Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

[Cain Marko]

Hybrid motor – Dr Saraswat meant dual pulse solid propellant motor as described earlier by Austin & me. That is the latest in thing in propulsion, it allows the 276 kg Barak 8 fly longer and perform better than the 720 kg Akash.

Noob questions:

So does this make it somewhat similar to the Meteor as well since said missile is supposed to use dual pulse motor? I take it that the advantage for such a design is allowing for powered flight in last stages which can be v. useful in catching fast moving targets ala fighters. No wonder then that both Meteor and Barak 8 are mainly used to bring down fighters.

Point is, what advantages does this offer for a missile that will normally attend to stationery targets like ammo dumps or airfields (or possibly carriers)? Does it help in achieving/maintaining hypersonic speed? Or does it enable better terminal manouvering whereby enemy air defence cannot intercept it?

CM.

[Picklu]

Some of the reasoning in the thread are reminding me of POK2 and "Akash and it's nuclear payload". When it comes to cutting edge technology I would be very cautious to read between the lines of senior technocrats and assume something super duper based on one or two terms used by them in an interview meant for mango people who do not find anything wrong with 200 cm diameter of Trishul missile.
Till date, the technology used(like Solid Fuel Ramjet, PESA, IIR based ATGM etc) in most successful DRDO projects have been first used and proved somewhere else(not necessarily in India). So something as advance as hybrid propulsion will not appear suddenly one fine morning when that technology has not been proven yet. It is better to be cautious about the claims right now rather than backpedal later.

[ramana]

Have they completed root cause analysis for the Agni-II failures last year?

[yossarian]

Have they completed root cause analysis for the Agni-II failures last year?

According to India Today, Feb 22nd Issue, (Quoted from Avinash Chander, Programme Director AGNI), YES. Apparently both failed tests were due to quality issues in production. One was due to 'poor quality wiring' and in other case 'problems with control motors due to shoddy manufacturing'.
Corrective measure has been to streamline production systems and and impose strict quality measures on '150' industries involved in manufacturing.

[John]

May i humbly submit the Indian superiority in Missile technology in the words of Seniors instrumental to DRDO agency's achivement.
1. Akash
http://www.drdo.org/dpi/prahlada_interview.html

Tactical missiles, which strike several war jets flying faster than sound, are more complex. Only three or four countries such as the US, Russia and France have developed operational multitarget-handling surface-to-air missile systems. With last month's user trials of Akash, India has entered the club. China and Taiwan may soon follow suit.
.

No offense but that article is Patriot being liquid fueled... As for the engine there is reason why russians moved away from ramjet for SA-11 (SA-6 had poor speed, cannot be throttled, ramjet is limited to only 20 seconds of burn rate).

But there is something more to Akash. It uses solid fuel. No country, except Russia, has mastered solid fuel technology in tactical missiles. Not even the US. That way, DRDO scientists consider Akash superior to the US Patriot. Unlike Patriot, Akash does not coast while it approaches the target, and thus has a higher kill probability. Liquid-fuelled missiles like Patriot would have burnt up all the fuel before they reach the target. In solid-fuel systems, the fuel is rationed so that the velocity is maintained throughout the flight. "Because this missile has an integrated ram-rocket, manoeuvrability is highest. The engine is 'on' throughout the flight. The thrust is on till the missile intercepts the target," explained Prahlada.

[Gerard]

From Chengappa's article

Meanwhile, scientists have already identified the glitches that have marred the two flights of the Agni II variant last year. Chander says they have determined that "in both instances these were caused by quality-related causes". In one flight, the power short-circuited because of poor quality wiring. And in the other, there were problems with the control motors because of shoddy manufacturing. The missile team has now taken steps to streamline production systems and impose strict quality control measures on the 150 industries--both public and private--they rely on to build the Agni systems. In the meantime, scientists are also working on a variant of Agni II to make it road mobile. It is already rail mobile. This is necessary because it would allow the defence forces to transport the missile to any part of the country and, if required, with stealth.

