INS Arihant (ATV) News and Discussion -2

[negi]

a) Wasn't the point of Udduji's post that the Ohio Sonar was not as effective as the gazillion $$$ and years of experience suggest? That despite the size of the Ohio class and what you claim as technological superiority of the US resulted in an admittedly lower tech Kilo pinging their butts in the Indian Ocean.

What rubbish , such incidents are a common place amongst world navies in this case perhaps it would help to note that US has a full fledged naval base in Diego Garcia, Ohio class visits the base for swapping crews and replenishment.

Btw I did not come across any reports of the said encounter in question on the web.

One more question how do you chase away a Submarine and at the same time claim that other could not detect your presence ? i.e. How do you know if Ohio was not aware of Kilo's presence ?

b) Wasn't the point of it all being that despite the globe-trotting and two major operating bases within reach, the US learned very little of the Indian Ocean itself?

Huh they have a full fledged base in Diego Garcia, they are aware of the challenges posed by the modern SSK's hence they had the Swedish navy visit Massa with Gotlands to train and calibrate their sonars for SSK sized subamarines. Same holds true for their exrecises involving RAN's Collins class and Indian Navy's U-209 type Shishumar class (Malabar exercises).

c) Wasn't Shivji's point that there is a distinct possibility that the SDREs, especially someone of Dr. Paulraj's caiber, might have come up with a Sonar that might be better "operationally" than the Ohio class despite its SDRE size? I know SONARs are all about size (SDRE-UC vs BBC ), is there even a sliver of a possibility the SDRE might be better in bed than the BBC?

Dr. Paulraj is now in US (Standford Uty ?) . I know of ex-navy personnel from electrical and radio branches working in Unkil land. So the chances of Unkil getting to know about our capability is far more higher than we getting to know about their's.

And since all this ruckus started from someone claiming Arihant's sonar is better than that of Ohio's , lets have some data to support the claim to even continue down this line.

[Rahul M]

take a deep breath and cool down people, I don't want to see yet another friendly fire incident.

[negi]

looking at how nasa cannot make a screwdriver without a billion $ budget and costly project failures and the record of the JASSM that looked like a obvious shoo-in given the decades of experience with cruise missiles and proven turbofan engine, makes me think ultimately american money pit is not a sure fire guarantor of success.

Gurudev where is our equivalent of JASSM ? They have too many programmes running in parallel to be perturbed by a delay in one of such programmes, likewise Russians have been struggling with the Bulava .

one cannot conclude anything good or bad about ohio sonar vs arihant sonar based on a few think tank/pentagon slides.

Precisely and it applies both ways.

[Austin]

I think Kilo encountering Ohio and detecting is just red hearing , the chances that they may cross each other is remote as Ohio would be patrolling in their safe bastion.

BTW how would a Kilo know if the target detected is a Ohio or LA a decoy or something else , do we have signatures of Ohio or LA ? Did the Russian gave it to us if they have it ? Prolly highly unlikely.

Although to cheer it up our Kilos did manage to get close undetected ( within torpedo firing solution ) of a US CBG but this were peace time penetration/mission , which I should add is some times undertakenamong navy if they want to check their defences nothing hostile just the usual cat and mouse game.

[Austin]

Even if few Ohio is in our back waters and assuming it did had a chance encounter , How does the kilo crew know for sure that what they encountered is a Ohio and not a LA or something ? Do we maintain signature of American sub ?

If they did encounter a foreign sub and assuming its a Ohio on combat patrol ( where its on max silence ) or was it returning surfaced to its base to replenish , Does the Kilo have the endurance to match up with Ohio after travelling all the way to DG. It is not a easy task ( almost impossible ) for a conventional sub to keep up with Nuclear sub over period of days and gather its signature or spy on its activities and do all this without alerting the Ohio ?

I think its quite easy to build up such stories , just plant some stories on Internet which goes modernised kilo with Indian Sonar detected Virginia and some one finds it pastes it here and we end up discussing 10 pages about the chance encounter.

