Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

AdityaM · Post by **AdityaM** » 02 Feb 2010 16:38

From the TOI link:

"The missile can target an enemy aircraft up to 30 km away, at altitudes up to 18,000 meters
The missile is capable of carrying conventional as well as nuclear warheads with a payload of 60 kg.

What will a SAM of 30 KM range do with a Nuke warhead? do we have 60 kg compact nukes?

Willy · Post by **Willy** » 02 Feb 2010 17:01

Why dosent India partner with Israel for a long range sub launched nuclear cruise missile? They have them on their Dolphin's dont they?

bart · Post by **bart** » 02 Feb 2010 17:04

AdityaM wrote:From the TOI link:
"The missile can target an enemy aircraft up to 30 km away, at altitudes up to 18,000 meters
The missile is capable of carrying conventional as well as nuclear warheads with a payload of 60 kg.
What will a SAM of 30 KM range do with a Nuke warhead? do we have 60 kg compact nukes?

DDM, ignore.

Willy wrote:Why dosent India partner with Israel for a long range sub launched nuclear cruise missile? They have them on their Dolphin's dont they?

MTCR, besides the Israelis get most of the core parts like the engine from American sources.

Nihat · Post by **Nihat** » 02 Feb 2010 17:30

Excellent news , absolutly brilliant. Now we'll soon have 6 squandrons or 750 Akash protecting our skies , they'll effectivly replace all SA-6 in due time. They'll be more effective than the aeging and possibly outdated SA-6 , there would be no maintanence and supply issues as even the radar is built in India and with such big numbers protecting our borders , the threat from Cruise missiles or a enemy air blitz is significantly reduced.

jaladipc · Post by **jaladipc** » 02 Feb 2010 17:40

Aditya_V wrote:<span><a linkindex="86" href="http://timesofi ... 527577.cms" class="smarterwiki-linkify">http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/indi ... 527577.cms[/url]</a></span>

IAF orders another 750 Akash surface-to-air missiles
this is good news, goes towards building a Miltary Industrial COmplex, 250+750 the IAF will now have 1000 Akash Missiles. Wish the Army orders some too. we can then move towards the next gen SAMS

IAF should leave the SAM system in Automatic mode with Launchers in standby 24/7 which are positioned near the border areas.This way,it will make use of the targets flying from across the border as a practice and capability proving measure

will put the chinese at hanger if one of their heli will be shot down next time if crossed the border as like before.

And its a total of 6 squads with 750 missiles not 8 squads.Probably IAF might order more for ladhak region.

Nihat · Post by **Nihat** » 02 Feb 2010 17:58

One question though , if we have so much faith in Akash and even the Army has certefied to it . Why do we need Spyder QRSAM.

Aditya_V · Post by **Aditya_V** » 02 Feb 2010 18:04

If I am right Akash and Spyder are not in the same league, Spyder is for the last minute 0-5Km Aircraft and Cruise Missile interception role. Thats why it is called a QR missile system. If I am right SPyder has 2 missiles, 1 a modified Derby and Python 5SOmething which Trishul was suppossed to do. Akash is more a medium range missile and with is RAMJET can't react as quickly as a QR SAM but can intercept targets at Higher Altitudes and Long range.

One question to Gurus here, does it make sense for Land based targets to have a Navy type CIWS gun. This destroy DUmb Bombs, LGB's, AGM -65 type munition on its way to the target.

manjgu · Post by **manjgu** » 02 Feb 2010 18:18

This is very good news and way to go... field indian systems and continously improve. There should be a bonus for specific lab whose deliverable is accepted.

Nihat · Post by **Nihat** » 02 Feb 2010 18:21

but Akash is stated to have Max. range of 25 Km , nowhere does it imply that it cannot succesfully intercept cruise missiles or aircrafts at a closer range say 5Km or even lesser , besides the mechanism for interception should be the same for similar targets , irrespective of the distance.

Aditya_V · Post by **Aditya_V** » 02 Feb 2010 18:26

Nihat-> Yes Akash Can Intercept targets at close range but it is not as fast as a Dedicated QR SAM, like the Navy Barak short range QR SAM and longer Range SAM's on the same ship. Or like PAD and AAD for ABM. More simplistically although not accurate, if you have enemy infantry running at you from 100metres, would you use the Machine gun or the main gun in a Tank?

manjgu · Post by **manjgu** » 02 Feb 2010 18:39

can some gurus describe the air def env .. and role of different radars etc ..??

