Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Gerard
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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby Gerard » 06 Feb 2010 22:22

India's defence establishment are poised to test a nuclear capable, China-specific, Agni-III missile any time between 6-8 February

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby ramdas » 06 Feb 2010 22:28

Gerard,

yes, that was one report...saying any time btw 6-8 feb. OTOH, the Hindu report clearly said before Sunday. Putting them together, it should have happened by now. I hope it happens in the next few days, but I am pessimistic.

Our govt seriously neglects building up our ballistic missile capabilities. Long range ballistic missiles should be a top priority. How is it that Iran tested a new solid fuelled IRBM (the Sejil-2) four times in a year ? We on the other hand test Agni III less than once a year. This is a shame.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby swapna » 06 Feb 2010 22:32

Nice Video on SPIDER Airdefence system.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=al4yfFmGNYk

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby Shameek » 06 Feb 2010 23:23

swapna wrote:Nice Video on SPIDER Airdefence system.


Just a note. Its SPYDER. (Surface to air PYthon and DERby) :)

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby John » 07 Feb 2010 11:00

Anujan wrote:I am not so sure that "Ramjet is a major limitation". Raytheon proposed the "Future Medium-Range Air-to-Air Missile", an improvement of AIM-120 AMRAAM with guess what? Ramjet. http://www.hughesmissiles.com/develop_p ... fmraam.htm

MBDA Meteor has Ramjet propulsion! http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MBDA_Meteor The planned improvement to R-77, the R-77M1 will have Ramjet propulsion. In fact most long range AA missiles seem to be moving in that direction.

Then what is the basis to claim that Ramjet has a major limitation?

Not talking about Ramjets in general but the Solid propellant Ramjet used by Akash which was limited to 600 m/s and had burn time of around 20 seconds. The Ramjet technology has progressed quite a lot compare that with Brahmos.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby Austin » 07 Feb 2010 11:10

Agni 3 Successfully launched says NDTV

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby Austin » 07 Feb 2010 11:13

John wrote:Not talking about Ramjets in general but the Solid propellant Ramjet used by Akash which was limited to 600 m/s and had burn time of around 20 seconds. The Ramjet technology has progressed quite a lot compare that with Brahmos.


What is the kind of Isp that Brahmos Ramjet generates compared to Akash ?
I think Akash uses solid fuel Ramjet which will generate a lower Isp compared to Brahmos liquid fuel Ramjet.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby David Saenz » 07 Feb 2010 11:17

India tests long-range nuclear-capable Agni-III missile
Bhadrak (Orissa), Feb 7 : India Sunday tested its indigenous long-range nuclear- capable Agni-III missile, catapulting the country into a select group of nations that have intermediate-range ballistic missile (IRBM)-capability, defence sources said.

The 3,000-km range missile, which is capable of carrying warheads weighing up to 1.5 tonnes, was tested from the Inner Wheeler Island at Dhamra, a launch site in Bhadrak district, about 200 km from Orissa capital Bhubaneswar, at 10.46 a.m.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby krishnan » 07 Feb 2010 11:17

India ready for talks and Agni 3 tested
Last edited by krishnan on 07 Feb 2010 12:07, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby pkudva » 07 Feb 2010 11:26

DD News also confirmed.Data yet to be received and analysed.

I hope most of the technologies required for A-5 will be tested and hope every thing goes well so that we can see A-5 fly may be at the end of this year.

Wishes to all.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby sunny y » 07 Feb 2010 12:53

X Posting from Agni-3 tested successfully thread
Watch this thread for his views.


http://www.india-forum.com/forums/index ... ge__st__40

Apologies if this has already been discussed but this came as a news to me so I thought I should post it here. In the above thread, a user named Bharat_2009 mentions the following

Russians have been employed to fix the Turbofan engine problems. Launcher is also getting ready in Pune. We are looking at 4 Nirbhay missiles on each launcher !!
:D

Another user Chandragupta mentions this
As per the reports I had,Nirbhay MKI will have a minimum range of 1200 km and also feather an Air launched version that is suitable for almost all fighters in the IAF inventory. May be the real punch will come from Nirbhay MKII with a strike range of 2500km to be readied by 2015 while MKI is to deployed by 2012.
:D

Is this the real timeline for the induction of Nirbhay Mk1 & Mk2 ??


