INS Arihant (ATV) News and Discussion -2

Dileep · Post by **Dileep** » 19 Aug 2009 17:13

The Permanent magnetic synchronous motor is more of a DC motor than a synchronous motor. The synchronous motor works by the reaction by the induced flux, while a DC motor works by magnetic repulsion. (Of course, you can explain the synch motor as repulsion onlee, because the flux indeed makes the rotor into a magnet, and repels it.)

It works by driving the stator, while monitoring the shaft and the flux. As the stator rotates away, the stator winding is commutated at the right instant. The speed is controlled by the drive into the stator. I prefer to look at it that way, rather than a synch motor driven from an inverter. The issues of excitation, power factor etc also favours the view.

Victor · Post by **Victor** » 19 Aug 2009 21:45

Charu wrote:Snow Sir,
...I presume the induustrial R&D in India ... are engaged in cutting edge research on material science, high-temperature superconductor technology etc.

Link

Jayram · Post by **Jayram** » 20 Aug 2009 03:55

The 6000-tonne, INS Arihant submarine is powered by an 85 megawatt capacity nuclear reactor and can acquire surface speeds of 22 to 28 kmph (12-15 knots) and submerged speed upto 44 kmph (24 knots). It will be carrying a crew of 95 men and will be armed with torpedoes and missiles including 12 ballistic missiles.

The eyes and ears of INS Arihant were designed and developed by scientists of the NPOL. The sonar(sound navigation and ranging) system installed on Arihant are a combination of two communication systems named `Ushus’ and ‘Panchendriya’. Panchendriya is a an integrated submarine sonar and tactical control system, comprising a passive surveillance sonar, a passive ranging sonar, an intercept sonar, an active sonar and an underwater communications system.

From here

There is also a low pixel schematic of the Nuclear reactor coupled to the propeller. Not sure if the gurus can make more of it..

hnair · Post by **hnair** » 20 Aug 2009 05:47

Gerard wrote:http://wikimapia.org/129468/SBC-ship-building-centre

Some aerial pics lying around in the web...

Pic1
pic2
pic3

vina · Post by **vina** » 20 Aug 2009 07:02

hnair wrote:Pic1,pic2,pic3

The big building posted here I think is Hindustan Shipyard's covered building dock, not the Navy's SBC . The Navy facilities are further into the harbor. HSL's is right at the bend/entrance.

Gagan · Post by **Gagan** » 20 Aug 2009 10:31

hnair · Post by **hnair** » 20 Aug 2009 10:48

Gagan, there are some more jingo-xtatic (but relatively obscure) photos in those pages of the sort you posted..... but would be wary of g-oo-gul

vina, first pic has it (rest has the channel, harbor trial et al). a rather busy place

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 20 Aug 2009 11:48

the white building on right is probably the goatshed where Arihant is parked now, pending harbour acceptance trial.

Patrick Cusack · Post by **Patrick Cusack** » 20 Aug 2009 12:14

Interesting photos - Hyderabad airport ingress & egress for sure

John Snow · Post by **John Snow** » 20 Aug 2009 12:18

Thats how the Electric Boat Building (General Dynamics) also looks when you are going over the bridge (on New Thames) from Groton to New London ( on the Left side0.

Guruji must have passed that bridge when he was in Boston going to NY ( even in train it is visible as it crosses the bridge which is parallel to the road bridge).

Singha garu do you happen to know Bhaskar Deka by any chance in Boston (MA) guy from BITS Pilani?

Rishi · Post by **Rishi** » 20 Aug 2009 15:52

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 20 Aug 2009 16:14

spinster I have visited the uss nautilus museum in that vicinity. deka sir is no longer in MA now.

Gagan · Post by **Gagan** » 20 Aug 2009 19:17

The thing to note here is that the Ship Building Center is atleast 2.5 - 3 times the length of the pen.

There could be another two subs building in there already.

Kersi D · Post by **Kersi D** » 20 Aug 2009 19:30

John Snow wrote:Read here
http://www.fleetsubmarine.com/propulsion.html

We have everything in the country a little leadership a little commitment, a little we too can do it, a little management to tie it all up. We can launch two subs a year. We have the private and public sector capacity to support, ABOVE ALL there is money to be made by everybody, including Armed forces brass heading the supplies and prourement. Keep the money with our people in the country instead fo permenantly fixed deposits with Swiss or Mr. Q in Isle of Man banks please please...

