INS Arihant (ATV) News and Discussion -2

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Re: INS Arihant (ATV) News and Discussion -2

Postby Austin » 27 Jun 2012 10:08

The Russian B-90 Sarov experimental submarine reportedly uses Nuclear Auxilary Powerplant of Teakettle type making it into hybrid propulsion.

http://militaryrussia.ru/blog/topic-216.html

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Re: INS Arihant (ATV) News and Discussion -2

Postby hnair » 27 Jun 2012 10:29

All the cooling pumps et al will still produce same amount of clamour. The only way to silence all this and (maybe) maintain lesser shielding is to use thermo-electric route. Might be silent and maintenance free (they are still working in 70's Voyager crafts in inter-stellar space) but the energy density is not enough to push a sub through water.

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Re: INS Arihant (ATV) News and Discussion -2

Postby darshand » 27 Jun 2012 13:45

hnair wrote:All the cooling pumps et al will still produce same amount of clamour. The only way to silence all this and (maybe) maintain lesser shielding is to use thermo-electric route. Might be silent and maintenance free (they are still working in 70's Voyager crafts in inter-stellar space) but the energy density is not enough to push a sub through water.


The Rubis class uses its reactor to generate electricity which drives the motors. Though the cooling pumps issue remains, the main reduction in noise levels is because of the elimination of the reduction gearbox needed by other submarines to couple the output directly to the propellor shaft.

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Re: INS Arihant (ATV) News and Discussion -2

Postby Singha » 27 Jun 2012 14:08

it would seem powerful motors do exist ... I dont know if a single one of these rated for around 30MW would be sufficient though and if the size will fit
http://www04.abb.com/global/seitp/seitp ... podNew.pdf

US is going electric drive for its future subs. seems in conventional reactor + steam plant, 85% of power can only be used for propulsion and rest 15% for eqpt and this mix cannot be altered. electric drive means this ratio can be changed on the fly.

The Navy and industry have concluded that electric drive will be a necessary, but not sufficient, condition for retaining stealth margins (i.e., standoff and counterdetection) into the far future. This assumes potential adversaries will possess sensor and processor technology in the 2015 timeframe, which is similar to that which the US is developing now. Furthermore, electric drive provides the opportunity to use all (rather than only about 15 percent) of the useful reactor power for a wide range of high power, high energy, and high endurance payloads, which the future will bring. Today, some 85 percent of the design reactor power can only be used for propulsion. Other benefits include the flexibility that electric drive brings to naval architecture (eliminate the tyranny of the shaft through external motors), on-the-fly reapportionment of power to deal with casualties, battle damage, or countermeasures (for high-speed incoming weapons), and technology growth potential in related technologies.

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Re: INS Arihant (ATV) News and Discussion -2

Postby Cybaru » 27 Jun 2012 19:46

Austin wrote:The Russian B-90 Sarov experimental submarine reportedly uses Nuclear Auxilary Powerplant of Teakettle type making it into hybrid propulsion.

http://militaryrussia.ru/blog/topic-216.html


Do you have a idea of how much things puts out ? Seems very interesting. Best way to go AIP at the moment.

Although nuclear batteries putting out 150KW-1MW would be a much better option.

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Re: INS Arihant (ATV) News and Discussion -2

Postby Austin » 27 Jun 2012 22:56

No information on Sarov in official capacity is forthcoming as its classified project.

But in late 80's they tested RTG type 600 kW VAU-6 auxiliary nuclear powerplant on a experimental submarine which achieved 7,000 miles continuous submerged range at economic speed of 4 knots.

Some information from Igor Blog http://igorrgroup.blogspot.in/2009/08/v ... arine.html

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Re: INS Arihant (ATV) News and Discussion -2

Postby SaiK » 27 Jun 2012 23:06

Austin, perhaps the selective quotes would help in the sense, how far in the 15 year estimate we have come, and what is the stats of our indigenous reactor., and hopefully any inputs on the weight of the reactor as well.

tia

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Re: INS Arihant (ATV) News and Discussion -2

Postby Cybaru » 27 Jun 2012 23:21

Austin wrote:No information on Sarov in official capacity is forthcoming as its classified project.