[ramana]

Are the control motors mentioned electric?

[D Roy]

sorry for this late reply,

Kanson,

the Iskander program apparently also includes a cruise missile which according to some Russian sources is called the R-500.

On a different note, the developers of the Shaurya are not much concerned about its IR signature and the missile seems to have a fully powered flight profile.

[Austin]

No offense but that article is Patriot being liquid fueled... As for the engine there is reason why russians moved away from ramjet for SA-11 (SA-6 had poor speed, cannot be throttled, ramjet is limited to only 20 seconds of burn rate).

Ramjet is again back in fashion for LR AAM for higher kinematics that they offer .

OT they have tested PAC-3 MSE variant offering performance improvement and dual pulse rocket http://www.defense-aerospace.com/articl ... arget.html

[Austin]

the Iskander program apparently also includes a cruise missile which according to some Russian sources is called the R-500.

R-500 is nothing but Ground Launched Klub with ~ 500 km Range.

On a different note, the developers of the Shaurya are not much concerned about its IR signature and the missile seems to have a fully powered flight profile.

Why should it be a concern considering that its an all powered flight with a slow burning solid rocket motor , there is no way they can hide it so its better live with it and improve on where it matters which is hypersonic speed and late detection by RF source and mobility.

[ramana]

The greatness of DRDO is they do a through root cause analysis and fix the problems. They have been consistent in this approach since the Agni TD second test.

[D Roy]

Austin,

the comment about the IR signature was not criticism on my part.
And as far as hypersonic systems are concerned every developer is worried about tracking by IIR, which is getting better by the day.


Secondly, I am aware of the view that the Klub-M shas imply been adapted to the Iskander launcher and that this is called the R-500. something of this sort may have been displayed at MAKS 2007 as well. However there have also been claims that it is a new missile. if you can show me a comment by a russian general who says that it is indeed the Klub the case will be closed once and for all.

Nevertheless the Iskander M and E are obviously not cruise missiles.

by the way take a look at this photo,

http://visualrian.com/images/item/155216

[Austin]

Austin,

the comment about the IR signature was not criticism on my part.
And as far as hypersonic systems are concerned every developer is worried about tracking by IIR, which is getting better by the day.

D Roy tracking by IIR is indeed a genuine concern as you have stated , but there is nothing much one can do about it unless one can design a missile that can fly without an engine or uses a sail to fly one has to live with it and try to over come it with other means.

IIR is indeed getting sensitive and discrimination is getting better as new generation of IIR sensors are being developed but Radar still remains a primary source for tracking and firecontrol for most SAM.

There is no way one can reduce IR signature of any missile or aircraft unless one goes through that extra mile and develops something like B-2 which can also be detected by IIR systems atleast I came across one IIR image of B-2 in flight. They can reduce it ofcourse but thats about it.

Shourya tries to beat the system by Hypersonic Speed , Low Profile Trajectory ( DT ) , Accuracy and Mobility . But with system like THAAD that can intercept at minimum 40 Km altitude and S-400 which can do the same at long range the jury is open , but I would still put my money on Shourya than build a S-400 to defend against it.

Secondly, I am aware of the view that the Klub-M shas imply been adapted to the Iskander launcher and that this is called the R-500. something of this sort may have been displayed at MAKS 2007 as well. However there have also been claims that it is a new missile. if you can show me a comment by a russian general who says that it is indeed the Klub the case will be closed once and for all.

Nevertheless the Iskander M and E are obviously not cruise missiles.

by the way take a look at this photo,

http://visualrian.com/images/item/155216

Indeed Iskander system has two missile
R-500 which is a GLCM derived from Land Attack Klub
Iskander-M - its a quasi ballistic missile which does the same trajectory as shourya does @ 50 Km and @ Mach 4.

