Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Kartik
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Re: Indian Missile Technology Discussion

Postby Kartik » 06 Jan 2010 22:54

bodhi wrote:The article says that the 2 acs to be sent back will have to be strengthened to carry the missile underbelly.

So all the MKIs or MKIs assigned to squadrons to deliver Brahmos have to undego this process? This would mean an extra cost. Was this a part of the deal earlier?


no, not every Su-30MKI will be strengthened to carry the AL-Brahmos. AFAIK, a few of the Su-30MKIs per squadron will be going through the process of strengthening. don't ask for a source, because I read it somewhere as mentioned by a reliable source, and it wasn't a news article. and no, it wasn't a part of the original deal since the Brahmos ALCM only came about after the signing of the MKI contract.

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Re: Indian Missile Technology Discussion

Postby Singha » 06 Jan 2010 23:05

afaik -- 2 MKIs are already sent to Rus for mods.

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Re: Indian Missile Technology Discussion

Postby Kartik » 06 Jan 2010 23:35

Gagan wrote:The Air launched Brahmos weighs ~ 2 tons approx.
Can the MKI's landing gear stand the aircraft landing back with a brahmos strapped underneath?

I think the strengthening refers to the landing gear too.


Gagan, the MTOW of the Su-30MKI is not being changed here. the regular MKI's landing gear itself is good for a fully-loaded Su-30MKI landing at close to 3.0-3.5 m/sec sink rate over several thousand cycles. so when a Su-30MKI lands with a Brahmos ALCM and correspondingly fewer weapons on other pylons to compensate for weight, it won't be an issue for the landing gear . what is needed is localised strengthening of the hard point, and making sure that the load path for the load (the Brahmos ALCM) on the center fuselage hard point is good and doesn't encounter any structure that causes a discontinuity or stress concentration.

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Re: Indian Missile Technology Discussion

Postby Rahul M » 06 Jan 2010 23:41

Kartik wrote:
bodhi wrote:The article says that the 2 acs to be sent back will have to be strengthened to carry the missile underbelly.

So all the MKIs or MKIs assigned to squadrons to deliver Brahmos have to undego this process? This would mean an extra cost. Was this a part of the deal earlier?


no, not every Su-30MKI will be strengthened to carry the AL-Brahmos. AFAIK, a few of the Su-30MKIs per squadron will be going through the process of strengthening. don't ask for a source, because I read it somewhere as mentioned by a reliable source, and it wasn't a news article. and no, it wasn't a part of the original deal since the Brahmos ALCM only came about after the signing of the MKI contract.

all may not be sent to russia too, after the first few. HAL may do it on its own later. since IAPO will have the detailed stress parameters of the airframe it is natural that they will take the lead.

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Re: Indian Missile Technology Discussion

Postby Kersi D » 06 Jan 2010 23:43

Gagan wrote:The Air launched Brahmos weighs ~ 2 tons approx.
Can the MKI's landing gear stand the aircraft landing back with a brahmos strapped underneath?

I think the strengthening refers to the landing gear too.


Would it be possible for a SU 30 to land with a 2 MT Brahmos ?

K

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Re: Indian Missile Technology Discussion

Postby George J » 07 Jan 2010 07:26

‘‘We may have to reduce the booster level but right now we want to install one BrahMos missile at the belly of Su-MKI, Pillai pointed out.


The MKI can carry about 8T of payload but the INDIVIDUAL hardpoints have different load capacity (centerline hardpoints can carry the heaviest and the wingtips carry the lightest). In this case, one SINGLE center hardpoint will have to structurally strengthened from the airframe itself (which is why it was sent to OEM-IAPO) to handle the weight of the payload. Once the hard point is CERTIFIED for a given payload weight (say 2T) then you can put whatever you want. If you want to put an elephant that's fine...but ONLY if 1) Elephant weighs <2000 kg, 2) MKI is taking off from an airfield that is at a max of X meters above sea level. 3) Elephant does not interfere with the aerodynamics of the aircraft.