Venu · Post by **Venu** » 02 Feb 2010 18:49

Aditya_V wrote:One question to Gurus here, does it make sense for Land based targets to have a Navy type CIWS gun. This destroy DUmb Bombs, LGB's, AGM -65 type munition on its way to the target.

Aditya, you stole my thought! Place some CIWS around all the major installations and give them task of taking down the CM's, if any, that manage to sneak in.

I remember watching a James Bond movie in which a chota ciws kinda thing, installed on his car, shooting the grenades launched by the villian...taarattataay..tataaayyyy.

Jokes apart. Even though idea looks funny, that should be a feasible one. May be atleast as a final resort. What say gurus?

Gagan · Post by **Gagan** » 02 Feb 2010 19:36

The israeli Iron Helmet anti artillery system is designed to do exactly that.

It opens up the possiblity of a very quick reacting short ranged system that can shoot down everything from Artillery shells to provide a CIWS role.

India should deploy several of these along our important installations, military formations, storage sites that are identified as vulnerable.

DRDO - Akash great news! Congratulations!
How long does it take to have these numbers deployed? I assume that a third to a quarter of these will be actively deployed, the rest will be reloads (~ 2 - 3 reloads approx)

jaladipc · Post by **jaladipc** » 02 Feb 2010 19:42

Venu wrote:
Aditya_V wrote:One question to Gurus here, does it make sense for Land based targets to have a Navy type CIWS gun. This destroy DUmb Bombs, LGB's, AGM -65 type munition on its way to the target.
Aditya, you stole my thought! Place some CIWS around all the major installations and give them task of taking down the CM's, if any, that manage to sneak in.

I remember watching a James Bond movie in which a chota ciws kinda thing, installed on his car, shooting the grenades launched by the villian...taarattataay..tataaayyyy.

Jokes apart. Even though idea looks funny, that should be a feasible one. May be atleast as a final resort. What say gurus?

US has land based Phalanx CIWS for this role.
a last minute defence is always welcomed for critical installations.
DRDO can make use of the MMW radar employed for Trishul and integrate it to the naval Medhak gun system or else develop one gattling gun for such purpose.
Since the hardware developed for Trishul still exists and is good in activating the missile in fraction of a second,such system can be best suited.

Can make them mobile on a T-72/BMP chasis/Tatra.

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 02 Feb 2010 20:00

when will ddm move from cut&paste tech?

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 02 Feb 2010 20:38

Venu wrote:
Aditya_V wrote:One question to Gurus here, does it make sense for Land based targets to have a Navy type CIWS gun. This destroy DUmb Bombs, LGB's, AGM -65 type munition on its way to the target.
Aditya, you stole my thought! Place some CIWS around all the major installations and give them task of taking down the CM's, if any, that manage to sneak in.

I remember watching a James Bond movie in which a chota ciws kinda thing, installed on his car, shooting the grenades launched by the villian...taarattataay..tataaayyyy.

Jokes apart. Even though idea looks funny, that should be a feasible one. May be atleast as a final resort. What say gurus?

Why not have balloons on cables for cruise missiles - like the barrage balloons of WW2 in addition to other defences?

http://www.theregister.co.uk/2009/02/13/jlens_cdr/

Bheem · Post by **Bheem** » 02 Feb 2010 20:49

http://www.newsonair.com/news.asp?cat=n ... &id=NN2727

He (Defence Minister) proudly announced that Akash surface to air medium range missiles developed within the country has been whole heartedly welcomed by our Air Force and additional order has been placed for 750 of them apart from 250 acquired earlier. He also disclosed that Airforce has placed an order for 20 additional LCAs apart from an order of 20 placed earlier. He also welcomed Navy for replacing imported sonars and radars with the one manufactured by BEL.

Aditya_V · Post by **Aditya_V** » 02 Feb 2010 20:57

Shiv-> I guess compared to V-1's , mordern cruise missiles should be able to manuver and avoid the Baloon traps and are more ground hugging and are not aiming for a general target of London and launched from the same area..

If you can have a 360 degree coverage of a critical target why not......

I am not only talking about cruise missiles, but shotting down of LGB's and Dumb Bombs by CIWS.

On anther note, good to hear the order of 750 freshAkash, which means 1000 missiles Akash plus SPyder, this is way better than OSA + Pechora combo. With MRSAM coming in 2015, atleast 7-8 years time we should have significant improvement in Anti air defences given the improvement in the CHinese and Paki weaponry

jaladipc · Post by **jaladipc** » 02 Feb 2010 21:04

My bad.
these DDM reporters always play around with numbers.

