Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

PratikDas · Post by **PratikDas** » 12 Mar 2010 01:28

a_kumar wrote:Artist's impression of MIRV for Agni-V : Livefist

With no credit given to the source or the artist! Of course, there's no description of what those warheads contain either.

Not sure why the article even exists, to be honest.

putnanja · Post by **putnanja** » 12 Mar 2010 03:50

Agni-V may be test-fired next year

MYSORE: Agni-V, India's version of Inter-Continental Ballistic Missile (ICBM) with a range of more than 5,000 km, will be test-fired by early 2011, according to W. Selvamurthy, Chief Controller, R and D (Life Sciences), Defence Research and Development Organisation (DRDO).
...
...
Dr. Selvamurthy said the DRDO scientists were working on Agni-V which was a three-stage solid fuelled missile and it would have a payload of one to 1.5 tonne and could carry conventional nuclear warhead. “It will address our immediate threat perception and since India has declared and adopted a no-first strike policy, Agni-V will empower the country with the second strike capability,” Dr. Selvamurthy said.

He described Agni as an important missile delivery system. Agni V was a surface-to-surface missile and came very close to qualify as an ICBM. Commenting on Agni-III which was test-fired successfully thrice, Dr. Selvamurthy said it had met all parameters and the armed forces would decide on the actual induction programme.
...
...

dinesha · Post by **dinesha** » 13 Mar 2010 13:41

DRDO Newsletter (March 2010)
http://www.drdo.com/pub/nl/2010/mar10.pdf
Missile related Ariticles:
Agni-III Missile Successfully Launched
Solid Rocket Propellants – Challenges Ahead
New Facilities : Control and Guidance Centre

The missile is equipped with a state-of-the-art computer system,
navigated by an advanced navigation system and guided by an
innovative guidance scheme. The navigation system used for guidance
is first of its kind.

what system and scheme, obfuscation

Hari Seldon · Post by **Hari Seldon** » 14 Mar 2010 19:28

I know a tad novicey but could anyone kindly let on as to why there's no Agni-IV in the series? Just wondering. TIA.

ankit-s · Post by **ankit-s** » 14 Mar 2010 20:01

Hari Seldon wrote:I know a tad novicey but could anyone kindly let on as to why there's no Agni-IV in the series? Just wondering. TIA.

There will not be an Agni-IV missile, with DRDO leapfrogging from intermediate range Agni-III to a standard ICBM possibly.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Agni_(missile)

ankit-s · Post by **ankit-s** » 15 Mar 2010 01:50

Indian Army Scouts For Medium Range Loitering Missile

The Indian Army has said it is interested in procuring unspecified numbers of a new medium range Loitering Missile (LM) system, and has sent out Requests for Information to firms in Israel (IAI Malat), France (MBDA) and the US (Raytheon). A glance through the RFI shows the Army is interested in a system with capabilities that include top-attack and the ability to abort an attack after target lock (and re-designate). The Army wants a system where the launcher can be mounted on a Tatra truck. (Shiv Aroor)

Meet the Loitering Attack Missile (LAM) – or perhaps that should be, hope you never meet it. The LAM is an integral part of the Army's Future Combat Systems and when it goes into service, the 60-inch, 120-pound missile will make life very unpredictable for enemies of the United States. The LAM will be an expendable, loitering hunter-killer, equipped with laser radar seeker and autonomous target recognition – among several very high tech features of the missile is its micro turbojet engine capable of loitering 30 minutes at ranges of 70 kilometres. In addition to its lethal capabilities, the LAM will provide commanders with additional target location and identification capabilities and has two-way data links for retasking in flight and down-linking battlefield images. In summary, the LAM loiters for 30 minutes, identifying battlefield targets and towards the end of its 30 minute mission, or when a priority target appears, it can break off its search and attack the target or any other target under the direction of its commanders.

The LAM is developing nicely, and its propulsion system uses a remarkable engine from Technical Directions Inc. (TDI) of Ortonville, Michigan. The TDI micro turbojet engine has unique design features that make it compact, low-cost and easy to assemble. The engine was designed to use automotive turbocharger parts for the compressor and turbine wheels, with fuel used to lubricate and cool the bearings, eliminating the need for heavy lubricating oil. Altitude chamber and flight testing of the engine system confirmed its full operational capability. The 7-inch-diameter turbojet weighs 16 lbs and generates 100 lbs of thrust at 96,000 rpm.