If the IN indeed managed this feat they will be very quite about it , submarine every where are known as silent service.

[disha]

India seems to have a penchant for calling everything a TD.

Now Arihant is a TD,
Agni was supposed to be a TD
India's TN is a TD

Yes the current N sub called Arihant is a TD, but when it finishes its trials it will be a full fledged battle ready N-sub will N tipped missiles.

And Google copied it. Everything from google is in some form of beta version.

[Kanson]

I guess, the current Arihant nose cone is based on Akula, so whatever Sonar Akula supports can be expected in Arihant. This is for current Arihant only.

Sonar will most probably be Indian or French..............?

According to the available open source information the expected Sonar for the ATV will be Indian.

[Kanson]

One noob pooch onlee:

Since the Arihant is a TD onlee and there are "Confirmed reports" of 2 more of the same class already in construction, does it mean that the entire set of 3 initial SSBNs are TDs ( since we are not waiting for results of the 1st one before starting work on the other 2)?

Also, the very first article on the Arihant in India today when the ATV was made known to the world the first time talked about a set of 3 indigenous SSBNs and 6 SSNs by 2020 to protect them. Any clue as to whether any work is ongoing on the SSNs since we should be seeing the 3 SSBNs in IN colors within 4-5 years max?

By default any ship first of its class is a TD. This TD terminology affliation was first purported by journalist claiming their source for this from IN. I guess Sandeep Uni was the first to do that, it was also claimed by Prasun Sengupta and he went on bragging that he was the first to say that and later this was used by ex- Adm, Arun Prakash and officals.

Politcally the reason for calling this as TD officially could be, well, obviously not to look aggressive, minimizing the actuall fall out of disclosing the ATV or could be anyother thing.

Technically, what this TD means is whatever the instruments, sensors, equipments, weapon systems that goes in the ATV is not finalised and there is scope of further iteration. I guess this could be the well accepted meaning for repeatedly calling the ATV as TD.

On numbers there are many flipflops. Latest news on this is from the ex-CNS which is a total of 5, including SSBN.

[Kanson]

I am new to this, but how feasible is it to have the size, it has, from the one photo published/sneaked? and yet, still have the weight of 6000 Tons, using composite materials, on the lines of the LCA?

Someone can at least tell me that the question is stupid.

You need both the beam and length to get approximately the displacement. 6000 tons is possible if the beam is around 10m and the length is around 100m.

[negi]

Why the surprise or disbelief if the incidents are commonplace? SDREs can't do it, eh?

Marten this whole crap stared with someone claiming Arihant's sonar is better than that on Ohio's, for a start can someone even provide a link to support that ?

Where did I question Kilo's capability to detect Ohio, I don't understand your point . I only asked for the relevant link to support the claim.

Who talked about them being chased away -- we're talking of pinging them. Did I claim at any point that they chased them away? Why put words in my mouth?

Read Udddu's post I suppose that is what you are basing your argument on if not then from where do you quote 'We are talking of pinging them' ?. More importantly Kilo detecting a Ohio does tell how good the USHUS is, however it does not tell how good the BQQ-6/15 suite on Ohio is that is why my emphasis on not quoting that incident out of context, for instance there was yet another incident involving Chinese navy and Indian Kilo where a lot of gibbersih was printed in Chinese and International media about IN sub being forced to surface which was categorically denied by the IN .

The point was simple: If such incidents are commonplace, why would the gazillions being poured into US tech be considered superior? No one is talking of Ushus being superior -- in terms of the $$$ and years of research, would one not expect a more superlative result???

Huh did you even notice how this debate even started ? A statement was made about Arihant's sonar being superior to that on Ohio .

So? I mentioned 2 bases.
You certainly follow the reasons for Swedes being chased for depleting their fleet at Muskö. The US tech obviously needed recalibration.

