INS Arihant (ATV) Launch News and Discussion

Ajit.C · Post by **Ajit.C** » 26 Jul 2009 23:21

Why are there no torpedo tubes at the Stern of the modern day submarines? Will it not give greater advantage to submarines when they are being chased or hunted?

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 26 Jul 2009 23:22

Pumpjet Propulsion and Wide Aperture Array are just too radical for our first sub.

Expect a 7 blade Skewed Propellor , at best a shrouded propellor ( like you see on Typhoon ) , On sonar expect a Bow , Flank and Towed Array , besides the mine hunting one on Sail

Sensitive Hydrophones can be placed at location all over the sub to give it an all round passive listening capability

jamwal · Post by **jamwal** » 26 Jul 2009 23:25

From links that Gagan ji provided;

Wife of Indian PM launches home-made nuclear attack submarine

and
BBC reports:
The BBC's Sanjoy Majumder in Delhi says until now India has been able to launch ballistic missiles only from the air and from land.

Gagan · Post by **Gagan** » 26 Jul 2009 23:25

No towed sonar pod on this one?

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 26 Jul 2009 23:29

Gagan wrote:No towed sonar pod on this one?

Why does one need a dedicated pod , you can even have it in the sail and these days one need not have a huge Akula-2 type pod , but a much smaller cylindrical one for Thin Line LF Active/Passive TAS.

svinayak · Post by **svinayak** » 26 Jul 2009 23:33

Austin wrote:Gagan your guess is as good as mine , so you could be right.

I am interested in knowing how do they maintain such tight secrecy , considering there are scores of Indian , Russian and Defence personal involved , yet nothing much leaked out till the end , how do they manage such big projects with secrecy.

Military news is always controlled in many countries.
In US there is something called Defense Information Agency.

Commercial news agency can be sued by the govt and the Military if they send news reports unathourized by the Govt/Military.

If the govt says something is off limits then the news agency need to follow it. Else they will be in big trouble.

RayC · Post by **RayC** » 26 Jul 2009 23:34

It is good to find here that there are 'Informed' speculations at best!

Gerard · Post by **Gerard** » 26 Jul 2009 23:35

Nuke submarine launch, Kargil - both success for India: Narayanan

The 110-metre long submarine, resembling a giant black shark, was tugged out of the Ship Building Centre here. The Indian Navy flag fluttered atop the vessel and the sailors in snow-white uniform proudly saluted the dignitaries present to witness the momentous occasion.

Gerard · Post by **Gerard** » 26 Jul 2009 23:38

In this photo released by India's Defense Ministry, Indian Prime Minister Manmohan Singh speaks during the launch ceremony of India's first nuclear-powered submarine, INS Arihant at Vishakhapatnam in India, Sunday, July 26, 2009. A dry dock housing the 367 foot (112 meter) long submarine is partially seen in background.

rkhanna · Post by **rkhanna** » 26 Jul 2009 23:41

Btw any idea of the Arihant will have side mounted Arrays?

Gagan · Post by **Gagan** » 26 Jul 2009 23:43

The little hump on the back of the sail could house the towed sonar array.

Looking at the picture of Mrs Gursharan kaur breaking the coconut. The shine on the sub's sail makes it look like a thick layer of Anechoic tile in place. That is no metal.

Hoping for some photos of the sub in the water, out of the drydock by tomorrow.

Kanson · Post by **Kanson** » 26 Jul 2009 23:58

Austin wrote:I am interested in knowing how do they maintain such tight secrecy , considering there are scores of Indian , Russian and Defence personal involved , yet nothing much leaked out till the end , how do they manage such big projects with secrecy.

No, there are various news leaks. Even BR speculated it as one based on Serverodvinsk class. Everyone expected that as we got design docs by leasing Charlie class, we would have got the design details for Akula. On reporting, may be, our Journos followed the dialog, "It is easier to believe the bad things" from "Pretty Woman". Both Aroor and Sandeep being from the same group, while Sandeep talking about Akula, Aroor made remarks as this our first and cant be compared to other subs kind of talk.

PratikDas · Post by **PratikDas** » 27 Jul 2009 00:11

Gerard wrote:Nuke submarine launch, Kargil - both success for India: Narayanan
The 110-metre long submarine, resembling a giant black shark, was tugged out of the Ship Building Centre here. The Indian Navy flag fluttered atop the vessel and the sailors in snow-white uniform proudly saluted the dignitaries present to witness the momentous occasion.