Right now I do not have any link since this is based on what I know and read about it but here is something on Klub from AFM

http://i25.photobucket.com/albums/c52/b ... k/klub.jpg

[D Roy]

By the way,
the B-2 image I think was taken by a Eurofighter . was the range disclosed?


Coming back to the IR vulnerability of hypersonic systems,

the threat is less from land based SAMs but more from missiles like the NCADE ( newer faster versions) with new generation IIR seekers fired from aircraft in the kinematic and altitude class of the MIG-31, F-22 and possibly the PAK-FA.

In the recent past MHD propulsion systems were seen as a way out in some quarters. these would not only boost speed but also create an IR suppression wall around the hypersonic system. other plasma technologies have also been discussed.

On the R-500 front,

as I said there is no agreement on that yet. while a modified iskander launcher was displayed at MAKS-2007 that could fire a missile from the Klub family there have also been reports of it being a new missile.

Anyway, if this discussion has to be continued, I guess it should be taken to the Intl. Aerospace thread.

[Kanson]

No offense but that article is Patriot being liquid fueled... As for the engine there is reason why russians moved away from ramjet for SA-11 (SA-6 had poor speed, cannot be throttled, ramjet is limited to only 20 seconds of burn rate).

But there is something more to Akash. It uses solid fuel. No country, except Russia, has mastered solid fuel technology in tactical missiles. Not even the US. That way, DRDO scientists consider Akash superior to the US Patriot. Unlike Patriot, Akash does not coast while it approaches the target, and thus has a higher kill probability. Liquid-fuelled missiles like Patriot would have burnt up all the fuel before they reach the target. In solid-fuel systems, the fuel is rationed so that the velocity is maintained throughout the flight. "Because this missile has an integrated ram-rocket, manoeuvrability is highest. The engine is 'on' throughout the flight. The thrust is on till the missile intercepts the target," explained Prahlada.

There is no offence to be taken. This is from an interview and an error is possible. If one goes beyond nitpicking, one can see he is clearly comparing solid rocket propulsion of Patriot with solid ram rocket propulsion of Akash. Akash both as a system and individually as a missile moved beyond SA-6. Ceiling height, speed much beyond SA-6. No point in comparison. Patriot goes to higher trajectory and coasts. Its ceiling is 15 km. Whereas for Akash it is 18km and it will have high terminal manoeuverability even at that height. He is right in comparing both as both has limited ABM role. Little known and little talked about information is both Akash and Trishul ( yes the same cancelled Trishul) are/were considered for ABM measures. Some years back a member of this forum took pain to share here the photos depiciting the Prithvi missile in Akash system. At that time PAD and ABM programme were not in public domain. And the N warhead for Akash is nothing new and was repeated several times. So privy to all these information, Dr. Prahlada may be in a better position to compare these two missiles.

[Kanson]

D Roy

Sir, hope you heard about the rolling manoeuver imparted to cool the Shaurya missile. Further smoke screens can block IR. Similarly anything which shields the missile can escape from IR detection.

There are more than one range quoted for Iskander-K version. One is ~300 km as Austin says and another 1000 km variant and sometimes even more range. Not sure both are one and the same.
http://www.kommersant.com/page.asp?id=1052937

After 2009 Iskander-M missiles’ firepower may be even improved by means of equipping them with high-accuracy subsonic cruise missiles R-500, which are now tested. The range of these missiles, which are analogue of the U.S. Tomahawk, can amount to 1,000 kilometers. A standard Iskander-M launcher can have six missiles of this type, instead of two ballistic missiles (such a complex will be then called Iskander-K).

Austin ji, any confirmation on this ?

[Austin]

There are more than one range quoted for Iskander-K version. One is ~300 km as Austin says and another 1000 km variant and sometimes even more range. Not sure both are one and the same.
http://www.kommersant.com/page.asp?id=1052937

After 2009 Iskander-M missiles’ firepower may be even improved by means of equipping them with high-accuracy subsonic cruise missiles R-500, which are now tested. The range of these missiles, which are analogue of the U.S. Tomahawk, can amount to 1,000 kilometers. A standard Iskander-M launcher can have six missiles of this type, instead of two ballistic missiles (such a complex will be then called Iskander-K).