But in late 80's they tested RTG type 600 kW VAU-6 auxiliary nuclear powerplant on a experimental submarine which achieved 7,000 miles continuous submerged range at economic speed of 4 knots.

Some information from Igor Blog http://igorrgroup.blogspot.in/2009/08/v ... arine.html


Nice! Thanks for sharing. Perhaps that is the way for all our future Kilo replacements. Either RTG or small reactor. If it is this light, one could stick one or two of these on the new 65000 ton carrier. The small reactor could help reduce fuel required to be carried and will produce tons of steam for cat assisted take offs.

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Re: INS Arihant (ATV) News and Discussion -2

Postby hnair » 28 Jun 2012 02:33

Like the durable C4I backbone of Shivaliks, fully electric-drive boats are the way to go and khan as usual is cashing in the chips he has in those fields in R&D (the zumwalts will be great TDs for these things). Steam pipes, long drive shafts, gear drives etc are maintenance intensive, noisy and are not easily patchable later for any design flaws. They are difficult to diagnose or repair during a mid-mission failure of the likes of a simple breakdown or due to enemy action. Electrical back-boned boats can re-route power via redundant cabling networks. So if one side of the hull got punched in by a round and broke something, you re-route it through the other side. Infact I hope a day will come when those azipod thingys can be changed right at sea in a few hours after a wake-homer attack

sizzling isotope based thermo-electrics can provide really silent power, but if energy-density is not an issue, one wonders why we do not hear from khan about these things, other than in space-crafts? I mean, it does seem really attractive for long range patrol crafts.

Steam cats are like Orion P3s. They work extremely well for khan due to legacy reasons. But we need to go for the P8I equivalent (EM ones) from khan, as it better fits our current powerplants. For some reason :D Khan seems friendlier when it comes to selling naval tech, unlike say airborne ones.

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Re: INS Arihant (ATV) News and Discussion -2

Postby Cybaru » 28 Jun 2012 03:33

The smaller ASW boats would benefit quite a bit from the more quiter efficient podded systems perhaps. Also represents less risk on a smaller boat. Perhaps a TD is in order.

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Re: INS Arihant (ATV) News and Discussion -2

Postby Singha » 28 Jun 2012 07:48

the UK type23 frigate, which they claimed was the best ASW combatant in the world (in close contest with a couple of japanese types) has some kind of electric motor propulsion CODLAG for use during quiet hunting. we mostly see COGAG or CODAG in warships, codlag was specially used for the asw role.

CODLAG propulsion

The frigates are powered by a diesel-electric and gas (CODLAG) system, which consists of two Rolls Royce Spey SM1A 34,000hp gas turbines and two Alstom 1.5MW 4,400hp electric motors. There are also four Alstom 12 RP2000CZ 1.3MW 7,000hp auxiliary diesels. Using the diesel-electric motors, the economical speed is 15kt and the range is 7,800 miles. Maximum speed is 28kt.

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Re: INS Arihant (ATV) News and Discussion -2

Postby Austin » 28 Jun 2012 09:22

Cybaru wrote:Nice! Thanks for sharing. Perhaps that is the way for all our future Kilo replacements. Either RTG or small reactor. If it is this light, one could stick one or two of these on the new 65000 ton carrier. The small reactor could help reduce fuel required to be carried and will produce tons of steam for cat assisted take offs.


No you can stick RTG types to Carrier or Fast Nuke Submarine since the steams dont directly runs the gear boxes and turbine.

These reactors produces small amount of electricity that powers the battery which in turn drives the electrical motors and stuff like that , they dont give you high speed like Carriers or Fast Attack Submarine needs but it gives you endurance and silent slow speed beyond the means of any AIP today without the need surface.