"After an exhaustive and rigorous evaluation of all engine options available today, this was the only micro-turbojet engine on the market that demonstrated the ability to meet the NLOS-LS LAM performance requirements," said Dennis Stalmach, senior propulsion engineer at Lockheed Martin Missile and Fire Control. "And the cost of this engine is a fraction of the cost of other similar engines, which will result in a much lower cost product for our customer."

The TDI engines were designed to be assembled in 15 minutes, while the total time allocated for assembly, acceptance testing and packaging for shipment is under two hours, a significant discriminator in the ability to quickly and cost-effectively deliver engines on time and within budget.

"A small, reliable, low-cost turbojet engine was just the solution we needed for LAM," said Glenn Kuller, director - Netted Fires at Lockheed Martin Missiles and Fire Control. "All of the pieces are falling into place on the LAM program, and we're eager to get this highly effective weapon into the hands of our Soldiers as soon as possible."

The NLOS-LS LAM is a ground-launched, canistered tactical missile capable of increasing the warfighter's area of influence through hunter-killer flight operation, automatic target recognition, and can attack high value targets or report their target locations for attack by other weapons systems.

LAM's LADAR seeker provides three-dimensional analysis of potential targets. The LAM vehicle is 62 inches long and weighs 117 pounds, and can search a wide area or loiter for 30 minutes at a range of 70 kilometers. Two-way data links on LAM will provide for re-tasking while in-flight and down-linking of images.

http://defense-update.com/products/l/lam.htm

For over 20 years Delilah was officially defined as a 'Suppression of Enemy Air Defense (SEAD) powered decoy, but behind the curtain of secrecy, the Israel Air Force and IMI developed an innovative and unique weapon, that has served the IAF well in the past 20 years.

Originally, Delilah and Samson were developed for the IAF as part of an IMI family of SEAD decoys. However, while Samson continued to evolve as a decoy, that became a successful export product, Delilah disappeared from the 'radar screens' and kept a very low profile, becoming one of the air force's to secret programs. Through its transformation, the decoy evolved into a 'loitering precision attack weapon', combining the capabilities of an unmanned aerial vehicle and guided missile, capable of attacking enemy targets with unprecedented precision, agility and persistence.

The weapon's imaging sensors, smart mission-control and two-way datalink, enable 'human in the loop' control which, coupled with extended loitering capability, offering Delilah unprecedented combat capabilities. The weapon can be used to accurately and selectively attack a target at it's weakest points, for example, targeting a protected command center. In this mode, Delilah can be aimed to strike a specific part of the structure, or disable a vital communications link, without destroying the entire target. The weapon’s loitering capability proves an essential feature, when targets are hidden, concealed, or difficult to identify on the first pass, or if the conditions do not match prior assessment. Under such conditions Delilah is commanded to 'go around', wait for better conditions or strike the target from a different angle.

Since Delilah entered service with the IAF in the early 1990s, the weapon went through periodical evolution primarily through Block upgrades. The different missiles may look the same, but their capabilities have significantly been improved over the years. The first production models of the Delilah were integrated only in the Israeli F-4E. It was later introduced to the improved Phantom-2000, F-16C/D and, most lately to F-16I (Israeli Block 52) models. Delilah is currently being evaluated by a number of foreign navies, for use as land attack and anti-ship weapon, carried by naval helicopters.

"Delilah is our 'flagship of weapons', the most advanced ground attack weapon the IAF has" says Lt. Colonel Gil, head of ordnance branch in the Air Force's Weapon Systems Division. Primary use of this weapon is the hunting for targets, such as surface missiles and launchers, rocket launching sites, and surface-to-air weapons. Over the years we also introduced an anti-structure warhead to improve our effectiveness against fortified and urban targets." During the 2nd Lebanon War the air force used ordnance, representing almost every type of weapon in its arsenal. Delilah missiles were also used, hunting of Hezbollah supply trucks. The missiles tracked vehicles carrying rocket loads, crossing from Syria and destroyed them inside Lebanon." Lt. Col. G admits Delilah is an expensive weapon that cannot be commonly employed, but only selectively, when the target 'value' justifies the cost. The IAF continues to evolve the system, into future weapons that will continue and expand the Delilah concept and its capabilities. Furthermore, the IAF recently upgraded the weapon simulator of the Delilah, to reflect the latest capabilities of the weapon.

http://tinyurl.com/yhbvrvt

Craig Alpert · Post by **Craig Alpert** » 15 Mar 2010 07:21

Test Fire of Interceptor Missile Postponed

Test-fire of India's indigenously built Advanced Air Defence (AAD) interceptor missile, capable of destroying hostile in-coming ballistic missiles, was postponed today at the Integrated Test Range (ITR) at Wheeler Island off the Orissa's east coast.