The Brahmos is a very serious piece of hardware even if one MKI can carry one that's fine. As long as it can reach out and touch someone with just one Brahmos its all good. I am sure they will send in more than one MKI with a Brahmos, technically they can send in 9 but who's counting.

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Re: Indian Missile Technology Discussion

Postby Singha » 07 Jan 2010 08:49

the MKI should certainly be able to land with brahmos on centerline. the undercarriage has high ground clearance
and the belly is high up. never heard of tail scrapes on flankers unlike A340-600.

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Re: Indian Missile Technology Discussion

Postby AdityaM » 07 Jan 2010 12:12

Can a SU30 to increase its speed fire a warheadless Brahmos without releasing it from the Pylon?
:rotfl:

I know this is silly, but if the pylons could be strengthened, why cant such a device be used for aircraft speed boosts?

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Re: Indian Missile Technology Discussion

Postby kit » 07 Jan 2010 12:38

thats akin to asking whether a jet fighter can be turned into a rocket/ram jet fighter ..hmm ? why not .. faster would out run any plane or missile , need not be manned,can be hypersonic, can reach anywhere in the globe within hours, deliver flowers where ever it needs to deliver, can go exo atmospheric , deliver a small sat ,spot on surveillance, the ultimate stand off weapon with the ultimate survivable capability.Add some stealth and well the ultimate secret weapon ! ahh time to stop day dreaming :mrgreen:

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Re: Indian Missile Technology Discussion

Postby KrishG » 07 Jan 2010 13:15

AdityaM wrote:Can a SU30 to increase its speed fire a warheadless Brahmos without releasing it from the Pylon?
:rotfl:

I know this is silly, but if the pylons could be strengthened, why cant such a device be used for aircraft speed boosts?


Not possible as the increase in speed will be very small due to the 30 ton weight of the a/c. Conservation of Momentum.

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Re: Indian Missile Technology Discussion

Postby Gaur » 07 Jan 2010 13:20

AdityaM wrote:Can a SU30 to increase its speed fire a warheadless Brahmos without releasing it from the Pylon?
:rotfl:

I know this is silly, but if the pylons could be strengthened, why cant such a device be used for aircraft speed boosts?

Let us consider for a moment that bramhos (or some other rocket) could greatly increase MKI's speed. But what about the pylon it is attached to? It would have to be of unimaginable strength to support such rocket system. And even if that could be overcome, what about the aircraft's inlet? They are designed to stabalize airflow till a certain speed (the engine should not get air flowing at supersonic speeds). How will they handle such speedy airflow?
Not to mention the stress on the whole aircraft. Not only the plyons, but the whole aircraft would need to be strengthened. So, for this concept to work, basically a whole new aircraft would have to be designed specifically for this this thing to work.

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Re: Indian Missile Technology Discussion

Postby Daedalus » 07 Jan 2010 13:40

AdityaM wrote:Can a SU30 to increase its speed fire a warheadless Brahmos without releasing it from the Pylon?
:rotfl:

I know this is silly, but if the pylons could be strengthened, why cant such a device be used for aircraft speed boosts?


I think that is why they are designing AVATAR.

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Re: Indian Missile Technology Discussion

Postby rohiths » 07 Jan 2010 13:42

Brahmos ramjet will not work efficiently at low mach numbers.
You won't even get the thrust you get in normal brahmos operation

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Re: Indian Missile Technology Discussion

Postby AdityaM » 07 Jan 2010 13:50

Gaur wrote:Let us consider for a moment <snip><snip><snip> this thing to work.

Thanks! explained well. good thing i am not involved in aircraft designing

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Re: Indian Missile Technology Discussion

Postby Kanson » 08 Jan 2010 20:26

Vinito wrote:


Wont the US of A and other countries raise concerns around this statement as everyone including the GOI has been against the supposed "weaponisation of space" when the Chinese tested their ASAT and now we are also making statements like this?