Austin ji, any confirmation on this ?

Well GLCM with ranges between 500 to 5,500 Km are banned as per INF treaty , so GLCM/BM with ranges greater than 500 km is not possible.

So Iskander system ( CM/BM ) will have to comply by INF treaty and has a range of ~ 490 km

[Kanson]

But lately there seems to be provocation to nullify the treaty, right ? I'm not too sure where they stand now.

[D Roy]

funnily enough ,
I remember a report from a few years ago where the Russian commentator/official cited India and Iran when talking about pulling out of the INF treaty.

By the way Kanson,
the developers did mention the the rolling maneuver ...

[tsarkar]

CM,

The difference between Meteor and Shourya is that, while both are dual pulse and solid fueled, Meteor is air breathing while Shourya is not.

“Point is, what advantages does this offer for a missile that will normally attend to stationery targets like ammo dumps or airfields (or possibly carriers)? Does it help in achieving/maintaining hypersonic speed? Or does it enable better terminal manouvering whereby enemy air defence cannot intercept it?”

This question highlights the wisdom of our planners.

India’s strategic doctrine is responsive rather than pre-emptive. So unlike Israel, we can do nothing to prevent a build up on our borders or enemy naval bases.

However when our enemies go on the offensive, submarine launched Shourya can shred their command nodes and support infrastructure like ports, embarkation points, POL & ammo dumps. Ship launched BrahMos will further support this action. This will dent their offensive capabilities significantly. Hypersonic and terminal maneuvering will help evade any air defences. Same goes for any land offensive.

Our western neighbor claims nuclear escalation if the conventional war goes against it. It now knows India has a nuclear response far better than jury rigged F-16 and C-130. So while it may escalate, the Indian response will send then back to the dinosaur age.

Our eastern neighbor knows it will be inflicted with damage beyond its acceptable threshold.

With PAD/AAD and Shourya/Brahmos, the nuclear blackmail won’t work.

Shourya expands the options available to commanders during conventional and nuclear conflicts.

[D Roy]

moreover,

Shaurya can also be part of a fail deadly system. given our close personal association with the soviets and their methods during the cold war ,

In any case a country as averse to pre-emption as our own must have a cynical nuclear response system.

[Kanson]

By the way Kanson,
the developers did mention the the rolling maneuver ...

You see that still as a problem.

[D Roy]

Not as a problem, no..

[John]

There is no offence to be taken. This is from an interview and an error is possible. If one goes beyond nitpicking, one can see he is clearly comparing solid rocket propulsion of Patriot with solid ram rocket propulsion of Akash. Akash both as a system and individually as a missile moved beyond SA-6. Ceiling height, speed much beyond SA-6. No point in comparison. Patriot goes to higher trajectory and coasts. Its ceiling is 15 km. Whereas for Akash it is 18km and it will have high terminal manoeuverability even at that height. He is right in comparing both as both has limited ABM role. Little known and little talked about information is both Akash and Trishul ( yes the same cancelled Trishul) are/were considered for ABM measures. Some years back a member of this forum took pain to share here the photos depiciting the Prithvi missile in Akash system. At that time PAD and ABM programme were not in public domain. And the N warhead for Akash is nothing new and was repeated several times. So privy to all these information, Dr. Prahlada may be in a better position to compare these two missiles.

Where did you get 18KM Ceiling for the Akash, i know few sites like wiki got that from globalsecurity but most including BR quote it at 15 km. Same ceiling was quoted for SA-6 but due to limitations of its illuminator it could only engage targets upto 12 km IIRC.

As for speed both missiles are quoted at mach 2.8 (~800 m/s at 15km) and being able to engage targets with speed upto 600 m/s.

