INS Arihant (ATV) News and Discussion -2

adityadange
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Re: INS Arihant (ATV) News and Discussion -2

Postby adityadange » 09 Aug 2012 13:48

eklavya wrote:I understand that K-15 has a range of 750km, whereas Islamabad is over 1,100 km from the coast (Karachi to Islamabad is 1,143 km). On the other hand, Srinagar to Islamabad is only 164 km.

Is the idea to deploy INA Arihant in the Dal Lake? Presume our neighbour would never dream of lobbing one on Srinagar?



and why shouldnt we fire 2 of them from somewhere safe in arabian sea - one to karachi and other to gwadar?

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Re: INS Arihant (ATV) News and Discussion -2

Postby Virupaksha » 09 Aug 2012 13:55

adityadange wrote:
eklavya wrote:I understand that K-15 has a range of 750km, whereas Islamabad is over 1,100 km from the coast (Karachi to Islamabad is 1,143 km). On the other hand, Srinagar to Islamabad is only 164 km.

Is the idea to deploy INA Arihant in the Dal Lake? Presume our neighbour would never dream of lobbing one on Srinagar?



and why shouldnt we fire 2 of them from somewhere safe in arabian sea - one to karachi and other to gwadar?

you forget that there is someother country to our north :wink:

You dont need arihant for the pakis and besides, its main purpose is having definitive second strike capability. One doesnt get a 10,000 km missile from the air, one has to build slowly towards it and it takes enormous amount of time, money. There are no shortcuts.

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Re: INS Arihant (ATV) News and Discussion -2

Postby eklavya » 09 Aug 2012 14:20

I was obviously joking about Dal Lake :)

Yes, agree: need to build up nuke sub and sub lauched ballistic missile capability ... slowly but surely ... as a matter of priority.

Wish team working on K-4 all success.

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Re: INS Arihant (ATV) News and Discussion -2

Postby sharma.abhinav » 09 Aug 2012 14:33

eklavya wrote:I understand that K-15 has a range of 750km, whereas Islamabad is over 1,100 km from the coast (Karachi to Islamabad is 1,143 km). On the other hand, Srinagar to Islamabad is only 164 km.

Is the idea to deploy INA Arihant in the Dal Lake? Presume our neighbour would never dream of lobbing one on Srinagar?


Besides range of Sagarika/Shaurya is 1900 kms with 180 kg (Mk4 warhead as per diagram on wiki) payload and 750 kms with 1000 kg payload. Actually I find sagarika a very interesting missile, when mated to Arihant it will make Arihant a multirole submarine. With the missile flying at hypersonic speeds and in depressed trajectory it will be quite difficult to detect and intercept and will be a deadly missile to destroy strategic targets with conventional warhead. Specially in case of Pakistan, the missile can be used to destroy command and control centers of their ballistic missile launch complexes. So it kind of makes Arihant both an SSBN and an SSGN. Cheers :D

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Re: INS Arihant (ATV) News and Discussion -2

Postby member_20453 » 09 Aug 2012 14:41

Sagarika/Shaurya are ideal missiles for a whole of work. Actually with a anti radar seeker and a 200 kg warhead, the Sagarika can be used to take out over the horizon and very long range Sea search and air defence radars from over 1500km away. With a few major modifications, it long range, speed, high altitude cruise style flight path can be potentially used to make a ultra long range SAM version. It can be the ideal common platform. I also think a mini shaurya with a 100 kg warhead, a scale of 1/4th of the current version could be developed just as a mid range hypersonic air launched attack missile. The idea of speeds of mach 7.5, steep dive terminal maneuvering trajectories and good range is very enticing indeed.

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Re: INS Arihant (ATV) News and Discussion -2

Postby Rishirishi » 10 Aug 2012 20:31

What puzzles me is the range of Sagrika. TSP can be hit by air and land. No problem. To hit china from sea, India would require at least 2000KM range with a payload of a 1000 KG (assuming India does not have the H bomb, it claims, but has yet to prove) to hit the guangdong priovince. it would require at least 3500 to hit Shanghai.
What is the point with 750km range for Sagrika?

