INS Arihant (ATV) Launch News and Discussion

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 18 Jul 2009 00:34

Livefist claims its our Nerpa

Nerpa

The flank array sonar marked in white , seems to be huge

Suraj · Post by **Suraj** » 18 Jul 2009 01:21

I think the complaints about the Arihant's lack of great potency are a bit premature and unrealistic. Just for perspective, there's no other nation whose first attempt at an indigenously designed and built submarine was an SSBN. Notwithstanding the arguments regarding the lack of sufficient testing of our high yield thermonuclear arsenal, we have been extraordinarily persistent in pushing this project to this point, through all manner of technical, political and economic hurdles and interference.

Just IMHO, now is not the time to criticize the ATV; it feels like cricitizing a newborn about the shape its limbs when you first see it. In fact, we haven't even seen the Arihant. Wait a few days, celebrate the launch, and when more information is forthcoming (as opposed to the sum total of several bits of hearsay at present), we can conduct a more realistic analysis of its capabilities. Around that time, we'll also learn how ATV-2 and ATV-3 will differ, and from the rumours so far, they're likely to be bigger than the Arihant, with more VLS tubes, for one.

Arun_S · Post by **Arun_S** » 18 Jul 2009 02:16

Suraj: ATV on its own is a magnificent effort and accomplishment, no doubt about it. And one can rejoice for the result of the sweat spent on it.

Also recognize that ATV is simply a vehicle, it does not become a weapon system till it has a compatible payload to deliver.
All that I am saying that rejoicing ATV/Arihant as a weapon system that will frighten or deter serious challengers arrayed against India, is ludicrous, and self gratification. India has to match the determination shown in ATV realization with redoubling effort to realize a credible complementary warhead, without which the system is incomplete and inadequate for stated deterrence purpose.

ATV is a mid-mark milestone in a marathon, there is that other half to go.
Singing laurels in praise of having finished the marathon race will be a serious mistake, that is what I am cautioning and reminding reader about.

And for that other half BARC and GoI has to deliver (I.e. make lemonade out of the two lemon R.Chidambram and Indo-US Nuclear deal served on India).

Gerard · Post by **Gerard** » 18 Jul 2009 02:26

Where is the evidence for all this 'lemon' talk?

Suraj · Post by **Suraj** » 18 Jul 2009 02:41

Arun_S: It was not my intention to suggest that the ATV is complete. Far from it, I don't even see it as a weapons platform yet, until they have completed all systems integration, sea trials, and subsequently initiated underwater launch testing of the K-15 or better yet, the A3SL. Maximal deterrence potential in KTage/MTage is even further off. I don't see the Arihant ever do more than limited deterrence patrols; it serves to finetune our abilities at SSxN development and use. To me, it doesn't matter if it becomes our version of the sole Chinese Xia class SSBN - little more than a validation platform. Even in such a case, its contribution would be invaluable.

The Arihant is many things in one - from the first locally developed submarine, to the first SSBN to be. As a platform, it will both evolve in capabilities as it is enhanced, and will contribute to making ATV-2/3 and beyond, even more capable as a second strike deterrent platform. To depict the Arihant as a 'useless toy' does us no favours at all, and quite frankly, I find the lack of nuance in the cricitism rather jarring.

PS: the discussion on the strategic nuclear weapons is tangential to this thread.
PPS: I suggest we split off all the ATV news since the post on Sandeep Unnithan's India Today article, into a separate ATV thread. In a few days this thread will run on afterburners.

hnair · Post by **hnair** » 18 Jul 2009 03:09

48 FBF "teeny" bums is enough to keep the current "Adversero Uno" in check. The bigger Kongs have bought their peace from us. For the time being. We dont threaten them yet and there is no need to let those yoga studios in Beverly Hills go belly-up. At least till we bulk up on soft power areas. And anyways, Little Kim and Pakis has taught us a few things on big Kong thresholds.