[vavinash]

The 3D CAR has a range of 150km and Altitude of 18 Km as per http://www.akashsam.com/about.htm.It is reasonable to expect Akash's altitude would be lesser at about 15 Km.

[Kanson]

^^ could that be true for receding target? Instead of getting Brochure blinded, lets ask height ceiling is effective by what measures. In anycase, missile can do 18km, even if we take effective height listed here as true for the sake of discussion with having active seeker provision missile is desgined to do much more than 15 km ceiling.

Anyway there is no point in comparing SA-6 with Akash. From Wiki:

The design of the missile is somewhat similar to that of SA-6 with four long tube ramjet inlet ducts mounted mid-body between wings. For pitch/yaw control four clipped triangular moving wings are mounted on mid-body. For roll control four inline clipped delta fins with ailerons are mounted before the tail. However, the internal schema shows a different layout with an onboard digitial computer, no Semi-active seeker, different propellant, different actuators and command guidance datalinks. The Akash carries an onboard radio-proximity fuse.

[Kanson]

By the way Kanson,
the developers did mention the the rolling maneuver ...

You see that still as a problem.

Roy ji
The question what i intended to ask is the rolling manoeuver it performs is effective in suppressing the IR signature ? Or more measures needed ? But it came wrongly i guess.

[negi]

Patriot has a much higher ceiling than 15 km (iirc 24/25km ) and the newer blocks have the HTK vehicles (i.e. powered terminal stage with active guidance until impact) so don't know how can one compare it with the Akash system.

[ramana]

Hindu, Andhra Pradesh Section

Missile Man-II, looking ahead and farther

Missile Man-II, looking ahead and farther

GUNTUR: Missile Man of India A.P.J. Abdul Kalam's junior colleague Vijay Kumar Saraswat, chosen for the prestigious Dr. Yelavarthy Nayudamma Award 2009, is with love called Missile Man-II, for his dedication to achieve higher goals every year and reaching a farther target with missile technology developed indigenously.

If he has achieved three consecutive successful launches of Agni-III, he has set his eyes on Agni-IV and Agni-V that can strike targets that very few nations can dream of.

Currently he is the Scientific Advisor to Defence Minister, Secretary, Department of Defence Research and Development and Director General of Defence Research and Development Organisation.

Mr. Saraswat has been instrumental in development of various missile programmes like Prithvi-I, Prithvi-II, Dhanush, Devil and the Air Defence project.

Under his stewardship, the DRDO had achieved success in completing the tests of Agni-III missile with a range of 3,500 km. Agni V with a range of over 5,000 km would be launched in 2011 and various aspects related to Shaurya, a nuclear capable hypersonic cruise missile, were two big challenges that he was pursuing.

Born in Gwalior on May 25, 1949, Mr. Saraswat, graduated in Mechanical Engineering from Jiwaji University in 1970 and took the Master's degree from the Indian Institute of Science, Bangalore.

He obtained his doctorate in combustion engineering from Osmania University in 2000.

The scientist began his career in the DRDO at its Defence R & D Laboratory in Hyderabad in 1972.

Entrusted with the task of developing Devil, India's first liquid propulsion engine, he soon rose to become the Project Director of DRDL.

He embarked on a futuristic air defence programme, encompassing the development of complex anti-ballistic missile systems, and demonstrated the interception of an incoming hostile ballistic missile in exo-atmospheric regions in November 2006 and March 2009 and endo-atmospheric regions in December 2007, when he was the Chief Controller (Missiles and Strategic Systems) and Programme Director ‘AD' (Air Defence).

Recipients
Earlier recipients of the Dr. Nayudamma Award include T. Ramasami, A. Sivathanu Pillai, Nori Dattatreyuudu, Sam Pitroda, G. Madhavan Nair, Kota Harinarayana, V.K. Aatre, R. Chidambaram, R.A. Mashelkar, J.S. Bajaj, K. Kasturirangan, Verghese Kurien, S.Z. Qasim, M.G. K. Menon and M.S. Swaminathan among others.