It is not just US everyone needs it , the difference is USN manages to get access to the platform in question to improve their capability.
IN would for that matter would love to get a sneak peak into the Agostas or even the U-214s .

Now, if the HMS Galland "defeated" SSNs during the Mediterranean wargames as did the Gotland that "got" Ronald Reagan much later while on lease, why would we deny the (admittedly inferior) Kilo any chances at all?

Firstly Gotland <> Kilo for former is half the size of a Kilo and is equipped with AIP propulsion , secondly when we talk about ability to detect a SSK we are not only talking about how good the Sonar suite of pursuer is but the acoustic signature of the submarine in question too so the Gotland episode has little relevance to the topic being discussed here.

Seriously, Negi... we can discount all SDREs, but your own statement and the reports from those incidents indicate US ASW tech was found deficient (by the USN, not me or anyone else on this forum).

Boss USN also claims that Gotland is the quietest SSK out there, they also claim that after their lease of Gotland they have improved their ability to detect modern SSKs .

http://www.cus.navy.mil/paofiles/27JAN06.pdf

Paulraj does not work on defense tech. I personally know at least three others working at senior levels in Raytheon HQ that have family very rooted in India. One of the research heads of the Patriot program is an SDRE. Chances are it works both ways. Or do SDREs only commit espionage when they have moved to the US? Methinks not.

This is even more ridiculous, I hope you are aware of the differences between working for a country of your residence (it cannot be termed espionage by any stretch of an imagination if that is the case then all SDREs working in USA are in a way indulging in espionage against India) vs passing information about about your host country's classified programme to another .

Someone claimed Ushus was better. I did not.

Fair enough.

For all the $$$ and years of superior research, US SSNs have been pinged/surprised/photographed by subs a decade older than themselves and fifty times as noisy.

What are these decade old subs ? The Sindhughosh class were built around the same time frame as that of the Ohios. Gotlands are newer afaik 90's vintage.

I suppose we can agree perhaps one of us SDREs chanced upon an Ohio and put forth a friendly Hi (since they would have known the Ohio would have "seen" them 150 miles away).

May be it happened but why bring it up to here ? How does it support the claim that USHUS or whatever is there on Arihant is superior to Ohio ?

Unfortunately I have no links. If there were an Internet link or an Admiral who would vouch for such an incident, I will let you know for sure. Until then, I would go by the assumption that the US is not getting as much return on its ASW research investments as the SDREs were with Dr Paulraj around.

[/quote]Return on investment is an economic aspect and I don't think we are discussing anything remotely related with ROI .

[negi]

According to the available open source information the expected Sonar for the ATV will be Indian.

Wiki says it is PAYAL .

[uddu]

Negi, I don't understand why you consider the Indian SDRE sonar to be inferior to that of TFTA sonar. It can be anything. But why are you denying the possibility of Indian Sonar being better. We can assume many things. About the incident it's a story which I assumed to explain a possibility. Austin, the Russians will not lose anything if they provide the Indians with U.S sub signatures. Also they will benefit from any accidental detection of U.S subs in the area by Indians and can have an agreement to inform Russia when such a thing happens. It's win-win situation for both. Similarly Negi, the same question can be asked "Can anyone provide a link to claim that the Ohio class's sonar is better than that of Kilo (USHUS)"?. Also why should you ping them if you detect them passively. Are you going to attack them or be aggressive towards them. What's the need to inform them that you have detected them? We are not Russians and we don't have to behave like the Russians. For the Russians and Chinese it may be a necessity but not for us.

[Singha]

>Do we maintain signature of American sub ?
I am sure we gather the data on all subs we detect, including american. russia does have more of a chance, but with american subs prowling
the IOR so do we , by lying in wait near their usual chokepoints like deep water channels coming out of DG, lombok strait etc.