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Re: INS Arihant (ATV) News and Discussion -2

Postby sharma.abhinav » 10 Aug 2012 20:40

Rishirishi wrote:What puzzles me is the range of Sagrika. TSP can be hit by air and land. No problem. To hit china from sea, India would require at least 2000KM range with a payload of a 1000 KG (assuming India does not have the H bomb, it claims, but has yet to prove) to hit the guangdong priovince. it would require at least 3500 to hit Shanghai.
What is the point with 750km range for Sagrika?


Sagarika as a strategic missile is mainly Pak centric, but as a tactical missile can be used even against China. Considering that most cruise missiles have a range of around 1500 km and fly at subsonic speeds. Sagarika will fly at hypersonic so response time against it will be miniscule. For strategic solutions we will have to wait for K4 and K4 extended range missile (around 5000 km) and supposedly with MIRV's. I believe or would like to believe that once all 3 Arihants are delivered, we will work on bigger subs with 12 silos for K4 missiles. Then Arihants would be converted into SSGNs, with either Sagarika (in tactical role, conventional warhead) or with Nirbhay.

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Re: INS Arihant (ATV) News and Discussion -2

Postby Singha » 10 Aug 2012 22:01

Arihant with 3x4 = 12 Nirbhay and another 30 weapons in fwd torpedo room (mix of klubs, HWT, nirbhay) would make a potent SSN class sub with secondary strike role.

but for that we need our Arihant2 desi le troimphant class.

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Re: INS Arihant (ATV) News and Discussion -2

Postby sharma.abhinav » 10 Aug 2012 22:59

Troimphant class subs are really the right pedigree to follow. In tonnage they are almost twice that of Arihant and carry 16 silos for SL-IRBM/ICBM.

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Re: INS Arihant (ATV) News and Discussion -2

Postby shyamd » 10 Aug 2012 23:50

Sagarika is an interim measure. Final Naval Agni is still WIP

Don't forget next Arihant (s) will be a lot bigger and are under construction.

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Re: INS Arihant (ATV) News and Discussion -2

Postby sharma.abhinav » 11 Aug 2012 00:50

Don't forget next Arihant (s) will be a lot bigger and are under construction.


I wish for that to happen but I think next Arihants will of same dimensions as current one. The reason I say so is because hulls for other 2 subs in series were already getting fabricated (read that earlier on BR itself). Plus a bigger sub would require a newer more powerful reactor. Which would mean that economies of scale wont come at play and timelines wont be met for inductions.

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Re: INS Arihant (ATV) News and Discussion -2

Postby Philip » 11 Aug 2012 02:18

The missile silos are of a modular nature and it is most likely that the second batch of ATVs will have the extra missile modules with perhaps a larger hump to accommodate the extra length.The first 3 ATVs can very easily switch roles as SSGNs carrying 3 tactical and anti-ship missiles of the K-15/Shourya variety.

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Re: INS Arihant (ATV) News and Discussion -2

Postby Indranil » 11 Aug 2012 03:11

sharma.abhinav wrote:
Don't forget next Arihant (s) will be a lot bigger and are under construction.


I wish for that to happen but I think next Arihants will of same dimensions as current one. The reason I say so is because hulls for other 2 subs in series were already getting fabricated (read that earlier on BR itself). Plus a bigger sub would require a newer more powerful reactor. Which would mean that economies of scale wont come at play and timelines wont be met for inductions.


You are right about the next two. But, you are forgetting about NPOL's design for the next generation of the subs.

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Re: INS Arihant (ATV) News and Discussion -2

Postby shyamd » 11 Aug 2012 05:12

3rd Arihant will definitely have more SLBMs. Next 3 after the first 3 will be 'newer generation' subs.

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Re: INS Arihant (ATV) News and Discussion -2

Postby Indranil » 11 Aug 2012 07:29

^^^ Source please. I thought S-2/3/4/5 are all Arihant-class. Subsequent subs will be of the "newer generation".

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Re: INS Arihant (ATV) News and Discussion -2

Postby shyamd » 11 Aug 2012 14:24

Wait and see, more surprises will be due soon. 2nd Arihant will be launched end of this year hopefully

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Re: INS Arihant (ATV) News and Discussion -2

Postby VinodTK » 18 Aug 2012 04:46

India's Entering An Exclusive Military Club And There's No Turning Back
Within the next 18-months, India will commission it's first self-built nuclear submarine, complete with ballistics missiles fitted for nuclear warheads.

