INS Arihant (ATV) Launch News and Discussion

Gerard
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Re: INS Arihant (ATV) Launch News and Discussion

Postby Gerard » 27 Jul 2009 17:24

India's 'enemy destroyer' sets sail
A 6,000-ton vessel, Arihant will be armed with 12 K-15 missiles, each capable of carrying a five-ton nuclear warhead to a target 750 kilometers away.
:rotfl:

INS Arihant still wrapped in secrecy

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Re: INS Arihant (ATV) Launch News and Discussion

Postby kmkraoind » 27 Jul 2009 17:27

Is it possible to reciprocate berthing facilities with Russia. In which India gets berthing, replenishing, rearming facilitates in any ports of far-eastern Russia, which will make easier for Indian subs to reach and disappear in Chinese sea and Atlantic easily. While giving same type of facilities to Russian Navy in any of South Indian ports.

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Re: INS Arihant (ATV) Launch News and Discussion

Postby caesar » 27 Jul 2009 17:31

[quote="caesar"]
Once again the Russians helped, quietly.They provided equipment for two VM- 5 pressurised water reactors, one of which was assembled and tested at Kalpakkam’s Prototype Testing Centre in 2004.


The VM-5 reactor was the nuclear fission reactor used in a pair to power the Soviet Navy's Project 661 Анчар (Papa) second-generation submarine. It was a pressurized water reactor (PWR) using enriched uranium-235 fuel to produce 177 MWt of power.

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Re: INS Arihant (ATV) Launch News and Discussion

Postby NRao » 27 Jul 2009 17:38

arun wrote:The reaction of the Pakistani Navy:

India’s nuclear submarine to trigger arms race: Pak Navy

Monday, 27 Jul, 2009 | 02:52 PM PST |

KARACHI: Pakistan Navy's spokesman Captain Asif Majeed Butt termed India's nuclear-powered submarine a destabilising step which would jeopardise the security paradigm of the entire Indian Ocean region, DawnNews reported. ……………………….......

Captain Majeed said the induction of the new submarine could trigger a nuclear arms race and all littoral states, including Pakistan, will take safeguarding steps.

Dawn


Do not worry. China IS dusting off some older nuke subs for Pakis.

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Re: INS Arihant (ATV) Launch News and Discussion

Postby Shankar » 27 Jul 2009 17:54

Once again the Russians helped, quietly.They provided equipment for two VM- 5 pressurised water reactors, one of which was assembled and tested at Kalpakkam’s Prototype Testing Centre in 2004.


The VM-5 reactor was the nuclear fission reactor used in a pair to power the Soviet Navy's Project 661 Анчар (Papa) second-generation submarine. It was a pressurized water reactor (PWR) using enriched uranium-235 fuel to produce 177 MWt of power.


-shankarosky once again very very happy one more confirmation on the projected specs and one more step towards Mig 35 coming to pune

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Re: INS Arihant (ATV) Launch News and Discussion

Postby aditp » 27 Jul 2009 17:55

NRao wrote:Do not worry. China IS dusting off some older nuke subs for Pakis.


NICE. Gives us an easier way of studying the noise signature of Chinki Boats (Fattas).

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Re: INS Arihant (ATV) Launch News and Discussion

Postby Shankar » 27 Jul 2009 17:55

ok650 is the core of vm5 reactor which powers the akula 2

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Re: INS Arihant (ATV) Launch News and Discussion

Postby Shankar » 27 Jul 2009 17:57

Do not worry. China IS dusting off some older nuke subs for Pakis.

with akula 2 in water those boats will be lucky to survive 24 hours in water -let them give many -take the money and we shall make sure china get more business quickly and repeat business after that

it is like flying a F-86 against A su-30 there can be but one outcome -a quick trip to paradise

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Re: INS Arihant (ATV) Launch News and Discussion

Postby Austin » 27 Jul 2009 18:10

With a F-86 versus Su-30 its some guarantee , with a submarine there is no guarantee , an assured kill cannot be taken for granted.