You are giving the answer to ALL the whines on BRF

This is the solution to ALL the problems facing India but...

If there is no easy money (read kickbacks) how will our POOR, politicians, babus, bureaucrats, inept/inefficient survive in thuis big bad world ? Think for these poor creatures (read @$%$#!#$)

K

Kersi D · Post by **Kersi D** » 20 Aug 2009 19:34

vina wrote:
I will end up as line man in SEB
Snow Garu. Atleast your fate was better. My parents simply had no hope for me. My dad thought I would make a good typist /stenographer and the best that can happen to me is to end up as a clerk in a PSU bank like SBI .

I took typing classes right after my 10th exam , banging out the required number of words per minute in a old Godrej /Halda type writer . Dad wanted to put me in short hand classes, but I revolted. I think that I managed to pull my socks up after my 10th std and do a desperate rear guard to save my Musharraf. If I hadn't been able to get into the Madrassa, you probably would have seen me sitting behind the teller counter in a bank or be a part of the typist pool ( a endangered species I would think) in some govt office !

But you might be earning more than the other (un) intelligent, (hardly) sincere, hard (hardly) working SOBs like me !!!!!

K

Hey I am joking. NEVER take me too seriously.

Kersi D · Post by **Kersi D** » 20 Aug 2009 19:37

John Snow wrote:vina garu>> when I started dabbling in electronic circuits making and fixing transistor radios etc and playing lot of cricket my scores in middle school into intermediate my scores started do NFI down hill skining, my relatives ( as my dad was in Kirkee) my uncle (fathers sisters husban who was CWE in Mudfort Sec bad) wrote to my dad your son will become a excellent radio mechanic or a fitter send him to ITI!
Thats when I thought better go like Lt kalia than die a wimp....

Excuse Me. Are you the same John Snow, the Indian-hating English fast bowler of the 1960s & 1970s ? I remember he deliberately banged into an Indian batsman (Sunil Gavaskar, I think) whilst taking a run.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 20 Aug 2009 19:39

Vina sir would probably be a PSU bank GM/zonal manager now, attached to a high revenue metro branch. sharp as a whip on all rules concerning banking, meeting top businessmen on deposit raising drives, attending the occasional zonal meeting in chennai or dilli. a couple of peons guarding the gate to his AC chamber with an anteroom having a PA to take calls and write memos in shorthand. a PC which is seldom used, neatly placed on the huge wooden desk for show. and in morning soon as the white curtained Amby comes to a halt under the office front door, a peon scurries deftly to take the leather briefcase and steel tiffin carrier from the imperious boss.

Tanaji · Post by **Tanaji** » 20 Aug 2009 20:56

^^^ dont forget "giving instructions to the PA to print out his email so that he can read it" Or, asking his subordinates to fax him Word docs so that his PA can type it up.

<ducks, runs and hides cowering in the corner>

John Snow · Post by **John Snow** » 20 Aug 2009 22:50

I worked with Deka in Pfizer Inc.
He is with Informatica in CA.

***
Notice the Dolphins nose land mark, which can be seen from the (Chavula mudam) junction, also from Waltair staiton (at least circa 1975 -77). The road parallel to the Meacon constructed over head ore loading conveyor. in pic 2

BijuShet · Post by **BijuShet** » 20 Aug 2009 23:00

OT Alert
I have a pooch about Arihant and the food served underwater. If they serve Chole Bhatura, will that affect the boats bouyancy 3 hours later?

John Snow · Post by **John Snow** » 20 Aug 2009 23:05

no all out put is passed on to tarpedo tubes high pressure gas ejection in water condition.
All this is covered in newbie posts.

rakall · Post by **rakall** » 21 Aug 2009 09:18

BijuShet wrote:OT Alert
I have a pooch about Arihant and the food served underwater. If they serve Chole Bhatura, will that affect the boats bouyancy 3 hours later?

You should probably see the movie "Down Periscope" !!

pkudva · Post by **pkudva** » 21 Aug 2009 11:09

one question guys, does the hull section shown in the pic at kalpakam consists of the turbines???

second where does the main power inside the sub come from in the cas of arihant???

