Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Austin
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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby Austin » 22 Mar 2010 09:03

John wrote:I believe he is referring to altering its flight path to approach the target from different direction most modern AShM are capable of that.


Yes the subsonic ones but not the known supersonic ones though , may be thats what Brahmos achieved with this test ?

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby kit » 22 Mar 2010 11:40

Am thinking that is more of software guidance changes than any hardware/propulsion .. quite within India s reach

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby Austin » 22 Mar 2010 11:45

kit wrote:Am thinking that is more of software guidance changes than any hardware/propulsion .. quite within India s reach


Yep software onlee , they probably are testing some block upgrades of the S/W for Brahmos adding in new capability via S/W upgrades

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby ramana » 22 Mar 2010 21:25

He might be referring to trajectory shaping profiles, that were hitherto confined to boost glide vehicles like the Agni-II being impelemented on supersonic vehicles like Brahmos. If so it would be hard for most SAMs to counter the Brahmos.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby John » 22 Mar 2010 22:07

Austin wrote:Yep software onlee , they probably are testing some block upgrades of the S/W for Brahmos adding in new capability via S/W upgrades

Well Granit was known to have those features (fly in swarms, hi-lo flight profile etc) and Klub 3M-54E missile should have that feature as well since it relatively new.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby Karan M » 23 Mar 2010 02:11

Gentlemen,

If I may, I believe all this talk of "flying in swarm, having artifical intelligence and choosing which target to attack" is just a big myth, which came about due to some speculative text, and is then reported by everyone including Janes and the authoritative naval weapons guides. On reading some old Russian texts, none of these heavy claims were made. But the Russians did have very advanced targeting systems including combination of aviation, submarine, satellite and OTH targeting means. I have yet to find any serious thing to support these claims of such advanced datalinking and processing.

Similar claims were said on the internet for the Brahmos missile, but in reality Navy did not ask for any of this, nor is it there.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby Craig Alpert » 23 Mar 2010 04:13


India to get cluster bomb CBU-105

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby negi » 23 Mar 2010 04:57

^ Sounds like Shiv Aroor .

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby Surya » 23 Mar 2010 08:04

From the article

Consider this - a column of Pakistani tanks rumble towards the Indian border, ready to blast their way into the country. The Indian border defences watch in horror as the Pakistani tanks approach. Then B-52 aircraft flies in and drops a CBU-105 bomb. A single bomb releases several small bomblets which identify their individual targets destroying them almost simultaneously.



I am not sure whether to laugh or cry at this. :eek:

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby shiv » 23 Mar 2010 08:17

I hope we have signed the EULA for the CBU 105. No?

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby Boudhayan » 23 Mar 2010 10:36

Surya wrote:From the article

Consider this - a column of Pakistani tanks rumble towards the Indian border, ready to blast their way into the country. The Indian border defences watch in horror as the Pakistani tanks approach. Then B-52 aircraft flies in and drops a CBU-105 bomb. A single bomb releases several small bomblets which identify their individual targets destroying them almost simultaneously.



I am not sure whether to laugh or cry at this. :eek:



The video also shows a B52 coming in and dropping the CBU. I believe HT should have been careful while creating this video. Atleast they should be aware of what bombers we use while reporting defense related news.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby Gagan » 23 Mar 2010 10:49

This is the original CBU 105 video that has been 'modified' for the indian presentation.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=THZvZ6S4C14

http://www.futurefirepower.com/the-sensor-fused-weapon-cbu-97-cluster-bomb-video

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby disha » 23 Mar 2010 11:00

Gagan wrote:This is the original CBU 105 video that has been 'modified' for the indian presentation.


Beat me to it! The one in HT was a cut & paste job from future weapons voiced over by Shiv Aroor.

I was also surprised about CBU-105 http://www.fas.org/man/dod-101/sys/dumb/cbu-97.htm was reported to be inducted by Shiv Aroor on HT 2 days back. Or should this go into "Aroors in defense reporting thread" ;-)

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby disha » 23 Mar 2010 11:07

shiv wrote:I hope we have signed the EULA for the CBU 105. No?