So its still good for slow silent SSK to get enhanced submerged endurance but not for big submarines.

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Re: INS Arihant (ATV) News and Discussion -2

Postby Cybaru » 28 Jun 2012 10:29

Austin wrote:
Cybaru wrote:Nice! Thanks for sharing. Perhaps that is the way for all our future Kilo replacements. Either RTG or small reactor. If it is this light, one could stick one or two of these on the new 65000 ton carrier. The small reactor could help reduce fuel required to be carried and will produce tons of steam for cat assisted take offs.


No you can stick RTG types to Carrier or Fast Nuke Submarine since the steams dont directly runs the gear boxes and turbine.

These reactors produces small amount of electricity that powers the battery which in turn drives the electrical motors and stuff like that , they dont give you high speed like Carriers or Fast Attack Submarine needs but it gives you endurance and silent slow speed beyond the means of any AIP today without the need surface.

So its still good for slow silent SSK to get enhanced submerged endurance but not for big submarines.



The sarov seems to have a small tea kettle type reactor. So I am assuming it probably produces more energy than what an RTG would produce. I wasn't clear about it in my earlier post, so yes you are right, putting an RTG on carrier is pretty useless. Perhaps if this reactor produces between 1-5MW then sticking two on a carrier would allow it longer deployments. The experiment from 80's on the diesel seems to be an RTG but the new tech demonstrator seems to be a small reactor. Yeah an RTG in the range of 300-600 KW would be pretty decent on most diesels. Easier to maintain than a reactor.

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Re: INS Arihant (ATV) News and Discussion -2

Postby Singha » 28 Jun 2012 10:37

Can a couple of small Sarov type reactor produce enough steam to run 3 catapults?

note that while US may be willing to sell us catapult itself, we still have to arrange for the steam part on our own ... whether using a reactor or a steam plant

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Re: INS Arihant (ATV) News and Discussion -2

Postby vic » 28 Jun 2012 10:43

I think let's not get over ambitious. We should get more Arihant/s in water as the first priority.

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Re: INS Arihant (ATV) News and Discussion -2

Postby Will » 28 Jun 2012 12:29

If a conventional sub is going to cost as much as a nuclear one might as well go in for a nuclear one. Though having said that the new HDW 216 promises to be some sub. Would be great for an ocean going sub . It will be quiter than a nuclear sub in its electric mode to.

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Re: INS Arihant (ATV) News and Discussion -2

Postby sum » 30 Jul 2012 12:56

From Tarmak article on DRDO awards for 2012:

Shri AK Chakrabarti, Outstanding Scientist, Defence Research & Development Laboratory (DRDL), Hyderabad for outstanding contributions in the successful development of the first Submarine Launched Ballistic Missile System (SLBM) for the nuclear powered platform ‘ARIHANT’.

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Re: INS Arihant (ATV) News and Discussion -2

Postby joygoswami » 31 Jul 2012 23:57

The Silhouttee sub in this pic, is really the Arihant ? I hope its not been posted before. Its from Defexpo 2010.

Image

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Re: INS Arihant (ATV) News and Discussion -2

Postby pentaiah » 31 Jul 2012 23:59

It is the prototype of Arihant decoy to confuse

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Re: INS Arihant (ATV) News and Discussion -2

Postby member_23370 » 01 Aug 2012 02:44

They just used a stock image of trafalgar class

http://www.military-today.com/navy/traf ... images.htm

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Re: INS Arihant (ATV) News and Discussion -2

Postby Philip » 06 Aug 2012 14:46

Arihant still undergoing harbour trials?