You see the irony here. Before the 2007 ASAT test, Chinese joined hands with Russians in persuading Americans for some form of Space treaty limiting weaponisation. You know, Americans love their fingers and more so their middle fingers. So they gave a reply with their affectionate finger. After the ASAT test by Chinese, sometimes later, Americans send some "feelers" to see if Chinese are willing for any treaty. Its now the Chinese turn to reply in American style:rotfl:. So why would Indians bother if anyone say anything on this. The problem what you say is the pollution of space by the debris resulting from any test of ASAT weapon. That is where everyone objected. We are only building the blocks. There is not much difference in hitting a missile and a satellite with ABM, if you understand what i'm saying. And we wont be trigger happy in testing explicitly against a satellite as Chinese demonstrated. So all the talk about developing block of the kill vehicle.

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Re: Indian Missile Technology Discussion

Postby shiv » 08 Jan 2010 21:12

AdityaM wrote:Can a SU30 to increase its speed fire a warheadless Brahmos without releasing it from the Pylon?
:rotfl:

I know this is silly, but if the pylons could be strengthened, why cant such a device be used for aircraft speed boosts?



With respect, what would the Su 30 do with that extra speed while lugging around all that extra weight and drag making it less maneuverable?

Are you referring to a rocket based speed boost or a ramjet based speed boost? Are you looking for repeated speed boosts or just one that is over when the Brahmos has exhausted itself?

Why not just mount an extra engine on a pylon?. Or many small engines on many wing pylons and still carry a Brahmos? Or even better, delete the engines, delete the pilot, delete the Su 30 and fire the Brahmos alone. Let the Brahmos give itself a speed boost?

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Re: Indian Missile Technology Discussion

Postby Gagan » 08 Jan 2010 21:16

^
For completion one might add that killing a non maneuverable satellite is much much easier than taking out a maneuvering incoming missile, in view of the short warning times, difficulty of detection because of the clutter and the small size of the missile warhead.
Indian science seems to have done just fine on the ABM front where we are ahead of the chinese efforts (their current level is the S-300 copy HQ-9), all reason to believe that because of all the major blocks available to India - the Swordfish, IRBM / AMB tech etc an ASAT weapon system is well within reach.

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Re: Indian Missile Technology Discussion

Postby vera_k » 08 Jan 2010 22:00

CNC machines.

Machines for Pinaka: Dollar dip helps US firm bag bid, court says

A Fall in US dollar proved costly for an Indian company as it failed to procure the tender to supply machines required by the Ministry of Defence (MoD) for production of Pinaka rocket launcher by the Ordnance Factory at Ambajhari.

And the winner was Hess Engineering Inc of the US. Pune-based HYT Engineering Company Limited lost the deal as the US dollar has fallen vis-a-vis Indian rupee on the date of award of the contract, making the US firm the lowest bidder.

On October 10, 2005, a tender was floated by the MoD for supply of one three-roller, four-axis CNC Flow Forming Machine for production of rockets.

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Re: Indian Missile Technology Discussion

Postby RKumar » 08 Jan 2010 22:08



Another stupid/Corrupt/bad decision by the GoI. With decisions like this, how you can expect to build defense industry?

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Re: Indian Missile Technology Discussion

Postby Katare » 08 Jan 2010 22:12

They issued this tender in 2005, we are in 2010 and the case is being decided by court. Now the US company would come back and say because of 5 year delay we want 50% increase in the cost. MoD would forward this request to MoF which would raise objections. Shri Antony aka Mr Clean would cancel the tender to protect his image and ask for retendring........tamasha goes on.

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Re: Indian Missile Technology Discussion

Postby RKumar » 08 Jan 2010 22:25

We are missing visionary person in the leading role. Who is not penny wise and pound stupid.