No it is for Promoting political stability, peace and economic progress in South Asia.

Whose peace and whose progress are unanswered.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby KiranM » 23 Mar 2010 19:07

Austin wrote:
After today’s test, India has become the first and only country in the world to have a "manoeuvrable supersonic cruise missile in its inventory," he said in New Delhi.


Why does Dr Pillai claims that part that we are the first and only country in the world ?

AFAIK Kh-22 ,SS-N-22,Kh-15 and SS-N-19 were manoeuvrable and supersonic cruise missile and some of them were in existance 2-3 decades before Brahmos.

My understanding is he is claiming it is the first anti-ship supersonic cruise missile to be launched vertically.

Regards,
Kiran

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby Gagan » 25 Mar 2010 04:02

A cbu-95 graphic:
Image

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby Kartik » 25 Mar 2010 04:08

As usual, the word "Blistering" slips in when Shiv Aroor gives a voice over..and this a chap who was cribbing about how the old days Doordarshan programs on defence had noisy songs playing in the background. his programs are no better, and are in general less on info, more on bluster.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby SSridhar » 25 Mar 2010 08:25

Bravo BrahMos - Edit in The Hindu
Excerpts
Astonishingly, BrahMos performed its intricate manoeuvres at 2.8 Mach, with its propulsion fully switched on during the whole course of its flight. (Normally, when a missile performs manoeuvres, its engines will not operate.) Another highlight was the advanced indigenous software for way point manoeuvring that enables the low-flying missile to hit a target vessel taking shelter, for instance, behind a rocky island.
Given its fast reaction — it takes off in four minutes from the time the command is given from launch headquarters — the missile has virtually no equal in a hypothetical conventional battlefield.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby Philip » 25 Mar 2010 11:37

US ESSM (planned to be installed on Paki OH Perry frigates being gifted to them by the US,as was done with Oz's Perrys) and SM-3 missiles can theoretically shoot down supersonic missiles-their designated task,as they are faster than the incoming missile.The ability of the B'Mos to dramatically alter its flight path when within terminal range allows it the extra element of difficulty in countering it,especially if incoming missiles are fired in salvoes to arrive simultaneously.Once we have developed the hypersonic version of B/Mos,we will have achieved a quantum leap ahead of our enemies,real and potential and with even longer ranged missiles like Shourya,could sanitise the IOR using both sea-based and land platforms,given our unique sub-continental geographical location and that of our island territories.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby biswas » 25 Mar 2010 13:05

Philip wrote:US ESSM (planned to be installed on Paki OH Perry frigates being gifted to them by the US,as was done with Oz's Perrys) and SM-3 missiles can theoretically shoot down supersonic missiles-their designated task,as they are faster than the incoming missile.The ability of the B'Mos to dramatically alter its flight path when within terminal range allows it the extra element of difficulty in countering it,especially if incoming missiles are fired in salvoes to arrive simultaneously.Once we have developed the hypersonic version of B/Mos,we will have achieved a quantum leap ahead of our enemies,real and potential and with even longer ranged missiles like Shourya,could sanitise the IOR using both sea-based and land platforms,given our unique sub-continental geographical location and that of our island territories.


Is the ESSM confirmed to be on the Pak OH Perry frigs?

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby bhavik » 25 Mar 2010 13:28


ramana
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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby ramana » 25 Mar 2010 18:32



Its a boost glide vehicle. Look it up.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby ramana » 25 Mar 2010 21:08

Gagan,
Can you make such illustrations on call basis to explain concepts?

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby sanjaykumar » 25 Mar 2010 21:40

The Shaurya has none of these issues. Its solid-fuel, two-stage rocket accelerates the missile to six times the speed of sound before it reaches an altitude of 40 kilometers (125,000 feet), after which it levels out and cruises towards the target, powered by its onboard fuel.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby ramana » 25 Mar 2010 23:36

In the book "Lightning Bolts" William Yengst notes that the Germans first noted that artillery shells fired at high altitude end up overshooting the standard tables due to hypersonic lift in the rarefied atmosphere. The L/D has to be adjusted by using shorter shells. So maybe that could be the cause of the Krasnopol shells being off mark when tested in Kargil area?

