Armoured Vehicles Discussion Thread

Kanson · Post by **Kanson** » 04 Mar 2010 18:58

manjgu wrote:kanson.. i cant understand you lament about british tradition and why is it holding back IA ?? what negativity do you see in that?? i think IA is contant evolving and responding adequaltely.

See, i guess you are reading my post(pg32) wrongly. I'm not lamenting abt British tradition. I'm all abt Indians not evolving their own indentity which is much better or as good as(subjectively) what British held at that time. IA as independent entity exits for more than 60 yrs. And people are talking abt falling Indian standards. Why? It is not a self-admission that it hasnt evolved. I take this example give below to put forward my point.

more than IA , i think it is the netas and babus ( majorly) who are holding back the nation. imagine what will a babu do if everything is privatized ??

recently met a british national who also happens to a be some kind of nuclear scientist/ engg. he said it is the stated policy of british govt not to import major arms and to focus on indegenous development

It is useless to blame anything on netas& babus. If then you dont need leadership in army; only netas and babus can run the Army, infact i guess that is what happening. Why you feel IA cant make changes. Let say, Chief, Commanders, and all Generals collectively make a decision of not importing any weapon by calling a conference with CII and media and forward that to Def. Ministry and President, let say, which netas and babus have the gall to import any weapon. This way you make a mark, you bring a tradition, you move forward for your own indentity.
Dont we have a stark example of Siachen de-militarization before us.

Kanson · Post by **Kanson** » 04 Mar 2010 19:07

Singha wrote:>> key tech from Arjun will be invaluable in designing the FMBT which can be fully indigeneous..

I can 3000% guarantee if India doesnt deploy a sizeable number of Arjun, and continue to
improve it in tranches like the western/israel did, India will NEVER again design and build a indigenous tank. at best we would be able to supply a few add-ons to a foreign tank like we did for MKI or our IN ships. and I am not even talking about the 1500hp engine which I know we cannot do in foreseeable future unless Telco buys out MTU.

the key people and knowledge will be lost in short order and there will be nobody to groom
and train the next generation of designers and nothing for them to work on.

finding people to design these beasts is harder than placing an ad in TOI "Ascent". people
in india involved in core automotive design is not much....and civilian sector pays better....perhaps tata/mahindra can be utilized for FMBT but they need arjun work NOW to ramp up.

“Tanks have a certain shelf life and now we need a new deign looking into the future. We now have a base and expertise to start on the futuristic tank,” Lt Gen KDS Shekhawat

This is the reason i say, IA dont have that culture to Build and Use. I wont be having that if it is not taking the plunge in Arjun project. Already there is no such thing for Artillery. Even the Chinese premier made of mockery of that. If IA cant learn no body can spoon feed them.

Kanson · Post by **Kanson** » 04 Mar 2010 19:12

somnath wrote: As for Arjun, as I said before, I think it is a "dead" project beyond whats been ordered....But if DRDO plays it smart, key tech from Arjun will be invaluable in designing the FMBT which can be fully indigeneous..

That is the sure path to defeat. Becoz, history shows that this is the way IA moved constantly the goalpost whenever Arjun was ready to the laid standards.

somnath · Post by **somnath** » 04 Mar 2010 19:32

Singha wrote:>> and I am not even talking about the 1500hp engine which I know we cannot do in foreseeable future unless Telco buys out MTU.

the key people and knowledge will be lost in short order and there will be nobody to groom
and train the next generation of designers and nothing for them to work on.

perhaps tata/mahindra can be utilized for FMBT but they need arjun work NOW to ramp up.

Thats exactly right..As I said in an earlier post, the key would be for DRDO to junk Avadi completely and rope in the Tatas/Mahindras as a development/production partner...And start the process today..there are lots of key Arjun tech (the kanchan armour, the BMS, the electronics) that would be relevant for the FMBT...And if the Tatas get a 1000 tank order, who knows, acquiring MTU is not beyond them either!

The sort of appetite corporates are showing on large M&A, there is no reason why they wont show the same appetite for a sector as large as Indian defence...

Rahul M · Post by **Rahul M** » 04 Mar 2010 19:37

Sanku wrote:Rahul M
I will wait for the parliament to know, Col Shukla is not the final source in these matters.

I will also wait for the final price of Arjun when the new price of T 90 is explained.

I will also compare their specs, then.

you are saying that we don't know the final price of either T-90 or arjun right ?

fine by me, as long as you also agree to stick to this approach and don't make the point about how T-90 is cheaper while beating on the arjun !