The sagarika/AgniIII+3mirv is good to threaten a lot of this list of cities. Their cities fall below the million population mark only in the 40s. That is a lot of threatened people living under a non-representative govt, if you ask me. Their rulers would not want these "masses" to look up from their bowls, when we unclasp our sabres with the tiniest of clicks. Thank god for that village-hugger Gandhiji and "babu laziness" in hiding behind Gandhi: we dont have that long a list of targets yet. As Shiv-saar (and good General Turgidson in another context) has repeatedly pointed out, our genes are allover the countryside. West says it is bad for sanitation but I say it is good for strategitation

Rahul M, for the time being, Arihant might need to punch through the Malacca straits.

mandrake · Post by **mandrake** » 18 Jul 2009 03:11

PM’s wife to launch INS Arihant, India’s first nuclear submarine
Sandeep Unnithan

Prime Minister Manmohan Singh’s wife Gursharan Kaur is to crack the auspicious coconut marking the historic launch of India’s first nuclear-powered ballistic missile submarine at the naval dockyard, Visakhapatnam on July 26. The launch, which naval tradition demands always be performed by a lady, is also the tenth anniversary of the conclusion of the Kargil War.

After spending over a decade cloaked under an obscure project name, the Advanced Technology Vessel (ATV) India’s first nuclear submarine finally gets a name: Arihant (destroyer of enemies), pulled out of a list with options like Astra. But more importantly, the Arihant propels India into an exclusive league of only five other nations who have designed and built their own nuclear-powered submarines. It also marks the first step towards the acquisition of the third leg of the nuclear triad— a secure underwater platform for launching nuclear weapons.

Based on the design of a Charlie-1 submarine which India leased from the former Soviet Union between 1987-’91, the submarine is currently housed in a completely-enclosed dry-dock called the Shipbuilding Centre (SBC) in Visakhapatnam. The launch, where the long, narrow dry dock is to be flooded with water from the harbor and the submarine floated out, is only the first step.

The Arihant is to be towed out of the SBC into an enclosed pier for its harbor trials. The trials will prove its nuclear powerplant and auxiliary systems before it heads out into the Bay of Bengal for sea trials and weapon trials of the 12 K-15 ballistic missiles it is armed with. It will take the submarine etween two and three years before commissioning.

In the meantime, the navy will get its first nuclear submarine, the Chakra, an Akula-2 class nuclear powered attack submarine currently undergoing sea trials in the Pacific Ocean off Vladivostok. The Chakra is to be commissioned later this year before sailing to Visakhapatnam. The submarine (known s the Nerpa in Russian service) is being acquired on a ten-year lease from Russia under a secret agreement signed in January 2004. India paid $ 650 million for the completion and lease of the submarine which is being acquired to rapidly train crews to man the fleet of three nuclear submarines which are to be inducted by 2015. Hull sections of two more ATVs have been completed by L&T at its Hazira facility and are to be transported to the SBC for assembling soon after the Arihant vacates dock space.

Rahul M · Post by **Rahul M** » 18 Jul 2009 03:19

Rahul M, for the time being, Arihant might need to punch through the Malacca straits.

malacca strait is not deep enough for a sub to pass unnoticed, any force will be able to pick up and tag a sub passing through it.
malacca strait is not an option for a SSBN.
the only way would be to go round it but without IN developing some capability to sanitise the seas in SE asia that is a risky proposition.

Rahul M · Post by **Rahul M** » 18 Jul 2009 03:42

deterrence-wise ATV does not change the game (yet) vis-a-vis china till the SL is ready and in service. but that doesn't take away from the fact that

a) firmly establishes India's 2nd strike capability wrt TSP once and for all. no amount of denial will allow the paki generals to change that.

b) establishes a limited deterrence wrt PRC as and when the SL comes. (I can't see how k-15 will impact balance wrt china)

c) serve as a testbed for bigger and more capable SSBNs as well as SSNs

d)I would hazard a guess that as and when c is available, first ATVs will be modded to pure SSGNs. may be even the reported 3rd ATV will be a SSGN/SSN

all said and done, INS Arihant will signal the dawn of a new era.