Dileep · Post by **Dileep** » 21 Aug 2009 11:36

rakall wrote:
BijuShet wrote:OT Alert
I have a pooch about Arihant and the food served underwater. If they serve Chole Bhatura, will that affect the boats bouyancy 3 hours later?
You should probably see the movie "Down Periscope" !!

"Somebody find Buckman, launch him out a torpedo tube."

bart · Post by **bart** » 21 Aug 2009 14:24

BijuShet wrote:OT Alert
I have a pooch about Arihant and the food served underwater. If they serve Chole Bhatura, will that affect the boats bouyancy 3 hours later?

Please be very very careful discussing such stuff here. DDM plagiarists tend to lurk around here looking for copy-paste opportunities and you never know what might make the TOI headline tomorrow.

"Nuclear ship susceptible to poisonous gasses - DRDO denies but Times Now has the inside scoop"

Then you might have the BBC or the E-Con-Omist commenting about how IN has been trying to join the big league and become a blue-water navy but how it has a long way to go, especially since its held back by the diet, which has it's roots in Indian culture, where oppression of Dalits/Kashmiris is rife and Sati is regularly practiced.

Nirmal · Post by **Nirmal** » 22 Aug 2009 00:36

nachiket wrote:Nirmal, can you post the link please?

Was in Newkerala.com site but I can't seem to find it any more.

Raj Malhotra · Post by **Raj Malhotra** » 24 Aug 2009 16:47

Now getting back to Arihant. Some of links given above indicate that the dimensions of Arihant are 110-112mx15mx11-13m. Now compare this with Nerpa here. On that basis Arihant should be around 15,000 tons. But then info on this site may be incorrect.

I am more inclined to believe the info given at wiki here. Now if you look at these specifications the dimensions match Arihant. Note the draught of 9.6m means around 14-15 m height.

So I think Arihant is basically Akula made in the shape of Borei to carry SLBMs which will also match the Russian ambassader comments that it is a Akula.

Global security The ATV is said to be a modified Akula-I class submarine. The Russian Akula-2 and Yasen are also modified Akula-1. By this line of reasoning the ATV would be in league of Yasen, so the ATV would be 6500 tons light, 8500 tons armed and surfaced and 10000 tons submerged. It would be the biggest and heaviest combat naval vessel built in India to date.

Now the only issue is why the reactor is only 100MW. There are multiple answers:-

1. DRDO is not telling the truth and it is 190MWt

2. The reactor has been derated as it has been assembled in India and is being run with low enriched Uranium (20% rather than 45%). Further the idea is to optimise the stealth and not speed.

3. It is fourth generation reactor after Ok-650 wwith emphasis on silent operation and it has been able to achieve only 100MW and will be slowly uprated to 200MW

Shankar · Post by **Shankar** » 24 Aug 2009 17:57

So I think Arihant is basically Akula made in the shape of Borei to carry SLBMs which will also match the Russian ambassader comments that it is a Akula.

Global security The ATV is said to be a modified Akula-I class submarine. The Russian Akula-2 and Yasen are also modified Akula-1. By this line of reasoning the ATV would be in league of Yasen, so the ATV would be 6500 tons light, 8500 tons armed and surfaced and 10000 tons submerged. It would be the biggest and heaviest combat naval vessel built in India to date.

Now the only issue is why the reactor is only 100MW. There are multiple answers:-

1. DRDO is not telling the truth and it is 190MWt

2. The reactor has been derated as it has been assembled in India and is being run with low enriched Uranium (20% rather than 45%). Further the idea is to optimise the stealth and not speed.

3. It is fourth generation reactor after Ok-650 wwith emphasis on silent operation and it has been able to achieve only 100MW and will be slowly uprated to 200MW

shankarosky is so happy -atlast some truth about Arihant is coming out form reasonably reliable sources

Arihant is Nothing but modified Akula 2 with provision for launching ballistic missile of type Agni 3 so the Borei features

It has ok 650 reactor and nothing else and uses 35% plus enriched uranium .You cannot run a reactor designed for 45% enriched fuel at 20%

The 80MW figure touted by BARC is complete hog wash -you cannot run a sub as big as Arihant with 80MW T reactor it is 180 MW T reactor nothing less

That is why some in the govt said it will run faster than any sub in the region and that includes the LA class

Ther is only one sub that can sprint that fast and it is dear freinds Akula 2

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 24 Aug 2009 18:37

Very doubtfull about the 190 MW(t) reactor claim and as fast as akula which she need not be.