Sanku wrote: Right now the comparison points are all over the place -- and as I said, Col Shukla is an interesting source, but he has been wrong before so no need to take him as definitely correct now.

all over the place ? hardly ! going by the open sources t-series has no ground to stand upon.
the situation is worse if you go beyond that.

Singha wrote:................... and I am not even talking about the 1500hp engine which I know we cannot do in foreseeable future unless Telco buys out MTU........................

great post singha ji but I'll pick one line to continue.

speaking of engines, the T-90's much vaunted 1000 hp engine can't generate more than 850hp in real life, one can guess how 'agile and quick' it is. with its higher weight it is even more of a laggard than the T-72 ! was the parliament notified of it by the IA ?

did the T-90's perform to their brochure levels during trials ? or even close to the brochure claims ? did even one tank of the many tested have a trouble-free "by the books" trial ? how many had to have their engines replaced ? why did the IA gave go ahead to T-90 acquisition in large numbers even after none of the main sensors (either the TI or the commander/gunners NVD) worked to their satisfaction ?
why is the same or even comparable level of consideration conspicuously missing in the case of arjun ?

sanku ji, answers to these questions too are not given to the parliament and yet they are no less true. if you have anyone closely associated with the T-90 eval, please ask them these questions.

further, why are the sensors installed as black boxes on a "warranty void if seal broken" type of agreement and army maintenance people not allowed to access them ?

chakkunny · Post by **chakkunny** » 04 Mar 2010 19:56

The picture of the Abram's carcass posted by Sankuji is one of a scuttled tank, or one tagged so in the albums that were linked by a subsequent poster. Beyond visual rhetoric and bad blood, such images do not contribute to a meaningful discussion. We have no idea of the original casualities from looking at the picture.

Granted that the US is not the only military that scuttles its tanks that cannot be recovered.

Edited Later: The image I'm referring to is here: http://picasaweb.google.com/andy.adyns/ ... 2368105794

Surya · Post by **Surya** » 04 Mar 2010 20:01

somnath

there is a big difference in what you are saying and what Singha and others are saying.

You cannot junk the Arjun, transfer said employees to a private sector company and then start rolling out a new design tank.

You need to have a reasonably continous production and more importantly deployment process with feedback to improve in tranches.

Obviously it will be better if a Tatas or L&T does it.

We have all see the result of the IAFs shortsightedness after the Marut and what that cost us.

We have seen with the HDW submarines and all the skill lost subsequently

Sanku · Post by **Sanku** » 04 Mar 2010 20:02

Rahul M wrote: fine by me, as long as you also agree to stick to this approach and don't make the point about how T-90 is cheaper while beating on the arjun !

But birather when did I beat the Arjun?

This is getting tiring folks. I never said that.

Sanku wrote: Right now the comparison points are all over the place -- and as I said, Col Shukla is an interesting source, but he has been wrong before so no need to take him as definitely correct now.
all over the place ? hardly ! going by the open sources t-series has no ground to stand upon.
the situation is worse if you go beyond that.

Yes, it is, for example as of now there is no clarity on what is the price of which equipement with which suite (which TI which Active protection etc etc)

That is what I am talking off.

sanku ji, answers to these questions too are not given to the parliament and yet they are no less true. if you have anyone closely associated with the T-90 eval, please ask them these questions.

Rahul; there is a reason we stay off the chaiwalla to an extent right, because I can with some justification also mention points countering the same. So lets just not go there unless we have a very strong source.

TI issues have been discussed ad naseum. The issue with Arjun's that the Army complained about were much more basic issues than TI.

Anabhaya · Post by **Anabhaya** » 04 Mar 2010 20:03

<sarcasm>Right now the only way to ensure IA buys more Arjuns is to raise stink about corruption in T-90S deal and get a case registered by CBI. Get the T-90 blacklisted.

</sarcasm>

munna · Post by **munna** » 04 Mar 2010 20:05

Anabhaya wrote:<sarcasm>Right now the only way to ensure IA buys more Arjuns is to raise stink about corruption in T-90S deal and get a case registered by CBI. Get the T-90 blacklisted. </sarcasm>

Its not far off given our army's penchant for all things sensational nowadays! It really hurts to see the level to which this venerable institution is being dragged. Somehow we all are responsible for it and the apathy towards Arjun is but a symptom and not the disease itself.

Samay · Post by **Samay** » 04 Mar 2010 20:06

somnath wrote:

Thats exactly right..As I said in an earlier post, the key would be for DRDO to junk Avadi completely and rope in the Tatas/Mahindras as a development/production partner...