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Re: INS Arihant (ATV) Launch News and Discussion

Postby abhiti » 27 Jul 2009 18:12

Arun_S wrote:
rohiths wrote:Using simple physics and approximating that the sub is a cylinder with length of 112 m and radius of atleast 5m and the fact that a submarine should stay submerged we get a displacement of 3.14*112*25 tons which is 8792 tons.(density of water =1ton per cubic metre) :D
The lower bound for sub's displacement is 8000 tons (provided it is 112m long) :twisted:


based on current information:
    length: 110 m
    Diameter: 11 m
    Surface displacement: 6,000 tonne
    Power: 85 MWthermal

My calculations indicate the following:
True displacement: ~6,800 tonne
Max speed: 25 Knots
Surface speed: 13 Knots

The 11 m dia indicate that it can only take a 2 m dia missile with 1.5 stages. So the reports of 3,500 km range of K-X is correct. The key unknown parameter for K-X is what is the payload for which the range is 3,500 km. My calcs show it is for ~1,100 kg payload.


http://www.naval-technology.com/projects/nssn/

NSSN Virginia Class Attack Submarine, USA

Key Data:Crew 134
Dimensions:Length 377ft
Beam 34ft
Displacement, Submerged 7,800t
Performance:Speed (Dived) Over 25kt
Diving Depth 800ft
Weapon Systems:Cruise Missiles 12 x vertical launch systems, tubes for Tomahawk SLCM
Anti-ship Missile Sub Harpoon Torpedo Tubes 4 x 21 in Torpedoes Mk 48 ADCAP (advanced capability)
Mines Mk 60 CAPTOR
Propulsion:Engine1 x GE PWR S9G
Power 29.84MW (40,000hp)
Last edited by abhiti on 27 Jul 2009 18:13, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: INS Arihant (ATV) Launch News and Discussion

Postby NRao » 27 Jul 2009 18:12

caesar and others,

Kindly place the original URLs before quoting the article AND please place any content from the article/s in proper quotes.

Thx.

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Re: INS Arihant (ATV) Launch News and Discussion

Postby KrishG » 27 Jul 2009 18:32

Like all cunning Yindoos, I have thought of cunning idea to try to model INS Arihant! :twisted: :twisted: Take a look and give some feedbacks! :wink:

NOTE:1) I have based the design on Akula-2 and Sandeep Unninathan's India Today article image!
2)Until now, I have only worked on the basic hull design and will have to do the things that make it more realistic! I wanted some inputs

Image
Image

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Re: INS Arihant (ATV) Launch News and Discussion

Postby gogna » 27 Jul 2009 18:38

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_o_no4M2xEPY/S ... Bflyer.jpg

From shiv Aroor drawing , he was present at the launch. So his drawing will be the closest we will get to the real thing.

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Re: INS Arihant (ATV) Launch News and Discussion

Postby asbchakri » 27 Jul 2009 18:42

Shankar wrote:Do not worry. China IS dusting off some older nuke subs for Pakis.

with akula 2 in water those boats will be lucky to survive 24 hours in water -let them give many -take the money and we shall make sure china get more business quickly and repeat business after that

it is like flying a F-86 against A su-30 there can be but one outcome -a quick trip to paradise



I think they have decommissioned a Han class sub in 2000(?) , maybe they will give them that. :lol: :lol:

http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/world/china/type-91.htm

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Re: INS Arihant (ATV) Launch News and Discussion

Postby negi » 27 Jul 2009 18:48

Aroor's sketch is as good as the one from a KG kid , he took a 15cm scale drew two parallel lines then used a protractor for the forward section and finally tapered the aft with a cone ; and look at the rudder looks like some missile's winglets.

here http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_o_no4M2xEPY/S ... 764137.jpg

KrishG fwiw the coning tower on INS Arihant should be further ahead of what it is in Akula as the VL tubes most probably are behind the sail, also due to such an arrangement the diving planes might have to be mounted on the sail itself .
Last edited by negi on 27 Jul 2009 18:54, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: INS Arihant (ATV) Launch News and Discussion

Postby Singha » 27 Jul 2009 18:52

its best to model based on shiv aroor drawing.

