Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Misraji
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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby Misraji » 08 Jun 2010 23:01



Still not there yet.... :(

...Final trial in July....
It is expected to be inducted by the Army after conducting final validation trials in the deserts of Rajasthan next month.


~Ashish

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby Surya » 09 Jun 2010 06:17

well the final trial they want it to be able to loop back and hit a target 500 meters behind them.

someone saw an AAM doing that on youtube - so why not ATGM :mrgreen:


i wonder if the Milan was ever tested so many times or Konkurs

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby arun » 09 Jun 2010 11:08

The Indian ballistic missile defence system is churning up a veritable alphabet soup of missile interceptors. About to join the AAD and PAD as part of the BMD arsenal is the PDV.

The PDV is an all solid two stage interceptor missile which from what I can infer is a replacement for PAD (?) and designed to intercept IRBM class ballistic missiles with a 2,000 km range.

Besides the PDV, also on the drawing board are AD-1 and AD-2 which are being designed for intercepting ICBM class ballistic missiles with a 5,000 km range.

Sandeep Unnithan quoting DRDO’s Dr. V.K. Saraswat in an article datelined June 7, 2010 on India Today’s web site:

New missile interceptor test in end June: DRDO chief

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby Raye » 09 Jun 2010 12:35

Checkout this old article and this website

DELETED

Admins plz delete if repost
Last edited by Jagan on 09 Jun 2010 20:04, edited 1 time in total.
Reason: Repost

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby Juggi G » 09 Jun 2010 14:19

MBDA Eyes Stronger Ties With India
Aviation Week
European missile manufacturer MBDA says it will Transfer all the “Sensitive” Technology India Requires to Produce the Maitri Short-Range, Surface-to-Air-Missile, such as The Seeker and Thrust Vector Control System.

India’s Defense Research and Development Organization (DRDO) will be prime on the project, with Bharat Dynamics Ltd. as the production partner. The choice of radar will be an Indian one.

This is the first co-development by MBDA outside of its core partner countries. “Ours is an open strategic partnership, which is not the case [with] others,” says Loic Piedevache, head of MBDA in India, perhaps referring to the agreement by India and Israel for a longer-range version of the extended-range Barak ship defense system for the Indian Air Force.

MBDA is looking at 30 projects in India, ranging from the request for information (RFI) stage to active trials. They include M-2000, SM-39 Exocets (36 Nos) for Scorpene submarines, and the ATAM (Air-To-Air Missile) for the Advance Light Helicopter (ALH).

Having won the ATAM (84 Nos) project for the ALH in 2006 for the army and the air force, the first firing has been performed using mock-ups. “We are waiting for live firing at the end of the year,” Piedevache says. Based on the Mistral 2 “fire-and-forget” missile with its advanced infrared seeker, the ATAM was developed by MBDA as the first helicopter-borne air-to-air missile system.

“We hope the ATAM will be fitted on the Light Combat Helicopter when it is ready, as there will be commonality in the equipment, benches, [and] spares,” Piedevache says.

ATAM is lightweight, providing the capability to intercept both helicopters and fighter aircraft at a range of up to 6.5 km. (4 mi.).

MBDA says it is in discussion with the Indian Defense Ministry for offsets for the Mica missile as part of the Mirage 2000 upgrade. Jaguars (100) are also on offer for the upgrade of the advanced short-range air-to-air missile (Asraam). The Indian air force wants to replace the Matra R550 Magic-II short-range missile with Asraam missiles. The year-old RFP is under technical evaluation.

Meanwhile, an agreement was signed in December last year with MDL to transfer production of the Milan anti-tank missile to India.

Piedevache says India is the biggest in terms of priority and “will soon become part of the MBDA structure. We don’t want to be a supplier but want to be involved in co-production, indigenization and have a footprint here. India is the fifth pillar in our structure after the four domestic countries [U.K., France, Italy, and Germany.]”

