Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Mahesh_R
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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby Mahesh_R » 02 May 2010 11:12

Army to procure short-range missile system
The army is planning to procure a short-range surface to air missile (SRSAM) system to counter threats to cities and important installations in the country from enemy aircraft and missiles.

"We are planning to induct the 20 km-range SRSAM systems to strengthen our air defence capabilities to provide cover from aerial threats to our important bases and installations,"

The missile should also be able to target objects moving at speeds between zero to 500 meters per second including hovering targets such as Unmanned Aerial Vehicles (UAVs), fighter and surveillance aircraft and helicopters.


Our Akash doesn't fit in this requirements ???

rohitvats
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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby rohitvats » 02 May 2010 11:37

Mahesh_R wrote:<SNIP>

The army is planning to procure a short-range surface to air missile (SRSAM) system to counter threats to cities and important installations in the country from enemy aircraft and missiles.

<SNIP>

Our Akash doesn't fit in this requirements ???


How about reading the bold part of the statement above, again? And the re visit your question?

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby sum » 02 May 2010 11:46

The army is planning to procure a short-range surface to air missile (SRSAM) system to counter threats to cities and important installations in the country from enemy aircraft and missiles.

Didn't the IA also induct the SPYDER?

If not, this should cause their induction for sure.
Last edited by sum on 02 May 2010 11:53, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby Singha » 02 May 2010 11:50

SA15 "Tor" or Sypder (vl-python5 + vl-derby) could fit the bill. I think Spyder is a better bet because we are already buying it for various roles. plus the python5 being small and agile should be best for last ditch defences if derby leaks some missiles.

in urban areas like dilli I had once thought of mounting Kashtan type 30mm cannons atop tall buildings , but realize its not safe because
those cannon shells which miss will fall and explode on the ground, unlike missiles which can likely be programmed to explode harmlessly
in the air if they fall below a certain altitude.

we likely dont want a berserk kashtan-M posted atop karol bagh firing 1000s of rounds to take out a few baburs with 100 rounds hitting and 4900 falling on the market

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby David Siegel » 02 May 2010 11:54

rohitvats wrote:
Mahesh_R wrote:<SNIP>

The army is planning to procure a short-range surface to air missile (SRSAM) system to counter threats to cities and important installations in the country from enemy aircraft and missiles.

<SNIP>

Our Akash doesn't fit in this requirements ???


How about reading the bold part of the statement above, again? And the re visit your question?


No. I guess here the requirement is bit different. They are looking for missile with Active/Passive seeker, where as AKASH is purely Radar guided (that was the requirement anyways), without any seeker. I guess they can go ahead with Spyder SAM system as preferred by IAF in that class of SAM (Missile with Seeker). However IAF is also inducting Akash SAM in large number. So it is like having a variety of SAM with different capabilities though Kill radius may be more or less same.

However there were reports that even IA was considering purchases of AKASH SAM. So the current news of RFP for missile with seeker may not conflict with requirement of AKSAH.
http://www.business-standard.com/india/news/army-warmsto-akash-missile/375634/
http://knol.google.com/k/vijainder-k-thakur/akash-missile/yo54fmdhy2mq/57#view

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby Samay » 02 May 2010 12:27

^ it simply means the winner,other than akash, is already in, guess who?

also there were reports of making a jv to make missile-seekers in India,possibly for akash

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby Kersi D » 02 May 2010 12:39

Austin wrote:There are two missile IMO that fits as a perfect replacement for Soviet-vintage OSA-AK (SA-8) . One is the recently inducted Pantsyr-S1 mobile short-range gun and missile air defense system and the new TOR-M3 Short Range Missile though M3 capability is yet to be reveled.

But Pantsyr-S1 capability is quite phenomenal plus it is combined Gun/Missile System , fits well into IA RFI.

Infograph Pantsyr-S1 Missile

The Westen System are Crotale-VT1/NG Crotale NG which fit into the RFI in Range/Performance


Why not Barak ?

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby Kersi D » 02 May 2010 12:49

Singha wrote:SA15 "Tor" or Sypder (vl-python5 + vl-derby) could fit the bill. I think Spyder is a better bet because we are already buying it for various roles. plus the python5 being small and agile should be best for last ditch defences if derby leaks some missiles.

in urban areas like dilli I had once thought of mounting Kashtan type 30mm cannons atop tall buildings , but realize its not safe because those cannon shells which miss will fall and explode on the ground, unlike missiles which can likely be programmed to explode harmlessly in the air if they fall below a certain altitude.

we likely dont want a berserk kashtan-M posted atop karol bagh firing 1000s of rounds to take out a few baburs with 100 rounds hitting and 4900 falling on the market


Singha,
I think it is a good idea,

You are worried that that a few falling unexploded rounds may kill a few citizens. But one bomb/missile hitting a building in any city will kill a lot more people. A "few" Baburs will cause more damage than "many" 30 mm rounds


Another out-of-the-box suggestion
You must be aware that ONGC has a large number ( 50 - 70) process- and well- platforms in the seas around Mumbai.