All that depends on what MoD thinksand planning ,. There are thousands of possibilities what we discover, same is not with MoD.
They have their own plethora of options which is not stressed in media and we do not discuss,. One such option is T95 . Russians have already indicated that are in talks with DRDO, on the development of NG tank..
Whatever may be done for futuristic tank , it will be a foreign-domestic JV ,thats for sure , preferably DRDO-Russia , not some private house unless it is separately stressed upon by the GoI,and that is where media will show activity of private cos..

Things like present acquisitions (orders to BEL) are moving in favour of PSUs , and that is the sore,.

It is present culture of JV(or joint development) like with Russia or Israel that has given these PSUs a breather, otherwise things would be different

d_berwal · Post by **d_berwal** » 04 Mar 2010 20:08

speaking of engines, the T-90's much vaunted 1000 hp engine can't generate more than 850hp in real life, one can guess how 'agile and quick' it is. with its higher weight it is even more of a laggard than the T-72 ! was the parliament notified of it by the IA ?

can you provide a source for that ?

did the T-90's perform to their brochure levels during trials ? or even close to the brochure claims ? did even one tank of the many tested have a trouble-free "by the books" trial ? how many had to have their engines replaced ? why did the IA gave go ahead to T-90 acquisition in large numbers even after none of the main sensors (either the TI or the commander/gunners NVD) worked to their satisfaction ?
why is the same or even comparable level of consideration conspicuously missing in the case of arjun ?

accept the TI, can you provide the source ?

the bolded part shows hw much u know about T-90

Sanku · Post by **Sanku** » 04 Mar 2010 20:14

Kanson wrote: Why you feel IA cant make changes. Let say, Chief, Commanders, and all Generals collectively make a decision of not importing any weapon by calling a conference with CII and media and forward that to Def. Ministry and President, let say, which netas and babus have the gall to import any weapon.

You should be directing films buddy.

Dont we have a stark example of Siachen de-militarization before us.

Where the Chiefs called for a press conference and babu's were not involved? And no other parties?
And that was to preserve status quo, wonder if that small detail means anything to you.

Yes and IA should also provide the next Vishnu avatar in form of Kalki

Indeed the army has much to be blamed for by these standards

Kanson buddy, Arjun test issues and delays which resulted in GSQR changes are well documented, by GoI itself, stop beating a dead horse.

Rahul M · Post by **Rahul M** » 04 Mar 2010 20:16

Rahul; there is a reason we stay off the chaiwalla to an extent right, because I can with some justification also mention points countering the same. So lets just not go there unless we have a very strong source.

sanku ji, I usually get off when it becomes your word vs mine type of argument, so I'll do so now.
I will still request you to ask these specific questions to the T-90 chaiwalas you know.

TI issues have been discussed ad naseum. The issue with Arjun's that the Army complained about were much more basic issues than TI.

I mentioned many other points other than TI, you seem to have ignored that and some more that I didn't. suffice to say the situation was far worse than the arjun.
with arjun the main problem was QC, even at the prototype stage. building a state-of-the-art machine with non-standard items is never easy, especially for a country like ours where the suppliers are non existent. these problems are solvable only when a full-scale production upto economically viable numbers is launched. even a complete novice could understand that but the IA chose not to and arjun never got that chance.

with the T-90 the problem was more one of design itself, the equipment was simply not good enough even according to IA requirements but yet we went ahead with the acquisition.

Kanson · Post by **Kanson** » 04 Mar 2010 20:22

Arre "intelligent" Sanku ji...before going further, pls learn how to read CAG report and for that matter anyother report. Quoting selectively, making a point out of context, talking in circles, repeating the samething over and again are seems to be your hallmarks...So dont give lecture to others...

Arjun test issues and delays which resulted in GSQR changes are well documented, by GoI itself

Sell this to whoever wants to listen to you..i'm neither new to Arjun or GoI...

Sanku · Post by **Sanku** » 04 Mar 2010 20:24

Anabhaya wrote:<sarcasm>Right now the only way to ensure IA buys more Arjuns is to raise stink about corruption in T-90S deal and get a case registered by CBI. Get the T-90 blacklisted. </sarcasm>

And you think it would not have been tried if possible?

Arjun does not benefit a ton of folks? No vested interests?

Rahul M wrote:sanku ji, I usually get off when it becomes your word vs mine type of argument, so I'll do so now.