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Re: Indian Missile Technology Discussion

Postby Dilbu » 08 Jan 2010 22:26

Newbie question: What is the status of AAD project?

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Re: Indian Missile Technology Discussion

Postby Rahul M » 08 Jan 2010 23:08

AdityaM wrote:Can a SU30 to increase its speed fire a warheadless Brahmos without releasing it from the Pylon?
:rotfl:

I know this is silly, but if the pylons could be strengthened, why cant such a device be used for aircraft speed boosts?

inspired by swatkats ?? :rotfl:

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Re: Indian Missile Technology Discussion

Postby Gagan » 09 Jan 2010 02:00


In October 2006, when the price bids were opened, HYT was found to be the lowest bidder with the quoted price of Rs 18,49,13,681 while the US company quoted its price at $3169320, which comes to Rs 20,09,70,715. In July 2007, the tender purchase committee called upon the Indian company for price negotiation. Following negotiations, the committee decided to recommend the petitioner for awarding the contract.
This is like 3yrs old stuff. I hope the contract didn't get delayed.

I wonder if there is any harm in getting stuff directly from the original supplier even if it is massa.

BTW this is the CNC machine from HYT engineering company Ltd - the one which lost the contract.
Image Image
The company's website says the following:
In general all metallic materials that have a fine and homogeneous structure can be flowformed:

• 1.4301 / AISI 304 1.4571 / AISI 321
• AISI 321 / 25CrMo4
• SAE 4130 / 1.7734
• 15CDV6 / 1.4548
• 17-4 PH / 1.5434
• PH 13-8 Mo / 1.6354
• Maraging Steels
• Aluminium Alloys

Gagan
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Re: Indian Missile Technology Discussion

Postby Gagan » 09 Jan 2010 02:13

Wasn't there a discussion in the Nuclear thread about CNC machines? The posters were saying that there is some amount of Jugaad in the nuclear industry in India because of the absence of really hi teck CNC machines?

Three-roller, four-axis CNC Flow Forming Machine, sounds high tech to me. But this thing is manufactured in india. Is this what the posters were saying is needed for the N-weapons program?

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Re: Indian Missile Technology Discussion

Postby ramana » 09 Jan 2010 02:48

Flow forming is used for the mfg of the tubes or casing for those rockets. Its a machine alright but its used for forming/hot pressing the metal into tubes of high strength. Its not the same as metal cutting machine.

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Re: Indian Missile Technology Discussion

Postby AdityaM » 09 Jan 2010 03:21

Rahul M wrote:inspired by swatkats ?? :rotfl:

No, just a random thought that came.
@Shiv: more like single boosts, and then discard the dead weight. It could be for any plane, not necessarily su30

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Re: Indian Missile Technology Discussion

Postby Gagan » 09 Jan 2010 07:54

How many Brahmos would India have by now? Both the ones with the earlier seeker and the new seeker?
How many Prithvis?

I was just looking at wikipedia and here are the approximate costs listed there:
Prithvi: $4,60,000
Brahmos: $ 2.73 million

ie, the Brahmos is nearly 6 times as expensive as the Prithvi :eek:

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Re: Indian Missile Technology Discussion

Postby Rahul M » 09 Jan 2010 07:56

AdityaM wrote:
Rahul M wrote:inspired by swatkats ?? :rotfl:

No, just a random thought that came.
@Shiv: more like single boosts, and then discard the dead weight. It could be for any plane, not necessarily su30

lugging around that humungous weight itself would make it not worth it. you are much better off carrying extra fuel and have an 'overdrive' mode in your normal engines, as some russi jet engines do.

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Re: Indian Missile Technology Discussion

Postby Avinash R » 11 Jan 2010 10:59

India test-fires air-to-air Astra missile
IANS, 11 January 2010, 10:47am IST

BALASORE (ORISSA): India on Monday successfully test fired the Astra air-to-air missile from its Integrated Test Range (ITR) off the Orissa coast.