On these platform we can have
A troop with MANPADS
A sonar with the transducer well below the sea level say 20 - 40 m below sea level/ A typical dipping sonar with the transducer fixed to one of the legs of the platfrom
A triple ASW torpedo launcher

Kersi

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby Yogesh » 02 May 2010 13:01

SSridhar wrote:“Initial studies suggest that we will be able to produce 250 more Su-30s armed with BrahMos missiles,” said Vladimir Sautov, vice-president for marketing.



who are the perspective customers any guesses (or am I am missing something ?) 250 seems to be a big number to me especially loaded with the BrahMos. Also how the integration cost being shared;modification in the a/c and missile itself (as for my gullible memory goes it was request from our side only, no ?) :-? :-?

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby JimmyJ » 02 May 2010 16:33

I got a question, could some one help me for an answer, I got it from the Indian Military aviation thread were fellow members mentioned about the Chinese SAM threat that India faces.

Are our Brahmos missiles capable of taking out SAMs? Can it be configured with an Anti Radiation seeker?

The reason is, when IA or IAF launches a cruise missile attack with Brahmos on Chinese installations, there SAMs are sure to turn ON, so if a few Brahmos are configured as ARMs, possibly the SAMs could be taken out at the same time. Our manned fighters will not have any risk too. I don't know if this looks awkward, but not being a military guy this question lingered in my mind for a long time.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby sum » 02 May 2010 17:56

Yogesh wrote:who are the perspective customers any guesses (or am I am missing something ?) 250 seems to be a big number to me especially loaded with the BrahMos. Also how the integration cost being shared;modification in the a/c and missile itself (as for my gullible memory goes it was request from our side only, no ?) :-? :-?

Interesting..So, we will have a big follow on order of "modified for Brahmos" Su-30s to go with the existing ~280 Su-30s?

Cant see RuAF buying 250( or even 150) Su-30s nor this "game changer" being offered to too many 3rd parties.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby Mihir.D » 02 May 2010 18:27

Cant see RuAF buying 250( or even 150) Su-30s nor this "game changer" being offered to too many 3rd parties.


Guess, atleast a part of that would be IAF order, 40 already ordered right ? We might also have this SU-30MKI Brahmos ordered in batches as usual.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby sum » 02 May 2010 18:34

So, 40 new ones ordered were Brahmos equipped ones? Is that confirmed?

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby RamaY » 02 May 2010 21:09

Love to see 40-100 Su-30MKIs with 3 Brahmos each in the next 4-5 years. That would be helpful for Tibet Cause.

Combining with Vivek-Ahuja's scenarios, India need to make at least 5-10 waves of these Brahmastras to saturate Tibet Plateau of Chinese influence :wink:

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby rohitvats » 02 May 2010 23:00

David Siegel wrote:
No. I guess here the requirement is bit different. They are looking for missile with Active/Passive seeker, where as AKASH is purely Radar guided (that was the requirement anyways), without any seeker. I guess they can go ahead with Spyder SAM system as preferred by IAF in that class of SAM (Missile with Seeker). However IAF is also inducting Akash SAM in large number. So it is like having a variety of SAM with different capabilities though Kill radius may be more or less same.

However there were reports that even IA was considering purchases of AKASH SAM. So the current news of RFP for missile with seeker may not conflict with requirement of AKSAH.
http://www.business-standard.com/india/news/army-warmsto-akash-missile/375634/
http://knol.google.com/k/vijainder-k-thakur/akash-missile/yo54fmdhy2mq/57#view


To understand the purchase, we need to see the current employment of AD assets. Akash will replace the Kvadrat or SA-6 in the IA service. The new RFI is for system which will replace the OSA-AK/Sa-8 - this was originally supposed to be replaced by the Trishul syste. OSA-AK has been replaced by Tor-MX in Russian service while SA-6 has been replaced by SA-11.We're trying the same thing here.....

So, the seeker thing is not exactly the criterion here....

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby jamwal » 02 May 2010 23:39

What's the minimum altitude needed by Sukhoi to launch Brahmos ?