This means an additional 6 squads apart from the intial 2 which gross to 8 suads.thats an impressive start for a desi weapon system.Might be the actual moment for DRDO folks to party with vodka.
I hope this number go upwards further and IA does take same number of deliveries to bring the cost of the system further down,which thereby increase the chances of exports.Previously a couple of countries in the east envinced interest in the system and the talks went upto a trials of the system.May be this added impetus will increase the chance of exports.

Cheers DRDO.
JAI HIND

It may not be prescribed for Indian considering its 2 only enemies are much ahead the stage of fielding such poor missiles.
the heading itself says a poor mans defence against another poor mans missiles.
I dont think,India is that poor to field a full pledged radar network to counter much advanced threats.

But CIWS are highly reliable against precisions weapons(like LGB`s,guided artillery, cruise missiles,.......) A squad of mobile CIWS is much affordable even compared to QRSAM`s protecting a offensive formation.

RKumar · Post by **RKumar** » 02 Feb 2010 21:15

2 squadrons are operational (2009) as per the wiki.

2 more squadrons were ordered on March 30, 2009 (Tata and BEL) last year (which should be handed over within 33 months from the date of order)

(There was no mention of ordered missiles during last orders, to me it is not clear if 250 missiles were for 2 or (2+2)4 squadrons )

6 more squadrons orderd + 750 missiles are order

So confirmed total 10 squadrons + 1000 missiles, good job DRDO

Avarachan · Post by **Avarachan** » 02 Feb 2010 21:21

This is fantastic news! JAI HIND! DRDO ZINDABAD!

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 02 Feb 2010 21:29

Aditya_V wrote:.

I am not only talking about cruise missiles, but shotting down of LGB's and Dumb Bombs by CIWS.

Hence the link - which speaks of balloons for exactly that purpose. Not the mention of India in the end.
http://www.theregister.co.uk/2009/02/13/jlens_cdr/

sunny y · Post by **sunny y** » 02 Feb 2010 21:30

can some gurus describe the air def env .. and role of different radars etc ..??

Hi....Akash system employs 2 radars 3D-CAR for long range survillance & multi-function phased-array radar called Rajendra which is the main FCR for Akash.

Now suppose there are more than one aircraft attacking a city simultaneously from one direction. A conventional surface-to-air missile system has a radar tracking a target. One radar handles one target. When the second target comes, it will have to leave the first. So you need more radars. This is where Rajendra come in. It is a multi-function radar. It will guide the missile, track multiple targets, and will do surveillance all at the same time.

Consider the deployment scenerio for Delhi. Rajendra looks for threats all around Delhi, finds out targets are coming. Once the target is within the kill zone i.e 25 KM, the control centre will assign the target. The assignment has to be accepted by the battery, and priority is given. Then the launcher is readied and checked. The moment the target gets assigned, the missile gets powered. Rajendra will know when the target will reach the optimum kill zone. When it happens, the missile is fired. When the missile flies, the radar tracks it.
Each Akash battery has a single Rajendra radar which is linked to up to 4 Akash launchers, each with 3 missiles. Each Rajendra radar can guide up to 2 of these missiles against a single target, which means it can guide eight missiles simultaneously towards 4 targets.
A single Akash missile has an 88% Probability of kill. Two missiles can be fired, five seconds apart, to raise the Probability of Kill to 98.5%.

I hope it helps....

vijyeta · Post by **vijyeta** » 02 Feb 2010 21:32

Aditya_V wrote:http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/indi ... 527577.cms

IAF orders another 750 Akash surface-to-air missiles

Great news. Good to see that DRDO stuck to it's guns and improved the system after the difficult intial period of development.

Is there any material/thread on BR which will provide more info on why the Army rejected the missile and the IAF later accepted it?

sunny y · Post by **sunny y** » 02 Feb 2010 21:36

Aditya_V wrote:http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/indi ... 527577.cms

DRDO Zindabad. Time for IA to get its act right & support this missile.

sunny y · Post by **sunny y** » 02 Feb 2010 21:49

vijyeta wrote: Is there any material/thread on BR which will provide more info on why the Army rejected the missile and the IAF later accepted it?

AFAIK The major reason behind IA's reluctance to induct Akash was that they wanted the entire system i.e radars, missile launchers and command centres into T-72 tanks. They wanted Akash to be cross-country mobile so that it could advance deep into enemy territory shooting down enemy jets. That was the main reason why it took DRDO more time to come up with IA specific Akash system.