IMHO the final figures for Arihant will end up this way , 85 MW(t) ~ 6000 T surfaced and ~ 7600T submerged , with some shades of Borei on the hump part , that probably will be more clear when the sub is actually launched and pictures are made public.

JTull · Post by **JTull** » 24 Aug 2009 18:41

Raj Malhotra wrote: Now the only issue is why the reactor is only 100MW. There are multiple answers:-

1. DRDO is not telling the truth and it is 190MWt

2. The reactor has been derated as it has been assembled in India and is being run with low enriched Uranium (20% rather than 45%). Further the idea is to optimise the stealth and not speed.

3. It is fourth generation reactor after Ok-650 wwith emphasis on silent operation and it has been able to achieve only 100MW and will be slowly uprated to 200MW

I think the question to ask is whether it is ~100MWt or ~100MWe. My guess is that it is about 85 MWe (= 185 MWt with about 45% efficiency).

I don't think they would build an underpowered sub, where the most crucial technology to be validated is the reactor itself. DAE's first objective will be to standardise the basic reactor before letting IN embarck on more vessels in the Arihant class or any future variations. There will be enough excess reactor-capacity for changes in the sub design with minimal changes to the power unit.

Also, BTW you can't just derate a reactor by supplying it with 20% enriched uranium when it was designed for 45%. IMO, reactors are designed for specific neutron flux and such massive difference in concentration is just not possible.

dinesha · Post by **dinesha** » 24 Aug 2009 19:36

Until INS Arihant launch, T.S. Subramanian words were treated as gospel here in BRF.
Just because somebody’s paanwala disputed his figures of 80 MWe and 111m x 11m x 15m we treat him as just another DDM.
How come faceless and nameless paanwalas has more credibility here.

negi · Post by **negi** » 24 Aug 2009 20:29

Global Security page is full of tripe .

This one takes the poo-cake

The ATV is said to be a modified Akula-I class submarine. The Russian Akula-2 and Yasen are also modified Akula-1. By this line of reasoning the ATV would be in league of Yasen, so the ATV would be 6500 tons light, 8500 tons armed and surfaced and 10000 tons submerged. It would be the biggest and heaviest combat naval vessel built in India to date.

It is amusing to see how just weight figures(don't know how accurate are those) are being used to draw similarities where none exists .Not even superficially .

The posts on this thread are reminiscent of my Grandmother who does not find any difference between an IIT and an ITI (2 I's and one T ), and then kamputer engg==Clerk

So Ru reactor design==OK 650; mijjile VLS== BOREI class. But then since diving planes are on the coning tower then should we say it is a OHIO class ?

If things were so simple then even our neighbours will mate a non-existent nuke on exocets and even shove a chashma up Agosta's behind.

Surya · Post by **Surya** » 24 Aug 2009 20:50

why blame Global sec

look how eager Shankar is to use it to back his view\interests\ whatever.

Drevin · Post by **Drevin** » 24 Aug 2009 21:28

JTull wrote:I don't think they would build an underpowered sub, where the most crucial technology to be validated is the reactor itself. DAE's first objective will be to standardise the basic reactor before letting IN embarck on more vessels in the Arihant class or any future variations. There will be enough excess reactor-capacity for changes in the sub design with minimal changes to the power unit.

Actually its nice to talk on this topic of whether the followon arihant class subs will actually vary significantly from the first.

- The only motivation to do so is if while testing the sub over the next year some major flaw is discovered , which needs rectification/new solution. I find even this remote possibility.

- Also regarding more vls tubes: why would they build the first with fewer vls tubes than the next one. doesn't make sense.

- After so much effort in testing the design from test rigs .. the vls design would also pretty much be fixed for the next couple of arihant class subs. referring to internal mechanism of single vls tube.

NRao · Post by **NRao** » 24 Aug 2009 21:36

Global Security page is full of tripe .

The chances of it being are rather high.

Besides, they are ALSO speculating. And, perhaps, their speculation is based - to some extent - on reading BR pages and using their own intution.