India’s Secret Nuclear Weapons Program

http://www.marketoracle.co.uk/Article35917.html

Xcpt:
Long shrouded in secrecy as a “black project”, unlike the surface-to-surface nuclear missiles like Agni, the SLBM may now finally come out of the closet. Called different names at different developmental phases, which included ``Sagarika'' for an extended period, the SLBM in question is the ‘K-15’ missile with a 750-km strike range. Much like the over 5,000-km Agni-V that will be fully operational by 2015 after four-to-five “repeatable tests”, the K-15 is also still some distance away from being deployed. While the SLBM may be fully-ready and undergoing production now, as DRDO contends after conducting its test several times from submersible pontoons, its carrier INS Arihant will take at least a year before it’s ready for “deterrent patrols”.

India's first indigenous nuclear-powered submarine, the 6,000-tonne INS Arihant, is still undergoing “harbor-acceptance trials” with all its pipelines being cleared and tested meticulously on shore-based steam before its miniature 83 MW pressurized light-water reactor goes “critical”. The submarine will then undergo extensive “sea-acceptance trials” and test-fire the 10-tonne K-15, which can carry a one-tonne nuclear payload, from the missile silos on its hump.

Only then will India's missing third leg of the nuclear triad - the ability to fire nukes from land, air and sea - be in place. INS Arihant has four silos on its hump to carry either 12 K-15s or four of the 3,500-km range K-4 missiles undergoing tests at the moment. The first two legs revolve around the Agni missiles and fighters like Sukhoi-30MKIs and Mirage-2000s jury-rigged to deliver nuclear warheads.

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Re: INS Arihant (ATV) News and Discussion -2

Postby Cybaru » 06 Aug 2012 20:43

Yes Philipee, the uk rag gets daily updates on what the navy team is doing! ;), I can sign you up on arihant tirals mailing list if you so desire!


Philip wrote:Arihant still undergoing harbour trials?

India’s Secret Nuclear Weapons Program

http://www.marketoracle.co.uk/Article35917.html


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Re: INS Arihant (ATV) News and Discussion -2

Postby sum » 07 Aug 2012 14:39

Philip wrote:Arihant still undergoing harbour trials?



Adm Verma seems to have confirmed today that HBT are still on and sea trials havent started:
India's first indigenous nuclear-powered ballistic missile submarine Arihant will commence sea trials "in the coming months", Navy chief Admiral Nirmal Verma said today. "We're pretty close to putting her to sea. In submarine design, there's an element of unpredictablity. It's a hugely complex exercise. Sometimes, unexpected problems do come up. But I can say that in the next few months, she'll be ready for sea trials," he said. Separately, late last month, the Prime Minister gave away awards for indigenous technological excellence, which included one to DRDL scientist A.K. Chakrabarti for his "outstanding contributions in the successful development of the first Submarine Launched Ballistic Missile System (SLBM) for the nuclear powered platform ‘ARIHANT’."

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Re: INS Arihant (ATV) News and Discussion -2

Postby Pratyush » 07 Aug 2012 15:29

It seems that they are being extra cautious in the Harbour Trials. Before she goes to sea, the Arihant will have every one of her systems tested to the maximum and the unless the navy is 400 % sure how, one component will interact with another and how the system as a whole behave, she will not put to sea.

The jingo in me wishes that she passes every part of the trials with flying colours and goes on to have a long and boring carrier

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Re: INS Arihant (ATV) News and Discussion -2

Postby Boudhayan » 07 Aug 2012 16:40

Pratyush wrote: .... a long and boring carrier



"Boring" carrier ? I would still want it to test it's mizziles on TSP before retiring even if it does not fire them in anger during her carrier :mrgreen:

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Re: INS Arihant (ATV) News and Discussion -2

Postby shiv » 07 Aug 2012 16:48

Boudhayan wrote:
Pratyush wrote: .... a long and boring carrier



"Boring" carrier ? I would still want it to test it's mizziles on TSP before retiring even if it does not fire them in anger during her carrier :mrgreen:

I would still want to be bored and yawning when that happens.

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Re: INS Arihant (ATV) News and Discussion -2

Postby Aditya_V » 07 Aug 2012 18:22

Sorry I don't Arihant our Nuclear Triad to be ever tested, I dont a Nuclear war. Just that our detterent is there is enough.