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Re: INS Arihant (ATV) Launch News and Discussion

Postby Gagan » 27 Jul 2009 19:00

Shiv Aroor is no artist we now know.
But assuming he got the shape right, we are looking at a boat that looks more like a scorpene or one of the american subs as far as the sail design is concerned. Shiv doesn't show any angulation of the sail at all. The hump containing the VLS system is inadequately shown.

Some how I get the feeling that this might look like the old russian yankee class boat. The description is uncanny.

Yankee Class
Picture 1
Picture 2
Last edited by Gagan on 27 Jul 2009 19:02, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: INS Arihant (ATV) Launch News and Discussion

Postby bart » 27 Jul 2009 19:01

Aroor's drawing might turn out to be accurate in the end, however his methods at arriving at the precise shape and form probably involves a good deal of googling and guesswork. The guy was present at the launch but there is no way he would have got a look at the underwater portion, or for that matter a birds-eye look at it from a distance etc. Even for a normal well-known submarine its hard to have the full range of views from different angles, and that too at a function bristling with VVIPs and high security. For example a good look at a submarine from where you could get the type of sketch that he has drawn, within the timeframe that he had to look at it, and with any level of accuracy would be something like the Astute class laid out something like the below:

http://www.royalnavy.mod.uk/upload/img/astute4.jpg

Other than that he (and others) would have seen bits and pieces of it and any descriptions at the moment are as credible as the blind men of Indostan describing the yelliphant.

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Re: INS Arihant (ATV) Launch News and Discussion

Postby Amitabh » 27 Jul 2009 19:03

Gagan wrote:Shiv Aroor is no artist we now know.
But assuming he got the shape right, we are looking at a boat that looks more like a scorpene or one of the american subs as far as the sail design is concerned. Shiv doesn't show any angulation of the sail at all. The hump containing the VLS system is inadequately shown.

Some how I get the feeling that this might look like the old russian yankee class boat. The description is uncanny.

Yankee Class
Picture 1
Picture 2

Damn you beat me to it! To my eye the outline most resembles the Yankee I/II class (Navaga) or Delta I/II class (Murena). Intuitively I would expect the Russians to share their earlier designs with India rather than a top-of-the-line SSBN. But we will find out over time.

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Re: INS Arihant (ATV) Launch News and Discussion

Postby Kanson » 27 Jul 2009 19:03

Kersi D wrote:WAHT DO YOU CALL INS ARIHANT ?

SSBM ? SSGN ? SSN ?

I think INS ARIHANT is perhaps the first submarine in the world to be a combination of SSBN AND SSGN.

Looks like we all have to create a new designation. SSGBN or SSBGN !!

K

I'm expecting her as a multipurpose vehicle. Contrary to what be shown as cutaway pics by media, I'm expecting her have facilities for inserion of commandos and this SSBN designation it caries only for time being. Appropiate designation would be SSSMN. M for multipurpose.

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Re: INS Arihant (ATV) Launch News and Discussion

Postby Gagan » 27 Jul 2009 19:04

KrishG, that is beautiful. What software do you use?

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Re: INS Arihant (ATV) Launch News and Discussion

Postby Javee » 27 Jul 2009 19:06

Is it the actual sub behind MMS or something else?

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_o_no4M2xEPY/S ... 787895.JPG

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Re: INS Arihant (ATV) Launch News and Discussion

Postby Gagan » 27 Jul 2009 19:08

That is the actual sub. Looks like the sloping tail section to me, or the slope of the VLS system.

But I am wondering about the slope. Part of it is due to the angle at which the picture has been taken, but part of it is on the sub. No drawing shows this accurately.

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Re: INS Arihant (ATV) Launch News and Discussion

Postby Kanson » 27 Jul 2009 19:09

Gagan wrote:Shiv Aroor is no artist we now know.
But assuming he got the shape right, we are looking at a boat that looks more like a scorpene or one of the american subs as far as the sail design is concerned. Shiv doesn't show any angulation of the sail at all. The hump containing the VLS system is inadequately shown.

Some how I get the feeling that this might look like the old russian yankee class boat. The description is uncanny.