Currently only a handful of elite countries have the ability to launch nuclear ballistics missiles from beneath the water: US, Russia, France, China and the UK. But India's got it's foot in the door.

The country's first nuclear sub, the 6,000-ton behemoth named INS Arihant (or "Destroyer of Enemies") is just one of many late steps the country has taken to keep up with China in an accelerating arms race. Analysts consider the Asia-Pacific Area of Operations to be of intense focus for many global players.
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Re: INS Arihant (ATV) News and Discussion -2

Postby ramana » 18 Aug 2012 05:11

Philip wrote:The missile silos are of a modular nature and it is most likely that the second batch of ATVs will have the extra missile modules with perhaps a larger hump to accommodate the extra length.The first 3 ATVs can very easily switch roles as SSGNs carrying 3 tactical and anti-ship missiles of the K-15/Shourya variety.



I also want the next batch to have electric drive and dispense with the geared drive which contributes to the noise levels.

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Re: INS Arihant (ATV) News and Discussion -2

Postby Eric Leiderman » 18 Aug 2012 06:29

The article above mentions 4 nuke subs
If the second one is coming out so soon I would expect the hull is already ready, hence speculating, it would seem it is the same as the Arihant. For a larger hump and more missiles and a service speed in excess of 24 kts the reactor will have to be twinned or a more powerful one developed of approx 200 MWe Any which way even if all 4 subs are clones the strategigz advantage of 4 of them lurking around in the south china sea will be a re-assuring thought.

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Re: INS Arihant (ATV) News and Discussion -2

Postby ramana » 18 Aug 2012 07:02

Eric, The first 3 are the same for economies of scale. Somewhere in this thread around page 40 the plan is stated.
The next series will have the K4 the IRBM type.

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Re: INS Arihant (ATV) News and Discussion -2

Postby pentaiah » 18 Aug 2012 08:24

ramana wrote:
Philip wrote:The missile silos are of a modular nature and it is most likely that the second batch of ATVs will have the extra missile modules with perhaps a larger hump to accommodate the extra length.The first 3 ATVs can very easily switch roles as SSGNs carrying 3 tactical and anti-ship missiles of the K-15/Shourya variety.



I also want the next batch to have electric drive and dispense with the geared drive which contributes to the noise levels.


Are you suggesting that variable torque/speed DC or AC thyristor controlled motors,
In any case worm reduction has to be used as AC/DC motors sync speeds Or optimal torque speed has to be around 1300 RPM where as the final drive speed at the propeller shaft would be much less in order to avoid cavitation and also head loss.
The new way is VFD Variable frequency drives ( when the PM is AC motor again controlled by Thyristors or SCRs)


http://www.maritime.org/fleetsub/diesel/chap13.htm

http://media.bmt.org/bmt_media/resources/33/ElectricPropulsion.pdf

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Re: INS Arihant (ATV) News and Discussion -2

Postby Philip » 19 Aug 2012 10:52

Though it should be on another thread,the news today in the media,of the successful secret tests of the Indo-Israeli LR naval SAM to be fitted in VLS form aboard the Kolkatta class DDGs is very welcome.Similarly,the range,payload and other critical parameters of the sub-launched missiles is "elastic".I would imagine that it has been planned as an interim measure that an IN SSBN,in times of crisis exiting its eastern seaboard base and operating from the waters of the secure bastion of "fortress A&N",where extra air and naval assets can protect it,would have missiles with enough range to reach Beijing.Alternatively,the SSBNs could roost safe in their underground pens,exiting their bases below surface and launch within minutes within the safety of the Indian coast .

Once our naval ICBM has been perfected and commissioned,then IN SSBNs could hide in any part of the IOR ,well out of range of PLAN/PN subs,with ICBMs capable of reaching any part of China and the Korean peninsula.

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Re: INS Arihant (ATV) News and Discussion -2

Postby Philip » 01 Oct 2012 03:56

INS Arihant-a glimpse of the sail taken from Google earth earlier this year,under the floating concealment covers.Check link for pic.

http://www.fas.org/programs/ssp/nukes/i ... nt2012.jpg
India’s SSBN Shows Itself

Xcpt:
By Hans M. Kristensen

Could it be? It is not entirely clear, but a new satellite image might be showing part of India’s first nuclear-powered ballistic missile submarine, the Arihant.

