lose it scenario applies.

After the initial salvo will come the painstaking task of taking out the parts that the enemy repairs or rebuilds. But chances are, the enemy's will to fight will be severely degraded after the first salvo itself.

Now the same applies to the enemy in an India-china context. We need to look at how we can ensure our own forces survive such a salvo.
Last edited by Gagan on 17 Oct 2009 09:08, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Indian Missile Technology Discussion

Postby Gagan » 17 Oct 2009 02:25

Agni V scares Dragons
Childish or not, India needs more such articles in the press, belittling the chinese and pricking their inflated sense of echendee. They are only a few years ahead of us, and the gap is narrowing already in all aspects - economy, tech development, defense. In fact India has taken a lead in many spheres.

This has not gone down well with the chinese, who were gifted the security council seat that belonged to India, tried their level best to prevent the rise of India. They are sweating now, because despite all their efforts at building up pakistan and other dirty games where they have invested so much time and money are not able to stop India's rise.

I am toh, loving it. Ting tong.

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Re: Indian Missile Technology Discussion

Postby Krishna_V » 17 Oct 2009 02:44

disha wrote:,

India does *not* have MIRV-ed missiles. Not yet. From Ajai's interview with Mr. Avinash Chander (ASL), it appears that MIRV capability will be demonstrated circa 2015/2016. That is if all ducks are lined in row and everything quacks on cue, then Agni V will be demonstrated in 2011 and 4/5 years after that MIRV. Note that "major progress" has been made. But what kind of progress is under wraps. From what is publicly demonstrated (and available), It is possible to "simulate" MIRV but we are not yet at a stage to demonstrate MIRV. This would mean that breakthrough has been made in hosts of technologies (eg. Star Sensor based guidance, single bus for multiple payloads, inertial guidance system, injection algorithms etc), though its integration is going to be a challenge.


Agni 3 was last tested in May 2008 and design for Agni 5 was complete by end of 2008. ISRO has already demonstrated kind of MIRV technology by placing satellites into various orbits. I know that Missile-MIRVs will have to be precision guided to their destinations but would it take 7 to 8 years to demonstrate the capability?

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Re: Indian Missile Technology Discussion

Postby disha » 17 Oct 2009 07:53

Krishna_V wrote:
disha wrote:,

India does *not* have MIRV-ed missiles. Not yet.


Agni 3 was last tested in May 2008 and design for Agni 5 was complete by end of 2008. ISRO has already demonstrated kind of MIRV technology by placing satellites into various orbits. I know that Missile-MIRVs will have to be precision guided to their destinations but would it take 7 to 8 years to demonstrate the capability?


Yes. It will take 7 to 8 years to demonstrate the capability. Design does not mean that it has been fabricated and tested. Please go back to the URLs and re-read the articles, I am paraphrasing Avinash Chander, Director, ASL only!

Note that the star sensor was demonstrated only recently. It has to be ruggedized and tested in various configurations. That needs to be perfected to achieve meter level accuracies.

shiv
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Re: Indian Missile Technology Discussion

Postby shiv » 17 Oct 2009 08:18

Gagan wrote: They are sweating now, because despite all their efforts at building up pakistan and other dirty games .



Just goes to show just how far Sun Tzu's descendants can go if they try to make mithais out of a lump of crap.


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