>( almost impossible ) for a conventional sub to keep up with Nuclear sub over period of days and gather its signature
in peacetime, the Ohios have no reason to be running around at top speed. maybe they just cruise along at 12-15 knots for minimum noise.
the kilo could follow behind them for a while or just lie quietly on the bottom and record all movement.

american psyops and natgeo seem to have convinced people that yindu can do good work only in usa as part of the "us system".
this is the kind of argument certain NRIs make "I just couldnt fit into the indian env" and their proud old fathers boast to relatives
"I knew usa was the only place for placing my iit trained son"

[Austin]

^^^ So can PLAN and PN with its sub can track the movement of Indian sub , I am sure there is no end to speculation and I just need one link to prove that point

Did the person who claimed the Ohio tracking etc found the link source

[negi]

Negi, I don't understand why you consider the Indian SDRE sonar to be inferior to that of TFTA sonar. It can be anything. But why are you denying the possibility of Indian Sonar being better.

Uddu cut out this rhetoric , where did I say Indian Sonar is inferior to 'xyz' sonar ?
I am simply challenging the claim about USHUS being superior to Ohio's sonar ? What is the basis for that claim ?

Reminds me of folks from deaf and dumb fora who claim JF-17 bandar is better than F-22 raptor .

[negi]

Austin one possibility is RuN and IN having an understanding around sharing of relevant acoustic data for foreign submarines .

[uddu]

^^^ So can PLAN and PN with its sub can track the movement of Indian sub , I am sure there is no end to speculation and I just need one link to prove that point

Did the person who claimed the Ohio tracking etc found the link source

May be or may not be. It depends on their capabilities. You must have read about an old article about the cat and mouse game b/w Indian and Paki subs.

[uddu]

Uddu cut out this rhetoric , where did I say Indian Sonar is inferior to 'xyz' sonar ?
I am simply challenging the claim about USHUS being superior to Ohio's sonar ? What is the basis for that claim ?

Reminds me of folks from deaf and dumb fora who claim JF-17 bandar is better than F-22 raptor .

Negi, How is x>y and y>x be equal. May be you want to say x=y. Should be taught to nanna Mujahids.
Suddenly where did this Bandar come from. If Bandar is stealthier and smaller, surely it will be better than the raptor in terms of stealth. Bandar can detect the Raptor and hide before Raptor can see it.
Now you are dragging the whole sub into the issue. Let's just discuss sonar. Whatever is the basis of the claim, he knows better than you and me. So it's better not to refute it if you cannot prove otherwise. And trying to say that he knows nothing and I know everything is also bad.

[negi]

Uddu I see no point in carrying on with this nonsense, if you have nothing to substantiate your post about the alleged statement of an IN personnel claiming USHUS being superior to Ohio's Sonar , we can end this right here. I have nothing to add to this tamasha.

And yes I would take an IN personnel's word as the final verdict on this topic.

[Anant]

Negi,

I for one have understood what you have had to say. It was simple enough from the get go. I am sorry to see this thread generate into personal attacks, vitriol and off tangent analysis. I hope you don't stop posting. There are a minority of us who appreciate your knowledge and candor. All the best.

[shiv]

Isn't passive sonar all about listening, classifying and signal processing?

Nothing stops the US from dumping passive listening devices all over the Indian ocean. Similarly nothing stops the Indian navy from doing that. But the Indian navy can do more.

In fact if I was tasked with defending Indian shores I would first ping the entire neighborhood to map what exists and also record everything that can be heard to make a database. I would then use that database to check for variations.

There is nothing to stop India from filling up the Bay of Bengal and Arabian sea with noisy pings and then monitor everything that sends a signal back. There is no need for stealth - it can be done openly. But any sub entering Indian waters within range of those pings would find itself being pinged and might want to avoid that. The next step after detection of a hostile sub is to follow it and make a careful record of its acoustic signature as heard by passive sonar.

In fact if you own the water body in your backyard you could do lots of things that ensure that you have a great chance of picking anyone up despite his attempts at stealth and deception. I can think of several ways in which sonar reflecting (or generating) items could be placed in pre-surveyed areas and missing reflections from that would mean a stealthy object passing by.