So Arihant did have a date with the outdoors

Sontu · Post by **Sontu** » 27 Jul 2009 00:38

Austin wrote:HEU would mean ~ 90 % Enrichment level bomb grade type ?

Well ~ 80 MW(e) is possible if we managed to develop a OK-650B plus type with ~ 200 MT(t) rating , if a sub is powered by twin such reactor which should give ~ 80 MW(e)

I remember last time around in an old report TSS mentioned a reactor with 100 MW(e)

IIRC the nuke power plant of ATV will use 40% enriched Uranium...so it should be LEU.

But the question is "If all next three ATVs too will have capability to carry only 4 nos of 2M dia SLBMs?"
I would guess that the next three ATVs should have atleast 8-10 SLBM capability,even if they are MIRV'd.

Regards,

vasu_ray · Post by **vasu_ray** » 27 Jul 2009 00:55

think so too, one or two more rib sections would be added, probably the first Arihant was hurried instead of changing it midway in development so that all 3 can make a certain finish line in the future

pushkar.bhat · Post by **pushkar.bhat** » 27 Jul 2009 01:14

I think it will be worth having a look at the specs of the Graney Class. The spec are similar to the Akula but closer to the Arihant. Its worth noting that the standard armament for the Graney class is the Oniks/Yakhont a.k.a SS-NX-26 a.k.a P-800 Oniks. Yakhont is the base design for the Bhramos.. The similarities are too many to be ignored. BTW Project 885 uses a KPM type PWR.

And also read this. I think the Arihant is the Indian 885 with the KPM type PWR.

And check these specs for the Project 885 from Globalsecurity.org

Specifications
Designer J.N. Kormilitsin, SKB-18
Designer J.N. Kormilitsin, SKB-18
Displacement (tons): 5,800-7,700-9,500 surface
8,200-11,800-13,000 submerged
Dimensions (m): 111-120 meters long
12-15 meters beam
8.4-10 meters draft
Propulsion: One KPM type (OK-650B?) reactor
200 MWt pressurised water reactor
turbines of 43,000 shp
Speed (kts): 17-20 knots surfaced
28-31-35 knots submerged
Operating Depth 1,475 feet Maximum Safe Depth
1,804 feet Never-Exceed Depth
2,160 feet Crush depth
endurance 100 days
Crew: 50 [24 officers / 26 enlisted]
or 80-85 (30 officers)
Armament:
# Missiles: ? 8 VLS tubes for 24 cruise missiles ? 24 3M51 Alfa SLCM
# ? 24 SS-N-26 Oniks SLCM
# ? RKP-55/SS-N-21 Granat/Sampson SLCM
Torpedoes: 8 25.6 inch torpedo tubes
# (24 torpedoes, mines or missiles) RPK-7/SS-N-16 Veter/Stallion ASROC
# VA-111 Schval rocket torpedo
# SAET-60M, Type 65-76, Type 65K torpedoes
# Sonar: Irtysh-Amfora suite MGK-500 Shark Gill LF active/passive
# Mouse Roar passive array
# Skat 3 towed array
# Electronics: Rim Hat ESM/ECM
# Snoop Pair Surface Search Radar
# Myedvyeditsa-971 Radar
# Molniya-M Communications

Some really cool yindoo tricks seem to be emerging and also explains the big thank you that came from the PM to the people of Russia. Also explains why some of the folks say that they initially ordered for a Lada and now want a Merc. The yindoos may be hiding some payments and managing to get the folks in CAG fuming all over..