The beyond visual range air-to-air missile was tested at the Chandipur test range at about 9.45am.

"The test was a success," S.P. Dash, director of the ITR, told IANS.

Another Astra missile is scheduled to be tested from the same test range later in the day, he added.

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/indi ... 432312.cms

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Re: Indian Missile Technology Discussion

Postby sum » 11 Jan 2010 11:28

Wasn't the Astra supposed to have been tested on a Su-30 by now?

IIRC, this is still a ground firing test.

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Re: Indian Missile Technology Discussion

Postby Singha » 11 Jan 2010 11:33

iirc it has been tested from su30 for carriage , stability of the plane type tests not firing test.

they need the radar seeker proven and ground test of plane-to-missile triggering and initial course update
before shooting it off I think. after a few shoots, they can do the midcourse update tests.

all in all, a long process and atleast 50-100 more tests can be expected before IOC.

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Re: Indian Missile Technology Discussion

Postby sunny y » 11 Jan 2010 13:15

Wasn't the Astra supposed to have been tested on a Su-30 by now?

The carriage trials of Astra called Captive Flight Trials have already been carried out to determine whether the Astra can withstand the physical stresses of supersonic flying or not.
This test must have been done to prove data link between missile & the aircraft, INS etc.

Actual firing of Astra from MKI will be held only in late 2010.

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Re: Indian Missile Technology Discussion

Postby Ravishankar » 11 Jan 2010 16:39

2 Astra missiles successfully test fired

http://www.expressindia.com/latest-news ... ed/566078/

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Re: Indian Missile Technology Discussion

Postby Craig Alpert » 11 Jan 2010 21:13

Two Astra missiles successfully test fired
Achieving a new milestone, India today successfully test-fired two indigenously developed air-to-air missiles 'Astra' in quick succession from the Integrated Test Range at Chandipur in Orissa.

The beyond visual range (BVR) missiles were test-fired from a ground launcher in the launch pad No. 2 of the ITR complex at about 9.45 am and 12.06 pm, defence sources said.

Describing both the trials as "successful", they said the data of the flight test was being thoroughly analysed.

Defence Research and Development Organisation (DRDO) scientists said Astra was a futuristic missile and it could intercept targets at supersonic speeds between mach 1.2 to 1.4 (mach one is equivalent to 1236 kmph.)

"The tests on the missile's navigation, control, air frame, propulsion and other sub-system have been validated," they said.

The complex missile system would undergo some more trials before being made fully operational, they said.

The single stage, solid fuel 'Astra' missile "is more advanced in its category than the contemporary BVR missiles and it is capable of engaging and destroying highly manoeuvrable supersonic aerial targets," defence sources said.

Though the exact range of today's trial was not disclosed, scientists are working to ensure that 'Astra' performs effectively at different altitudes - one, cruising at an altitude of 15 km with 90 to 110 km range, another at an altitude up to 30,000 ft having a range of 44 km and the third, at sea level with a range of 30 km.

Astra had earlier been test-fired from the ITR at the ground level several times, the sources added.

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Re: Indian Missile Technology Discussion

Postby Kartik » 11 Jan 2010 23:26

sunny y wrote:The carriage trials of Astra called Captive Flight Trials have already been carried out to determine whether the Astra can withstand the physical stresses of supersonic flying or not.
This test must have been done to prove data link between missile & the aircraft, INS etc.


The test was conducted from a ground launch pad. AFAIK, the captive trials haven’t even commenced as yet. It will be done sometime this year, but as yet, I don’t recall reading anything about it having been done. There will be separation trials, and only after those are successful will there be a live firing test. Only when that is done will there be any tests to check the data link between the missile and aircraft

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Re: Indian Missile Technology Discussion

Postby yossarian » 12 Jan 2010 01:47

AFAIK, the captive trials haven’t even commenced as yet


Captive trials were complete in November 2009, Source Wikipedia and link below:

http://beta.thehindu.com/sci-tech/technology/article41575.ece

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Re: Indian Missile Technology Discussion

Postby Rahul M » 12 Jan 2010 01:54

yossarian wrote:
AFAIK, the captive trials haven’t even commenced as yet


Captive trials were complete in November 2009, Source Wikipedia and link below:

http://beta.thehindu.com/sci-tech/technology/article41575.ece

thanks a lot, I think we had missed it.