Yankee Class
Picture 1
Picture 2


If I can add, he just obfuscated the drawing. Borei has a streamline design for the hump and line drawing by Aroor shows its starting just after the conning tower. And he started caliming that to be Borei class. Either line drawing is wrong or his description is wrong.

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Re: INS Arihant (ATV) Launch News and Discussion

Postby Javee » 27 Jul 2009 19:15

oooh, we got a competitor, I guess the begging begins now,

The government will have to decide about Pakistan making its own nuclear submarine though the Navy is fully prepared to implement any decision taken by the government, the spokesman said.
http://www.hindu.com/thehindu/holnus/00 ... 271812.htm

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Re: INS Arihant (ATV) Launch News and Discussion

Postby krishnan » 27 Jul 2009 19:16

Someones pants have all soiled up.

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Re: INS Arihant (ATV) Launch News and Discussion

Postby Singha » 27 Jul 2009 19:18

similar problems produce similar solns. just because a sub looks like A,B,C doesnt mean its ==A/B/C.

except for typhoon class, almost all SSBN carry their missile tubes aft of the sail . the need to accomodate long missiles drives the extent
of humpishness. other than that, the sail shape (akula vs conventional), presence or absense of visible towed sonar pod, vertical or cruciform tailfins and hydroplanes on the sail or hull are common external features to all subs.

one could well claim Arihant = 688I + small hump if looks were all that mattered.

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Re: INS Arihant (ATV) Launch News and Discussion

Postby NRao » 27 Jul 2009 19:18

Gagan wrote:Shiv Aroor is no artist we now know.
But assuming he got the shape right, we are looking at a boat that looks more like a scorpene or one of the american subs as far as the sail design is concerned. Shiv doesn't show any angulation of the sail at all. The hump containing the VLS system is inadequately shown.



Singha wrote:comment on Shiv aroor's blog:

4:12 PM
Anonymous said...

Mr Aroor, if you have made this drawing yourself, then i must congratulate you. It is very true to the real design. It was a pleasure to meet all of you yesterday. Hope the govt can allow you to come again for the Arihant HAT phase to observe the same. Best of luck.

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Re: INS Arihant (ATV) Launch News and Discussion

Postby shiv » 27 Jul 2009 19:20

Could some kind person please post some links to information on Chinkodesha's nuke sub program?

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Re: INS Arihant (ATV) Launch News and Discussion

Postby negi » 27 Jul 2009 19:24

My point is Aroor's drawing is too generic , infact to be honest at that level of detail all the submarines will look the same i.e. a cylinder with a hemisphere at one end and cone at other with a rectangular block on top and winglets on the tail . And all the SSBN's have a slight hump on the spine some have a more abruptly shaped (Jin )one while others a more gradual (Ohio, Borei) .Aroor's drawing shows a small patch just aft of the sail going by the details of the drawing one cant tell nothing except for the fact that the VL tubes are aft of the sail and diving planes are mounted on the coning tower.

The Akula like hump for a Arihant class sub is unlikely ; as the sail will have to be moved forward due to VL tubes due to which the diving planes will have to be mounted on the sail , so we are talking about extra moving parts within the Sail .
Last edited by negi on 27 Jul 2009 19:26, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: INS Arihant (ATV) Launch News and Discussion

Postby Gagan » 27 Jul 2009 19:25

shiv wrote:Could some kind person please post some links to information on Chinkodesha's nuke sub program?

Sinodefence
Wikipedia

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Re: INS Arihant (ATV) Launch News and Discussion

Postby Kanson » 27 Jul 2009 19:28

comment on Shiv aroor's blog:

4:12 PM
Anonymous said...

Mr Aroor, if you have made this drawing yourself, then i must congratulate you. It is very true to the real design. It was a pleasure to meet all of you yesterday. Hope the govt can allow you to come again for the Arihant HAT phase to observe the same. Best of luck.
Sorry, i couldnt agree with that. Seems like he himself patted his back.

