Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

vipins · Post by **vipins** » 02 Nov 2009 13:09

Rahul M wrote:
I don't think this old report was posted here.
http://merachandigarh.in/chandigarh-new ... ight-.html
the article is full of typos and inaccuracies. anyone knows more about this project ?
Defence Research and Development Organisation develops lightweight rocket launcher for Indian Army
06 January, 2009 11:15:00

Chandigarh (Mera Chandigarh):- The research arm of Indian army, Defence Research and Development Organisation (DRDO) has developed an indigenous lightweight rocket launcher for Indian army
It is to mention that currently Indian Infantry is using 14 kg Carl Gustav Mark-II launcher which is much heavier than DRDO developed rocket launcher.
......................
At presently, British SAS, US Navy Seals and the US Army Rangers and the Indian National Security Guards are using it but soon Indian army will be out of this list because it will used DRDO developed light weight 7 kg rocket launcher not 84-mm Carl Gustav rocket launcher of weight 14 kg.

Found this 2001 mod report (topic 8.30)
It mentions reduction of weight from 16.5 kg to 10.5 kg.

Also this 2009 article mentions

The indigenous rocket launcher, developed by DRDO’s Armament Research and Development Establishment is said to be about 50 per cent lighter than the 14 kg Carl Gustav Mark-II launcher presently in service with the Infantry.

The barrel of the weapon has been designed and developed using hybrid-composite technology, used for the first time in the country. The barrel, which is this weapon’s, largest and prime component is made from carbon-epoxy lined with steel. The lighter weapon weight results in reduced fatigue, enhanced mobility and ammunition carrying capacity, thereby improving combat efficiency.

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 02 Nov 2009 18:09

hypersonic reusable missile system sounds good, but i am thinking why waste that much fuel to return back to reload.

the purpose must be entirely different.. may be tech demonstrator for space vehicle, rather.

btw, NASA is returning back to capsule mode to moon and beyond.. surprising indeed since their tiles kept crashing their reusable vehicles. Russians must have a good laugh, a little cold though.

but, it should point to the fact, that how much use we can put this technology ahead!?

Rahul M · Post by **Rahul M** » 02 Nov 2009 18:15

thanks a lot vipin !!

so this means a clone of the carl gustav with the metal parts replaced by composite ones bringing down weight considerably. sounds like a very good idea !

sumshyam · Post by **sumshyam** » 02 Nov 2009 18:24

SaiK wrote:hypersonic reusable missile system sounds good, but i am thinking why waste that much fuel to return back to reload.

I think if a cannister carries multiple missiles or warhead (let)....it will just be a drone fling at hypersonic speeds...and also returning drone may return with some information....I am just willing to say that it will do all that a drone can...!!!

with that in mind...it will be good to have the cannister back...!!!

juvva · Post by **juvva** » 02 Nov 2009 20:49

sumshyam wrote:
SaiK wrote:hypersonic reusable missile system sounds good, but i am thinking why waste that much fuel to return back to reload.
I think if a cannister carries multiple missiles or warhead (let)....it will just be a drone fling at hypersonic speeds...and also returning drone may return with some information....I am just willing to say that it will do all that a drone can...!!!

with that in mind...it will be good to have the cannister back...!!!

Sounds too iffy to me, may be better to use the kinetic energy to smack something really hard deep in enemy territory instead.

sanjaychoudhry · Post by **sanjaychoudhry** » 02 Nov 2009 20:52

IISc, defence agencies work on recoverable hypersonic missiles
http://economictimes.indiatimes.com/ET- ... 187672.cms

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 02 Nov 2009 21:02

recoverable means different and not necessarily reusable. ... and an ICBM!.. why recover?

its more than iffy.

may return with some information

we can get it from hi-speed networks, dedicated satellites, radars and videos, etc.

KrishG · Post by **KrishG** » 02 Nov 2009 23:06

SaiK wrote:hypersonic reusable missile system sounds good, but i am thinking why waste that much fuel to return back to reload.

the purpose must be entirely different.. may be tech demonstrator for space vehicle, rather.

btw, NASA is returning back to capsule mode to moon and beyond.. surprising indeed since their tiles kept crashing their reusable vehicles. Russians must have a good laugh, a little cold though.

but, it should point to the fact, that how much use we can put this technology ahead!?

