INS Arihant (ATV) Launch News and Discussion

dinesha
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Re: INS Arihant (ATV) Launch News and Discussion

Postby dinesha » 27 Jul 2009 19:49

more details..
S3, S4 under fabrication
Atleast 5 SSBNs..

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_o_no4M2xEPY/S ... 774434.jpg

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Re: INS Arihant (ATV) Launch News and Discussion

Postby Kanson » 27 Jul 2009 19:51

NRao wrote: At least he was there.

Thats the problem isnt it?

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Re: INS Arihant (ATV) Launch News and Discussion

Postby krishnan » 27 Jul 2009 19:58

If S2 is the recently launched, S3 and S4 are the second and third, then what is or was S1?

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Re: INS Arihant (ATV) Launch News and Discussion

Postby Philip » 27 Jul 2009 20:01

If one has to analyse the key features of the sub and look for comparisons with Russian designs,it would be first reactor design.We know that Russia has helped us enormously in this,so which subs in the past had similar sized reactors ? Secondly,the design of the missile silos are new,resembling later models of Russian designs,even US subs,where a large silo carries several smaller missiles.Thirdly,the bow shape and location of the torpedo compartment ,number and size of tubes,indicating the size and shape of the bow sonar-spherical or cylindrical and the type of weaponry that can be carried in the torpedo compartment.If larger tubes than the std. 533mm tubes exist,then LR cruise missile with N-warheads can also be carried as on Israeli Dophin conventional U-boats which have two sizes of tubes.Fourth,the shape of the sail,as an above post said resembles earlier model Soviet boomers which had missile silos abaft the sail.If the sail resembles that of an Akula,then one can assume that it has a considerable underwater speed,but from latest news,is less inclined and more vertical,therefore with lesser speed than the Akula class which would fit in if the official reactor size/power is correct and because stealth is more vital than speed for an SSBN.Lastly,the tail,cruciform mot likely,with or without the towed array sonar as on the Akulas and the design of the screw.

Inside,one cannot speculate at all, other than logically it should if 60% of the eqpt. is of Russian origin,have many similarities with the arriving Akula which will also train crews for the ATV class.So let's wait for more wews and pics when they arrive.At least reports from sensor "eyeball MK1 " of those present at the show should give us a better picture!

PS:Intl. reaction.
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/w ... 728839.ece

India launches the Arihant, its first homegrown nuclear submarine
Jeremy Page in Delhi

Pakistan warned today of a new nuclear arms race after India launched its first homegrown nuclear submarine, joining only five other countries that have developed such vessels.

Salman Ali, a spokesman for Pakistan’s navy, said that yesterday’s launch of the 6,000-tonne Arihant or “Destroyer of Enemies” could destabilise the entire Indian Ocean region.

The Arihant is the first of five planned submarines that are designed to give India the capability to launch nuclear missiles from the sea, as well as from land and air.

It is part of a multibillion-pound programme to modernise India’s armed forces, in large part to try to catch up with China — the dominant Asian military power, which already has at least 10 nuclear submarines.

But it also gives India a strategic advantage over Pakistan, its traditional enemy, with whom it has fought three wars since the two countries won independence from Britain in 1947.

Manmohan Singh, India’s Prime Minister, hailed a “historic milestone in the country’s defence preparedness” at a ceremony marking the submarine’s launch in the southern port city of Vishakhapatnam.

“The sea is increasingly becoming relevant in the context of India’s security interests and we must re-adjust our military preparedness to this changing environment,” he said.

“We do not have any aggressive designs nor do we seek to threaten anyone ... Nevertheless, it is incumbent upon us to take all measures necessary to safeguard our country and to keep pace with technological advancements worldwide.”

India currently has 16 diesel-electric submarines of Soviet and German origin, which are all 25-40 years old, according to defence officials. Pakistan has 11 diesel-electric submarines.

India and Pakistan conducted tit-for-tat nuclear tests in 1998 and both countries have since developed ways to fire nuclear weapons from aircraft and land vehicles. Until yesterday, however, neither had a platform from which to fire one at sea.

That capability is especially important for India as its “no first strike” policy means that it needs to be able to respond to a nuclear attack that could destroy its nuclear sites on land.

India launched a secret programme to develop nuclear submarines in the 1970s, but met a series of technical obstacles and has relied heavily on assistance from the Soviet Union and Russia ever since.

It leased Charlie-class nuclear submarines from Moscow between 1988 and 1991 and has agreed to lease another from Russia for 10 years, starting later this year or early next.