Thanks

sum · Post by **sum** » 02 Feb 2010 22:04

Am hoping Planeman ( or any knowledgeable guru) comes up with a updated article on India's air defences, (with latest info about Aakash, MRSAM , SPYDER and its usage in the Indian context etc ) similar to the "Fortress China" series

Venu · Post by **Venu** » 02 Feb 2010 22:20

Gagan wrote:The israeli
Iron Helmet
anti artillery system is designed to do exactly that.

I hope you meant Iron dome.

Iron dome involves hitting incoming shells and mortars with a short range missile. It is a very complex system. Israel being a very small country, such a system is justifiable. However, I think we don't need such a complex system. We can follow a more practical approach by involving many CIWS systems. Firing a volley of high energy bullets to shoot and neutralize the incoming shells. That is a more economical way to deal as well.

Nihat · Post by **Nihat** » 02 Feb 2010 22:25

How vulnerable is Akash to anti-radiation missiles , since it essentially relies on 2 radars and has a range of 25Km needing command guidence all the way. Can one anti-radiation hit knock down multiple launchers.

P.S. - Aditya , thanks for the earlier explanation.

Venu · Post by **Venu** » 02 Feb 2010 22:33

sunny y wrote:
can some gurus describe the air def env .. and role of different radars etc ..??
Rajendra looks for threats all around Delhi, finds out targets are coming. Once the target is within the kill zone i.e 25 KM, the control centre will assign the target. The assignment has to be accepted by the battery, and priority is given. Then the launcher is readied and checked. The moment the target gets assigned, the missile gets powered. Rajendra will know when the target will reach the optimum kill zone. When it happens, the missile is fired. When the missile flies, the radar tracks it.
I hope it helps....

Any idea how long the system takes for all these stages?

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 02 Feb 2010 22:46

well if we are facing agm-88 harm, then it has a range of 105 kms. Rajendra could detect it @60km range, fire (actual source target), and scoot in a few seconds shutting off all its radiation zones. IA wants it on T-72 meaning, it should do about at least 50 ft. in <10 seconds @ 70kmph. safe enough to evade and re-engage/attack the target (perhaps with a relay to another battery).

Kartik · Post by **Kartik** » 03 Feb 2010 00:28

alok_c wrote:While we are speculating on the shape of the fins, it is possible that we are simply seeing the fins being deployed and in "half-open" position. For reference please check out this video at around 7sec when the GBU-28's fins are being deployed. The relative distance of the GBU-28 from F-111 is comparable to Sudarshan from Jag.

that might well be true Alok. Seeing the video and the opening up of the fins, it does seem like triangular shaped fins at one point of time. Maybe I made an error in thinking that those were fixed fins instead of fins in the process of opening up as Sid said. Anyway, till more pictures or a video of it in use is available, we can only speculate.

Kartik · Post by **Kartik** » 03 Feb 2010 00:54

Nihat wrote:One question though , if we have so much faith in Akash and even the Army has certefied to it . Why do we need Spyder QRSAM.

I think that the Akash SAM requires more vehicles to support it, including radar and command and control, reload vehicle (both are there on Spyder too, but each missile is a lot lighter), but I think that its biggest disadvantage in being mobile is that its heavier and AFAIK fewer are carried per vehicle.

which means its a good SAM for area defence but not quite so great for mobile ops. the Spyder QRSAM is designed to be very mobile, with only 1 Command Control Unit vehicle per battery of 4 Missile Firing Units with 4 missiles each. so it can be embedded alongwith mobile strike and defensive groups as they move and protect it from fighters or gunships that may attack tanks and other mobile targets.

SPYDER is a low-level, quick-reaction, surface-to-air missile (LLQRM) system capable of engaging aircraft, helicopters, unmanned air vehicles, drones and precision-guided munitions. The system provides air defence for fixed assets and for point and area defence for mobile forces in combat areas.

The SPYDER-SR (short range) system has 360° engagement capability and the missiles can be launched from the full-readiness state in less than five seconds post target confirmation. The kill range is specified as being less than 1km to more than 15km. The altitudes range from a minimum of 20m to a maximum of 9,000m. The system is capable of multi-target simultaneous engagement and also single, multiple and ripple firing, by day and night and in all weathers.

Rafael is developing a medium-range version, SPYDER-MR, which has a range over 35km at altitudes from 20m to 16km. SPYDER-MR carries eight missiles while SPYDER-SR has four.

SPYDER-MR also has new IAI/Elta MF-STAR surveillance radar.