Mahendra · Post by **Mahendra** » 18 Jul 2009 04:02

Chill R Singh Sahib,

My spies are reporting manifold increase in streaks of brown being noticed on the white pants of the rear admire-als in Pindi and Lear Admilars in Peiking

Jai ho, let us celebrate this huge achievement by the indian scientific community, this is a game changer, I am beginning to think the recent capitulation by MMS to the Pigs in egypt might just be a ploy to deflect world attention from the launch of the sub which will cause major international takleef( and also takleef to Arundathi Roy et al)

Gagan · Post by **Gagan** » 18 Jul 2009 04:03

X post:

My version of the ATV:

Rahul M · Post by **Rahul M** » 18 Jul 2009 04:05

mandrake wrote:
Sandipan wrote:You got to delete this post if possible and move it to Indian Naval Discussion if possible
Mods might as well move part of Indian Naval discussion thread related to ATV in its last few pages and merge it here, so that it can be preserved.

will do so.

gagan, awesome ! add some colour !

hnair · Post by **hnair** » 18 Jul 2009 04:20

Rahul M wrote: the only way would be to go round it but without IN developing some capability to sanitise the seas in SE asia that is a risky proposition.

Yes, indeed saar, the way that IAC (now Vikrant) tonnage started creeping up (17k -> 25k -> 32k -> 40k) since 90s seems to point to that. From amphibious assault + anti-sub/shipping british type carriers (to deal with, er, "island principalities with neta-babu-banking centers" like Mauritiu....I mean Bahamas) to the "aviation cruisers" to protect SSBNs from MPAs/LHDs/other subs like the Russian ones, the role of IAC seem to have subtly changed over two decades. We even bought one off shelf recently, forgot its name....

But then, History Channel's Sun Tzu-zoos says "SLBMs with longest mijjiles travel and sleep alone". So does Tom Clancy.

Gerard · Post by **Gerard** » 18 Jul 2009 05:42

http://www.fas.org/blog/ssp/2009/02/patrols.php

The information, which was declassified by U.S. naval intelligence in response to a Freedom of Information Act request from the Federation of American Scientists, shows that China’s fleet of more than 50 attack submarines conducted 12 patrols in 2008, twice the number of patrols conducted in 2007.

China’s strategic ballistic missile submarines have never conducted a deterrent patrol.

And their latest SSBN isn't exactly state of the art either

http://www.armscontrolwonk.com/1677/more-boomer-mania

Very Trireme-esque.. one half expects to see oars being extended

Arun_S · Post by **Arun_S** » 18 Jul 2009 05:42

Rahul M wrote:Arun saar, bhat 'bout answering my query ?

Rahul M wrote:rsingh ji, for the moment, an IN sub operating on the other side of mallacca straits is nearly impossible. it will have to be the 4000/5000 km shots for us to be confident.

arun saar, what is th current status of agni-3SL ? any tentative timeframe ?

Rahul ji: Quite frankly, "Ram Jaaney".
A-3SL will come after A3/A5 has been tested few times to validate the propulsion and guidance system plus validated the MIRV few times. It will be some time for Arihant to start petrol with 1,800 km range Sagarika. IMVHO A3SL will breath "Hunkaar" in ~4-5 years.

Jai Ram Jee Ki

Rahul M · Post by **Rahul M** » 18 Jul 2009 05:56

Arun ji, feared as much, the land based ones will have to do for the time being.

Venkarl wrote:
Gerard wrote:Some SLBMs have never left port.
The Chinese SSBN has never made a single deterrent patrol.
With all due respects Sir..how do you know?

with all due respect sir why don't you google for "xia submarine" and read the first 4 articles that come up. this is quite common knowledge.

Baljeet · Post by **Baljeet** » 18 Jul 2009 06:30

Venkral
I am with Rahul on this one. Didn't you read through newbie thread before posting. Stay in training for while, learn how to disseminate information, critically analyze, seperate BS from Reality.

Gagan · Post by **Gagan** » 18 Jul 2009 06:59

Before agni 3 is ever deployed on the ATV, several criteria will have to be met.
1. The agni 3 family will have to be tested and verified by ground based launches, as per arun saar.
2. Massa will have to be convinced that agni 3 on the ATV is not targeted at it. massa's minnons in nai dilli will have to seek permission for this.
3. India attains a certain level of indispensibility in the scheme of things, graduates economically into one of the big boys. Then India can play the games just like today's big boys.