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Re: INS Arihant (ATV) News and Discussion -2

Postby A Sharma » 07 Aug 2012 21:15

Why INS Arihant, submarine in final stages of testing, is so important

New Delhi: The INS Arihant, India's indigenously-built nuclear-powered submarine which is capable of carrying nuclear missiles "will be going for sea-trials soon," Chief of Naval Staff, Admiral Nirmal Verma told reporters today in New Delhi.

The submarine is now the in last stage of testing. Sources have told NDTV that barring any major set-backs, the INS Arihant should be able join the Indian Navy within the "next 18 months".

The advent of INS Arihant into the fleet will complete the crucial link in India's nuclear triad - the ability to fire nuclear weapons from land, air and sea. Admiral Verma, however, refused to give details of the weapons package on board the nuclear submarine. "I will not want to get into the details" he said.

The sea-trial of the INS Arihant was scheduled to start last year but was delayed because of technical glitches.

The Defence Research and Development Organization (DRDO) announced last month that it has successfully developed nuclear-tipped submarine-launched ballistic missiles (SLBMs). Long shrouded in secrecy, unlike surface-to-surface nuclear missiles like Agni, the SLBM was a closely -guarded secret while in development and was called the 'Sagarika Project'. In all probability, the INS Arihant will take this missile on board. So far, countries like the US, Russia, France, China and the UK have the capability to launch a submarine-based ballistic missile.

Although INS Arihant signifies a huge jump for the Indian Navy, the good news ends here. India's fleet of conventional submarines is fast depleting. India has 14 conventional submarines that run on either battery or diesel and are aging and outdated. Each of them will have completed the standard life-span of 25 years by 2017.

Admiral Verma admitted concern over the fact that upgraded versions have been grounded by bureaucratic delays.

At any given time, only seven submarines are available for deployment and are split on either coast. Seven submarines are mostly unavailable because they need to be serviced, refitted at increasingly short terms. Also, because the boats are aging fast, their lifespan need to be extended and therefore they are not deployed.

The Indian Navy's 30-year submarine programme, devised in 1988, envisaged buying six submarines from the West and countries in the East like Russia. India was to use the acquisition process to gain enough knowledge to build the next 12 submarines on its own. But Indian shipyards have largely been unable to either pick up the requisite technology or capability. Shipyards like the Hindustan Shipyard Limited which was originally supposed to build at least 3 submarines have been found to be incapable of building submarines.

The Indian Navy has now approached the government to be allowed to build two submarines in the shipyard of the foreign collaborator. "It is not exactly asking for importing two submarines. We are asking the government to allow us to build two submarines in their shipyard. In the long run it will be help our technicians gain expertise" and cut down in delays when building in India, Admiral Verma said.

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Re: INS Arihant (ATV) News and Discussion -2

Postby PratikDas » 08 Aug 2012 05:13

Aditya_V wrote:Sorry I don't Arihant our Nuclear Triad to be ever tested, I dont a Nuclear war. Just that our detterent is there is enough.


How does anyone believe that we have a sea based deterrent? We have several images from Shaurya, Agni and Brahmos tests but none for an underwater launch of a SLBM.

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Re: INS Arihant (ATV) News and Discussion -2

Postby saje » 08 Aug 2012 13:37

Actually, our sea based deterrent is also based on a lot of images with which we intend to tell our enemies that....

1) If you have seen this:
Image

2) ... and this:
Image

3)... and this also:
Image

4)... then one day, Inshallah you'll see something coming at you like this!
Image

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Re: INS Arihant (ATV) News and Discussion -2

Postby PratikDas » 08 Aug 2012 13:59

Saje sahab, it would be better if picture 2 was kept secret and the Indian version of picture 4 was released instead. Less Inshallah and more Mashallah.