MBDA will announce its joining with a local partner by end of the year, Piedevache says. “[The] private sector has industrial capacity,” he says. “Many of them want to be in the missile sector and are looking for tie-ups. Our cooperation agreement will be after we get approval of the French government to locally develop and transfer design and production.”

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby vic » 09 Jun 2010 14:51

Juggi G wrote:MBDA Eyes Stronger Ties With India
Aviation Week
European missile manufacturer MBDA says it will Transfer all the “Sensitive” Technology India Requires to Produce the Maitri Short-Range, Surface-to-Air-Missile, such as The Seeker and Thrust Vector Control System.

India’s Defense Research and Development Organization (DRDO) will be prime on the project, with Bharat Dynamics Ltd. as the production partner. The choice of radar will be an Indian one.

This is the first co-development by MBDA outside of its core partner countries. “Ours is an open strategic partnership, which is not the case [with] others,” says Loic Piedevache, head of MBDA in India, perhaps referring to the agreement by India and Israel for a longer-range version of the extended-range Barak ship defense system for the Indian Air Force.

MBDA is looking at 30 projects in India, ranging from the request for information (RFI) stage to active trials. They include M-2000, SM-39 Exocets (36 Nos) for Scorpene submarines, and the ATAM (Air-To-Air Missile) for the Advance Light Helicopter (ALH).

Having won the ATAM (84 Nos) project for the ALH in 2006 for the army and the air force, the first firing has been performed using mock-ups. “We are waiting for live firing at the end of the year,” Piedevache says. Based on the Mistral 2 “fire-and-forget” missile with its advanced infrared seeker, the ATAM was developed by MBDA as the first helicopter-borne air-to-air missile system.

“We hope the ATAM will be fitted on the Light Combat Helicopter when it is ready, as there will be commonality in the equipment, benches, [and] spares,” Piedevache says.

ATAM is lightweight, providing the capability to intercept both helicopters and fighter aircraft at a range of up to 6.5 km. (4 mi.).

MBDA says it is in discussion with the Indian Defense Ministry for offsets for the Mica missile as part of the Mirage 2000 upgrade. Jaguars (100) are also on offer for the upgrade of the advanced short-range air-to-air missile (Asraam). The Indian air force wants to replace the Matra R550 Magic-II short-range missile with Asraam missiles. The year-old RFP is under technical evaluation.

Meanwhile, an agreement was signed in December last year with MDL to transfer production of the Milan anti-tank missile to India.

Piedevache says India is the biggest in terms of priority and “will soon become part of the MBDA structure. We don’t want to be a supplier but want to be involved in co-production, indigenization and have a footprint here. India is the fifth pillar in our structure after the four domestic countries [U.K., France, Italy, and Germany.]”

MBDA will announce its joining with a local partner by end of the year, Piedevache says. “[The] private sector has industrial capacity,” he says. “Many of them want to be in the missile sector and are looking for tie-ups. Our cooperation agreement will be after we get approval of the French government to locally develop and transfer design and production.”


The seeker and electronics comprise almost 90% of the cost and value of missiles. Russians took India to the cleaners in the Brahmos deal. We paid them around US$ 350 million for the missile which was already ready and they have still refused to transfer technology for seeker, ramjet and booster. The Brahmos deal has inspired all the foreign companies to start offering their products under the garb of JV with DRDO. How is it different from license manufacturing is a moot point.

JV means that India must provide funding in “kind” like with manpower and lab testing. But when we providing just the money then it is pure import.

Now the missile JVs and development are getting confusing. First we had Brahmos in which everything is Russian and something might be Indian.
Then we had AAD and PAD where seeker is supposedly Indian or Russian?
We have Astra where the seeker is Indian or Russian or French or Israeli (anybody left?)
We have Nag where the seeker is French?
We have supposedly developed MMW seeker for ATGM use?

Now lets look at JVs. If we have Barak-2 then why are we going for Maitri. In IGMDP the Trishul of 100kg and Akash of 720 made sense. In Barak-2 the missile is only 276kg so why have another short range missile. And in any case if we got to have short range missile then why not use “variant” of Barak -2 or Astra missile?? And In any case are we not getting seeker technology from Barak-2 missiles JV????