Thanks

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby shiv » 07 Feb 2010 13:05

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/indi ... 544599.cms
"All mission parameters were met," they said, adding the test was a success.

This was the fourth flight test in the Agni-III series


1) What does the Army say
2) What does Hemant Rout say?

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby ramdas » 07 Feb 2010 15:54

Shiv,

This test has been a success. One can usually read between the lines to verify it. Whenever failures have occurred, the only thing mainstream news bulletins say is that the missile has been tested. At the very least, scientist like of Dr. Saraswat, Dr. Avinash Chander etc do not openly announce success when there has been a failure. They stay silent in that case. At least with missiles, that has been the situation.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby Singha » 07 Feb 2010 16:09

the tomahawk land version (retired after INF) was also carried in protected cansister on a
truck. it was about the size of nirbhay model.

from wiki.

Designed to be road-mobile, the BGM-109 was carried in a four-pack on a wheeled transporter erector launcher (TEL) towed by a MAN AG 8 X 8 tractor, and could travel in convoy. A third component was a trailer mounted Launch Control Center (LCC). Normal basing was in shelters at military installations, with deployment to other sites, on- or off-road, to be carried out in an alert situation. GLCMs were deployed in the United Kingdom (at RAF Greenham Common and RAF Molesworth), Belgium, Netherlands, Germany, and Comiso Air Station in Italy. Initial operating capability (or IOC) occurred in 1983. The launchers (sans warheads) were sent out on a number of simulated scrambles. Four TELs and their missiles (including reloads) made up each flight of GLCMs.

pic
http://img.blog.yahoo.co.kr/ybi/1/24/56 ... 663877.jpg
http://www.designation-systems.net/dusrm/bgm-109g.jpg
http://www.olive-drab.com/images/id_man_8x8_375.jpg

we can prolly just repurpose our regular brahmos TELs to launch these 18-20ft long
sweet puppies. with a 1000km range they need to just drive around in the plains of
north,west and east india and avoid entering the weak road infra in the hills.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby Kanson » 07 Feb 2010 16:45

After the K-15 missile clears the water medium, it climbs 20 km into the air and can destroy targets 700 km away. The missile forms part of the DRDO’s Sagarika project.

What is the altitude for Brahmos ?

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby arun » 07 Feb 2010 16:45

X Posted. Official Ministry of Defence press release on the Agni-III launch.

States that this test of the Agni-III was a “User” trial with the launch carried out by the Indian Army:

FOURTH TEST FLIGHT OF LONG RANGE MISSILE AGNI-3 SUCCESSFUL

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby Kanson » 07 Feb 2010 16:56

Rahul M wrote:
Kanson wrote:^^ I think what Srai saying on Akash is right. For doing the same manoeuvre, the object with lesser speed experiences lesser Gs than an object with higher speed.

not sure of that. same manoeuvre is the operative word. a coasting missile would need to do a much more violent maneuver because it has no reserve power to fall back upon if it misses the first time. a powered missile can keep up with a maneuvering target on account of its reserve power with much less violent maneuvers and hence lesser g-forces.

An explanation can be given this way: For a solid fueled, the actual game of the missile will be over in few secs. To have a high Pk it has to perform tight turn/violent manoeuvers ( few secs within that few secs) to catch the manoeuvering a/c. In case of Ramjet, since it is powered continously and with the speed of at the least Mach 2+, it can be very easily reach the designated target which at best will have the speed of Mach 1+. Modern Ramjet missile can trim the speed wherever necessary and missiles like Meteor can switch off and switch on whenever necessary.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby Bheem » 07 Feb 2010 19:32

Kanson wrote:An explanation can be given this way: For a solid fueled, the actual game of the missile will be over in few secs. To have a high Pk it has to perform tight turn/violent manoeuvers ( few secs within that few secs) to catch the manoeuvering a/c. In case of Ramjet, since it is powered continously and with the speed of at the least Mach 2+, it can be very easily reach the designated target which at best will have the speed of Mach 1+. Modern Ramjet missile can trim the speed wherever necessary and missiles like Meteor can switch off and switch on whenever necessary.