Indeed Rahul, that is usually a good thing, I agree. I will ask Chaiwallas anyway as you say -- but do lets discuss with open source credible points please, there are still plenty without going into the chaiwalla territory.

Rahul M · Post by **Rahul M** » 04 Mar 2010 20:25

d_berwal wrote:
speaking of engines, the T-90's much vaunted 1000 hp engine can't generate more than 850hp in real life, one can guess how 'agile and quick' it is. with its higher weight it is even more of a laggard than the T-72 ! was the parliament notified of it by the IA ?
can you provide a source for that ?

did the T-90's perform to their brochure levels during trials ? or even close to the brochure claims ? did even one tank of the many tested have a trouble-free "by the books" trial ? how many had to have their engines replaced ? why did the IA gave go ahead to T-90 acquisition in large numbers even after none of the main sensors (either the TI or the commander/gunners NVD) worked to their satisfaction ?
why is the same or even comparable level of consideration conspicuously missing in the case of arjun ?
accept the TI, can you provide the source ?

the bolded part shows hw much u know about T-90

on open forum ? no.

and if you are arguing against the bolded part then I must say that I will have my own doubts about your access to the T-90's eval.
you are free to disbelieve me since I am not going to provide a source for that but let's keep off the personal jibes shall we ?

very well, try and talk to EME people who did the initial eval on induction and see what they say about the night sights. I'm sure you know which unit that will be.

Sanku · Post by **Sanku** » 04 Mar 2010 20:25

Kanson wrote:Arre "intelligent" Sanku ji...before going further, pls learn how to read CAG report and for that matter anyother report. Quoting selectively, making a point out of context, talking in circles, repeating the samething over and again are seems to be your hallmarks...So dont give lecture to others...

Given the quality of expression and use of language on the forum, in fact I would not be surprised if not being able to read is indeed the root cause of the issue.

d_berwal · Post by **d_berwal** » 04 Mar 2010 20:28

Tell me one thing Rahoul Ji,

who used NVD in T-90 is it Driver or Gunner or Commander ?

and Who uses TI is it Driver or Gunner or Commander ?

IT was 5 & 6 which did eval and got trained in Ru.. some other elements were also involved ...

most of the EME officers cant even diff between welded turret T-90 and non welded one...

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 04 Mar 2010 20:56

most seem to have driven in canals and ditches at night/dust or due to driver error.
some have been taken out by IEDs and mines.

but in none of the pix do I the immense turret suffered any damage

the probably
salvage and reuse the turret and gun, while writing off the hull.

sawant · Post by **sawant** » 04 Mar 2010 20:57

well if every1 including the army agrees that T72 < Arjun < T90, then why not simply start with Mk1 version of Arjun to replace old and < T72 tanks... why to hoard on to those old rusty tanks ... this way production starts, Avadi keeps the technicians and experience. Also if Arjun is a heaver tank, why not use it for Indian defence only... no need to upgrade bridges near the border etc...or for elite troops or tank commanders... since it has better armor... its always better to have a home-made tank that we can mass produce and when produced in numbers can overwhelm the enemy .. like the T-34 ...

username changed to sawant.
Rahul.

AnimeshP · Post by **AnimeshP** » 04 Mar 2010 20:59

d_berwal wrote:Tell me one thing Rahoul Ji,

who used NVD in T-90 is it Driver or Gunner or Commander ?

and Who uses TI is it Driver or Gunner or Commander ?

IT was 5 & 6 which did eval and got trained in Ru.. some other elements were also involved ...

most of the EME officers cant even diff between welded turret T-90 and non welded one...

Wow ... I guess most of the EME officers are just friggin' idiots ... wonder how they have been managing repairs and maintenance to all the IA equipment since 1944 ...
the know-it-alls and armchair generals on BRF are the expert authoroties ... I guess we should disband EME and get experts on this forum to take their job up ....

Kanson · Post by **Kanson** » 04 Mar 2010 21:06

Sanku wrote:
Kanson wrote:Arre "intelligent" Sanku ji...before going further, pls learn how to read CAG report and for that matter anyother report. Quoting selectively, making a point out of context, talking in circles, repeating the samething over and again are seems to be your hallmarks...So dont give lecture to others...
Given the quality of expression and use of language on the forum, in fact I would not be surprised if not being able to read is indeed the root cause of the issue.