Raja Bose · Post by **Raja Bose** » 27 Jul 2009 01:23

Only in B-R one finds jingos discussing coconuts and their breaking strength in a nuclear submarine thread

I am already in big trouble today morning since I chose INS Arihant over needs of GHQ last night and stayed awake till 3am while she grumpily went off to sleep. And now I don't even have one pic of the darn submarine to show her as proof that all my attentions (to the wrong lady

) were warranted

Gerard · Post by **Gerard** » 27 Jul 2009 01:25

Nuclear submarine Arihant to be fitted with K-15 ballistic missiles

sivab · Post by **sivab** » 27 Jul 2009 01:44

http://www.hindu.com/2009/07/27/stories ... 851000.htm

“A technology demonstrator”

T.S. Subramanian

CHENNAI: Atomic Energy Commission chairman Anil Kakodkar said on Sunday that the Bhabha Atomic Research Centre (BARC), by building the miniaturised reactor that propelled the country’s nuclear-powered submarine, had demonstrated “that we have our indigenous Pressurised Water Reactor (PWR) technology.” He called the launching of INS Arihant “an important milestone” in the Advanced Technology Vessel (ATV) programme. “This PWR technology is very complex. We have been able to compact this reactor and pack it in the cramped space” of the hull of the submarine, Dr. Kakodkar told The Hindu from Visakhapatnam where the submarine was launched.

The shore-based PWR has been working at Kalpakkam, 60 km from Chennai, for the past three years, he said.

...

To a question, the AEC Chairman said, “Yes, we miniaturised the reactor [on our own]. The basic complexity is that you have to make it into a compact power system to fit into a submarine.”

Srikumar Banerjee, BARC Director, also stressed that “the event marks the beginning of PWR technology in India.” The BARC made many design features to make this reactor compact. “There are novelties not only in the reactor’s design but in its manufacturing,” he said. For instance, the steam generator which drove the turbine to generate electricity, was compacted in a novel manner. The heart of the reactor is the steam generator.

...

Asked whether the Russians helped the BARC in miniaturising the reactor, Dr. Banerjee said, “No, no. They were consultants…Consultancy was done for the whole submarine, not for the power part alone.”

...

http://www.hindu.com/2009/07/27/stories ... 200100.htm

In an informal interaction with correspondents , Atomic Energy Commission chairman Anil Kakodkar on Sunday said that India should not be targeted and denied the Enrichment and Reprocessing (ENR) rights by the G8 countries.

Dr. Kakodkar said while the country had the indigenous capability in all aspects of ENR, it should also be given the same rights as other countries.

He said India conducted itself with responsibility and “should have the same benefit of countries with such technology. It [India] should not be targeted.”

negi · Post by **negi** » 27 Jul 2009 01:46

Sontu wrote:
Austin wrote:HEU would mean ~ 90 % Enrichment level bomb grade type ?

Well ~ 80 MW(e) is possible if we managed to develop a OK-650B plus type with ~ 200 MT(t) rating , if a sub is powered by twin such reactor which should give ~ 80 MW(e)

I remember last time around in an old report TSS mentioned a reactor with 100 MW(e)
IIRC the nuke power plant of ATV will use 40% enriched Uranium...so it should be LEU.

But the question is "If all next three ATVs too will have capability to carry only 4 nos of 2M dia SLBMs?"
I would guess that the next three ATVs should have atleast 8-10 SLBM capability,even if they are MIRV'd.

Regards,

Er.. a fuel rod with greater than 20% concentration of 235U or 233U is a HEU fuel rod in nuclear jargon, hence practically most of the Nuclear subs use HEU including the majority of the RU fleet as well as INS Arihant (21-40% HEU).
Amriki and Munna UKstan use WGU .

Surya · Post by **Surya** » 27 Jul 2009 01:48

22 pages and a lot junior jingoes speculating

sigh when will you graduate to the next level - ie. you will know when they need you to know.

Move on

shravan · Post by **shravan** » 27 Jul 2009 01:50

kommersant.ru

6000-ton submarine INS Arihant is the first of five planned submarine reactor with a capacity of 85 megawatts. Submarine is capable of a speed of 44 km / h in submerged condition, and is designed for the crew of 95 people. It will be equipped with torpedoes, and ballistic missiles.

===

http://en.rian.ru/world/20090726/155628085.html

The long-running project to build the submarine, completed with Russian help, is part of a $2.9-billion plan to build five submarines.

The design was based on a Charlie 1 submarine that India leased from the Soviet Union in the late 1980s. Sea trials and weapons tests will take place in the Bay of Bengal, and the submarine is expected to enter service in two or three years.

negi · Post by **negi** » 27 Jul 2009 01:51

^ Hell...after waiting for these many years JINGOs don't even get to see a simple JPEG of the new born , a coconut and a glimpse of some mysterious black body is what we got .

...this bruhaha is but natural .