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby sivabala » 07 May 2010 09:14

I have a question to informed folks. In wiki page on NAG says it was exported to 3 foreign countries(namely Tanzania Botwana Morocco). Why would these countries buy such an expensive 3G messile? or these missile transactions were just false flag operation by powers who have formidable tanks.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby neeraj » 07 May 2010 12:26

sivabala wrote:I have a question to informed folks. In wiki page on NAG says it was exported to 3 foreign countries(namely Tanzania Botwana Morocco). Why would these countries buy such an expensive 3G messile? or these missile transactions were just false flag operation by powers who have formidable tanks.


The wiki article is incorrect. The Nag is not yet inducted in IA so there is no question of exporting it.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby Brahmananda » 08 May 2010 17:12

http://www.bharat-rakshak.com/NEWS/news ... wsid=12863

Nirbhay on Su-30mki, thats awesome news. will be the deadliest and longest range cruise missile deployable from a fighter aircraft. :rotfl:

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby Kersi D » 08 May 2010 17:52

[quote="Yogesh" Also how the integration cost being shared;modification in the a/c and missile itself (as for my gullible memory goes it was request from our side only, no ?) :-? :-?[/quote]

Russia 0.00%
India 100.00%
China 0.00%

K

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby sathyaC » 09 May 2010 09:20

does any one have any info on the r74 A to A missile tried to goole it but did not find much on it

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby Sid » 09 May 2010 09:42

[quote="sathyaC"]does any one have any info on the r74 A to A missile tried to goole it but did not find much on it[/quote

I think you are searching for K-74, further development model of R-73.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby Singha » 09 May 2010 09:52

there were said to be two models of K-74. a first cut would be low hanging fruit and then a totally more radical redesign to perhaps match or better the python5 types.

this was way back in 1997 - funding 0% must have stillborn these plans.
http://www.flightglobal.com/articles/19 ... siles.html

the K-74 specs above would place it far behind python and aim9x. note ir seeker not iir seeker.

more details here http://www.ausairpower.net/APA-Rus-BVR-AAM.html

---found on a website sept11,2006---
To replace the current R-73/K-74/K-74M (ie. "AA-11 ARCHER") series, the Russians are developing what is known now only as "Izdeliye 760". It's based off of the K-74M missile, and is intended to match the performance of the MBDA ASRAAM and the Raytheon AIM-9X. It will have an improved IR seeker, inertial control system, datalink receiver for target updates and an advanced rocket motor with a longer burn time. It's cross-section will be 320x320mm, to allow for internal carriage in the I-21 fighter (aka PAK FA).

To maximise the weapon's coverage, it can be fired in lock-on-after-launch (LOAL) mode, starting under inertial control before achieving in-flight lock-on. It will be able to engage targets up to 160deg from the aircraft's heading.

According to a Vympel representative, Izdeliye 760 is about to begin flight tests. Development is due to be completed in 2010.


After Izdeliye 760, the follow on K-MD (Izdeliye 300) is intended to outperform ASRAAM and AIM-9X. It'll be an all-new missile- its guidance system will be based on a new IR seeker incorporating a focal-plane array. This will have more than twice the lock-on range of the Izdeliye 760 seeker, a high resistance to countermeasures and a target-recognition capability.

The new missile will have an improved aerodynamic configuration of minimal drag, and will be powered by a dual-mode solid-rocket engine with a high specific impulse and a total burn time of about 100 seconds. The R-73 used a system of four moving thrust-vector control vanes mounted around the motor nozzle. For the K-MD, Vympel has developed what it described as 'a three-channel gas-dynamic control unit (gas control vanes)'. An adaptive warhead will provide optimised lethal effects to suit the final interception conditions.

Development of the K-MD is expected to end in 2013, giving the PAK FA a 'dogfight' weapon of much-increased range, all-round coverage and the ability to engage aircraft or missile targets.

To provide the aircraft with a medium-range and long-range armament, new missiles will be developed based on the current R-77 and R-37 respectively. As with the short-range weapon, this will be an evolutionary process, starting with improved variants and moving towards what will eventually become an all-new missile.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby Singha » 09 May 2010 10:01

so my guess would be:
- work on K74 started in late 90s in reality
- but funding and other issues delayed it
- some protoype may exist but it was never productionized
- its specs place it behind western aams
- so its practically useless as a export weapon vs python5 to india

for pakfa they need something much better
- must have started work on K-MD
- ETA probably with Pak-FA IOC (and maybe Su35) around 2015-17.

for India:
- time to retire Matra550 on jaguar and mirage -> change to python5
- get python5 into Mig27 if possible - though lack of pylons is an issue
- Tejas and all our MKI should get python5
- MRCA should depending on vendor get python5 capability + asraam/aim9x
- Pakfa-mki when it comes will work with K-MD
- induct python5 and retire the blocks of R73 as their shelf life expires.
- get HMS into all planes (thales top panda or whatever)

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby Paul » 10 May 2010 01:36

Nirbhay on SU30 (50 - 80 max) will have limited impact on the changing the course of war in the battlefield.