In slightly simpler terms, I would say that for an "aware" maneuvering target or for a fast + cross moving target the "effective" range of Ramjet is twice the solid fueld missile. Though the solid fueled missile can also increase its range by dual booster + sustainer burn and lofted profile. Hence I wopuld say that Akash 30km would be equal to Lrsam 60 km in lot of situations.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby KrishG » 08 Feb 2010 00:04

DRDO raises the bar, sets its sights on 5,000-km Agni-V

It was the Army which conducted the successful flight. With this, the induction process of the missile has commenced. “This launch is a stepping stone to the DRDO realising its next intermediate range ballistic missile, Agni-V,” V.K. Saraswat, Scientific Adviser to the Defence Minister, said.


“The development of the Agni-III took place independent of the MTCR. About 80 to 85 per cent of the components were indigenous. The indigenisation has gone to such a level where we are independent of any embargo,” Dr. Saraswat said.


Both the stages of Agni-III are powered by solid propellants. It is 17 metres long, has a diameter of two metres and a launch weight of 50 tonnes. It can carry payloads weighing 1.5 tonnes.


The missile was tested for its full range and its integrated strategic command network was fully proved

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby shiv » 08 Feb 2010 07:03

Kartik wrote:If the angular velocity is to be taken into account, then formula is slightly different- mass*radius of turn * square of angular velocity (since angular velocity is velocity divided by radius of the angle). So if two objects have same angular velocity, and are prescribing a circular path of the same radius, they still may have different centrifugal forces acting on them depending on their mass.


Ahh - that explains my mistake. Thanks for taking the trouble.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby Singha » 08 Feb 2010 08:56

the M51 being a 3-stage missile has greater range. A5 will fix that.

I thought they plan to skip one number and move A3 -> A5 in naming.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby shiv » 08 Feb 2010 09:04

Why does A III have a 1500 kg payload capacity?

The news about "triggering mechanism" working is a unique tidbit that I have never heard in earlier missile test news reports.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby disha » 08 Feb 2010 09:28

shiv wrote:Why does A III have a 1500 kg payload capacity?

The news about "triggering mechanism" working is a unique tidbit that I have never heard in earlier missile test news reports.


I had quoted this in A-III thread of its successful launch

disha wrote:... It *is* a nuclear "warhead" minus the plutonium pit. I do not think CWC bars us from testing that. This includes arming mechanism and the implosion explosive lenses. The pit is replaced with a sensor that indicates if the implosion lenses worked as expected or not.


The earlier Agni series, were always quoted as carrying nuclear warheads and it was ambiguous if a particular Agni fielded is nuclear or not. With the above information with Agni-III it confirms that Agni-III will always carry only nuke warhead. Me thinks it has to do with thread posture and which Agni is pointed to which country. Agni-III is China specific.

BTW all warheads will require "triggering mechanism" the result of trigger will be different. Another reason it was left out earlier and mentioned now is to address some segments that the strategic nuke defense option is not just retained but is going to be operationalized (part of the triad).

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby SivaVijay » 08 Feb 2010 10:30

Novice alert:

We now have a dependable long range capability, we also have a advanced maneovering missile in Shaurya, can't we wed this to make a kick @** AShM?

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby Craig Alpert » 09 Feb 2010 01:54

What makes 5000 km range Agni-5 missile deadlier
.....................

That enables the Agni-5 to reach targets far beyond its stated 5,000-km range by quickly moving closer to the target. In a hypothetical war against, say, Sweden, an Agni-5 launcher, stationed near Bangalore, would be unable to strike Stockholm, 7,000 km away. But moving by road to Amritsar [ Images ] would bring Stockholm within range. Similarly, moving the Agni-5 to northeast India would bring even Harbin, China's northernmost city, within striking range. From various places across India, the Agni-5 can reach every continent except North and South America.

The Agni-5 will be the first canisterised, road-mobile missile in India's arsenal, similar to the Dongfeng-31A that created ripples during China's National Day Military Parade in Beijing [ Images ] on October 1. India's current long-range missile, the Agni-3, a non-canisterised missile, can only be moved with difficulty from one place to another.

In many other respects, the Agni-5, which is scheduled to make its first flight in early-2011, carries forward the Agni-3 pedigree. With composites used extensively to reduce weight, and a third stage added on (the Agni-3 was a two-stage missile), the Agni-5 can fly 1,500 km further than the 3,500-km Agni-3.