This is akin to india deploying an ICBM from land. This won't happen today, we aren't even testing the agni 5 system that is already ready to be tested since the last > 1 year.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 18 Jul 2009 07:08

well one can hardly blame the lead boat of a SSBN class (Xia) for being a extended testbed. Their 1st Han SSN was a testbed for 10+ yrs before the 2nd came out.

one interesting comment in the arms control link. maybe the small.chankian.efficient.MMS is the new paradigm in sub design too

This brings me to the real issue which is, for the Chinese, is the traditional SSBN with a large loadout of missiles (12 tubes, ? warheads per missile) the wrong approach if their goal is to challenge the US? I believe it is for the following reasons:

SSBNs as conceived by the major nuclear powers are too big, concentrate too many missiles in too few large platforms that are too easy to detect and destroy. The modern battlefield is going to be laden with sensors, autonomous robots, and other hunters who will have little to lose from exposing their position by going ‘active’. Low radiated noise is no longer the guarantee of stealthness it once was. Furthermore, with the deployment of ABM systems on the most likely paths for missiles to be launched argues for SSBNs to be able to operate in waters where they are not expected: e.g. for the Russians to send a few boats with ICBMs off the coast of Brazil to strike at the Northeastern US from a different direction, complicating efforts at detection, interception and deployment of a continent wide ABM system.

Given these issues, the ideal boat may be not a boat, but a fleet of relatively small boats that carry a few (2 to 4) ICBMs with 10,000km+ range that greatly complicate the job of the hunter – especially if it is a navy that is rapidly going from 300 to 150 ships. Instead of carrying missiles that launch vertically, ICBMs can be carried horizontally along the length of the hull as encapsulated missiles that are ‘pushed out’ and launched on the surface, making for a far smaller boat in terms of frontal cross section. Such a boat can also be made smaller by configuring it with a hybrid diesel-nuclear-electric drive, where a small (perhaps gas cooled) nuclear plant or battery just generates enough electricity for the boat to ‘loiter’ at, say 8 knots but bursts of speed will require battery power. A hybrid nuclear system would extend endurance vis-a-vis either a conventional or a AIP drive, allowing for long patrols. Advances in battery technology like industrial sized lithium ion cells can provide higher power densities than lead acid cells, making the overall package not necessarily much larger than a conventional diesel-electric and probably comparable with an AIP drive but with longer endurance. While composite materials are not ready for prime time, selective use of composite materials in a hybrid metal-composite layout can offer the benefits of a much smaller and lighter hull. e.g. using composites on internal hoops that are primarily stressed in compression, which would also offer the possibility of reducing hull popping noises that are difficult to eliminate in an all metal hull. Composites may also be used in the outer hull of a double hull, where the material may allow for radical shapes, perhaps for flat, slab sided hulls to confer a degree of stealthness on a submarine operating in an intense ‘active’ sonar environment.

There are very few nations that have the combination (or potential combination) of expertise, technical skill, financial resources, audacity and determination to think along this direction and to create a fleet of 21st century SSBNs with these characteristics. China is one of them. Hopefully they will see no need for it.

— Lao Tao Ren · Oct 16, 04:56 PM ·

vina · Post by **vina** » 18 Jul 2009 07:56

small.chankian.efficient.MMS

Yup. One of the posters here, (Gagan I think) has it right. The Arihant is really not a "boomer" in the conventional sense with around 12 to 16 tubes with each missile pack nearly a dozen warheads. It is really a "multirole" sub with a very competent hunter killer role and the abitlity to deliver a second strike . The best way to look at is as if instead of the cruise missiles in A'Khani attack subs, we have ballistic missiles instead because of the "strategic" role. Other countries clearly separate the "strategic" and "tactical" subs, but what to do, 'em thin starvin Yindoos have conflated the two.

I guess if they build true boomers in future, then Arihant can revert back to being a pure SSK and have the Sagarikas and A3s replaced with land attack Brahmos in future in the VLS.