But it has now finally joined the exclusive club of countries that can build their own nuclear submarines, alongside the United States, Russia, China, Britain and France, the five permanent members of the UN Security Council.

The Arihant is only about half the size of the other five countries’ nuclear submarines, at 112 metres long and 11 metres wide, and can carry a crew of 95 as well as up to 12 Indian K-15 ballistic missiles, which have a range of 440 miles.

However, the K-15s will eventually be replaced with K-X missiles, which have a range of 2,190 miles. The submarine is powered by an 85-megawatt nuclear reactor, and can reach 44 kph (24 knots) underwater.

Defence officials say that it will undergo two years of sea trials in the Bay of Bengal before being commissioned for full service, but analysts say that the trials could take three to five years
Last edited by Philip on 27 Jul 2009 20:12, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: INS Arihant (ATV) Launch News and Discussion

Postby gogna » 27 Jul 2009 20:10

I am hugely disappointed by the K-15 700k range,ATV project is underway for at least two decades and in that time they could only come up with 700k range, only god know how many decades before we get anything closer to the chinese jl-2 8000k range.

http://www.globalsecurity.org/wmd/world/china/slbm.htm

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Re: INS Arihant (ATV) Launch News and Discussion

Postby NRao » 27 Jul 2009 20:10

Kanson wrote:
NRao wrote: At least he was there.

Thats the problem isnt it?



I guess I do not get what you are saying. So, let it slide.

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Re: INS Arihant (ATV) Launch News and Discussion

Postby bart » 27 Jul 2009 20:23

since all sorts of experts are describing with great accuracy the submarine they have never seen and which 'Russian design it is xeroxed from' here is my 2 cents. It does have an uncanny resemblance to the 'Finding Nemo' sub below:
Image
It is a fairly recent design too, not much older than the movie. :mrgreen:

Adminullahs, Lock this thread please....nothing more of substance to be observed or discussed here. Its slowly turning into a bunch of idle speculation with no real facts on the submarine being apparent, interspersed with the odd whine about something or the other, like how the missile range is too short/how much 'plogless' the Chinese have made/ how much better the Brits are at leaching stuff of the Americans than we are at copying Russian tech etc :evil:

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Re: INS Arihant (ATV) Launch News and Discussion

Postby Gagan » 27 Jul 2009 20:32

Lock this thread and the whine team will make a bee line for the Sharm-el-sheikh thread. There is still some juice remaining in that topic. I haven't dared to venture into the EULA thread or the EVM thread, but I understand that the technical nature of the whines there deters the aam junta from venturing there,
Administrators can clean this thread every two days or so.
Narayanan-ji, your design seems to show 8 VLS cells, and a modern optoelectronic periscope. :eek:

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Re: INS Arihant (ATV) Launch News and Discussion

Postby Singha » 27 Jul 2009 20:37

I submit the Shang class 093 is the closest current vessel akin to Arihant class. which may not be surprising because Rubin design bureau assisted them. Pls take a look and compare to Shiv's drawing

http://www.sinodefence.com/navy/sub/ima ... 2large.jpg

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Re: INS Arihant (ATV) Launch News and Discussion

Postby asbchakri » 27 Jul 2009 20:40

Gagan wrote:Lock this thread and the whine team will make a bee line for the Sharm-el-sheikh thread. There is still some juice remaining in that topic. I haven't dared to venture into the EULA thread or the EVM thread, but I understand that the technical nature of the whines there deters the aam junta from venturing there,
Administrators can clean this thread every two days or so.
Narayanan-ji, your design seems to show 8 VLS cells, and a modern optoelectronic periscope. :eek:


Man they r not VLS but SLS . Also if u see closely they have 2 more on their rear side, in typical paki ishtyle :twisted: :twisted:
:mrgreen: :rotfl: :rotfl:

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Re: INS Arihant (ATV) Launch News and Discussion

Postby tsarkar » 27 Jul 2009 20:47

S1 was a previous attempt that was scrapped midway.

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Re: INS Arihant (ATV) Launch News and Discussion

Postby Cybaru » 27 Jul 2009 20:50

tsarkar wrote:S1 was a previous attempt that was scrapped midway.


How come ?

Gagan
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Re: INS Arihant (ATV) Launch News and Discussion

Postby Gagan » 27 Jul 2009 20:55

According to Kesri D. L&T constructed a land based version of the ATV hull. Maybe that was the S1.