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Re: INS Arihant (ATV) News and Discussion -2

Postby Nikhil T » 08 Aug 2012 14:11

PratikDas wrote:Saje sahab, it would be better if picture 2 was kept secret and the Indian version of picture 4 was released instead. Less Inshallah and more Mashallah.


Isn't picture 2, a gas turbine?? (GE LM2500?) What does it have to do with the missile/deterrence?

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Re: INS Arihant (ATV) News and Discussion -2

Postby krishnan » 08 Aug 2012 14:26

Quoting from the horses mouth for a complete end to the speculation..


A gas turbine engine of a ship being lifted for repairs

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Re: INS Arihant (ATV) News and Discussion -2

Postby PratikDas » 08 Aug 2012 15:38

Nikhil T wrote:
PratikDas wrote:Saje sahab, it would be better if picture 2 was kept secret and the Indian version of picture 4 was released instead. Less Inshallah and more Mashallah.


Isn't picture 2, a gas turbine?? (GE LM2500?) What does it have to do with the missile/deterrence?

We should ask Saje sahab that since he posted the pic, no? I will admit that I gave him the benefit of the doubt and took it to be a canister of sorts.

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Re: INS Arihant (ATV) News and Discussion -2

Postby saje » 08 Aug 2012 16:36

PratikDas wrote:We should ask Saje sahab that since he posted the pic, no? I will admit that I gave him the benefit of the doubt and took it to be a canister of sorts.


A thousand pardons from this humble mujahid! Picture 2 should have been this one:
Image

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Re: INS Arihant (ATV) News and Discussion -2

Postby PratikDas » 08 Aug 2012 16:56

Thank you, saje sahab. We have seen that picture on BRF. We can even take it a step further and quote the Russians praising our efforts in canister-isation.

Russia and India Report: Arms race between China and India?
May 2, 2012
<snip>
And we have to give credit to Indians, they have mastered, which has taken more time in bigger countries like the United States and Russia, they right from the beginning have put the missile into a canister which is sealed and the missile could be kept for quite some time before it is being thrown out from a canister and after that it starts moving.
<snip>


Nevertheless, our deterrence ought to stand for itself and not rely on a Russian attestation. All we need to see is a black silhouette underwater which breaks the surface like a Shivling and proceeds skywards post haste. No secrets compromised when you have virtually no visual reference for scale :)

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Re: INS Arihant (ATV) News and Discussion -2

Postby Katare » 08 Aug 2012 17:12


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Re: INS Arihant (ATV) News and Discussion -2

Postby eklavya » 08 Aug 2012 19:22

I understand that K-15 has a range of 750km, whereas Islamabad is over 1,100 km from the coast (Karachi to Islamabad is 1,143 km). On the other hand, Srinagar to Islamabad is only 164 km.

Is the idea to deploy INA Arihant in the Dal Lake? Presume our neighbour would never dream of lobbing one on Srinagar?

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Re: INS Arihant (ATV) News and Discussion -2

Postby Yogi_G » 08 Aug 2012 20:09

eklavya wrote:I understand that K-15 has a range of 750km, whereas Islamabad is over 1,100 km from the coast (Karachi to Islamabad is 1,143 km). On the other hand, Srinagar to Islamabad is only 164 km.

Is the idea to deploy INA Arihant in the Dal Lake? Presume our neighbour would never dream of lobbing one on Srinagar?


The 750 km range of Sagarika is like the 280 km range of the Brahmos, everyone knows its more but will never say so in public. Range Vs Payload is another thing. The Pakis know we can hit them from anywhere once we have the Arihant and thats what matters. The Chinese know that all of their coastal cities are under threat now as well from the boomer of ours.

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Re: INS Arihant (ATV) News and Discussion -2

Postby member_23694 » 09 Aug 2012 01:59

once the Arihant goes for sea trial....how much time one can assume it will take for a K - 15 to be actually test fired from it....
any idea.....also will the K-4 development take into consideration that it could be fit into Arihant or it may require future variants of
nuke subs to be deployed.....


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