Arun_S · Post by **Arun_S** » 24 Aug 2009 21:47

Other day I was on paan chewing bing at nearby nukkad with friendly Afghans. In the run up to Borei, many designs were hydrodynamically tested by Rubin. As a result Arihant is neither Borei nor Akula but in similar class.

The Yindu picture of PM MMS speaking in background of submarine with poorly constructed acoustic tile that looked like tarpoline that is unevenly streached, is indeed a leading bleeding edge acoustic technique that Lord Shri Vishwakarma will be proud of.

Raj Malhotra wrote:Now getting back to Arihant. Some of links given above indicate that the dimensions of Arihant are 110-112mx15mx11-13m.

Yes, 15m for the hump (not sail). Meaning 13.5m missile tube. Thus adding more fuel to the fire. Definitely more than the BR's A3SL conception.

So I think Arihant is basically Akula made in the shape of Borei to carry SLBMs which will also match the Russian ambassader comments that it is a Akula.
... . . . .. . The ATV is said to be a modified Akula-I class submarine. The Russian Akula-2 and Yasen are also modified Akula-1. By this line of reasoning the ATV would be in league of Yasen, so the ATV would be 6500 tons light, 8500 tons armed and surfaced and 10000 tons submerged. It would be the biggest and heaviest combat naval vessel built in India to date.[/url]

See my "tambul lok-apvaad" above.

Now the only issue is why the reactor is only 100MW. There are multiple answers:-
1. DRDO is not telling the truth and it is 190MWt

2. The reactor has been derated as it has been assembled in India and is being run with low enriched Uranium (20% rather than 45%). Further the idea is to optimise the stealth and not speed.

3. It is fourth generation reactor after Ok-650 wwith emphasis on silent operation and it has been able to achieve only 100MW and will be slowly uprated to 200MW

One can deduce to hearths content to consider: If its a competing design of Borei what will be its power plant; 85MWt?

Arun_S · Post by **Arun_S** » 24 Aug 2009 22:12

JTull wrote:
Raj Malhotra wrote: Now the only issue is why the reactor is only 100MW. There are multiple answers:-

1. DRDO is not telling the truth and it is 190MWt

2. The reactor has been derated as it has been assembled in India and is being run with low enriched Uranium (20% rather than 45%). Further the idea is to optimise the stealth and not speed.

3. It is fourth generation reactor after Ok-650 wwith emphasis on silent operation and it has been able to achieve only 100MW and will be slowly uprated to 200MW
I think the question to ask is whether it is ~100MWt or ~100MWe. My guess is that it is about 85 MWe (= 185 MWt with about 45% efficiency).

Saar with due respect 45% efficiency is not achived by unconstrained land based power plants much less a compact turbine on the craft (teh operating steam temprature has to be fantastic to make for 45%. IMVHO less plausible.

I don't think they would build an underpowered sub, where the most crucial technology to be validated is the reactor itself. DAE's first objective will be to standardise the basic reactor before letting IN embarck on more vessels in the Arihant class or any future variations. There will be enough excess reactor-capacity for changes in the sub design with minimal changes to the power unit.

Also, BTW you can't just derate a reactor by supplying it with 20% enriched uranium when it was designed for 45%. IMO, reactors are designed for specific neutron flux and such massive difference in concentration is just not possible.

Nuclear reactors work in a very narrow band of criticality, and changing fuel enrichment does not change power output.

putnanja · Post by **putnanja** » 24 Aug 2009 22:24

The video taken on the shore based reactor clearly had display boards stating that the miniature reactor was 100MWt. So, why are people still speculating? Is even BARC display boards not kosher enough now?

SNaik · Post by **SNaik** » 24 Aug 2009 22:56

http://books.google.lv/books?id=ai53zop ... q=&f=false

abhiti · Post by **abhiti** » 24 Aug 2009 22:58

Shankar wrote:The 80MW figure touted by BARC is complete hog wash -you cannot run a sub as big as Arihant with 80MW T reactor it is 180 MW T reactor nothing less. That is why some in the govt said it will run faster than any sub in the region and that includes the LA class. Ther is only one sub that can sprint that fast and it is dear freinds Akula 2

Saar Virginia class sub (377 feet-34feet-32feet-7800ton) published reactor is 29.84 MW (40,000hp). So not sure why Yindoo sub needs such a big reactor unless of course Amerika is playing games with numbers.