The trial, scheduled for the day, was postponed due to some technical snag in the sub-system at the Wheeler Island and there was no problem with the missiles, official sources said.

The next date for the test, aimed at developing a full- fledged multi-layer Ballistic Missile Defence system, would be decided shortly after the problem was sorted out by experts, they said.

The test-fire was proposed to be carried out from two different launch sites of the ITR.

The target missile, a modified indigenously built Prithvi was to first lift off from a mobile launcher from the ITR's launch complex at Chandipur-on-sea, 15 km from here.

Minutes later the interceptor missile would have blasted off from the Wheeler's Island, about 70 km across the sea from Chandipur, to intercept it at an altitude of 15 to 20 km in mid-air over the waters.

Yet to get a formal name, the new hypersonic interceptor missile is only called 'AAD' and is meant to be used in 'endo-atmospheric conditions'.

The Balasore district administration has been asked by ITR officials to wind up the camps where about 400 families in nearby hamlets in Chandipur have been shifted as a safety measure for the test-fire, they said.

The seven-metre AAD interceptor is a single stage solid rocket propelled guided missile equipped with an inertial navigation system, a hi-tech computer and an electro-mechanical activator totally under command by the data uplinked from the ground based radar, the sources said.

The missile has its own mobile launcher, secure data link for interception, independent tracking and homing capabilities and its own radar.

The DRDO has already test fired the interceptor missile thrice on November 27, 2006, December 6, 2007 and March 6, 2009 from the Wheeler Island.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 15 Mar 2010 22:27

Book Review;Lightning Bolts: First MRVs by William Yengst.

The author traces the history of the evolution of MRVs and developments in US, India, China and Russia in that order. He thanks Arun_S for his Agni RV conceptual sketches and credits the now defunct BRF missile pages in his references.

A must buy to understand the technology and the dynamics underway on the subject.

Lightning Bolts
First Maneuvering Reentry Vehicles
by William Yengst
"History shows that demands of wartime military and political leaders have often motivated development of new and advanced technologies. The German desire to attack American cities with long-range variants of V-2 missiles during the latter years of World War II stimulated development of maneuvering reentry vehicle concepts. In the mid-1960s, these concepts were secretly refined and tested by the United States to provide accurate delivery of strategic nuclear warheads at intercontinental ranges and to assure their penetration of newly developed Soviet anti-ballistic missile defenses.

First Maneuvering Reentry Vehicles, by William C. Yengst, describes the initial feasibility programs to test three alternative designs for implementing hypersonic maneuvers and accurate guidance of long-range reentry vehicles. It identifies the political and military motivations, environmental challenges, design difficulties, innovative technology solutions, test failures, and spectacular successes. It also summarizes development of operational maneuvering reentry vehicles prepared for U.S. Air Force, Navy, and Army long-range missile systems during the 1980s. The technology has been adopted and further refined by foreign nations (India, China and Russia) in building their latest missile systems. Therefore, it is important to understand the capabilities and performance characteristics of future potential threats.

Written as a first-hand account of the technology's evolution, the book honors the dedicated engineers and scientists who worked to make these programs a success."

308 pages - $16.99 (paperback)

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 15 Mar 2010 22:51

India's missile shield test fails: officials

News report title is wrong.

The target went off-course and the ABM was not launched. So its a no-test.

rohitvats · Post by **rohitvats** » 16 Mar 2010 00:25

ankit-s wrote:Indian Army Scouts For Medium Range Loitering Missile<SNIP>........

Did the IA feel the need for such a system based on operational experience or is it a case of fist having a "dekko" at a capability (LAM) and then issued a RFP? Seems latter to me...

Gagan · Post by **Gagan** » 16 Mar 2010 00:52

ramana wrote:India's missile shield test fails: officials

News report title is wrong.