Now we are importing Python-5 as part of Spyder and for Navy AAM requirement. There were reports that Rafael and BEL are entering into JV to set up IIR seeker manufacturing plant. What happened?

Now there were reports that we are entering into deal for Asraam AIM-132 and a JV for its future variants. So when we already getting tech for Python-5 why we need one more JV? Also seeker is from a US company who will never give us any technology. So why this JV?

Now take Maitri. Is it offshoot or variant of European project VSHORAD or SHORAD which is ASRAAM based missile with RF and IIR seeker? So then why are we not concentrating on Barak-2 and Python-5.

It is not necessary that multiple sources bring safety. One manufacturing line with deep technology transfer and deep indigenization can be better. I have a feeling that all these JVs are just a method to push imports under JV label.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby Sanku » 09 Jun 2010 15:10

vic these questions have been discussed at length for each item, if instead of looking for monsters under each stone, you actually spent some time in looking at available information and use your data rather than emotions we will have useful discussion

I have a feeling that all these JVs are just a method to push imports under JV label.


Your feelings are not germane to the discussion. I would normally totally ignore such posts, but since you have made a habit of making these rather gratuitous "everything is rotten" post at a rather regular frequency I think it is time that some one pointed it out to you.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby shiv » 09 Jun 2010 17:11

Raye wrote:Checkout this old article and this website
Admins plz delete if repost


Oh really? Were you sleepwaking when you posted the same article in another thread?

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby ramana » 09 Jun 2010 20:27

The Week's Prasanan reports

Missile for Missile:PMO Beat

PMO BEAT

By R. Prasannan

Manmohan Singh tried to be even-handed while giving away the National Technology Day awards to DRDO scientists. He commended their work on missiles, tanks, aircraft, electronic warfare, radar and communication systems. Then he went ballistic: “Our current level of self-reliance in defence R&D is less than our capabilities.”

DRDO chief V.K. Saraswat, who has shot down incoming missiles endo- and exo-atmosphere, made an interception bid within the solemn atmosphere: “...The responsibility for self-reliance should be shared by all stake-holders of MoD [ministry of defence],” meaning the brass-hats and the babus.

Another ICBM from the PM: “...Some defence projects have been delayed... DRDO [should] learn from these experiences and work more closely with the armed forces....”

Saraswat's ABM: “DRDO neither has the power to impose its products on its customer nor the mandate or capacity to produce the developed systems all by themselves.” A point missed by those who compare defence scientists with space and atomic scientists! Space savants don't have to sell their PSLV to anyone. DRDO has to 'sell' Tejas, Arjun and Lakshya to phoren-crazy customers.

Saraswat then launched his own ICBM at the brass-hats: “...While the temptation may be overwhelming to field proven, state-of-the-art imported systems, they [the services], too, have a role to play in the economic and industrial growth of the country.”

Defence scientists have been saying ad nauseam that the services should order local ware in bulk for the industry to grow. But the Army has ordered just 120 Arjun tanks and the Air Force 40 Tejas warjets. No plane-maker in the world, save Hindustan Aeronautics, would set up assembly lines for 40. The services say the systems have to be proven 100 per cent.

No such problem when importing! The MiG-29, indeed the world's finest interceptor, was bought eyes closed when Gorbachev offered it for the first time outside the Warsaw Pact. The Sukhoi-30, the world's best plane of its class, had not even flown when India committed to buy 230.

Qualitative requirements (QR) are diluted if the foreign seller reduces price. But no dilution for Arjun, come hell, highwater or Pakistan's Al Khalid tank. QRs are upped for local ware, midstream. Some missile caught the fancy of IAF in 2004 and the QR for Tejas was changed, after the prototypes had clocked hundreds of test hours. The entire wing, made of locally-invented composite material, had to be re-engineered from square-one on the graph sheet. Nag, the third world's first top-attack anti-tank missile, is still in the lab because the generals asked for a longer range, after it had completed trials.

