INS Arihant (ATV) News and Discussion -2

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Gagan
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Re: INS Arihant (ATV) News and Discussion -2

Post by Gagan »

chackojoseph wrote:DCNS India signed an indigenization contract under the Scorpene submarines programme

Flash Forge has developed titanium 6Al4V components for an approximately 20-tonne order of the Indian Navy’s Advanced Technological Vessel (ATV) Project INS Arihant.
20 tons? Not very big.
Reactor containment? reactor vessel?
What titanium thing could go into a N sub?
The sierra class russian sub had a complete titanium pressure hull, and was very expensive.
But what is 20 tons in a 6000 ton N-sub?
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Re: INS Arihant (ATV) News and Discussion -2

Post by Singha »

titanium is stronger than steel and many times lighter.
could be any reactor , steam turbine or mechanical thing.
could even be liner for the torpedo and missile tubes for all we know.
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Re: INS Arihant (ATV) News and Discussion -2

Post by chackojoseph »

I just read a small para of Titanium: a technical guide By Matthew J. Donachie in Google books

Used for water jet inducers for hydrofoil propulsion and sea water valve balls for nuclear submarines.
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Re: INS Arihant (ATV) News and Discussion -2

Post by Gagan »

The propellars are brass right?
Don't we make big brass forgings in India? Why import these from Russia?

We are building a hundred dams, I think we still import the turbines for those.

Metallurgy metallurgy.

Glad to know that the titanium thing has come about. IIRC this was one of the gifts of the space and missile program to the nation. As also the carbon composite structures derived from the agni's RV heat shield research.
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Re: INS Arihant (ATV) News and Discussion -2

Post by chackojoseph »

Gagan wrote:Glad to know that the titanium thing has come about. IIRC this was one of the gifts of the space and missile program to the nation.
Significant work on Ti wrt kaveri. i will post that on 19 June.
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Re: INS Arihant (ATV) News and Discussion -2

Post by Kailash »

^^^ Any news on metallurgical advance is awesome, more so when it deals with Kaveri :)
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Re: INS Arihant (ATV) News and Discussion -2

Post by Shrinivasan »

Kailash wrote:^^^ Any news on metallurgical advance is awesome, more so when it deals with Kaveri :)
any news of Kaveri is awesome
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Re: INS Arihant (ATV) News and Discussion -2

Post by Bret Lanius »

Last edited by Gerard on 09 Jul 2011 03:53, edited 1 time in total.
Reason: username changed to conform to forum guidelines
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Re: INS Arihant (ATV) News and Discussion -2

Post by krishnan »

Those 2 pics where debated to death
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Re: INS Arihant (ATV) News and Discussion -2

Post by Shrinivasan »

krishnan wrote:Those 2 pics where debated to death
Ghoster just woke up after a long slumber!!! :rotfl:
Bradmins, is Ghoster a valid forum handle?
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Re: INS Arihant (ATV) News and Discussion -2

Post by Prasad »

Not to mention the fact that Gagan predicted the exact thing beforehand with an accurate diagram :)
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Re: INS Arihant (ATV) News and Discussion -2

Post by Bret Lanius »

What is that pipe going through the sides of hump??
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Re: INS Arihant (ATV) News and Discussion -2

Post by Singha »

probably a temporary dockside use pipe for electrical/electronics wiring.
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Re: INS Arihant (ATV) News and Discussion -2

Post by Philip »

Has anyone spotted the drgs. of the ATV in a recent issue of the IMR? There was what appeared to be a very accurate set of line drgs. of the sub which showed a distinctive hump abaft the sail,but a hump with a smooth overall hull profile from bow to tail ,with the elevated hull housing the misile silos,smoothly and gradually sloping down past the sail to the bows, not a bump of a hump as in ther PLAN's SSBNs or Russian DElta class SSBNs.
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Re: INS Arihant (ATV) News and Discussion -2

Post by Shrinivasan »

Philip wrote:Has anyone spotted the drgs. of the ATV in a recent issue of the IMR? There was what appeared to be a very accurate set of line drgs. of the sub which showed a distinctive hump abaft the sail,but a hump with a smooth overall hull profile from bow to tail ,with the elevated hull housing the misile silos,smoothly and gradually sloping down past the sail to the bows, not a bump of a hump as in ther PLAN's SSBNs or Russian DElta class SSBNs.
Philip, could you give a link or some blurbs from this article. thanks. I cannot locate the article.
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Re: INS Arihant (ATV) News and Discussion -2

Post by Philip »

Will hunt for it in the "quicksand" of mags!
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Re: INS Arihant (ATV) News and Discussion -2

Post by Avid »

Gagan wrote:The propellars are brass right?
Don't we make big brass forgings in India? Why import these from Russia?
Gagan, I remember reading that the sub propellers was Bronze (for some reason recall Beryllium Bronze). Brass propellers are used in boats, but are considered not suitable for the sub.