The target went off-course and the ABM was not launched. So its a no-test.

But check out the CNN newsticker right now, those bums are reporting "Indian anti missile test fails"
Tomorrow, in less than 24 hours when it succeeds, they won't bother reporting it.

Hope the High Commissioner can indulge in some verbal diarrhoea now, and tomorrow about 'uh protecting democracies from the evil of missiles fired by those forces who are hostile to our secular democratic way of life' yada yada.

Kersi D · Post by **Kersi D** » 16 Mar 2010 00:55

rohitvats wrote:
ankit-s wrote:Indian Army Scouts For Medium Range Loitering Missile<SNIP>........
Did the IA feel the need for such a system based on operational experience or is it a case of fist having a "dekko" at a capability (LAM) and then issued a RFP? Seems latter to me...

Does the IA not have this capacity with the Harpy ? Does it mean that IA does nit have the Harpy or this system is "superior" to the Harpy

K

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 16 Mar 2010 00:56

Never mind all that. Try to read that book "Lightning Bolts". It will give you a very deep understanding of Indian program. Kalamji broke the sixth country syndrome.

What is that you ask?

Well in every news report they DDM adds the appendix "India is the sixth country to do this or that...."

And you will better understand the Shourya missile.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 16 Mar 2010 00:58

Kersiji, Does India make diesel turbo chargers for trucks etc?

NRao · Post by **NRao** » 16 Mar 2010 00:59

The target went off-course and the ABM was not launched. So its a no-test.

The target was simulation a Pakistani missile. Right?

Kersi D · Post by **Kersi D** » 16 Mar 2010 01:00

ramana wrote:Kersiji, Does India make diesel turbo chargers for trucks etc?

Sorry Raman I do not undertsand your repy.

K

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 16 Mar 2010 03:27

Kersi D wrote:
ramana wrote:Kersiji, Does India make diesel turbo chargers for trucks etc?
Sorry Raman I do not undertsand your repy.

K

See this quote:

Meet the Loitering Attack Missile (LAM) – or perhaps that should be, hope you never meet it. The LAM is an integral part of the Army's Future Combat Systems and when it goes into service, the 60-inch, 120-pound missile will make life very unpredictable for enemies of the United States. The LAM will be an expendable, loitering hunter-killer, equipped with laser radar seeker and autonomous target recognition – among several very high tech features of the missile is its micro turbojet engine capable of loitering 30 minutes at ranges of 70 kilometres. In addition to its lethal capabilities, the LAM will provide commanders with additional target location and identification capabilities and has two-way data links for retasking in flight and down-linking battlefield images. In summary, the LAM loiters for 30 minutes, identifying battlefield targets and towards the end of its 30 minute mission, or when a priority target appears, it can break off its search and attack the target or any other target under the direction of its commanders.

The LAM is developing nicely, and its propulsion system uses a remarkable engine from Technical Directions Inc. (TDI) of Ortonville, Michigan. The TDI micro turbojet engine has unique design features that make it compact, low-cost and easy to assemble. The engine was designed to use automotive turbocharger parts for the compressor and turbine wheels, with fuel used to lubricate and cool the bearings, eliminating the need for heavy lubricating oil. Altitude chamber and flight testing of the engine system confirmed its full operational capability. The 7-inch-diameter turbojet weighs 16 lbs and generates 100 lbs of thrust at 96,000 rpm.

"After an exhaustive and rigorous evaluation of all engine options available today, this was the only micro-turbojet engine on the market that demonstrated the ability to meet the NLOS-LS LAM performance requirements," said Dennis Stalmach, senior propulsion engineer at Lockheed Martin Missile and Fire Control. "And the cost of this engine is a fraction of the cost of other similar engines, which will result in a much lower cost product for our customer."

The TDI engines were designed to be assembled in 15 minutes, while the total time allocated for assembly, acceptance testing and packaging for shipment is under two hours, a significant discriminator in the ability to quickly and cost-effectively deliver engines on time and within budget.

"A small, reliable, low-cost turbojet engine was just the solution we needed for LAM," said Glenn Kuller, director - Netted Fires at Lockheed Martin Missiles and Fire Control. "All of the pieces are falling into place on the LAM program, and we're eager to get this highly effective weapon into the hands of our Soldiers as soon as possible."