The Navy asked DRDO to build an electronic warfare system in the 1980s. When DRDO delayed, the Navy went for import. The Public Accounts Committee was horrified that the Navy had “firmly stuck to the short time-frame given to [DRDO] while liberally revising the delivery schedule of the foreign vendor”.

Indeed, DRDO men need to be pulled up. They bite more than what they can chew. They promise the moon, and deliver meteors. They think of themselves as product-developers; they should be technology-developers. Hopefully, the Rama Rao report, which A.K. Antony is implementing, will rectify the lacunae.

Tailpiece: In the 1930s, Prime Minister Stanley Baldwin ordered the Royal Air Force to take Hampdens and Wellingtons even before the prototypes had been tested. He sent the Bristol Beaufort into production straight from the drawing-board. When the Luftwaffe locusts came to bomb Britain into Stonehenge age, the RAF pilots raced to meet them in more than 10,000 rookie planes. That trust, which the brave-hearts had on the wise-minds of their country, created 'the finest hour'.
prasannan@the-week.com



Sadly in India there is little confidence in the boffins!

Anyway watch the space I think the PM is seized of the matter and is driving the reform.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby Anujan » 09 Jun 2010 21:24

ramana wrote:Sadly in India there is little confidence in the boffins!

Anyway watch the space I think the PM is seized of the matter and is driving the reform.


ramana-ji

I think it is a structural problem that can be fixed. First of all, due to peculiar Indian paranoia, the civvies dont involve the armed forces to decide on a National security strategy by treating them as equal partners. This is a remnant of our "Coup paranoia". Take numerous things: Like handing off of the Haji Pir pass. Like stopping the Siachen occupation mid way or the Kashmir operation in 1948. More recently, the contradicting statements about whether the armed forces should be involved in fighting the Maoists (nobody seems to have consulted the Army or Airforce before shooting off statements!!). Army being subservient to the civvies is a good thing: but that does not imply that they be treated with suspicion, be ignored, not be heard or not be treated as an equal partner in national security strategy.

With the result that our armed forces have relegated themselves to, and are content with winning wars and dont see National security strategy as part of their responsibilities. Nobody can blame them. So they want the shiniest and the best toys to win wars. They dont concern themselves with the loss of Forex, or building up of domestic capacity or supporting indigenous R&D*. All of which are critical components of National security, not just winning wars.

Look at US for example, every arms purchase is also aimed at keeping their capabilities alive. For example Lockheed vs Boeing. Same for missiles and subs. The contracts went to corporations to make sure that domestic capacity for building missiles, or subs were retained by more than one company -- even when the other company offered better products. It is because the armed forces realize the value of a supporting Industrial R&D base as a critical component of national security.

Indian armed forces dont realize this. Partly because they are not invited into the room such matters are discussed. The DRDO vs Users is just a tiny symptom of this serious disease.

*The navy is frequently praised as being pro-domestic. It is because "We will be a builder's navy and not a buyer's navy" was one of the founding principles, which has never been questioned and pursued single mindedly. The DRDO-User cooperation is a mentality which is a symptom of this decision and not just a simple attitude displayed by the Navy without an underlying structural issue.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby Craig Alpert » 09 Jun 2010 22:05

RFI for Trajectory Correctable Munitions, Terminally Guided Munitions
9 Jun 2010 8ak: DG Artillery under the Integrated Headquarters of Ministry of Defence (Army) has released 3 RFIs related to ammunition. Two of them are in relation to smart ammunition - Trajectory Correctible Ammunition (TCM) and Terminally Guided Munition (TGM).

8ak did an article on 11 May 2010 that "Less than 1% of Indian munition is Precision Guided". So it good to see that the Army is seriously considering this purchase. The following is a tech primer. 8ak's detailed report "Challenges in India's Artillery Modernisation Program" will be released on Jun 14 which will be tech primer, operating guide and summary of artillery tenders, all in one.