Gerard · Post by **Gerard** » 27 Jul 2009 02:06

“Destroyer of enemies” steps out

Arihant rose out of the dry dock when water from the harbour flooded it and was slowly towed a few metres. This was preceded by an invocation from the Atharva Veda with three women offering prayers to the earth, space and heaven.

vera_k · Post by **vera_k** » 27 Jul 2009 02:22

^^^

INC is now appropriating Hindutva-vadi behavior

Surya · Post by **Surya** » 27 Jul 2009 02:41

Negi

For jingoes like me the pleasure is not in a picture of the Arihant but the visualization of squiming a$$ wipes at Gobalsecurity, various ayotollahs , some Aussie sinophiles etc etc - whose frustrations must have reached peak levels by now

Picture them and it will make you feel better

negi · Post by **negi** » 27 Jul 2009 02:51

^ Boss I am an ordinary mijjile maalish paalish type SDRE who seeks worldly and materialistic pleasures before I think about nirvana....i.e. major takleef to NPA's ,Paki and Chicom brigade.

sanjaykumar · Post by **sanjaykumar** » 27 Jul 2009 03:05

I am already in big trouble today morning since I chose INS Arihant over needs of GHQ last night and stayed awake till 3am while she grumpily went off to sleep. And now I don't even have one pic of the darn submarine to show her as proof that a

I suggest you don't mention you were looking for pics of things long and hard and full of seamen.

Gerard · Post by **Gerard** » 27 Jul 2009 03:14

Two more submarines on cards

Private sector played a major role in Arihant

Gerard · Post by **Gerard** » 27 Jul 2009 03:21

shiv aroor's blog

http://livefist.blogspot.com/2009/07/fi ... aunch.html

we were just ten metres from it and watched the entire show simply awestruck. But that thing you see behind Dr Singh in the second photo is INS Arihant!

First things first -- the submarine is visible based on the Russian Borei-class SSBN

A dark matted olive shade, its anechoic tiles clearly demarcated (or a bad weld job?) ...The boat does not have a towed array sonar pod, and has a gradual gradiented hump. According to the official figures released today, the submarine is 110-meters long, 11-metres wide and has a submerged displacement of 6,000-tons.

csharma · Post by **csharma** » 27 Jul 2009 03:22

Description of the Arihant by Telegraph journalist.

http://www.telegraphindia.com/1090727/j ... 286811.jsp

India’s nuclear sub: There she lies like a supine beast, hidden from satellite eyes

Visakhapatnam, July 26: The conning tower is a crusty jet black. It sits on a hull rolled with a mat of black squares. The surfacing is uneven. Reflections of saffron sodium and white mercury lights from the workshop’s ceiling gleam off the mosaic of silvery black that wraps the body of the vessel.

India’s first nuclear submarine is supine like a slothful beast in a narrow strip of water flanked by concrete banks inside the super-secretive Ship Building Centre here. It does not look like the ultimate weapon — the “Brahmastra” — that it is supposed to be.

But Prime Minister Manmohan Singh is here and he announces the “launch of India’s first indigenous nuclear-powered submarine”. His wife Gursharan Kaur unveils the metal plaque on the front of the conning tower (a raised platform from which an officer can “con” or control the vessel by giving directions to others).

It reads “INS Arihant”, Sanskrit for “destroyer of enemies”.

In the 30 years of the project, no Prime Minister has even acknowledged its existence publicly. Schedule and serendipity have worked for the Prime Minister whose main task so far has been to take India out of “nuclear isolation”.

The Arihant is now fit for trials, not fit for war. That will take about four years, maybe more.

“First, we go into harbour trials,” says Vice Admiral B. Kannan, programme director, ATV. “In it, we will test each piece of equipment. First, we get its fluids running and then we will get its heart ticking.”

It will be at least a year before the (nuclear) reactor is fired and after that the sea trials.

The Indian Navy owns the submarine now. The vessel is towed by the tail by two tugboats. The tugboats are out in the water in the naval channel of Vizag harbour. The sub is towed a few metres, maybe 20, in slow motion. The vessel is not on own power.

A yellow light revolves on its conning tower where the commanding officer, Captain Anshuman Dutt, is standing, and emphasises the movement. The conning tower itself is to the fore, closer to the bow, rather than in the centre like older, conventional submarines.