A Su-30MKI combat aircraft especially tasked for the trials took off from Air Force Station Lohegaon (Pune) for a 90-minute sortie with the Astra missile. Till Thursday, four sorties, including flying the missile to super sonic speeds and to 7Gs, had been accomplished. Captive trials are mandatory to actual firing of the missile from the aircraft.


Captive flight trials involve the Su-30MKI carrying under its wings at one of its six hard points (stations designated for the carrying of stores) an inert missile (with no explosives but simulating the real missile) which has not been electrically or electronically ‘connected’ to the aircraft’s on-board systems.

Captive or aero mechanical integrity tests allows a verification of aspects such as the mechanical, structural and electrical compatibility between the missile and the aircraft, and whether vibrations, strain, stress, etc. are within design levels.


Disclosing news of Phase 1 of the captive flight trails which have come after about four years of planning and certification, senior officials said the trials would cover the entire flight envelope of the Su-30MKI, including attaining the fighter’s altitude ceiling of 18 km and a speed of 1.8 Mach, and undertaking the various complicated manoeuvres that the aircraft is designed for. The trials are likely to involve around 15 sorties.


Though the missile has been indigenously developed, Astra currently depends on a Russian launcher{he means the pylons I guess} and seeker head. The seeker is yet to be integrated with the missile’s radar, algorithms, etc.

Officials said Astra has been designed to pull a latax (lateral acceleration) of 40g. (40 times the acceleration due to gravity).

The second phase of the trials -- avionics integrity tests -- are expected early next year {i.e 2010} and will involve the integration of the missile’s avionics with that of the aircraft, and a dialoguing between the cockpit and the missile. Officials also disclosed that “some guided flights with a seeker to check for guidance will take place early next year.” The actual firing of Astra from the Su-30MKI is expected in July-August 2010.

Astra is to be initially fitted on the Su-30MKI and the Mirage 2000, with the Tejas Light Combat Aircraft and the MiG-29 scheduled to be equipped with it later.

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Re: Indian Missile Technology Discussion

Postby sunny y » 12 Jan 2010 01:54

The test was conducted from a ground launch pad. AFAIK, the captive trials haven’t even commenced as yet. It will be done sometime this year, but as yet, I don’t recall reading anything about it having been done. There will be separation trials, and only after those are successful will there be a live firing test. Only when that is done will there be any tests to check the data link between the missile and aircraft


Here is the source (19 oct 2009):
http://ajaishukla.blogspot.com/2009/10/ ... e-its.html

The forthcoming test with a Sukhoi-30MKI is called a “captive flight trial”; it will evaluate whether the Astra can withstand the physical stresses of supersonic flying and high-speed manoeuvring. Early in 2010, a “captive-II flight trial” will check whether the Astra’s avionics are properly matched with those of the Sukhoi-30MKI. The fighter should receive the missile’s signals; and the Astra should receive the aircraft’s commands.


Only in October 2010, after all the Astra’s systems are certified airworthy, will a live Astra be fired from a fighter.


The datalink has already been tested in Sept 08 as mentioned by Mr. Ajai Shukla in the comments section.

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Re: Indian Missile Technology Discussion

Postby Kartik » 12 Jan 2010 02:41

yossarian wrote:
AFAIK, the captive trials haven’t even commenced as yet


Captive trials were complete in November 2009, Source Wikipedia and link below:

http://beta.thehindu.com/sci-tech/technology/article41575.ece

Thanks for that ! missed reading that article !


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