I will try dig out the reference.
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Re: INS Arihant (ATV) News and Discussion -2

Post by Avid »

Here's one I found. Not the one I was recalling, but ....

http://cadcammodelling.wordpress.com/20 ... pbuilding/
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Re: INS Arihant (ATV) News and Discussion -2

Post by Philip »

Fabrication of a subs's screws is one of the most highly held secrets of all, the shape and details of the screws affect the sub's quietness when underway.During the Cold War,The Soviets supposedy stole the screw secrets from Japan,which led to their subs becomin much quieter than before.Probably why PLAN subs are allegedly so noisy as they have yet to steal the same!

Here is a brief but concise explanation of how a sub's screw,a propulsor,etc.,works.
http://www.submarineresearch.com/bull70.html
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Re: INS Arihant (ATV) News and Discussion -2

Post by tejas »

Philip, I don't recall the Russians stealing propeller tech from Japan. I do remember they bought (against Japanese export rules) a CNC 5-axis milling machine from Toshiba in the early 80s which caused a diplomatic uproar in the US. People even trashed and burned Japanese cars in protest here in Umrikah.
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Re: INS Arihant (ATV) News and Discussion -2

Post by Neshant »

the trashing & burning of Japanese car was because American cars were crap in the 80s and could not compete against those imports.

mostly it was done by american auto workers who got laid off.
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Re: INS Arihant (ATV) News and Discussion -2

Post by Singha »

toshiba was penalized for a few years in its US operations as a fallout. I dont think it was just one machine but many. the Akula-1 class were the first beneficiaries apparently.
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Re: INS Arihant (ATV) News and Discussion -2

Post by Kersi D »

Chinmayanand wrote:INS Indira ,the name alone will cause too much heartburn and pour gasoline into the paki musharraf. :mrgreen:
And no secular or pseudo-secular can oppose that.
Forget Arabs, Muslim states etc. Think of the pandemonium it will cause with all the BJP and the non-kangress politicians of all other hues :rotfl:

And then Kangress will ask for a INS Sonia. And then Italy may object

K
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Re: INS Arihant (ATV) News and Discussion -2

Post by Kersi D »

tejas wrote:Philip, I don't recall the Russians stealing propeller tech from Japan. I do remember they bought (against Japanese export rules) a CNC 5-axis milling machine from Toshiba in the early 80s which caused a diplomatic uproar in the US. People even trashed and burned Japanese cars in protest here in Umrikah.
In the 1950s it was RN which was trying to "find out" about Russian propellers. When the Russian cruiser Ordzhonikidze visited Portsmouth, RN supposedly sent a frog man Lt Col Crabb to study Ordzhonikidze's propeller. He was never seen again.

K
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Re: INS Arihant (ATV) News and Discussion -2

Post by Singha »

on the crabb case. it seems they were trying to look at a bow thruster on the russian ship.
http://persona.rin.ru/eng/view/f/0/18296/lionel-crabb
but a ex-colleague of crabb says that MI5 killed him due to planning to defect and misidentified some unknown body
http://www.divemagazine.co.uk/news/late ... death.html
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Re: INS Arihant (ATV) News and Discussion -2

Post by Kersi D »

Singha wrote:on the crabb case. it seems they were trying to look at a bow thruster on the russian ship.
http://persona.rin.ru/eng/view/f/0/18296/lionel-crabb
but a ex-colleague of crabb says that MI5 killed him due to planning to defect and misidentified some unknown body
http://www.divemagazine.co.uk/news/late ... death.html
:( :-o :eek: :shock: :-? :roll:
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Re: INS Arihant (ATV) News and Discussion -2

Post by dinesha »

India begins work on 2nd nuclear submarine
http://www.asianage.com/india/india-beg ... marine-184
The project is expected to be ready for sea trials by 2015.
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Re: INS Arihant (ATV) News and Discussion -2

Post by Shrinivasan »

dinesha wrote:India begins work on 2nd nuclear submarine
http://www.asianage.com/india/india-beg ... marine-184
Image
Great News!!! this mean Arihants sea-legs are strudy and he is has also completed sea trials. Chaiwala who serves hot chai and encourages to drink it hot said, he has seen this baby near its new home being built. he was on one of his chai delivery trips there.
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Re: INS Arihant (ATV) News and Discussion -2

Post by Cain Marko »

^ from above:

"The reactor has been fabricated with the help of Russia."