The NLOS-LS LAM is a ground-launched, canistered tactical missile capable of increasing the warfighter's area of influence through hunter-killer flight operation, automatic target recognition, and can attack high value targets or report their target locations for attack by other weapons systems.

LAM's LADAR seeker provides three-dimensional analysis of potential targets. The LAM vehicle is 62 inches long and weighs 117 pounds, and can search a wide area or loiter for 30 minutes at a range of 70 kilometers. Two-way data links on LAM will provide for re-tasking while in-flight and down-linking of images.

If India already makes such turbo-chargers for its diesel trucks it might be able to create micro turbo jets for such use.

Sumeet · Post by **Sumeet** » 16 Mar 2010 04:49

ramana wrote:India's missile shield test fails: officials

News report title is wrong.

The target went off-course and the ABM was not launched. So its a no-test.

In software developers lingo you can say its not a test for main success scenario but for an alternative success scenario.

Juggi G · Post by **Juggi G** » 16 Mar 2010 07:15

Self-Deleted

Sorry, had not seen the dates on the news reports

saip · Post by **saip** » 16 Mar 2010 07:19

Juggi:

What is the idea of posting two months old news? Are you practicing ddmitis?

aditp · Post by **aditp** » 16 Mar 2010 10:10

Kersi D wrote:
ramana wrote:Kersiji, Does India make diesel turbo chargers for trucks etc?
Sorry Raman I do not undertsand your repy.

K

Yes. Turbo Energy Limited (TEL) a TVS group company manufactures KKK / Borg Warner turbochargers for automotive and industrial application at Ranipet near Vellore (TN) - machining only, castings are imported. I think Holset turbochargers used on Cummins truck diesel engines are also manufactured in the country, dont know where exactly. Also, GTRE designed and manufactured the Arjun Tank's turbocharger for the MTU 838Ka501 engine. They should be able to perform the microturbo conversion (in a gazillion years ofcourse).

Kailash · Post by **Kailash** » 16 Mar 2010 10:21

rohitvats wrote: Did the IA feel the need for such a system based on operational experience or is it a case of fist having a "dekko" at a capability (LAM) and then issued a RFP? Seems latter to me...

Technology is the driving war strategies these days. This is a budding tech which can be applied and extended to various different applications. Hope they get some ToT

ankit-s · Post by **ankit-s** » 16 Mar 2010 17:28

ramana wrote:

If India already makes such turbo-chargers for its diesel trucks it might be able to create micro turbo jets for such use.

Diesel truck turbochargers for micro Turbojet?

Diesel truck turbocharger is very big, not good for Cruise missiles of such weight, not even a single part.
Guy is talking about smaller internal cumbustion engines with low horse power-C.C
Its a internal combustion engine which uses benzine/petrol and other fuel which is supercharged or turbocharged. CM micro turbojet is comparatively very small.

Truck uses a turbocharger which weighs whopping 57 pounds.
http://tinyurl.com/yj4ludj

And the total LAM weight is :

The LAM vehicle is 62 inches long and weighs 117 pounds

The size matters!

Rahul M · Post by **Rahul M** » 16 Mar 2010 19:25

Hari Seldon wrote:I know a tad novicey but could anyone kindly let on as to why there's no Agni-IV in the series? Just wondering. TIA.

IIRC arun ji surmised that the missing agni-IV is nothing but the sub launched agni-IIISL.

negi · Post by **negi** » 16 Mar 2010 20:05

^ Someone here also suggested the number signifying the range i.e. AGNI-V (5000km+) , it holds true for rest of the family too .

neerajb · Post by **neerajb** » 16 Mar 2010 20:40

nukavarapu wrote:I am pretty sure that a little customization of Lakshya with a GPS receiver and a warhead, we have our own loitering ammunition, Just mera 2 paisa !!!

The army is drooling over two way datalink + EO package for target acquisition in LOAL mode and target homing that comes alongwith LAM. Otherwise there is not much difference left between LAM & WWII era buzz bombs apart from sophisticated navigation system.

Cheers....

Rahul M · Post by **Rahul M** » 16 Mar 2010 20:45

all that is well and good but do they have the C3I system in place (or even in development) to exploit all those capabilities ?

ankit-s · Post by **ankit-s** » 16 Mar 2010 21:22

Rahul M wrote:all that is well and good but do they have the C3I system in place (or even in development) to exploit all those capabilities ?