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby Anujan » 25 Mar 2010 23:39

IIRC Krasnopol had problems with very high angles of firing because the sensors did not have enough lateral wide enough detection angle to pick up the illumination laser.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby negi » 26 Mar 2010 00:19

http://www.defenseindustrydaily.com/ind ... ive-02872/

The shells also displayed difficulties at high altitudes during the 1999 Kargil War. At first, the Army thought that the problem was with the designator so they replaced Israeli and French designators with original KBP equipment. Reports indicate, however, that this has not resolved the problems




PIB release

Lok Sabha

India's Russian Krasnopol inventory was proved defective during the Army test firing. The performance of the first lot of quantity 1000 rounds of projectiles procured in 1999 has deteriorated over the years the recently during test firing by the Army, it was observed that the performance was not upto the mark. Another quantity of 2000 projectiles procured in 2002 also did not perform to the desired standards in high altitude areas. The matter has been taken up with the vendor to rectify the ammunition to achieve the desired results and enhance its shelf life.

The total amount involved in purchasing 3000 rounds with 81 Laser Designators is US$ 111,950,488 (Rs. 522.44 crores)

This information was given by the Defence Minister Shri AK Antony in a written reply to Shri Amitava Nandy in Lok Sabha today

SKS / RAJ

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby ramana » 26 Mar 2010 00:39

Anujan and Negi, What the book mentions is that at high altitudes, hypersonic lift and drag kick in and shells overshoot. Thats what the Germans found out in WWII. And used it to develop hypersonic glide vehicle concepts.

Its a easy thing to verify by getting IIM aero dept to take a look athe Krasnopol shell dimensions.

So the root cause could be something beyond designators etc. The overshooting might require more battery power for the seeker.

Supersonic L/D max = 4(M+3)/(M)

M= Mach Number

So they need to make it draggy or use the same guidance gear on the 160mm mortar shell which should be slower.

or fire it from closer ranges with less charge.

But please dont kick it away.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby ramana » 26 Mar 2010 01:08


Uttam
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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby Uttam » 26 Mar 2010 18:41

Dhanush, Prithvi-2 to be testfired tomorrow March 26, 2010
Nuclear capable Dhanush and Prithvi-2 missile tests are likely to be conducted tomorrow, defence sources said here. "Agni-1, surface-to-surface single stage missile with 700 km range, will be taken up for test on Sunday," sources said adding that Defence Research Development Organisation and operational strategic units of army and naval forces would jointly conduct the operation.

They said nuclear capable Agni-1 would be test-fired from Wheeler Island, about 70 km across sea from Chandipur-on-sea. Prithvi-2, a missile with maximum range of 295 km, would be tested from the Integrated Test Range (ITR) at Chandipur, about 15 km from here.

Dhanush, the naval version of Prithvi, would be testfired from a naval ship off the Orissa coast, the sources said.

The supersonic cruise missile, Brahmos, jointly developed by India and Russia, had a successful trial on March 22, 2010 from a naval ship off the Orissa coast.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby skaranam » 26 Mar 2010 21:42

biswas wrote:
Is the ESSM confirmed to be on the Pak OH Perry frigs?


I do not think so...check this out...
A Perry for Pakistan: USS McInerney

Oliver Hazard Perry Class frigates still serve with the US Navy, but American ships have had their bow-mounted Mk.13 launch systems for SM-1 Standard air defense and RGM-84 Harpoon anti-ship missiles removed. Those changes leave just torpedoes and a 76mm naval gun for offense, and the 20mm Phalanx CIWS as the ships’ main defensive weapon. Barring further contracts, the dollar amounts and lack of contractor assistance strongly suggest that McInerney is being transferred to Pakistan “as is.”