The image, taken by GeoEye’s satellite on March 18, 2012, and made available on Google Earth, shows what appears to be the conning tower (or sail) of a submarine in a gap of covers intended to conceal it deep inside the Visakhapatnam (Vizag) Naval Base on the Indian east coast.

The image appears to show a gangway leading from the pier with service buildings and a large crane to the submarine hull just behind the conning tower. The outlines of what appear to be two horizontal diving planes extending from either side of the conning tower can also be seen on the grainy image.

The Arihant was launched in 2009 from the shipyard on the other side of the harbor and moved under an initial cover. An image released by the Indian government in 2010 appears to show the submarine inside the initial cover.
The Indian government published this image in 2010, apparently showing the Arihant inside the initial concealment building.


The new cover, made up of what appears to be 13-meter floating modules that can be assembled to fit the length of the submarine, similarly to what Russia is using at its submarine shipyard in Severodvinsk, first appeared in 2010. Images from 2011 show the modules in various configurations but without the submarine inside.

The movement of the Arihant from the initial cover building to the module covers next to the service facilities and large crane indicates that the submarine has entered a new phase of fitting out. The initial cover building appeared empty in April 2012 when the Indian Navy show-cased its new Russia-supplied Akula-class nuclear-powered attack submarine: the Chakra.

It is thought that the Arihant is equipped with less than a dozen launch tubes behind the conning tower for short/medium-range nuclear-armed ballistic missiles. Before it can become fully operational, however, the Arihant will have to undergo extensive refitting and sea-trials that may last through 2013. It is expected that India might be building several SSBNs.

Like the other nuclear weapon states, India continues to modernize its nuclear forces, despite pledges to work for a world free of nuclear weapons.

See also: Indian nuclear forces, 2012.

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Re: INS Arihant (ATV) News and Discussion -2

Postby pentaiah » 01 Oct 2012 08:59

Almost looks like general dynamics aka electric boat shed in New London Groton
You can see that from the bridge on the new Thames river as you go from new London to Groton .

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Re: INS Arihant (ATV) News and Discussion -2

Postby sum » 11 Nov 2012 09:42

Not so good news on Arihant front:

INS Arihant will miss December deadline

The INS Arihant, India's first nuclear-powered submarine, will not go for its much-awaited sea trial by December—the deadline set by the Navy.

The 80 Mwe nuclear reactor on-board the submarine is yet to be functional more than three years after the submarine was launched in water. The reactor is yet to produce the energy required to propel the 6000-tonne submarine.

The non-functioning of the Arihant nuclear reactor has more to do with the completion of a large number of other systems and components inside the submarine vessel rather than any problem with the nuclear reactor.
“At the earliest, Arihant can go for sea-trial only in 2013,” sources in the department of atomic energy told Deccan Herald.



“Everything was made in India up to the last nuts and bolts. Also the industry was not well developed when we started. We faced a lot of problems on materials,” said a nuclear scientist who was closely associated with reactor development.

But when the submarine was launched in water in July 2009, many systems and components were not in place. Over the last two years, the project management team was putting the instruments in place. The circular design of the submarine’s interior panel made the job more complicated for the team.
“More than 150 systems have to work simultaneously for the submarine to operate,” the sources said.



At the moment, the N-submarine has 125 K-15 short range ballistic missiles with a one-tonne nuclear warhead, which can hit the target at a distance of 700 km. Eventually they will be replaced by 3500 km range submarine launched ballistic missiles, which are currently under development.

Construction has also begun for the second nuclear-submarine and its nuclear reactor as numerous systems and components are being readied. But the final assembly for the reactor as well as the vessel is yet to start.
Last edited by sum on 11 Nov 2012 10:35, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: INS Arihant (ATV) News and Discussion -2

Postby Pratyush » 11 Nov 2012 10:29

Hmmm....

As long as she starts sea trials bu 2013. It makes no major difference.