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Re: INS Arihant (ATV) Launch News and Discussion

Postby svinayak » 27 Jul 2009 21:03

bart wrote:since all sorts of experts are describing with great accuracy the submarine they have never seen and which 'Russian design it is xeroxed from' here is my 2 cents. It does have an uncanny resemblance to the 'Finding Nemo' sub below:
Image

Recently went on this.
Not bad they have entire Fidning Nemo inside the water and can be seen from under the water. Good Submarine with rows of seat and even some young teenagers smooching in the middle of the sea voyage.

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Re: INS Arihant (ATV) Launch News and Discussion

Postby babbupandey » 27 Jul 2009 21:04

gogna wrote:I am hugely disappointed by the K-15 700k range,ATV project is underway for at least two decades and in that time they could only come up with 700k range, only god know how many decades before we get anything closer to the chinese jl-2 8000k range.


There's an old joke, that USA does not need to worry about taking backups of their defence technology documents, everything is already safely backed-up in China. Only if Indians were as adept at taking such "back-up"... :rotfl:
Regarding the range, we already know how easily range can be altered by varying warhead weights (go through the missiles page). I am really not worried about missiles and their range - I am sure by the time it is on verge of being handed over to navy for operations we'll have Agni-3SL :twisted:

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Re: INS Arihant (ATV) Launch News and Discussion

Postby enqyoob » 27 Jul 2009 21:55

Log:

8000 km range is ICBM, which says that you are threatening the whole duniya. That is China's world-bully posture.

700 km range says that your threats are in your neighborhood. That is India's defence posture.
at most India may have to put a few of these in the South China Sea, no further than that.

700 km range is presumably enough to hit most of TSP from the Arabian sea.

BTW, the US Senator who said US needs F-22s to defend against the threat from "Iran, North Korea and India" has apologized and clarified that he meant to say: "Iran, North Korea and China"

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Re: INS Arihant (ATV) Launch News and Discussion

Postby rsingh » 27 Jul 2009 21:56

Baaah missed all grama-garmi. Was on cruise ship in Luxor. It was last day of holiday and they had belly-dancers on bridge. Spent running up-down to check news on Egyptian tv. Those kaffir Abduls do not care about anything other then camel breeding. No Internet no newspaper. So no bellydancers and no good news. Just landed in Brussulabad and logged on BR..................20 pages and no juice. It is like groom is jealous about beauty and assets of bride and is busy dispersing gun firing Pastuns....................as mentioned by Singha Saar earlier. :(( :(( :(( :((

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Re: INS Arihant (ATV) Launch News and Discussion

Postby Arun_S » 27 Jul 2009 21:57

rakall wrote:The next big ponderable is what will be "K-X"?

- the SLBM variant of A3 with a (official) range of 3500km or that of A5 with (offcial) range of 5000km -- is likely to be for the next line of SSBN's with the 8000cr price tag (Even A3-SL from BR missile is 12.2m.. A5-SL likely higher)
- probably the A3-SL or A5-SL will first be tested as a single warhead config (with long conical nosecone) and then only with MIRV config (with rounded nosecone) - the MIRV version of SLBM is atleast 5years away from first test.

considering that...

- K-X will most likely be a beefed up version Shourya?
With a larger diameter & a single Mk6 warhead for the 3 Arihant-class vessels... Until the >5000km Agni-3/5 SLBM with MIRV comes on board for the 2nd line of SSBN's!!!

or what are the chances that K-X will be Agni based? May be the name itself is an indication that K-X is likely to differ from Agni designs?

Sagarika can't cant be scaled up for 3,500 km range. There is simply not enough fuel in that form factor.

For a submarine launched missile length is teh primary constrain, thus to fit certain amount of fuel per stage the missile has to grow fat. Agni-3SL confign is amongst the most optimum fit for long range missile that can carry enough "Tandav".

Of course if one can fit a longer missile in a submarine, the missile performance will be better.

To understand the Indian dilemma here is a informative graph.
One can see that all this billions of dollar investment in ATV/Arihant come to a naught lacking a credible TN warhead.

Image


The warheads in the graph above are:

Image ..click

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Re: INS Arihant (ATV) Launch News and Discussion

Postby mandrake » 27 Jul 2009 22:01

BEL has supplied the entire control system for the sub, it was in their annual report. Mods need to do a little bit cleanup to this thread off russian/yankee/french fanboism if they wishes to, to keep the discussion substantial! JMT! IMHO!