We need to deply these in quantitiy. First and foresmost objective should be get as many batteries of Nirbhays deployed in NE to take out C4SIR centers in Northern Tibet, Qinghai and Yunnan provinces.

Brahmos will be able to take on corps HQs and airfields in Tibet and Eastern Turkestan.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby prabhug » 10 May 2010 10:53

Any body have the exact specs of Nirbhay and timelines. nirbhay in Ramba is lot of gas than substance.Alert !!!!!!!!!!!!Conspiracy theory "Does Somebody want Chinkis to react to this idea "

Cheers
Prabhug

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby koti » 10 May 2010 11:16

Paul wrote:Nirbhay on SU30 (50 - 80 max) will have limited impact on the changing the course of war in the battlefield.

We need to deply these in quantitiy. First and foresmost objective should be get as many batteries of Nirbhays deployed in NE to take out C4SIR centers in Northern Tibet, Qinghai and Yunnan provinces.

Brahmos will be able to take on corps HQs and airfields in Tibet and Eastern Turkestan.


To do this the cost of Nirbhay has to be dramatically brought down. The Chinese already have enough cruise missiles to cripple the Indian formations in the NE. The only way to deal with this is to improve the quality and accuracy of Nirbhay so as to do the same damage using less resources.

Can any one throw light on the estimated cost of Nirbhay in comparision with Brahmos, Babur and other Chinese Cruise missiles?

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby ramana » 11 May 2010 22:02

One has to look at the whole gamut of strategic thinking that went into the development of cruise missiles in the nuclear delivery system. Conventional payloads were an after thought for precision attack and not the primary role. And precision attack was to limit collateral damage in Third World actions to preserve legitimacy for use of force.

So Nirbhay is not just a precision conventional weapon. It changes the strategic weapons paradigm. TSP is not going to arm the Babur with conventional payloads. Neither should India. That will be self limiting.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby Brahmananda » 11 May 2010 22:53

Can any one throw light on the estimated cost of Nirbhay in comparision with Brahmos, Babur and other Chinese Cruise missiles?


Brahmos is around $ 2million +, i think Birbhay will be cheaper between $500k to $1 million and i think will be more accurate than babur and chinese stuff. I also think they'll order many more of the Nirbhay than the brahmos, hopefully around 5000 Nirbhay would be nice. its suppossed to be able to carry 24 types of warheads lets see:

Nuke, chemical, bio, fragmentation, air burst, HE, cluster, Thermite, Thermobaric, penetration, anti ship, Kinetic warhead with supersonic booster like the Klub, continuos rod. nearly not near 24, any more types of warhead guys?

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby shukla » 12 May 2010 19:25

X-post

The state-owned Defence Research and Development Organisation (DRDO) will be applying the technology developed by Dr. Padhi in a more critical manner. According to the DRDO director-general VK Saraswat, field trials will be carried out to create a defence shield over Indian airspace which can intercept and destroy any incoming ballistic missile using Dr Padhi’s technology. In June this year, a flight test of the anti-missile system will be conducted to build the ballistic missile defence (BMD) shield against any incoming medium or long range missiles. The new BMD will be 30 per cent more pro-efficient than the ones used by the US and it will help India be in the same league as Israel and Russia.

According to Dr. Padhi, the DRDO had evinced interest in his technology and have been interested in the different algorithms used for control and guidance of missiles and aircraft. One of the applications of this technology is in increasing the range of air-to-air missile. DRDO officials said that this technology is helping to almost double the range of the missile. With regards to India’s long-range missile, Agni III, the new technology can boost it to hit the target accurately, even if it deviates from its path. The Agni III missile is currently capable of hitting targets 3,500 kilometres away. Another great aspect of Dr. Padhi’s technology is that it also helps to control the missiles run by solid motors during the flight which was earlier impossible.


http://indiadefenceonline.com/1881/indi ... echnology/

Hats off Dr Padhi.... Salute India's talent!

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby shukla » 12 May 2010 20:23

First BrahMos Subsystems Delivery Set
BATL Executive Director N.R. Vishnu Kartha tells Aviation Week during a site visit that the facility is making nine metallic subsystems for the missile. “We have an order for 20 sets. The first set is ready and BATL hopes to complete [the] remaining [sets] within a year,” Vishnu Kartha said. “Further sets will be ordered after qualification tests.”