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Re: INS Arihant (ATV) News and Discussion -2

Postby Will » 11 Nov 2012 14:20

At the moment, the N-submarine has 125 K-15 short range ballistic missiles with a one-tonne nuclear warhead, which can hit the target at a distance of 700 km. Eventually they will be replaced by 3500 km range submarine launched ballistic missiles, which are currently under development.

Construction has also begun for the second nuclear-submarine and its nuclear reactor as numerous systems and components are being readied. But the final assembly for the reactor as well as the vessel is yet to start.


From where did they come up with the no of 125 K-15 in the sub? Duh!!! Lol. :rotfl:

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Re: INS Arihant (ATV) News and Discussion -2

Postby member_22906 » 11 Nov 2012 14:50

Must have mistaken 125 with the planned 12 :)

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Re: INS Arihant (ATV) News and Discussion -2

Postby sum » 11 Nov 2012 18:20

^^ Yup...seems to be a typ intended to be 12. Anyways, was thinking that the reactor has been started by now. Guess secondary source harbour trials are still in progress!

What is the comment about circular interior of the sub making it tougher for the instrumentation? Is it different for SSKs?

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Re: INS Arihant (ATV) News and Discussion -2

Postby Singha » 11 Nov 2012 20:57

The inner hull of our other subs could have flatbsides

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Re: INS Arihant (ATV) News and Discussion -2

Postby member_22906 » 11 Nov 2012 22:17

Could it just be a ploy to keep the snoopers off guard by stating delay in trials, while discreetly having them :twisted:

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Re: INS Arihant (ATV) News and Discussion -2

Postby Indranil » 11 Nov 2012 22:27

Oh! don't worry about the information here ... Nobody knew about Aridaman till the accident at Vizag and then we came to know that at the point of time, the hull of the 3rd submarine was being built!

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Re: INS Arihant (ATV) News and Discussion -2

Postby sum » 20 Nov 2012 09:43

X-post:

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Re: INS Arihant (ATV) News and Discussion -2

Postby Singha » 20 Nov 2012 10:29

>> After its launch from under water, the 10-metre tall K-15 will rise to an altitude of 20 km and cover a distance of 700 km

20km cannot be true. its like 65000ft. even shourya flies at 40km.

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Re: INS Arihant (ATV) News and Discussion -2

Postby member_23370 » 20 Nov 2012 10:44

If it flies at lower altitude (20 km) may be it can only go 700 km. At 40 km the range will increase to 1500 km.

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Re: INS Arihant (ATV) News and Discussion -2

Postby vina » 20 Nov 2012 11:45

Hmm. So, Arihant's reactor is 80MWt, or around 25MWe, so around 22MW shaft hp , approx 28 knots to 30 knots speed.

The K-15 testing is good news. The K4 will be the Dragon Slayer, enabling second strike from stand off distances. Waiting for K4 to get tested so that we have effective deterrence in place.

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Re: INS Arihant (ATV) News and Discussion -2

Postby merlin » 20 Nov 2012 12:55

That's almost 30K SHP! Can we estimate Arihant's tonnage (submerged displacement) from that?

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Re: INS Arihant (ATV) News and Discussion -2

Postby adityadange » 20 Nov 2012 14:22

merlin wrote:That's almost 30K SHP! Can we estimate Arihant's tonnage (submerged displacement) from that?


INS Arihant will miss December deadline

The reactor is yet to produce the energy required to propel the 6000-tonne submarine.

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Re: INS Arihant (ATV) News and Discussion -2

Postby sum » 20 Nov 2012 14:29

Hmm. So, Arihant's reactor is 80MWt, or around 25MWe, so around 22MW shaft hp , approx 28 knots to 30 knots speed.

How does this compare to contemporaries around?

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Re: INS Arihant (ATV) News and Discussion -2

Postby member_20317 » 20 Nov 2012 14:31

vina wrote:Hmm. So, Arihant's reactor is 80MWt, or around 25MWe, so around 22MW shaft hp , approx 28 knots to 30 knots speed.

The K-15 testing is good news. The K4 will be the Dragon Slayer, enabling second strike from stand off distances. Waiting for K4 to get tested so that we have effective deterrence in place.



Our take on the Los Angeles Class.

That settles the size debate for Arihant.

What about the subsequent subs?


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