I think the abolute max displacement would be 6000 ton. Most probably around 5200 tons or so and least at 4500 tons.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 18 Jul 2009 08:19

12 vl-brahmos, + 25 weapons in the torpedo room including perhaps Klub and desi HWT will make for a immense punch. easily able to knock the stuffing out of a small SAG/CBG and escape at high speed.

I can forsee a couple of these waiting in the deep water south of java and bali as a
chinese fleet heaves to over the horizon to go and teach a lesson to yindia. with
a couple more akulas for backup...heh heh.

most of the fleet wont get in range of the nicobari IAF component to attack.

NRao · Post by **NRao** » 18 Jul 2009 08:25

Yup. One of the posters here, (Gagan I think) has it right. The Arihant is really not a "boomer" in the conventional sense

I had just read - in the past few weeks - that the ones right behind this one were much larger - I do not recall for the life of me the details. Which led me to believe that this one is more like a tech-demo of sorts. Much like a trainer AC that can be converted into a "F/A" AC during war - obviously it is more of a serious platform than that, but.

I can forsee a couple of these waiting in the deep water south of java and bali as a chinese fleet heaves to over the horizon to go and teach a lesson to yindia. with a couple more akulas for backup...heh heh.

Chicom will NEVER do that.

They will first arrest a Chinese working in Indian embassy, charge him with drinking too much Indian tea. Give him a suspended death sentence. ...........And, then send a Paki sub to SL to fire something at India.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 18 Jul 2009 08:55

Jin has been making some patrols afair. not yet "global deterrent" patrols deep into
the wastes of the southern hemisphere oceans but surely towards hawaii, aleutian islands and polynesia...close enough to launch a full salvo at khanate.

I believe using a polar shot trajectory and the JL-latest SLBM when fully certified, they
can just launch from the heavily secured waters of the Bo-Hai bay and never leave
chinese territorial waters. except for lack of ice cover , Bo-Hai is the analogue of the
Russia white sea "bastion" for SSBNs.

unfortunately India doesnt have any such easily secured enclosed seas so we cannot
get away with a 2nd rate product even if we wanted to - it needs to be really good to
go out there and defend itself against any underwater threat.

this is where the couple of Akulas will help - they routinely sanitize and secure areas under the artic sea before SSBNs come out and unleash test shots.

Scorpene's can also easily operate in the bay of bengal and south of indonesia
provided we setup a secure Sanya type base in some andaman island by tunneling
beneath a mountain

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 18 Jul 2009 09:00

wrt Rambilli, is it a flat area and to have a conventional 'open' base as in san diego or norfolk or a special hilly area where a Sanya type underground base reachable from sea can be made ?

has anyone visited the place ?

I saw a pic of gigantic underground rock cavern built in Vizag to store pressurized gas for IOC and was getting lurid ideas.

Gagan · Post by **Gagan** » 18 Jul 2009 09:54

Rambilli has a river opening into the bay of bengal, with huge hills on either side right on the sea. Ideal for tunneling, and will provide a natural protection from any attack from the sea. The river channel will need to be dredged though.

Hitesh · Post by **Hitesh** » 18 Jul 2009 10:01

Don't forget that although most of their subs were sitting dockside for many years, the fact that they designed it, tested it, took them out for trials, and even did a tour once means that they still have a leg up on us in terms of knowledge and experience in designing, producing, and operating a nuke sub.

RayC · Post by **RayC** » 18 Jul 2009 10:25

An article that you all may like to read:

Maritime Security Challenges in South Asia and the Indian Ocean:
Response Strategies
By: Cdr. P K Ghosh

A paper prepared for the Center for Strategic and International Studies –
American-Pacific Sealanes Security Institute conference on
Maritime Security in Asia. January 18-20, 2004, Honolulu, Hawaii

Martime Security Indian Ocean

RayC · Post by **RayC** » 18 Jul 2009 10:38

This will also give a perspective.