In conventional munition, a fuze is attached to the shell and acts purely as a detonation device which controls whether the munition bursts after a set time, after penetrating the target or at a particular distance from it. In case of such conventional ammunition, the probability of hitting the target is directly proportional to the distance from the gun. There are currently two main ways to make munitions more accurate.

a) Provide navigational information to the munition. Using GPS/INS information, the shell can correct its line and range for improved accuracy. This is trajectory correctible munition (TCM) like BAE Bofors Bonus now under development.

b) Since the target could have moved by the time the co-ordinates reach the gunner, the second method is that instead of getting locational information, the sensors instead get information from the target. In case of the Copperhead or Russian Krasnopol, which are laser guided, the target has to be highlighted with a laser designator, possibly by a forward observer. Since the munition is guided by emissions from or bouncing off the target, it is called Terminally Guided Munition (TGM).

When there is no one to illuminate/highlight the target, sensors IR/MMW can be fitted in to the fuze/shell so that it can identify the target itself. In case of the now discontinued Sadarm system this was done via a IR/MMW sensor fuzed submunitions over the target. This top-attack munition could take out a tank.

But these methods are expensive. Each Excalibur shell in use by the American's in Afghanistan is $80,000 - 100,000. Also, most countries have huge ammunition stockpiles that are not refreshed unless used in war or discarded due to obsolescence. Hence, there are precision guided kits that are basically a replacement for the fuze. These mostly have GPS/INS capability and cost less than $3,000 and offer similar CEPs as that of TCMs.

Use of precision weapons reduces the amount of ammunition required to achieve the mission and hence huge reduction in inventory and related logistics. So it is easy to think that this could be the end of dumb ammunition. But it is not because at short ranges dumb munitions may be just as effective, they are much cheaper and can be used in combination with smart ammunition. For eg a commander may choose to first use a few precision rounds and then follow up with 'steel rain' to create psychological fear in the enemy and destroy other lower value targets/infrastructure. Hence, IHQ (Army) has simultaneously issued a RFI for a 120mm mortar system. US company ATK also offers precision capability in mortars.

The tenders can be found on tenders.gov.in Key people who are expected to respond are BAE Systems, Raytheon, Israel's IAI and Russia's KBP Instrument Design Bureau.


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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby Juggi G » 09 Jun 2010 23:41


putnanja
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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby putnanja » 10 Jun 2010 03:43

Akash Missile System For Indian Army OK'd

The Army version of the Akash missile system, valued at Rs 12,500 crore ($2.8 billion), has been cleared for induction by India’s Defense Acquisition Council (DAC).

The India military services’ combined orders of the Defense Research and Development Organization-developed Akash, including two radars, have a total worth of Rs 23,300 crore. This is an unprecedented defense order for a DRDO-developed weapons system, and the biggest order ever for DRDO’s tactical missile and radar systems.
...
...
“We have decided to split the IAF and Army orders between BEL and BDL to encourage competition within Indian industries and also to increase the synergy between the work centers,” the official said.
...
...

The DAC had earlier approved Rs 2,800 crore worth of 3-D Surveillance-cum-Acquisition Radars, independent of the missiles, for all three services.

“Seventy radars have been ordered, each costing Rs 40 core,” the official said. In addition, the Indian Army has ordered Rs 1,500 crore of Weapon-Locating Radar, each costing Rs 50 crore.
...
...
The Akash missile systems consist of a launcher, a missile with a 25-30 km. range, control center, multifunction fire control radar and supporting ground equipment.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby Prem Kumar » 10 Jun 2010 04:56

Fantastic news!! Its also heartening to see a move to promote competition between BEL and BDL (even though they are both DPSUs). In line with the latest MOD policy on defence production.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby Singha » 10 Jun 2010 10:45

AoA...now the production agencies really have to pull their pants up and deliver .

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby Sid » 10 Jun 2010 11:18

super duper news. where is the emoticon for lungi dance when u need one. :eek: :D

expect early hiccups but process should smooth out in the long run.