"The Agni-5 is specially tailored for road-mobility," explains Avinash Chander, Director, ASL. "With the canister having been successfully developed, all India's future land-based strategic missiles will be canisterised as well".

Made of maraging steel, a canister must provide a hermitically sealed atmosphere that preserves the missile for years. During firing, the canister must absorb enormous stresses when a thrust of 300to 400 tonnes is generated to eject the 50-tonne missile.

Canister technology was first developed in India for the Brahmos cruise missile. But it was the K-15 underwater-launched missile, developed here in Hyderabad for India's nuclear-powered submarine, INS Arihant , which fully overcame the technological hurdles in canisterising ballistic missiles.

Another major technological breakthrough that will beef up the Agni-5 is ASL's success in developing and testing MIRVs (multiple independently targetable re-entry vehicles). An MIRV, atop an Agni-5 missile, comprises three to 10 separate nuclear warheads. Each warhead can be assigned to a separate target, separated by hundreds of kilometres; alternatively, two or more warheads can be assigned to one target.

"We have made major progress on the MIRVs in the last two years," is all that Avinash Chander is willing to say on the subject.

Nevertheless, extensive testing still lies ahead for this highly complex technology. MIRVs will be deployed on the Agni-5 only after another 4-5 years.

While MIRV technology is similar to launching multiple satellites through a space rocket, a missile requires far greater accuracy. A satellite would be considered in correct orbit even it is a kilometre higher or lower than planned.

But each warhead in an MIRV must impact within 40 metres of its target. With such high accuracies, even small nuclear warheads are sufficient for the job.

..............................

MIRVs also enable a single missile to overwhelm the enemy's missile defences. Tracking and shooting down multiple warheads are far more difficult than intercepting a single warhead.

Providing each warhead with the capability to maneuver, and dodge enemy interceptor missiles, increases survivability further. The MIRV warheads are also being given electronic packages for jamming enemy radars.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby ramana » 09 Feb 2010 02:00

That 40m CEP keeps cropping up. Might be RV/payload realted.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby Craig Alpert » 09 Feb 2010 02:20

BrahMos to be test-fired in Russia in September 210
For the first time, 290 km-range BrahMos supersonic cruise missile will be test-fired in Russia in September during its installation on Indian Navy's warships.Installation test-flight of the missile will be held in the Baltic Sea from Navy's Talwar Class stealth frigates being constructed in Kaliningrad in Russia, Defence Ministry officials said today.Till now, the various versions of the missile have been test-fired 21 times and have been inducted in the Navy and the Army.

This would also be the first time when the missile would be test-fired from a newly-built warship, they added. Till now, the missiles were being fired from warships that were retrofitted to carry out the launches.India has ordered three Talwar-class warships to be built in Russia and all three of them would be fitted with vertical launchers.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby Jamal K. Malik » 09 Feb 2010 18:55

Agni-III: India, China do not pose a threat to each other
Beijing, Feb 9 (PTI) Describing its ties with India as "friendly and cooperative," China today said both countries did not pose mutual threat.

Dismissing reports that India's nuclear-capable Agni-III missile, which has a range of 3,500 km posed a threat to China, Foreign Ministry spokesman Ma Zhaoxu said China and India were having friendly and cooperative relations.

"I don't want to interpret or comment on the reports," Ma said when asked to comment on the February seven launch of Agni-III which put China's major cities within its strike range.

"The China-India relation is friendly and cooperative.

China will not be a threat to India, and nor will India pose a threat to China," Ma was quoted as saying by state-run Xinhua news agency.

A-III has changed the relation as friendly. :rotfl:

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby Kanson » 09 Feb 2010 19:35

SivaVijay wrote:Novice alert:

We now have a dependable long range capability, we also have a advanced maneovering missile in Shaurya, can't we wed this to make a kick @** AShM?


A novice reply: Sometime back, someone said in the internet, IN has a requirement for min 700 km missile, as it finds 300km Brahmos as short legged. This was much before the announcement of K-15/Shourya.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby K_Rohit » 09 Feb 2010 19:41

Kanson wrote:
SivaVijay wrote:Novice alert:

We now have a dependable long range capability, we also have a advanced maneovering missile in Shaurya, can't we wed this to make a kick @** AShM?


A novice reply: Sometime back, someone said in the internet, IN has a requirement for min 700 km missile, as it finds 300km Brahmos as short legged. This was much before the announcement of K-15/Shourya.