According to a former Director General Information Systems, a Tactical Command, Control, Communications and Information (TacC3I) system is being developed by the Army. Under this mother system, various other systems such as CIDSS (Command Information Decision Support System), ACCCS (Artillery Combat Command and Control System), BSS (Battlefield Surveillance System), ADC&R (Air Defence Control and Reporting System), and BMS (Battlefield Management System) are being developed separately. Efforts are also underway to finalise a net-centric warfare (NCW) philosophy.

abhik · Post by **abhik** » 16 Mar 2010 23:26

The Loitering Attack Missile (LAM) is quite dated and was cancelled a long time ago, because using a turbojet however efficient does not give much 'loitering' time ,LAM giving only 30mins time while the real requirement was for loitering times in hours and even days.The LAM's successor (was featured in future weapons show, but not able to retrieve the video from the net)is powered by a single blade propeller and can drops 3 'dumb bombs' on targets while loitering and when these are exhausted it finally conducts a kamikaze attack. in theater tens of them are released in an area which are networked with each other and and the central system to share situational awareness and coordinate attacks.

Kartik · Post by **Kartik** » 17 Mar 2010 02:43

This week's AW&ST reports that Rafael Advanced Defence Systems of Israel has signed a JV with BEL (Bharat Electronics Ltd.) to manufacture the IIR seekers for the Python-5 missiles as part of the offsets agreement for the Spyder SR-SAM deal that the IA signed with them. Seems like if the Python-5 IIR seeker is to be built in India itself, then the cost of the seeker may go down..which may make a better business case for large-scale induction of the Python-5 as the IAF's WVR weapon of choice to replace the R-73 as existing stocks approach the end of their shelf-life.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 17 Mar 2010 22:53

ARC's Athena rocket

Looks like the Prithvi target vehicle for PAD?AAD tests is something like this.

Juggi G · Post by **Juggi G** » 18 Mar 2010 13:30

A Peek at Next-Generation Agni-V
Mail Today

Shiv Aroor
Wed, Mar 17 01:27 PM

Shrouded in secrecy for its political implications, the first visual impressions of India's most ambitious nuclear delivery system, the Agni-5 ballistic missile, are out. Officials with the Agni programme in Hyderabad Confirmed the Pictures were an Accurate Depiction of the In-Development Weapon.

On February 10, Agni programme director Dr Avinash Chander had told Headlines Today, "The Agni-5 looks similar to the Agni-3, except that it is Longer as a result of an Additional Propulsion Stage."

Still at least a year away from its first test-firing-an official estimate says February 2011- the Agni-5 has already acquired a formidable global reputation. In October last year, in its first ever reference to an Indian weapon programme, China's state-owned People's Daily newspaper pointed out that "India's Agni-5 Missile is Highly Road-Mobile, and effectively puts Harbin, China's northernmost city within striking range."

The Agni-5 is being built to deliver a nuclear warhead out to ranges of 5,000-6,000/ km. Sources reveal that 60 per cent of the first Agni-5 missile system is complete, with work now focused on the weapon's crucial third stage. Scientists are currently tweaking the missile's payload structure, introducing extra heating and making alterations to the re- entry mechanism.

The missile will also be India's first to be propelled by a composite rocket motor as opposed to a metallic one. With the 3,500-km-range Agni-3 to Enter Service with India's Strategic Forces Command- which governs all nuclear weapons- This Year, the Agni-5 will be put through a similar Four-Flight Trial between 2011-2013.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 18 Mar 2010 13:43

are the 'big missiles' in the S300/400 family single or double stage? if they are single stage are
they powered all the way to max range, or climb to 100,000ft and do a unpowered dive toward target at mach4-5?

I ask because their immense size does not indicate much manouverability against agile fighter
size targets, although bombers/awacs/transports are fair game.

in contrast the aster30 is 2 stage and unleashes a agile aam-style kill vehicle and the new 150km range SM-6 missile also unleashes a amraam-derived kv for final intercept.

this approach looks capable of hunting nimble targets to me. if the KV is a ramjet next-gen aam
even better.