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Re: INS Arihant (ATV) Launch News and Discussion

Postby Ranvijay » 27 Jul 2009 19:30

Some useful info on Chicom SSBN's here - http://geimint.blogspot.com/2007/10/chi ... fleet.html

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Re: INS Arihant (ATV) Launch News and Discussion

Postby Amitabh » 27 Jul 2009 19:31

Singha wrote:similar problems produce similar solns. just because a sub looks like A,B,C doesnt mean its ==A/B/C.

except for typhoon class, almost all SSBN carry their missile tubes aft of the sail . the need to accomodate long missiles drives the extent
of humpishness. other than that, the sail shape (akula vs conventional), presence or absense of visible towed sonar pod, vertical or cruciform tailfins and hydroplanes on the sail or hull are common external features to all subs.

one could well claim Arihant = 688I + small hump if looks were all that mattered.

Thanks, but since we know that the US did not provide consultancy to the ATV project we can use logic to rule that out. We know however that the Russians did, that they are said to have earlier supplied drawings of the Charlie class and that according to a report based on an interview with the ATV project director 60% of INS Arihant is of foreign (presumably mostly Russian) origin.

Hence saying that Arihant = 688I + hump would be wild speculation, while suggesting a connection to the Yankee or Delta classes would be informed speculation. And this thread is all about speculation.

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Re: INS Arihant (ATV) Launch News and Discussion

Postby mandrake » 27 Jul 2009 19:34

It seems to me very amusing that some people here are more interested to discuss the russian help for this, not where they helped but the joy that they helped. When it is clearly mentioned in official interviews that they were consultants, which is natural in a project of this scale. Some also knew the percentage of russian input....what a joke. I'm sure more than the design it would be prudent to take consultancy in safety systems where experience matters rather than theoritical simulations. This comparing of this sub with how it looks with other designs and the feel good factor associated with it as soon as it resembles with some russian or yankee modern designs is amusing as well. ah the great psyche.....
Last edited by mandrake on 27 Jul 2009 19:37, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: INS Arihant (ATV) Launch News and Discussion

Postby Javee » 27 Jul 2009 19:34

I dont think Shiv Aroor will draw the exact picture of Arihant. There is a reason why GoI is guarding it and Shiv will not risk his career for this, so I will take his drwg with a bag of salt.

I know all of us want to see it, but we can only see it when they want us to see, until then we can draw a starship and call it Arihant 8)

just my 2 cents.

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Re: INS Arihant (ATV) Launch News and Discussion

Postby NRao » 27 Jul 2009 19:35

Kanson wrote:
comment on Shiv aroor's blog:

4:12 PM
Anonymous said...

Mr Aroor, if you have made this drawing yourself, then i must congratulate you. It is very true to the real design. It was a pleasure to meet all of you yesterday. Hope the govt can allow you to come again for the Arihant HAT phase to observe the same. Best of luck.
Sorry, i couldnt agree with that. Seems like he himself patted his back.


Sure, that is one aspect I did not think of.

But that is what we do on BR too? Until the real picture comes out we will do the same.

At least he was there.

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Re: INS Arihant (ATV) Launch News and Discussion

Postby Singha » 27 Jul 2009 19:37

it doesnt look at all like the delta class. yankee is an ancient design.

and hull shape isnt all about saying A == B ? a yankee class stuffed with
akula gear != yankee. what can you speculate about the interior fitment
with not a shred of any detail?

I would like to think yindu is more intelligent than to build a 1950s era design and cross their fingers.

admins should lock this thread. no useful purpose other than time-pass is
being served at present. maybe a news thread for just posting news is what we need now.

the party is over.

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Re: INS Arihant (ATV) Launch News and Discussion

Postby Javee » 27 Jul 2009 19:38

U.S. submarines through 1945- By Norman Friedman

Pretty good illustrated designs, ofcourse its just half a century old, nevertheless, it's a good primer.
http://books.google.com/books?id=7qztw0sO2NgC&pg

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Re: INS Arihant (ATV) Launch News and Discussion

Postby mandrake » 27 Jul 2009 19:40

admins should lock this thread. no useful purpose other than time-pass is
being served at present. maybe a news thread for just posting news is what we need now.

the party is over.

Second it.


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