Reusable doesn't necessarily mean returnable systems. We in the Rocketry field use the term reusable when we can recover a burnt-out stage and restack or reload it. Maybe 'Reusable' hypersonic missile refers to something whose solid booster stage may be recovered and reused. That's the max limit I can think for a "reusable missile" as anything more will probably make it something similar to a drone.

Raveen · Post by **Raveen** » 02 Nov 2009 23:13

SaiK wrote: btw, NASA is returning back to capsule mode to moon and beyond.. surprising indeed since their tiles kept crashing their reusable vehicles. Russians must have a good laugh, a little cold though.

Saik, considering the Russians built a shuttle clone with tiles when they could least afford it I am sure the Americans already

Especially considering it was never really used for anything productive.

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 02 Nov 2009 23:19

me thinking, other than the boost phase, the mid-course could be easily returned since, the "G" can start at any re-entry point.. could deliver the mission, rotate around for a while and collect intel, then return if necessary.. but do we need such sophistications?

Craig Alpert · Post by **Craig Alpert** » 03 Nov 2009 01:38

Craig Alpert wrote:ASTRA & AIM120
Thanks Rahul for the ifileit link!

http://ifile.it/e5gmnqb/Astra.doc
I don't know how our good fellow Gagan upload the JPEG image, as i've been trying to convert this doc to jpeg, but for somereason, it won't convert and neither would it let me upload.
Hopefully if it's not too much work and if may ask, Gagan could you please delete the current jpeg img and replace it with the one associated in this file. (this one contains corrections highlighted by Rahul and I have added MICA as Ramana suggested.
Hate to be a pain. Thanks all again very much.

Gagan - Did you save the .doc as a pdf and then save it as a jpeg and uploaded the file?

Ankit Desai · Post by **Ankit Desai** » 04 Nov 2009 23:52

Agni-II test deferred

Sources at the integrated test range (ITR) in Chandipur here on Wednesday said the test, to be undertaken by the army with logistic support from the DRDO, has been postponed owing to "some technical snags in the pneumatic system of the missile".

Ankit

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 05 Nov 2009 01:08

And visits by high profile personages. Might as well keep it in reserve if needed.

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 05 Nov 2009 09:50

Thats always been the case before US visit for all PM, some hardware issue crops up

Vivs · Post by **Vivs** » 05 Nov 2009 21:06

Astra trials are underway.....

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/city ... 198318.cms

tejas · Post by **tejas** » 05 Nov 2009 22:55

What missile is this supposedly indigenous seeker for, AAD? http://i34.tinypic.com/289f09w.jpg

(Cross posting from misc. pics thread)

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 06 Nov 2009 08:01

tejas wrote:What missile is this supposedly indigenous seeker for, AAD? http://i34.tinypic.com/289f09w.jpg

(Cross posting from misc. pics thread)

PAD seeker a joint development between DRDO and Russia

tejas · Post by **tejas** » 06 Nov 2009 08:23

Thanks Austin garu. Any idea how much DRDO really picked up from this joint project? The Russians seemed to have not parted with much on ramjet tech. wrt Brahmos.

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 06 Nov 2009 08:48

tejas wrote:Thanks Austin garu. Any idea how much DRDO really picked up from this joint project? The Russians seemed to have not parted with much on ramjet tech. wrt Brahmos.

Brahmos is a joint/co-development with each party bringing in its expertise into the project and commercially too there was sharing involved.

Project AD was a DRDO project to develop BMD system , instead of reinventing the wheel , DRDO just bought the technology of the shelf where ever possible and improvised upon it , so they went for Israel , French,Indian and Russian systems and just developed and tailored it further to our needs. That was the smart thing to do and hence DRDO managed to achieve this feat is less than a decades time.

tejas · Post by **tejas** » 06 Nov 2009 09:28

No arguments here. BMD is one area where DRDO really comes out smelling like a rose. I for one don't care how DRDO gets the technology as long as it is truly indigenously available. Acquisition of French and Israeli radars and their indigenous improvement/production for the BMD program being a case in point.

Seeker tech. is closely guarded and is obviously an absolute must for India's tactical missile programs to be truly independent. We must obtain this tech. by any means possible.