Below and behind the conning tower that is stepped, sailors in white uniform drape yellow life jackets around their necks. Some are on the “hump”, just aft, three are on the bow.

The hump, one officer says, will open a hatch to fire missiles vertically. There may be four tubes underneath, each capable of holding three nuclear-tipped SLBMs — submarine-launched ballistic missiles.

The Arihant is gliding again, tail first, but it is still under the roof of the workshop. It will not be towed across the naval channel, out in the open, in daylight, to its next base — Site Bravo — right now. Site Bravo is the spanking new workshop across the naval channel, about — in landlubbers’ terms — a kilometre away. There is a flurry of satellite activity suspected overhead, maybe spy satellites, eager to take images.

Inside this yard of the Ship Building Centre, the only photography allowed is by three cameramen who are either authorised naval personnel or defence ministry staff. No television. No live images.

The media is confined to a space by the naval band. We are on the starboard (right) side of the vessel. We see only the top half of its profile.

But the length is within grasp. From the tip of its tail to its snub-nosed bow, the Arihant is 112 metres, longer by far than any of the submarines in the Indian Naval fleet. At its widest, it is 11 metres in diameter.

The size of the SSBN — the ship submersible ballistic nuclear missile — that the Arihant is, registers first-up.

Russia’s ambassador to India and Russian technologists associated with India’s nuclear submarine programme are present here. Their contribution is richly acknowledged.

“We never had a nuclear submarine, and we needed design consultancy from them,” Vice Admiral Kannan says. The Arihant has about 40 per cent indigenous content. The next two submarines of the same class that are planned are likely to have more.

Commodore C.S. Rao, from the ATV programme’s design department, explains that the undulating surface is probably the outcome of the mosaic of anechoic — rubberised — tiles. Is it bad workmanship?

Rao says the special tiles are said to be capable of absorbing sound waves — the way sound navigation and ranging (sonar) operates — and give the Arihant more stealth. Sonar tries to identify and detect by the reflection of sound waves. Submarine detectors, as well as submarines, rely on sonar.

In the middle of the hull — the body — on the starboard side, there are two rectangular vents. They appear to be perforated. They are meant to take in water when the submarine dives.

“This is a double-hull. What you see is the outer hull through which the water will go in and help take the sub down,” says Rao. That’s common to all submarines. The inner, pressurised hull, is another cocoon. He is talking of a cocoon within a cocoon.

At the snub-nose in the bow, on the waterline right now because the submarine is still on the surface, is a sheet of white metal that contrasts with the blackness of the rest of the hull. They are the sonar sheets of the Arihant.

Below it, on either side and under the water, are three or four tubes angled upwards. They are the torpedo barrels. The missiles with nuclear warheads won’t come out of here. The Arihant may not even have to use this in a conflict. It is a strategic weapons platform, expected to be escorted by the hunter-killer-attack submarines.

The nuclear-tipped missiles that will go into its silos are being tried and tested on land. First, it is likely to be armed with the K-15, that have a range of 750km, and subsequently, a more developed missile, at best called the “K-X” now, that is being designed by the Defence Research and Development Organisation and Bharat Dynamics to have a range of at least 1,500km. Even that is not “strategic”.

The Indian Navy is operating under the belief that it has to compete with the Chinese and must be capable of launching a missile from a submarine with a nuclear warhead that is capable of hitting the target from at least 3,500km.

If a reality check were needed, here it is: The Chinese PLAN (People’s Liberation Army Navy) has 10 nuclear submarines. Some of them are attack (SSN) and some are SSBN in the same category as the Arihant.

Inside the ship-building yard, the Arihant glides to a stop. The water hardly ripples. Captain Dutt on the conning tower is speaking into a walkie-talkie. The vessel will have a crew of more than 90 but less than 100.

The crew will have to be put through endurance tests. “The submarine has enough time, it is the fatigue factor that matters,” says an officer from Naval Headquarters, here for today’s programme. “It’s claustrophobic inside a sub; you notice little things about others, it can be annoying. It’s a psychological thing for the crew,” he says.

The idea behind a nuke sub is to stay quiet and undetected undersea for weeks, possibly months. The Advance Technology Vessel project was “officially” begun in 1984 — 25 years ago. The crew will have less, far less, a time to prepare.

Ten years after Kargil, war keeps getting more onerous.