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby Katare » 26 Mar 2010 21:46

Uttam wrote:Dhanush, Prithvi-2 to be testfired tomorrow March 26, 2010
Nuclear capable Dhanush and Prithvi-2 missile tests are likely to be conducted tomorrow, defence sources said here. "Agni-1, surface-to-surface single stage missile with 700 km range, will be taken up for test on Sunday," sources said adding that Defence Research Development Organisation and operational strategic units of army and naval forces would jointly conduct the operation.

They said nuclear capable Agni-1 would be test-fired from Wheeler Island, about 70 km across sea from Chandipur-on-sea. Prithvi-2, a missile with maximum range of 295 km, would be tested from the Integrated Test Range (ITR) at Chandipur, about 15 km from here.

Dhanush, the naval version of Prithvi, would be testfired from a naval ship off the Orissa coast, the sources said.

The supersonic cruise missile, Brahmos, jointly developed by India and Russia, had a successful trial on March 22, 2010 from a naval ship off the Orissa coast.


I like the increased frequency of testing for these strategic missiles....

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby Gerard » 27 Mar 2010 02:11

Editorial in the Hindu
Stopping ballistic missile
The Indian defensive shield too will have similar limitations: if a single nuclear-tipped missile gets through, the consequences will be calamitous. This country would do better to rely on diplomacy, rather than a chancy missile shield, to increase its security.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby Akshut » 27 Mar 2010 02:21

Image According to this logic, India has to choose- either Shield, or Diplomacy.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby sunilUpa » 27 Mar 2010 02:44

I guess Chindu editor makes a deal with robbers and thieves instead of securing their front door.

Having a missile defence doesn't mean that we get in to war at a drop of hat.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby Sagar G » 27 Mar 2010 02:55

This country would do better to rely on diplomacy, rather than a chancy missile shield, to increase its security.


Foolish, the writer is assuming that diplomacy is not chancy.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby VinodTK » 27 Mar 2010 07:40

India successfully tests N-capable Prithvi II, Dhanush missiles

BHUBANESWAR: India
early Saturday successfully tested two nuclear capable missiles Dhanush and Prithvi II in Orissa, official said.

"Both the missiles were successfully launched at the same time at 5.30 hours," SP Dash, director of the Integrated Test Range of Chandipur in Balasore district, told IANS.



Orissa: Nuclear-capable missiles successfully test-fired

The test firing of the short-range, surface-to-surface ballistic missile, which has already been inducted into the armed forces, was a user trial by the Indian Army. The sleek missile is "handled by the strategic force command", the sources said.


'Dhanush' missile test fired

Prithvi-II ballistic missile test fired

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby Mr_Li » 27 Mar 2010 09:08

<siscorred>

....
"Both the missiles were successfully launched at the same time at 5.30 hours," SP Dash, director of the Integrated Test Range of Chandipur in Balasore district, told IANS.


....

why send up two missiles skyward at the same time one muses,
after process of elimination only reply came was - so as not to wake up the villagers twice as often as one.

but congratulations on those who pressed the button.

- Mr. Li

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby shiv » 27 Mar 2010 09:24

Mr_Li wrote:
why send up two missiles skyward at the same time one muses,
after process of elimination only reply came was - so as not to wake up the villagers twice as often as one.

but congratulations on those who pressed the button.

- Mr. Li



It was the new button that was being tested..

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby K Mehta » 27 Mar 2010 11:11

x-posting from naval thread
Prithvi-II, Dhanush Tested Successfully Today-livefist
Salvo mode firings of theatre ballisic missiles Prithvi-II and a ship-launched variant, Dhanush, were tested successfully at dawn today at India's missile testing site off the country's South-East coast. The Dhanush was fired first, followed a few minutes later by the Prithvi-II. The tests were conducted by the Strategic Forces Command. This was a totally user-conducted test, though DRDO chief VK Saraswat is understood to have been in attendance -- he is of course best known for his work with the Prithvi programme. The Agni-I is scheduled to be tested tomorrow :D .

Any prior info on the Agony test :)


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