Baldev · Post by **Baldev** » 06 Nov 2009 20:59

tejas wrote:What missile is this supposedly indigenous seeker for, AAD? http://i34.tinypic.com/289f09w.jpg

(Cross posting from misc. pics thread)

there was a picture of prithvi carrying this seeker

but seeker looks shorter in lenght

Ankit Desai · Post by **Ankit Desai** » 07 Nov 2009 01:41

Army warms up to Akash missile

The IAF’s order last year for two Akash squadrons — dismissed by sceptics as a face-saving burial for the Akash programme — has just been doubled with a fresh IAF order for 16 more launchers that will be stationed in northeast India. And now, Business Standard has accessed even better news for the Akash programme: the Indian Army is considering ordering several Akash squadrons for its ground forces.

Ankit

sumshyam · Post by **sumshyam** » 07 Nov 2009 02:36

Ankit Desai wrote:Army warms up to Akash missile
Ankit

It says ....

the Trishul short-range anti-aircraft missile was abandoned unceremoniously.

Should I be convinced with the statement...???

Prem Kumar · Post by **Prem Kumar** » 07 Nov 2009 03:51

Ankit Desai wrote:Army warms up to Akash missile

Best news of the day, especially since there was no IED Mubarak in TSP!!

Baldev · Post by **Baldev** » 07 Nov 2009 04:16

Prem Kumar wrote:
Ankit Desai wrote:Army warms up to Akash missile
Best news of the day, especially since there was no IED Mubarak in TSP!!

AKAASH can easily be integrated in the SAM launcher of naval ships without any modifications.

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 07 Nov 2009 08:40

Akash range can be increased too.. slowly matching up to chasing and killing chinese su30s and paki f16s flying at >50km ceil.. with next gen going scramjet with ++ range. A 80km operational range would be fantastic.

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 07 Nov 2009 09:03

This is really good news for Akash , hope this provides the necessary impetus to develop a longer range Akash mk2 and the IAF takes interest in the program.

vavinash · Post by **vavinash** » 07 Nov 2009 09:38

Where would akash Mk-2 fit in with MR-SAM? But I like the Idea of tank columns being embedded with T-72 based Akash.

vina · Post by **vina** » 07 Nov 2009 14:20

Hmm. Army comes crawling back to DRDO for Akash SAMS on tank chassis aye ?. It looks like the Natashas have been bitch slapped . What with the Arjun and now Akash and soon Nag to be fielded.

Me thinks that the Kvadrat upgrade has been a dismal failure and the Russian Natashas have nothing comparable to offer and you cant go to the Frech and Isrealis for a tank based system, because they essentially dont have one. So basically the Army shot itself in the foot on that. There is no way they could have procured a western system without watering down specs and based on which they were rejecting the Akash for a long time. And now that the Akash team has come up with the goods, there is no way they could go back to watering down specs!. Nice way to have the nuts caught in the vice aye ?.

I am willing to bet that the Army will come back with more orders for the Arjun as well once the 124 have been integrated and proven.Once an internal constitunecy has been built to support the Arjun , you cant reject it any more on the "logistics" argument and once Arjun starts blowing away the T-90 tin cans in exercises and dissimilar engagements in the training grounds, the Natashas will get bitch slapped there as well..

All in all, nice.

NRao · Post by **NRao** » 07 Nov 2009 14:37

SaiK wrote:Akash range can be increased too.. slowly matching up to chasing and killing chinese su30s and paki f16s flying at >50km ceil.. with next gen going scramjet with ++ range. A 80km operational range would be fantastic.

Too late. Done. 2008 article:

IISC develops technology for increasing range of missiles

Indigenous technology to increase range of Indian missiles by a third new

May, 2008:

Bangalore: Very soon Indian missiles will fly lighter and longer thanks to an innovative technology developed by the prestigious Indian Institute of Science (IISc) here. Scientists have confirmed that a layer of chromium coating, applied to the nose of a missile, has the potential of increasing its range by atleast a third.

According to reports, scientists at the Department of Aerospace Engineering and Department of Inorganic and Physical Chemistry of the IISc have successfully demonstrated the potential of the coating to increase the range of a missile by atleast 30 per cent without adding fuel.

According to the project's lead scientist, Professor KPJ Reddy, Department of Aerospace Engineering, the chromium coating reduces the aerodynamic drag encountered by a missile or a space vehicle by up to 47 per cent.

''As the chromium coating evaporates with the enormous frictional heat generated during hypersonic flight, it reacts with the oxygen atoms present in the atmosphere and produces chromium oxide,''Reddy said. ''This reaction is exothermic, that is producing more heat, thereby decreasing the density of the air around the nose of the missile. As the pressure reduces, so does the drag force, which in turn enables the missile to increase its range.''