[JimmyJ]

Regarding whether Shourya is a cruise missile or not---

Would it be possible to figure out whether there was any prior notification by the India Government to Pakistan as any BM test has to be notified while cruise missiles test are not?

JMT

[D Roy]

Kanson bhai,

In my opinion and this is an opinion not specific to the Shaurya-

the rolling maneuver is not enough for a hypersonic atmospheric vehicle.

[Cain Marko]

Quick question - was Pakistan notified of the Shaurya test?

CM.

[Austin]

Tomorrow if they fire Agni-3 at 100 km sustained Depressed Trajectory ,they will call that too as hypersonic cruise missile

[Kanson]

India has developed so many missile mans...not suprising to consider herself as one of the Missile powers of this world.

http://chhindits.blogspot.com/2010/02/i ... -drdo.html
Dr Avinash Chander receiving DRDO Technology Day award from Defence Minister A K Antony in Delhi.

[Kanson]

Where did you get 18KM Ceiling for the Akash, i know few sites like wiki got that from globalsecurity but most including BR quote it at 15 km. Same ceiling was quoted for SA-6 but due to limitations of its illuminator it could only engage targets upto 12 km IIRC.

http://sify.com/finance/iaf-orders-anot ... eegcj.html

BEL chairman and managing director Ashwani Kumar Datt said that the first order was worth Rs.12.21 billion.

Designed and developed by the state-run Defence Research and Development Organisation (DRDO), the Akash missile defence system is part of the country's integrated guided missile development programme.

'The missile can target an enemy aircraft up to 30 km away, at altitudes up to 18,000 meters and can be fired from both tracked and wheeled platforms,' Datt told reporters on the margins of the function.

John here is the requested proof. Can the concerned webmasters upadate the Akash missile page.

[narayana]

This was speculated by BR jingo's from long time
Latest Vayu has a report on a new AAM-L,being jointly developed by India and Russia,named "K-100-1"with NPO Novator proposed partner DRDO,this is a new variant of R-172,and range between 250-400km,this missile is a Awacs Killer. bye bye Erieye

[sanjaykumar]

http://www.domain-b.com/aero/mil_avi/mi ... rsion.html


Old report which I think has been overlooked

''We have achieved a speed of Mach 5.26 in our laboratory tests of the hypersonic version of the BrahMos

Dr Pillai also said the hypersonic version was powered by a scramjet engine that is also used for launching satellites at low cost

[vavinash]

This was speculated by BR jingo's from long time
Latest Vayu has a report on a new AAM-L,being jointly developed by India and Russia,named "K-100-1"with NPO Novator proposed partner DRDO,this is a new variant of R-172,and range between 250-400km,this missile is a Awacs Killer. bye bye Erieye

Could someone scan the vayu article and post it?

[sumshyam]

Missile falls in civilian area in Chirala of Andhra Pradesh

A missile which could have been test fired by the Indian Air Force from its Suryalanka Air Force Station fell in a civilian area in the Chirala town of Prakasam district on Thursday night.

No one was injured as the missile did not explode.

The four-foot-long missile had four directional fins. It fell near the railway track adjacent to the compound of the Indian Leaf Tobacco Division (ILTD) of the ITC. The location where the missile fell is surrounded by houses.

Chirala circle inspector Ramakoteshwara Rao told The Hindu: “The diameter is as big as the steering of a jeep. We do not know whether it has got explosives, but it seemed to have burned. It’s very hot”, Mr. Rao said.

Police could only conjecture that the missile could have been fired from the Suryalanka station. There was no official confirmation from the Air Force authorities.

[Kailash]

Dr Pillai also said the hypersonic version was powered by a scramjet engine that is also used for launching satellites at low cost

Pure DDM. What exactly does this mean? B-2 is carrying an indian scramjet engine? or a russian scramjet currently used in launching satellites?