I am no sonar expert - but unless I am grossly misinformed - this seems to be common sense.

[Austin]

Austin one possibility is RuN and IN having an understanding around sharing of relevant acoustic data for foreign submarines .

I am thinking along the same line for Akula lease what ever data we gather during its operational period they will probably be shared with Russians and the existing database that Russians have gathered over period of decades will be part of Nerpa database , intel ops and gathering will be very natural with such lease.

[negi]

^ Marten which id ?

[rohitvats]

Negi, taking this offline -- please expect e khat. Thank you for the last line of the previous post.

Shiv saar, nearly 4,000 Tata Power Consultancy developed Tadpoles were ordered in 2009 itself (source: Vayu Jan 2009). Am sure the IN has wired up at least the Arabian Sea and the Bay of Bengal well enough to have recorded movements of a few non-Indian subs.

Marten, NPOL Website has this to say about Tadpoles Sonobouy:

NATO compatible TADPOLE sonobuoy developed by NPOL is a high altitude deployable sonar supported by parachute for smooth landing in sea surface. Tadpole is inducted into INDIAN navy for operation since year 2000. It has a choice of two selectable operating depths and three different operating periods up to 8 hours. The unit can be made non-functional after the set time of operation. The production agency for this device is M/s TATA Power Consultancy Limited, Bangalore

So, how can these be used for underwater surveillance on a permanent basis - something like SOSUS?

[chackojoseph]

Did anyone ever say that Arihant is not a TD? Just curious.

[Gagan]

Well I am happy to report that after due search of google, I have not yet come up with a link to that Ohio class sonar vs DRDO sonar statement I made.
I however have read this somewhere, (maybe in the newspaper clippings I collect). This was not pulled out of the musharraf. If I find it, i'll post a scan or a link here.

[Austin]

^^^ Sure please do that , I will honor the jurno who made that mind boggling statement.

[nits]

May be or may not be. It depends on their capabilities. You must have read about an old article about the cat and mouse game b/w Indian and Paki subs.

Sir can you please post link of that article...

[negi]

I meant we have the tadpoles that are deployed during both exercises and forward ops. These are pretty much the best solution in hand.

Are tadpoles in active service with IN ?

As of now I thought we were only operating Russia's RGB family of active and passive buoys on IL-38,Tu-142 and the Kamovs.

[A Sharma]

From MOD Annual report 2010

Seabed Arrays : These are off-board sonars, deployed on the seabed, meant for continuous monitoring of strategic locations. Sea trials were carried out during March - April 2009. All the objectives of the project have been achieved. The system was proved against submarine target. The project was completed in 2009.

[babbupandey]

What is the approximate area each of these arrays can cover and also what is the maximum depth at which these arrays can be deployed?

[SNaik]

Austin one possibility is RuN and IN having an understanding around sharing of relevant acoustic data for foreign submarines .

I am thinking along the same line for Akula lease what ever data we gather during its operational period they will probably be shared with Russians and the existing database that Russians have gathered over period of decades will be part of Nerpa database , intel ops and gathering will be very natural with such lease.

This depends, Austin. The standard Russian issue of MGK-540 Skat-3 sonar suite which is the sonar on last pr.971 (Akula) subs includes Ajax-M digital library of acoustic signatures. This library may not be included in the transfer, because of the controversy of the sonar on Nerpa - is it Skat-3 or is it MGK-400EM Irbis (upgraded export version of Rubikon from Kilos). Ajax-M certainly is not a part of the upgrade package for Indian Kilos carried out by Sevmash.

[Prem Kumar]

From MOD Annual report 2010

Seabed Arrays : These are off-board sonars, deployed on the seabed, meant for continuous monitoring of strategic locations. Sea trials were carried out during March - April 2009. All the objectives of the project have been achieved. The system was proved against submarine target. The project was completed in 2009.