For all those who want to move away from evil russkis when it comes to matters of defence, and how the buggers keep arm twisting poor yindoos, the above might serve as a good reminder. No point griping when India still needs such "help". A few extra bucks and some wrangling it might be, but Roosi goods are still much cheaper than western counterparts, moreover associated help of above nature makes Russia a very tempting partner.

Cm.

Why evil russkis help in such matter
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Re: INS Arihant (ATV) News and Discussion -2

Post by Shrinivasan »

Cain Marko wrote: Why evil russkis help in such matter
Russkis nead $$$s.Yindo-Ruski Bhai Bhai is still strong, eventhough there are some strains of anger and grumbling.
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Re: INS Arihant (ATV) News and Discussion -2

Post by Singha »

wrt last line of that Arihant2 article: we are arranging for strong escort vessels for ADS in the shape of P15A / P15B with atleast 48 SAMs and MFSTAR if not more

one of these positioned towards potential threats should be able to surveil a area of 400km radius and saturate the air with SAMs in a 70km radius.
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Re: INS Arihant (ATV) News and Discussion -2

Post by Shrinivasan »

Singha wrote:wrt last line of that Arihant2 article: we are arranging for strong escort vessels for ADS in the shape of P15A / P15B with atleast 48 SAMs and MFSTAR if not more

one of these positioned towards potential threats should be able to surveil a area of 400km radius and saturate the air with SAMs in a 70km radius.
Assing to Singha's point, Desi Frigates and destroyers will be part of our CBG. some of our large capital ships like Proj 15A/B destroyers could also form their own battle groups to fight as a group.
my dream
A Carrier centered Battle Group:
1) 1 Aircraft carrier with an Air Arm of 10 planes, couple of LR UAVs, 6-8 helos
2) 2 DDG (1 Delhi class and 1 Rajput class)
3) Couple of frigates (Talwar class/Shivalik Class)
4) 2 SSKs.
5) Fleet replenishment Tanker
6) couple of Fast ASW Corvettes

A DDG centered Battle group:
1) 1 Project 15A/B Destroyer
2) 1 DDG (Delhi/Rajput class)
3) 2-3 frigates (1or2 improved Talwar class/1 Shivalik Class)
4) 1 SSK.
5) Fleet replenishment Tanker
6) 1 ASW Corvette
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Re: INS Arihant (ATV) News and Discussion -2

Post by suryag »

Shrinivasan wrote:
dinesha wrote:India begins work on 2nd nuclear submarine
http://www.asianage.com/india/india-beg ... marine-184
Image
Great News!!! this mean Arihants sea-legs are strudy and he is has also completed sea trials. Chaiwala who serves hot chai and encourages to drink it hot said, he has seen this baby near its new home being built. he was on one of his chai delivery trips there.
This atleast means our Arihant has done most of the things right and is ready for sea trials. Let all gods bless the crew and the vessel, hope we have an announcement on culmination of its sea trials
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Re: INS Arihant (ATV) News and Discussion -2

Post by chackojoseph »

Cain Marko wrote:^ from above:

"The reactor has been fabricated with the help of Russia."

For all those who want to move away from evil russkis when it comes to matters of defence, and how the buggers keep arm twisting poor yindoos, the above might serve as a good reminder. No point griping when India still needs such "help". A few extra bucks and some wrangling it might be, but Roosi goods are still much cheaper than western counterparts, moreover associated help of above nature makes Russia a very tempting partner.

Cm.

Why evil russkis help in such matter
What has not been purchased from Russia that is world class? A/C Carrier, nuke subs, sealth a/c, helicopters missiles, tanks, ammo etc.