Some more novice thoughts- dont we need a radar or tracking ability first? We may be able to develop missiles with ranges at over 700 Km, but unless we have a radar and tracking system which covers that distance, whats the point?

Which begs the question...how is target identification and tracking done for Brahmos? I doubt the ship radars have that range...so it would have to be KA-28s/KA-31s. Do they have the range and have we seen KA-31s deployed on frigates and destroyers? I thought they were solely meant for the carrier?

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby Kanson » 09 Feb 2010 19:50

^^ Valid point. Dont know exactly how it could be. May be for this not for high sea. But more nearer to home/base.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby Philip » 09 Feb 2010 20:00

There is a very small pic in a not too old isue of the "F" mag showing an SSGN colour cutaway drg.The meandering article appears to give the impression that this is our indigenous "SSGN" design which will be built along with the ATV class.The design is for a sub of about 5000t surfaced,probably 6-6500t submerged,which has 4 silos similar to that on the ATV,most probably the K-15 ,with approx. 3 missiles per silo.Speed given 25kts.The sail is different to that on the ATV and resembles the Akula-2/3 with it crew escape module and a large torpedo room for about 2--24 TTs.missiles,etc.There is a shrouded screw shown and a cylindrical bow sonar.The article says that the sub's non-nuclear eqpt. will be built with DCNS imput,who are the Scorpene manufacturers, in an arrangement similar to that which France has signed on with Brazil.There has been little further news about this anywhere else.The intriguing detail is the section abaft the sail with the silos for the missiles,identical to what has been featured for the ATV.This indicates that the first ATV is meant to validate a design that can be common for an SSBN -with a lengthened hull to accomodate more missile silos and a more powerful reactor or twin reactors,and an SSGN using the K-15 missile which can have both nuclear and non-nuclear warheads.THus the ATV and its missiles appear to be killing two birds (SSBN/SSGN) with one design.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby negi » 09 Feb 2010 20:10

Brahmos does not have a 290/300km range in sea skimming mode (primarily the Anti ship mode) iirc it should be around 150km , throw in a IN Sea King equipped with a Super Searcher surface search radar and one can engage targets in and around 100km radius of a Delhi class destroyer when operating all alone , with a Do-228 or even AWACS feed it might be possible to exploit the Brahmos's long range.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby Rahul M » 09 Feb 2010 20:19

A novice reply: Sometime back, someone said in the internet, IN has a requirement for min 700 km missile, as it finds 300km Brahmos as short legged. This was much before the announcement of K-15/Shourya.
don't think that's quite a correct assessment for the anti-ship role. larger range will be primarily required for LA role. do you mean some navy official said it ? strange if so.
except the gigantic russian anti-aircraft carrier missiles, all current anti-ship missiles all over the world have ranges in and around 300 km or less. even the russians operate a large no of missiles of this class.
other than the problem with IDing a target at that range which rohit mentioned, the flight time will also be very high giving the target ship ample time to react. the solution then is to greatly increase the speed of the missile, which is what the russians did on their monstrous anti-ship missiles. unfortunately that also increases the size and weight of the missile meaning that only very large cruisers can carry them.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby Kanson » 09 Feb 2010 21:01

Its a novice reply. So just leave it at that.

all current anti-ship missiles all over the world have ranges in and around 300 km or less.
all the reason for demanding a greater range if its true, isnt it?

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby Rahul M » 09 Feb 2010 21:12

unless the attendant problems are solved it is un-realistic.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby Gagan » 10 Feb 2010 18:53

Philip wrote:There is a very small pic in a not too old isue of the "F" mag showing an SSGN colour cutaway drg.

Philip-ji please post a link if its online or a scan if it is not.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby Kanson » 10 Feb 2010 19:08

Rahul M wrote:unless the attendant problems are solved it is un-realistic.

as long as Tomahawk AShm [TASM] can find a role, there is always possibility of others fielding a longer range missile.

the flight time will also be very high giving the target ship ample time to react. the solution then is to greatly increase the speed of the missile, which is what the russians did on their monstrous anti-ship missiles. unfortunately that also increases the size and weight of the missile meaning that only very large cruisers can carry them.

Maybe, you say, there is a possibility of K-15 fitting that bill ?




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