ASPuar · Post by **ASPuar** » 18 Mar 2010 13:50

Singha wrote:are the 'big missiles' in the S300/400 family single or double stage? if they are single stage are
they powered all the way to max range, or climb to 100,000ft and do a unpowered dive toward target at mach4-5?

I ask because their immense size does not indicate much manouverability against agile fighter
size targets, although bombers/awacs/transports are fair game.

in contrast the aster30 is 2 stage and unleashes a agile aam-style kill vehicle and the new 150km range SM-6 missile also unleashes a amraam-derived kv for final intercept.

this approach looks capable of hunting nimble targets to me. if the KV is a ramjet next-gen aam even better.

How would it maneuver unpowered? Is this a recognised technique? Sorry, I dont know much about AAM's.

neerajb · Post by **neerajb** » 18 Mar 2010 14:44

Kartik wrote: Seems like if the Python-5 IIR seeker is to be built in India itself, then the cost of the seeker may go down..which may make a better business case for large-scale induction of the Python-5 as the IAF's WVR weapon of choice to replace the R-73 as existing stocks approach the end of their shelf-life.

Do you see this seeker finding it's way to Astra. In his last interview, Saraswat claimed that they are qualifying the IR seeker for Astra. Could this be related to that development?

Cheers....

Kanson · Post by **Kanson** » 18 Mar 2010 18:17

Singha wrote:are the 'big missiles' in the S300/400 family single or double stage? if they are single stage are
they powered all the way to max range, or climb to 100,000ft and do a unpowered dive toward target at mach4-5?

I ask because their immense size does not indicate much manouverability against agile fighter
size targets, although bombers/awacs/transports are fair game.

in contrast the aster30 is 2 stage and unleashes a agile aam-style kill vehicle and the new 150km range SM-6 missile also unleashes a amraam-derived kv for final intercept.

this approach looks capable of hunting nimble targets to me. if the KV is a ramjet next-gen aam
even better.

SM-6 doesnt use any KV. It uses only the seeker of AMRAAM changing from original semi-active in SM-2 to active one in SM-6.

Range of SM-2 without booster is considered to be more than 150 km. So with more than half a tonne weight, the booster can propel the SM-6missile to much higher range. I guess the exact range is classified. One can expect that to be in the class of 48N6 variant 48N6DM ?

There is not much details abt the big missile. But expected to be more like 48N6 missile with some variation.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 18 Mar 2010 19:01

I stand corrected...looks like aster30 and sm2 were
already 2 stage, with a meaty 2nd stage somewhat smaller of 9M96 size...

Rahul M · Post by **Rahul M** » 18 Mar 2010 19:08

ASPuar wrote: How would it maneuver unpowered? Is this a recognised technique? Sorry, I dont know much about AAM's.

yes, most SAMs/AAMs burn all their on-board propellant in the first few tens of seconds of flight to gather max energy and thereafter is on an un-powered ballistic trajectory to the kill box. this phase is called 'coasting'. the next gen AAMs like the ramjet powered meteor will be powered throughout its envelope. of the current SAMs, akash is one of the few (or the only current one ?) that has this feature, in that it is powered throughout its intercept envelope being powered by a ramjet.

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 18 Mar 2010 22:26

Interesting experiments carried by Russians in mid 90's on Scramjet could very well be the basis of hypersonic Brahmos 2 ( via flanker/secretprojects )

http://pdf.aiaa.org/preview/CDReadyMISP ... 5_3320.pdf

ankit-s · Post by **ankit-s** » 19 Mar 2010 00:24

Rahul M wrote:
ASPuar wrote: How would it maneuver unpowered? Is this a recognised technique? Sorry, I dont know much about AAM's.
yes, most SAMs/AAMs burn all their on-board propellant in the first few tens of seconds of flight to gather max energy and thereafter is on an un-powered ballistic trajectory to the kill box. this phase is called 'coasting'.

SAMs and AAMs are different from ballistic missiles, they dont have free fall (coasting after burnout) ballistic trajectory (they are normally meant to shoot the aircrafts). Missiles that are not ballistic are aerodynamic, operating in the atmosphere.

An un-powered missile looses its altitude by seconds on a horizontal chase, because of its heavy mass and looses its target which can maneuver and is still on the run (powered).

Coasting is (Thrust = 0)

If a SAM or AAM is chasing its target without a thrust, what do you expect my friend?

If you know something new that I dont, I want to learn from you.