It will be worthwhile to know when we turned the otherway unless Russians could not supply?
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Re: INS Arihant (ATV) News and Discussion -2

Post by Singha »

> It will be worthwhile to know when we turned the otherway unless Russians could not supply?

either whole or for parts:
MRCA, avionics for Su30, Bison, Mig27upg, MR-SAM, LR-SAM, Maitri, MFSTAR, various other land radars from which certain parts were sourced abroad, Bhim, Arjun parts, airfield modernization, 155mm shell factory, various pods and EW gear, crystal maze, cold weather ops gear, AL stallion design, Tatra trucks, Tejas, Dhruv, LCH, LOH, IJT, WSI, naval tankers, patrol boats (OPV, interceptor, super dvora), midget subs, DSRV, shipon rockets, Lahat missiles, EO/NVG gear, ground surveillance radar, aerostats, Phalcons, EMB145 AEW, ADS, Pinaka TCS, LGBs, laser pods, CBU , P17A, P8I, low-end-MPA tender .... there will be more where Rus had equivalent products.
Last edited by Singha on 11 Jul 2011 08:41, edited 3 times in total.
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Re: INS Arihant (ATV) News and Discussion -2

Post by John »

Shrinivasan wrote:Assing to Singha's point, Desi Frigates and destroyers will be part of our CBG. some of our large capital ships like Proj 15A/B destroyers could also form their own battle groups to fight as a group.
SSKs cannot be part of any battle group unless you want to chug along at 10 knots.
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Re: INS Arihant (ATV) News and Discussion -2

Post by NRao »

chackojoseph wrote: What has not been purchased from Russia that is world class? A/C Carrier, nuke subs, sealth a/c, helicopters missiles, tanks, ammo etc.

It will be worthwhile to know when we turned the otherway unless Russians could not supply?
Rather prophetic.

How about spares?

What use are all these without spares or after-sales support?
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Re: INS Arihant (ATV) News and Discussion -2

Post by Shrinivasan »

John wrote:
Shrinivasan wrote:Assing to Singha's point, Desi Frigates and destroyers will be part of our CBG. some of our large capital ships like Proj 15A/B destroyers could also form their own battle groups to fight as a group.
SSKs cannot be part of any battle group unless you want to chug along at 10 knots.
Kilo class can travel submerged @ a speed of 15-27 knots. 10-15 knots is surface speed. it is hardly going to do that during an attack raid. Also SSKs would be traveling ahead of the battlegroup and not with the battlegroup.
Speeds are similar for Scorpene. Top speed of a Delhi class DDG is only 28knots and IAC1 could have a speed of say 30knots. I don't see speed as a reason for a SSK not being part of an IN battle group.
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Re: INS Arihant (ATV) News and Discussion -2

Post by Shrinivasan »

Singha wrote:> It will be worthwhile to know when we turned the otherway unless Russians could not supply?

either whole or for parts:
MRCA, avionics for Su30, ... .... there will be more where Rus had equivalent products.
Excellent point Singha, the shift away from RU gear has been happening subtly for years... if not decades (desh replaced many parts from SU30 MKI in the 90s). In 2011, things have come out in full-force. I think a decade back there was a TINa factor with RU gear, a couple of years back it was grin&bear and now its a no holds bar spat.

It has also moved on from "not willing to be a dependable supplier" to "not CAPABLE of being a dependable supplier" and is a really sorry state of affairs. RU tried to stem the rot by setting up a liaison board for sourcing suppliers, parts services etc... am not sure if it is alive now.
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Re: INS Arihant (ATV) News and Discussion -2

Post by John »

Shrinivasan wrote: Kilo class can travel submerged @ a speed of 15-27 knots. 10-15 knots is surface speed. it is hardly going to do that during an attack raid. Also SSKs would be traveling ahead of the battlegroup and not with the battlegroup.
Speeds are similar for Scorpene. Top speed of a Delhi class DDG is only 28knots and IAC1 could have a speed of say 30knots. I don't see speed as a reason for a SSK not being part of an IN battle group.
Top speed of a vessel is irrelevant (unless you are dealing with nuclear propulsion) since operating at that speed you are going to burn up lot of fuel, Kilo cruising/snorkeling speed is about 8-10 knots compared to surface combatants which can do 18 knots+. Scorpene/Kilo are designed to cover choke points, lay mines if we want an SSK with great range/endurance and speed we will have custom build one.
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