The nose of a missile, conventionally blunted in order to reduce heating, increases the drag. This considerably reduces the range. ''Large amounts of fuel are needed to compensate for the drag and to give the vehicle thrust,'' said Reddy. ''With this technology, we increase the range without using additional fuel.''

The scientist confirmed that the technology would be used not only for application on missiles, but also on space vehicles. He said that a patent application for the technology, which was invented six months ago, had already been accepted.

Kailash · Post by **Kailash** » 07 Nov 2009 14:52

^^^ Insufficient..

Those chrome coatings work at temperatures created on ballistic missiles upon rentry. There is no specific mention of the technology been introduced or tested on any of our missiles, let alone akash.

But overall positive signs from Army. That is good for DRDO and indigenous industry

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 07 Nov 2009 18:47

but the chrome? tech should improve on the drag at greater than escape velocity, right?

its only a suggestive technology aspect for lean mean ones in the future. lets hope they get this into production..

Rahul M · Post by **Rahul M** » 07 Nov 2009 18:50

escape velocity ?

sumshyam · Post by **sumshyam** » 07 Nov 2009 19:51

SaiK wrote:but the chrome? tech should improve on the drag at greater than escape velocity, right?

I read the paper published by IISc....and it says...

Reduction in aerodynamic drag for a large angle blunt cone flying at hypersonic Mach number by heat addition into the shock layer is demonstrated in HST2 hypersonic shock tunnel. The heat addition is achieved by the exothermic reaction of chromium atoms ablated from the stagnation region of the chromium coated blunt cone with the atomic oxygen behind the shock wave. The measurements show about 47% reduction in the drag coefficient for a 60° apex angle blunt cone in a Mach 8 flow of 3.4 MJ/kg specific enthalpy. The reduction in drag is measured using the accelerometer based force balance system and the heat addition into the shock layer is identified by the surface mounted thin film heat flux gauges and the corresponding movement of the shock wave is visualized by schlieren pictures.

there is no talk of escape velocity...!!!

perhaps this will be used in Hypersonic Technology Demonstrator Vehicle (HSTDV).

Days have passed i had also read another paper saying 20%~65% drag reduction due to charge deposition for reentry vehicles. It says....

This paper deals with the effect of electrical energy deposition on the wave drag experienced by a 120° apex angle blunt cone flying at Mach 5.75. The experiments are conducted in the Indian Institute of Science (IISc) hypersonic shock tunnel HST-2. The electrical energy is deposited along the stagnation streamline of the model using a spark discharge system powered by a DC power supply. Drag is measured using a single component accelerometer balance mounted inside the blunt cone model. Illustrative numerical simulations are also carried out by solving the 3-D compressible Navier-Stokes equations, for complimenting the experiments. Results from the parametric numerical studies indicate a substantial reduction in drag (20%~65%) as a result of electrical energy deposition

jamwal · Post by **jamwal** » 07 Nov 2009 19:59

Rahul M wrote:escape velocity ?

Anti-satellite weapons

Rahul M · Post by **Rahul M** » 07 Nov 2009 20:12

jamwal wrote:
Rahul M wrote:escape velocity ?
Anti-satellite weapons

do you think missiles need to achieve the theoretical {escape} velocity to do that ?

sumshyam · Post by **sumshyam** » 07 Nov 2009 20:30

Rahul M wrote: do you think missiles need to achieve the theoretical {escape} velocity to do that ?

what other options can one have...?

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 07 Nov 2009 20:37

my context was drag.. and sorry that was question.

jamwal · Post by **jamwal** » 07 Nov 2009 20:46

what about fuel ?

Rahul M · Post by **Rahul M** » 07 Nov 2009 21:37

sumshyam wrote:
Rahul M wrote: do you think missiles need to achieve the theoretical {escape} velocity to do that ?
what other options can one have...?

the theoretical {escape} velocity is a measure of the energy required to escape the earth's pull.
(from K=1/2 mv^2)
for a rocket, it does NOT mean that you need to reach that velocity in order to escape earth. you just need to impart energy equivalent to that velocity in course of your motion. that can be done in more than one step, as is done in multi-stage rockets. take the CY-1 for example, did it reach 11.2 m/s anytime during its flight, the answer is no.

added later :
oops, I wrote orbital when I meant escape ! sorry for the confusion !