Strategic Importance of the Indian Ocean US India China Japan Australia Malaysia

Strategic Importance of the Indian Ocean for US

Strategic Importance of the Indian Ocean for India

Strategic Importance of the Indian Ocean for China

Strategic Importance of the Indian Ocean for Japan

Strategic Importance of the Indian Ocean for Australia

Strategic Importance of the Indian Ocean for Malaysia

RayC · Post by **RayC** » 18 Jul 2009 10:45

China's Base Strategy

RayC · Post by **RayC** » 18 Jul 2009 10:46

The above will help the Stratgic discussion and the role the subs play and what it should be armed with.

Raj Malhotra · Post by **Raj Malhotra** » 18 Jul 2009 11:00

It is possible that ATV is 12000 tons submerged displacement with under powered reactor. The 80MW reactor would mean that top speed would be around 20kt which would be adequate for operational purposes as beyond that speed the sub makes too much noise and sonars don't work.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 18 Jul 2009 12:15

man this thread is like a pashtun swayamvar - 100s of tribesmen with jezails firing into the air and talking about the assets and curves of the bride and no sign of the bride emerging from the tent

k prasad · Post by **k prasad** » 18 Jul 2009 15:19

Singha wrote:man this thread is like a pashtun swayamvar - 100s of tribesmen with jezails firing into the air and talking about the assets and curves of the bride and no sign of the bride emerging from the tent

Hehe Singhaji... have u also joined Arun-saar in Khyber Durra now???

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 18 Jul 2009 15:54

just some creative license lads

I will be up @ 5am on 26th June constantly refreshing this page. be one hell of a day methinks.

hope MMS doesnt get the flu and postpone

sum · Post by **sum** » 18 Jul 2009 16:10

Singha wrote:just some creative license lads

I will be up @ 5am on 26th June constantly refreshing this page. be one hell of a day methinks.

hope MMS doesnt get the flu and postpone

Singha sir,
You mean Mrs.MMS since she is the coconut breaker!!!

Dammit, the announcement should have been made on 25th...this waiting is killing.

rakall · Post by **rakall** » 18 Jul 2009 17:58

Singha wrote:just some creative license lads

I will be up @ 5am on 26th June constantly refreshing this page. be one hell of a day methinks.

hope MMS doesnt get the flu and postpone

thats what me was thinking too..

Hope too many "refresh"es dont overload the BR site..

RayC · Post by **RayC** » 18 Jul 2009 18:04

What flu?

Cherie Blair has got swine flu.

Gerard · Post by **Gerard** » 18 Jul 2009 18:09

Hitesh wrote:Don't forget that although most of their subs were sitting dockside for many years, the fact that they designed it, tested it, took them out for trials, and even did a tour once means that they still have a leg up on us in terms of knowledge and experience in designing, producing, and operating a nuke sub.

Yes, but Habib Motors produced a 1 lakh car before Tata. I don't think Tata Nano engineers have anything to learn from the Sitara. Likewise, producing a vessel that irradiates the crew and makes a racket like an old lawnmower may not provide useful operational experience

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 18 Jul 2009 19:19

Hitesh wrote:Don't forget that although most of their subs were sitting dockside for many years, the fact that they designed it, tested it, took them out for trials, and even did a tour once means that they still have a leg up on us in terms of knowledge and experience in designing, producing, and operating a nuke sub.

OK. I have not forgotten that although most of their subs were sitting dockside for many years, the fact that they designed it, tested it, took them out for trials, and even did a tour once means that they still have a leg up on us

Having not forgotten that, and being kindly reminded by you of this despite the lack of amnesia, is there anything else you would like me (or India, or anyone else) to do other than acknowledge your masterful ability to wag a superciliously patronizing finger and put upstart Indian zits in their place?

I remain, as always a willing student.

bhavani · Post by **bhavani** » 18 Jul 2009 19:25

One more brave mujahid, joining with his mizzile in the swayamvar. It would really be great to see a SSBN in Indian colors. That too it is sailing from my home city of vizag. You guys might have already seen the Vizag docks in google maps. It is a very good harbor. Pretty secure i guess. I was recently in vizag and but would never imagine, such a secret sub would be in construction, in my town.

But one question of great mujahid'o, Why are we just leasing the AKula-II. It is a very pretty good boat on par with LA-Improved class of Unkle. Would it not make more sense to just out right buy it.