Prem Kumar wrote:Fantastic news!! Its also heartening to see a move to promote competition between BEL and BDL (even though they are both DPSUs). In line with the latest MOD policy on defence production.


<OT>
I personally don't support privatization of defense sector as that will permanently place defense industry in India. In the long run it will require fuel to sustain in the form of war economy (like US). If there is no war or conflicts these industries will starve with billions in losses and thousands of job losses.

But in case of DPSU GOI you can wrap up whenever they want, with no ifs and buts or thinking about profit N loss equations. DPSU can keep running even if they are in loss state with no worries of job losses (thanks to poor Indians tax payers money :wink: ) as they have been running for years now.

May be am too senti after reading this news :D
</OT>

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby Aditya_V » 10 Jun 2010 11:33

Any idea how many sqaudrons come to the Army with this order?

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby Mihir.D » 10 Jun 2010 11:36

Aditya_V wrote:Any idea how many sqaudrons come to the Army with this order?


Aditya,

You bet me to the question....

How much does each Army/Airforce Akash squadron cost ? Is the number of squadrons ordered open source information ?

Could BEL and BDL both manufacturing this might also imply that India for once is preparing for mass induction of a home grown weapon system ?

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby vic » 10 Jun 2010 11:48

Aditya_V wrote:Any idea how many sqaudrons come to the Army with this order?


Great news, IAF was to get around 1000 missiles and 8 squadrons for Rs. 5500-6500 crore, I think that the army order should give it around 2000-2500 missiles

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby RamaY » 10 Jun 2010 19:34

HHM (Indic version of AoA) :twisted:

Finally Indian Armed forces are acquiring Indic weapons in Quantity. A total of 2500-3000 akash missiles covering Indian skies.

We need a couple more such orders to ensure at least 3 layers of air-defense in our borders before anything can reach key population/economic centers.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby RamaY » 10 Jun 2010 19:39

The 2.55-tonne BrahMos supersonic anti-ship missile has been modified, shedding 500 kg and getting a new ignition engine to fire the missile at high altitudes.


Question to gurus!

What will be impact of reduced weight (500Kg) and high-altitude on the range of AkashaBrahmos?

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby Sagar G » 10 Jun 2010 21:04

DAC had earlier cleared an Akash order worth Rs 6,500 for the Indian Air Force (IAF), with Bangalore-based Bharat Electronics Ltd (BEL) as its system integrator.


Wow that's cheap I'm ordering one too :rotfl:

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby rajsunder » 10 Jun 2010 22:37



Are these kits Indian designed ones or the ones that we got through TOT from raytheon.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby ramana » 10 Jun 2010 22:41

Did you read the accompanying news report?

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby milindc » 10 Jun 2010 22:41

rajsunder wrote:

Are these kits Indian designed ones or the ones that we got through TOT from raytheon.


What part of this sentence from above link was incomprehensible to you
The Aeronautical Development Establishment (ADE) has successfully designed, developed & carried out the user trials of laser guided bomb kits at Pokhran with the participation of the IAF.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby Rahul M » 10 Jun 2010 23:26

rajsunder wrote:Are these kits Indian designed ones or the ones that we got through TOT from raytheon.

please feel free to educate me about 'the ones we got through TOT from raytheon.'

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby Nihat » 10 Jun 2010 23:27

This Akash situation is rather confusing here.

IAF has placed a definate order for 2 squadrons and it Will order another 4 ( or 6) squadrons soon

What does the figure for 12,800 crore mean in context of the army order.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby Craig Alpert » 10 Jun 2010 23:56

^^ Gentelmen, IAF has 70 Radars (rajendra) being acuqistioned for Akash SAM for RS 2,800 Cr Being that it is a higher quantity the discount is applied and each radar cost about RS 40 CR......

Indian Army has ordered 30 radars for which they are paying RS 1,500 Cr. This works out to about Rs 50 cr PER radar.
RS (2800 + 1500 = 4,300 CR) for Radars ALONE

Now the additional costs involved in getting the missiles, integrating c2centers and support will obviously add on to the rest...
All in All a good deal as long as they take some of this profit money, and invest it in AKASH 2 (which by recenet news report is going to happen) and as long as the production agency doesn't FAKAP because of POOR workmanship!!!!