The main components of the SPYDER system are the truck-mounted command and control unit, the missile firing unit with Python 5 and Derby missiles, a field service vehicle and missile supply vehicle.

The system can launch missiles in two modes of operation: lock on before launch (LOBL) and lock on after launch (LOAL).

A typical SPYDER squadron consists of one mobile command and control unit (CCU) and four mobile firing units (MFU). The mobile CCU is equipped with a surveillance radar and two operator stations with a radio datalink between the CCU and the four MFUs.

The CCU combines data from the local surveillance radar and from upper tier command and control centres up to 100km away. There is also provision for receiving air situation pictures (ASP) from other datalinks.

The VHF/UHF interference-free communication system is for internal squadron communication and to upper tier command.

If the target is within acquisition range the missile is launched in LOBL mode, and in the LOAL mode if the target is beyond seeker acquisition range.

Both the Derby and the Python 5 missiles can operate in LOBL and LOAL modes and deploy warheads that blast on impact or by proximity fuse.

The Elta EL/M 2106 ATAR 3D surveillance radar can simultaneously track up to 60 targets. The radar has 360° operation and all-weather day and night capability. The radar includes advanced electronic counter countermeasures (ECCM) for operation in dense hostile electronic warfare environments.

The Python and the Derby

The Python 5 missile is Rafael's new very high agility dogfight air-to-air missile and is supposed to be the most capable AAM in Israel's inventory. It has BVR (beyond visual range), LOAL (lock-on after launch), and all-aspect, all-direction (including backward) attack capability.

The missile has an advanced electro-optical imaging infrared seeker (IIR or ImIR) that scans the target area for hostile aircraft, then locks-on for terminal chase. The missile is supposed to be as manuevorable as air-to-air missiles with thrust vectoring technology.

The missile's guidance and control systems are active for a three times longer period than with earlier versions of the Python, enabling the missile to counter targets making evasive manoeuvres.

The high explosive fragmentation warhead is fitted with an active laser proximity fuse.

The Python 5 has a range of 20km.

Also known as the Alto, the Derby missile is a BVR, medium-range active-radar seeker missile. Though not part of the Python family, the missile is basically an enlarged Python-4 with an active-radar seeker. It has a range of 50 km.

Both missiles have a speed of Mach 4.

Kartik · Post by **Kartik** » 03 Feb 2010 01:07

Gagan wrote:The israeli Iron Helmet anti artillery system is designed to do exactly that.

I suppose you meant Iron Dome ?

Rahul M · Post by **Rahul M** » 03 Feb 2010 01:24

kartik, the T-72 based akash and the rest of the systems on BMP chasis has already been demoed. will the truck based spyder really have better cross-country capability than the tracked vehicles based akash ?

also, given its range, which is about double that of spyder, akash systems need not keep up at the same speed as entire armoured force. it would constitute the centrepiece of the mobile AD net with 2-3 batteries at the division level while the spyder and SP AA systems like the tungushka M1/shilka take care of things at tank squadron level.

Rahul M · Post by **Rahul M** » 03 Feb 2010 01:26

One question to Gurus here, does it make sense for Land based targets to have a Navy type CIWS gun. This destroy DUmb Bombs, LGB's, AGM -65 type munition on its way to the target.

a combination of AA guns backed by good sensors and systems like the tungushka, if deployed in that role, serve this purpose.

Craig Alpert · Post by **Craig Alpert** » 03 Feb 2010 01:51

according to live fist

A splendid day for indigenous weapons. The Indian MoD's Defence Acquisition Council (DAC) has cleared the purchase of six more squadrons of Akash for the IAF (that's 750 missiles). It's been reported that four of the six squadrons will be deployed in Arunachal Pradesh. With this, the IAF has eight Akash squadrons, and may procure more. The Indian Army is also understood to be considering a couple of squadrons worth.

Srivastav · Post by **Srivastav** » 03 Feb 2010 02:04

I always wondered what will be the actual range of surface launched "Astra".... maybe it can be utilized as a SAM (just thinking out loud here)

jaladipc · Post by **jaladipc** » 03 Feb 2010 02:25

Srivastav wrote:I always wondered what will be the actual range of surface launched "Astra".... maybe it can be utilized as a SAM (just thinking out loud here)

Supposed to be between 35-40Km IMHO

jaladipc · Post by **jaladipc** » 03 Feb 2010 02:27

finally a solid confirmation of Brahmos price tag-------roughly around Rs100 million might vary in $ terms.
http://www.bharat-rakshak.com/NEWS/news ... wsid=12304