A Sharma: Dont know what the MOD means by "project was completed in 2009". If it means that we have a working seabed array in place, that is a very significant achievement. One of the big advantages of a seabed array is that the transducer size can be very large (unlike a towed array) - allowing for detection of ultra low frequency signals, which travel long distances. I suspect that the hydrographic survey ships are used to determine the optimum placement of these arrays.

Shiv: I think a SOSUS-like array can only be passive in nature. This is due to the power requirements.

[shiv]

Prem garu - I don't even know what SOSUS stands for, but the Indian Ocean, Bay of Bengal and Arabian sea are our backyard. Energy requirements are no problem if we sink active sonar equipment all over the place attached by cable to a power source. We will also know instantly if any of these malfunction or are interfered with.

[Anujan]

shiv-ji
Stringing a power cable is not that big a deal. As you know undersea fiber optic cables have a high voltage jacket around them. These are used to power the repeaters which repeat and amplify the signals. If they can supply power all the way across the pacific (and our very own Reliance operates a undersea cable all the way upto egypt) I am sure one can be laid for sonars.

[babbupandey]

Is it OK to depend on private cable operators network?
It must be publicly known the places which the internet cable passes through, along with repeater and power locations. I think those will be attacked first in case of war.
I think GOI should have its own dedicated power system.
Which brings me to question, does anyone know the maximum depth to which these systems can be deployed and how much area each of these can cover (like 1 array system of 1 sq.m. should be enough to cover an area of 250 sq. m. or something)

[negi]

Afaik transmitting information through an OFC only has to account for transmission losses and other leakages at splicing , however in case of powering an array of active piezoelectric transducers there would be loss during the energy conversion too apart from the transmission losses , and may be MTBF of of an ultrasonic transducer operating in ACTIVE mode also needs to be taken into consideration.

[shiv]

Someone spoke of a cat and mouse game. How do you "catch" a sub in peacetime? Here's one way. If you want to catch a sub that is tailing your aircraft carrier, one way is to make the sub sail faster - so it is noisier. Sail your fleet into an area bristling with your listening devices and at a predetermined signal, just stop all engine and propeller noise suddenly from your fleet and start listening for the tailing sub. Give him time to react to the sudden stoppage of noise and then flood the sea with active pings.

None of these thins is guaranteed to get him, but will certainly keep him on his toes. Once you catch him, keep on pinging him and tailing him and never lose "sight" of him. If he is a diesel sub - it might even be possible to get him to surface for breath. Or else watch him do a downhill ski.

[Philip]

Conventional naval wisdom says that in littoral waters,where shallow coastal waters are muddy,thermoclines exist,etc.,smaller conventional subs are far more difficult to detect than a large nuclear powered sub for a variety of reasons.AIP makes such subs even more stealthy.With the advent of UUVs,operating from a mother sub,an SSN can stay off the coast and use its UUVs or even special forces midget subs for surveillance,mine laying,and other covert tasks.The RN's new Astute SSNs claim that their sonars are sensitive enough to detect a cruise ship laving NY harbour from UK waters! Since quieting and sonar performance are the most clasiffied of all naval secrets,there is little point in speculating about sonar performance between Kilos and Ohios,which in any case is apples to oranges.No one is going to give away classified info on the subject, as well as whether there are any underwater hydrophone arrays off our naval bases or choke points such as the A&N islands.

Reg. the "3" subs,ATVs.etc., there are several reports at the time of launch tht another two hulls were already complete.The same hull with modifications appears to be the basis for our future SSGNs too.

[tsarkar]

Seabed arrays are expensive and maintenance intensive. One Russian AS-28 got stuck in 2005 repairing a seabed array and Russians had to request British assistance to rescue the crew.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AS-28
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/u ... 552572.ece

“The system, which is used to listen out for other ships and submarines, is anchored with a weight of about 60 tons.”

The Indian project was completed, just like Trishul or Abhay project was completed. There is no public information on the success or failure of the completed project. Success will be known when CCS approves production.