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby rajsunder » 11 Jun 2010 00:54

Rahul M wrote:
rajsunder wrote:Are these kits Indian designed ones or the ones that we got through TOT from raytheon.

please feel free to educate me about 'the ones we got through TOT from raytheon.'

http://www.indiastrategic.in/topstories13.htm

this is where i got the info that India was set to get this technology from Raytheon.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby Rahul M » 11 Jun 2010 01:08

it was clearly a testing the waters type of article that doesn't even talk of any concrete proposal, how can you conclude that we got TOT from raytheon based on just this report ? there are hundreds of such proposals floating around, only a handful ever see the light of day.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby rajsunder » 11 Jun 2010 01:15

Rahul M wrote:it was clearly a testing the waters type of article that doesn't even talk of any concrete proposal, how can you conclude that we got TOT from raytheon based on just this report ? there are hundreds of such proposals floating around, only a handful ever see the light of day.

Even i had my doubts about the article, and that is the reason why i asked the knowledgeable members if they knew whether the technology was a Indian built or the one that we got from Transfer of technology.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby JTull » 11 Jun 2010 01:19

We just have to establish a difference between Ordnance Factory Board (OFB) and Aeronautical Development Establishment (ADE) to get to the bottom of this Paveway II ToT. :mrgreen:

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby ramana » 11 Jun 2010 01:42

One thing from the picture posted by ChackoJoseph, there is no conduit to the rear fins and they are fixed not movable like the US ones. So this is not a Paveway copy.

The Indian solution is to add rear fins for center of pressure stability and perform the pitch and yaw control through the forward fins. And these fins rotate and do not extend. Most likely a worm drive of the fins.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby negi » 11 Jun 2010 02:18

The conduit in question is not visible in this picture though.May be a different model/version i.e. Paveway-III or IV have that.

http://www.bharat-rakshak.com/IAF/Image ... b.jpg.html

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby vic » 11 Jun 2010 09:25

I think that Indian LGB has a telescoping fin and the pointy edge of the fin/s pops out of the lower half after being dropped.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby vic » 11 Jun 2010 10:17

Akash orders means something like US$ 5 Billion order in total for various akash missile systems which would be around 3000 missiles, 100 CAR radar, 100 Rajendra radar, 30 WLRRajendra derviative Radar, 1000 Tatra trucks with cranes, 300 genset etc. This is the biggest ever order for any indigenous system by Services. This order suggests that there might be "delay" or "cost" or "technology transfer" problems in Barak-2 or a combination of all three issues. As per open source news Barak-2 is supposed to cost around US$ 2.2 Billion for 432 missiles which would mean that it is around 5 times more costly compared to Akash systems even though it is perhaps 2 generations ahead.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby Austin » 11 Jun 2010 10:58

Barak-2 and Akash SAM are different system , the former is a MR/LR system ( ~ 70 - 150 km ) while the latter is in SHORAD-ER category ( ~ 25 km )

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby Gyle_S » 11 Jun 2010 11:46

Self Deleted

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby RKumar » 11 Jun 2010 16:07

Akash II

The missile will have an intercept range of 30-35 km, or a little over 10-km more than the Mk-I version. Apart from extending range, the Mk-II project mandate will be to increase accuracy of the missile's guidance system and the fire control system, push up the missile's performance, agility, speed, efficiency and accuracy. This will involve tweaking of almost all major systems, including the missile itself, signal processors etc.


Within 2 yrs and no additional budget :eek:

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby Aditya_V » 11 Jun 2010 16:19

Will they include a seeker in the Missile in Akash-MK-II, why do they still need the 55KG warhead, thats seems pretty large when compared to other SAM's standards.

With the better use of Chemicals can't they reduce the weight for the warhead and thereby increase range.

Anyway cheers to the Akash' team


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