Gerard · Post by **Gerard** » 27 Jul 2009 03:33

BBC just ran video of coconut breaking (water streaming from the midline pre-cut), MMS speaking (Arihant behind him with sailors standing on top) with a quick pan of the people inside the SBC. The <1 sec pan looked like camera phone quality.

Avid · Post by **Avid** » 27 Jul 2009 03:36

Gerard wrote:shiv aroor's blog

http://livefist.blogspot.com/2009/07/fi ... aunch.html
First things first -- the submarine is visible based on the Russian Borei-class SSBN

ummm the Borei class is a behemoth, which according to Wiki is:
Displacement: 14,720 t (14,488 long tons) surfaced
24,000 t (23,621 long tons) submerged
Length: 170 m (557 ft 9 in)
Beam: 13.5 m (44 ft 3 in)

And the other claim of Graney class - seriously, consider some reading.

Are we basing on Borei and scaling down to go from 14,720 to 6,000? Going from Bulava to K-15, etc. etc.?

vera_k · Post by **vera_k** » 27 Jul 2009 03:42

No one's seen a picture of the sub yet. The specs handed out by the government can very well be more obfuscation meant to cover up the real specs.

Raja Bose · Post by **Raja Bose** » 27 Jul 2009 04:12

^^ Because you learn to crawl before you walk...

RavinM · Post by **RavinM** » 27 Jul 2009 04:35

Arihants graphic picture- from Shiv's Blog

http://i1011.photobucket.com/albums/af2 ... s/ATV2.jpg

Guddu · Post by **Guddu** » 27 Jul 2009 04:40

First things first -- the submarine is visible based on the Russian Borei-class SSBN

[/quote]

Just because the external conning tower or other appendage resembles Borei/Akula/Charlie, are we not taking a huge leap of faith and attributing derivation from that class. We have no information about the internals (which likely define the class of submarine). Furthermore, its very likely that we have adapted the best features from multiple classes of submarines.

Suraj · Post by **Suraj** » 27 Jul 2009 04:48

There are several submarines that have sections that look similar. Any whines about 'Arihant is not indigenous

' are at best based on presumption. It's not clear to me how any reporter at the SBC can authoritatively claim the length was either 105 or 112 metres, or what the indigenous content is, while being sequestered in one corner. The press was going to get few truthful answers during the launch ceremony from anybody.

Cybaru · Post by **Cybaru** » 27 Jul 2009 05:17

104-105 or 110-112 ??

The reports are all over the place..

negi · Post by **negi** » 27 Jul 2009 05:27

Shiv aroor with all due respect was made to eat humble crow biryani on BRF and seems he has not changed

First things first -- the submarine is visible based on the Russian Borei-class SSBN (moments before we saw the real sub in its dock, we noticed the official invitation had a silhouette of the submarine indicating that it's almost definitely based on the Borei). The submarine has a launch crew commanded by Captain Anshuman Dutt. A phenomenal sight in the Matsya Dock of the Shipbuilding Center (SBC), the submarine was slowly towed out, as we I and other journalists sat ten metres from it, pretty much just in absolute amazement, and simply overwhelmed by the moment. The advanced technology vessel!

A dark matted olive shade, its anechoic tiles clearly demarcated (or a bad weld job?) The boat, bearing all the obvious signs of Russian influence, will undergo harbour acceptance trials (HATs) and full systems trials over the next one year, followed by sea trials and then weapon systems trials. The boat does not have a towed array sonar pod, and has a gradual gradiented hump. According to the official figures released today, the submarine is 110-meters long, 11-metres wide and has a submerged displacement of 6,000-tons.

While the bolded part definitely does not help our cause....it for sure indicates the fact that Shiv Aroor is smoking something very strong or he is merely fabricating things.

1. Borei is a huge submarine (Length: 170 m (557 ft 9 in),Beam: 13.5 m (44 ft 3 in),Draught: 10 m (32 ft 10 in) and weighs about 14ktonne surfaced) and it has a distinct coning tower (first of its kind in RU or may be world over) with a negative angle of inclination .

2. He says it has a gradual hump now amongst the RU subs the Akula is the one which is known for the distinct low silhouette with a coning tower which blends into the HULL structure and this baby being anywhere around 6000-7000 tonnes does not resemble a Borei from any angle.