BATL has also taken up development of Booster I &amp; II of the BrahMos. “Booster I &amp; II have a lot of complex machining, metal forming and welding. We are planning to develop the flow-forming technology for manufacturing the tubes required for these boosters,” Vishnu Kartha said.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby nash » 13 May 2010 18:09

Do u guies any information about AKASH-II

:)

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby Austin » 13 May 2010 21:08

nash wrote:Do u guies any information about AKASH-II :)


Dr APJ Kalam in 1998 interview to JDW stated that by adding booster and increasing ramjet burn time it was possible to double the range of Akash which is to ~ 50 km and that it was on drawing board.

I do not see things changing perhaps Akash will go active with different seeker ( ARH/IIR )

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby PratikDas » 13 May 2010 21:27

ramana wrote:...
So Nirbhay is not just a precision conventional weapon. It changes the strategic weapons paradigm. TSP is not going to arm the Babur with conventional payloads. Neither should India. That will be self limiting.

There are unconfirmed reports that the payload capability is 130 kg. Doesn't leave room for much.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby Singha » 13 May 2010 21:34

with the precision of modern satellite guided cruise missiles and we having both Shourya and Agni1 to cover that range, maybe it makes sense for
India to develop Nirbhay as a conventional deep strike weapon for heavily defended targets considered too risky for a/c to target. stuff like airbases,
radar sites and C3I bunkers in initial few days of any war.

a low yield device has very limited use for a small-tier nuclear power like us - all weapons we build should be strategic because no point
trolling around with tactical weapons in a second strike policy (per our no-first-use doctrine).

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby Austin » 13 May 2010 21:50

PratikDas wrote:
ramana wrote:...
So Nirbhay is not just a precision conventional weapon. It changes the strategic weapons paradigm. TSP is not going to arm the Babur with conventional payloads. Neither should India. That will be self limiting.

There are unconfirmed reports that the payload capability is 130 kg. Doesn't leave room for much.


From what I have read the idea is to develop a 1 T cruise missile with ~ 1000 km range and 500 kg payload.

Well even the smaller Uran carries 130 kg warhead.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby SSridhar » 14 May 2010 07:19


Craig Alpert
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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby Craig Alpert » 14 May 2010 08:14

Airborne BrahMos Launcher Prototype Finished
ndia’s BrahMos Aerospace Thiruvananthapuram Ltd (BATL) is ready with the first prototype of an indigenous airborne launcher developed for the BrahMos supersonic cruise missile.

The air-launched version of the missile will be fitted to the Su-30 MKI aircraft.

BATL Executive Director N.R. Vishnu Kartha tells AVIATION WEEK, “This is the first time a mobile launcher for [the] BrahMos missile is being manufactured. We are ready with the first prototype.”

The basic design of the launcher was conceived by BrahMos engineers from Hyderabad and accepted by the Sukhoi Design Bureau. The main body of the launcher is made from high-strength aluminum. All the materials, processes and tests involved in making the launcher need to undergo stringent quality checks by the Director General of Aeronautical Quality Assurance at various stages.

The launcher must undergo one more final test before it is fitted onto the Su-30 MKI for flight trials. BATL has an initial order of 6.4 crore ($1.4 million) to deliver a total of five such launchers. “The launcher’s final test will be done at Hyderabad, which is the missile integration center. The launcher is a testimony to BATL’s technical know-how in delivering such complex equipment,” Vishnu Kartha says.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby Singha » 14 May 2010 08:57

for a turbofan or turbojet engine used in cruise missile, is it possible to rig it such that 5km away from target as it prepares to hit either horizontally or in a sharp dive, the last remaining liquid fuel is pumped at a higher rate to increase the speed from say a economical 700kmph to 900kmp for better penetration?
or are these 'simple' engines not rugged enough to withstand changes in fuel flow....?

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby Austin » 14 May 2010 09:41

Singha wrote:for a turbofan or turbojet engine used in cruise missile, is it possible to rig it such that 5km away from target as it prepares to hit either horizontally or in a sharp dive, the last remaining liquid fuel is pumped at a higher rate to increase the speed from say a economical 700kmph to 900kmp for better penetration?
or are these 'simple' engines not rugged enough to withstand changes in fuel flow....?


Yes you can throttle the engine within its designed limit , so say 0.7 M is most efficient while cruising for fuel economy ratio , while for the final lap of say 10 km to target you can increase the rpms to add in more speed.

I do not know if any of the CM do such things , unless you can go from 0.7M to 2 M for last few km it probably is not tactically useful , that is what though Klub does with its dart.


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