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Re: INS Arihant (ATV) Launch News and Discussion

Postby Singha » 27 Jul 2009 22:08

the situation does not look pessimistic to me. even with FBF warhead the
A3SL is capable of putting 900kg of payload onto any part of PRC from deep
in the wastes of the southern IOR. the A2 with 6000km shot can takedown
anything of value in PRC.

sure , putting a higher yield warhead on CEP is always more scary, but I am sure any sane Govt would be scared of FBF too.

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Re: INS Arihant (ATV) Launch News and Discussion

Postby rakall » 27 Jul 2009 23:05

Singha wrote:the situation does not look pessimistic to me. even with FBF warhead the
A3SL is capable of putting 900kg of payload onto any part of PRC from deep
in the wastes of the southern IOR. the A2 with 6000km shot can takedown
anything of value in PRC.

sure , putting a higher yield warhead on CEP is always more scary, but I am sure any sane Govt would be scared of FBF too.



But the point is A3SL in 2stage form or A2 cannot fit into Arihant..

What will be the range of A3SL -- with a single stage (the 6.6m long stage) and the warhead stage? What about the booster stage needed to pushe it out of water in this config -- or can that be completely handled by gas-generator system? Is it even feasible in terms of L/D ratio/ form factor to have a single stage A3-SL (with thr 6.6m stage and warhead stage)?

If not - the 3 Arihant-class vessels will have to be limited to K-15 rounds !!! And wait till the larger SSBN rolls out to carry A3-SL or A5-SL with MIRV.

Arun... Is there a possible configuration of Shourya/Sagarika -- with a larger diameter (say upto 2m), with a single Mk6 warhead to be a longer range SLBM for Arihant-class ? (pardon me, despite the large hint in your previous reply - I am asking this again... second thoughts?)

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Re: INS Arihant (ATV) Launch News and Discussion

Postby AdityaM » 27 Jul 2009 23:19

Can someone please leak to the DDM that Arihant comes equipped with a hellipad.
Cant wait for the fun to begin.

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Re: INS Arihant (ATV) Launch News and Discussion

Postby Kersi D » 27 Jul 2009 23:29

Gagan wrote:According to Kesri D. L&T constructed a land based version of the ATV hull. Maybe that was the S1.


I am thinking on the same lines. The "ATV" that L&T built in early 1990s was NOT meant to go to sea

K

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Re: INS Arihant (ATV) Launch News and Discussion

Postby Arun_S » 27 Jul 2009 23:37

rakall wrote:But the point is A3SL in 2stage form or A2 cannot fit into Arihant..

What will be the range of A3SL -- with a single stage (the 6.6m long stage) and the warhead stage? What about the booster stage needed to pushe it out of water in this config -- or can that be completely handled by gas-generator system? Is it even feasible in terms of L/D ratio/ form factor to have a single stage A3-SL (with thr 6.6m stage and warhead stage)?

In my earlier posts few pages back, I mentioned a shorter 1.5 stage Agni-3SL consisting of the booster stage(A3FS(S26)), no second stage, and the payload section containing the warhead as well as the A3SUM(Small upper motor with 1.2 tonne fuel). That confign will easily fit into Arihant and deliver ~1100 kg MIRV fist across 3,500 km.

If not - the 3 Arihant-class vessels will have to be limited to K-15 rounds !!! And wait till the larger SSBN rolls out to carry A3-SL or A5-SL with MIRV.

Arun... Is there a possible configuration of Shourya/Sagarika -- with a larger diameter (say upto 2m), with a single Mk6 warhead to be a longer range SLBM for Arihant-class ? (pardon me, despite the large hint in your previous reply - I am asking this again... second thoughts?)

Change Sagarika missile from 0.74m diameter to 2.0 m diameter make it a Agni. Call that Agni as K-X no problem, Calling that Agni as Sagarika is rather jarring to me. But again as someone said a Rose is a Rose, call it by whatever name.

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Re: INS Arihant (ATV) Launch News and Discussion

Postby Kersi D » 27 Jul 2009 23:37

AdityaM wrote:Can someone please leak to the DDM that Arihant comes equipped with a hellipad.
Cant wait for the fun to begin.


Yes. And it comes with 16 F/A 18SL multipurpose combat aircraft. Two aircraft can be launched and recovered simultaneously, upto a depth of 300 m.

And soon Pakistan will soon have a China - Korea "inspired" nucler submarine that can carry 20 F/A 16SL multipurpose combat aircraft. Four aircraft can be launched and recovered simultaneously, upto a depth of 500 m.

Regards
K

SL = Submarine launched


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