Becoz, there is no point in expressing anything, if one is not listening. See, there are examples from ISRO and other institutions. I know how Kalam built the drdo. Howmany believed when he said in early 90s, he want to make India a superpower by 2000, you think? Many laughed before him hearing that. It took Goldman chachas and mamas assestment to believe we are truly sailing in that path. And I say he is a visionary. He created an aura and made people work towards that goal. Against many odds, India could make progress with LCA, how ? It is becoz of leadership. Its a public knowledge know that we embarked ABM program in late 90s. Howmany of us could have believed India could pull it off at that time when it was started? Difference is possible becoz of leadership.

Sanku · Post by **Sanku** » 04 Mar 2010 21:16

Kanson wrote:
Sanku wrote:"Kanson">>Arre "intelligent" Sanku ji...before going further, pls learn how to read CAG report and for that matter anyother report. Quoting selectively, making a point out of context, talking in circles, repeating the samething over and again are seems to be your hallmarks...So dont give lecture to others...

Given the quality of expression and use of language on the forum, in fact I would not be surprised if not being able to read is indeed the root cause of the issue.
Difference is possible becoz of leadership.

EDITED, it can onlee be cos of IAs are all no knowing ppl who hate Arjun with passion and are alwys moving posts of goal

---------

There I agree -- happy?

---------

BTW on a serious note, leadership is absolutely the key, but short of a COMPLETE change in how GoI works, the needed leadership HAS to come from the MoD. That is how its is fortunately and to some extent unfortunately.

negi · Post by **negi** » 04 Mar 2010 21:25

Let us revisit the SHAM again .

Arjun not ordered because:

1. Did not meet GSQR when decision to order T-90s was made .

Major Issues:

1. Hydro pneumatic suspension issues , reliability issues (MTBF)
2. Renk Transmission (this ones pretty shady with Defense Secretary having to give a public clarification )

IRONY:

1. T-90 order in mass numbers (>1300)

Argument: Arjun not ready , easier to induct courtesy T-72 experience.

Joke:

1. No AC , No APU.

2. Catherine FC TI goes kaput in desert heat (while Arjun's Sagem TI works fine without AC ).

3. Suspension issues (those uber reliable torsional bars).

Question is WHAT GSQR was met by the T-90 to deserve such a HUGE order ?

Ok and I guess since everyone is quoting from same set of newspaper dailies and open sources on WWW , it is clearly been established that when it comes to offering protection and crew survivability Arjun fairs far better then the T-90 .

Lastly for those who have worn the uniform and others from IA background who have hitched a ride in the T-72 do they see any space for the APU/AC and the BMS without increasing the TURRET size ?

or perhaps Low silhouette can compensate for all of the above while crew can drive in desert with open hatch.

Rahul M · Post by **Rahul M** » 04 Mar 2010 21:36

d_berwal wrote:most of the EME officers cant even diff between welded turret T-90 and non welded one...

I agree with animesh that such general tarring with brush is not remotely acceptable. this is really mean tactics to win an argument.

_____________________________

madsaw wrote:well if every1 including the army agrees that T72 < Arjun < T90,

saat kand ramayan padke sita kiski baap ?!

leave alone everyone, even in the army, only a handful say that T90>arjun and I suspect they too know the truth in their hearts.

the reality is something like : T-72M1 =< T-72BU also known as T-90 < arjun.

in fact the funny thing is that the proposed T-72 upgrade, the Tank-Ex will be better protected than the 'tank of the future' T-90 !

chackojoseph · Post by **chackojoseph** » 04 Mar 2010 22:19

negi wrote:Question is WHAT GSQR was met by the T-90 to deserve such a HUGE order ?

You are missing the ultimate irony.

Arjun GSQR is for a tank which western nations field. So, Arjun does not meet GSQR, 1300 Russian tanks are ordered. I would have agreed if they would have ordered Challenger, but, T-90?

Sanku · Post by **Sanku** » 04 Mar 2010 22:54

chackojoseph wrote:
negi wrote:Question is WHAT GSQR was met by the T-90 to deserve such a HUGE order ?
You are missing the ultimate irony.

Arjun GSQR is for a tank which western nations field. So, Arjun does not meet GSQR, 1300 Russian tanks are ordered. I would have agreed if they would have ordered Challenger, but, T-90?

<sarc>Yes they should have ordered Challengers in 1974, I agree</sarc>

Actually instead of berating the IA it should be praised, Arjun could have well ended up like Marut, much much earlier than today, IA could have totally washed its hands off it much earlier, along with the entire doctrine of western tanks (it may still, but at least there is more hope right now of Arjun working out)

Negi Bhai, Arjun was ordered before T 90, even that small order could not be fulfilled on time.

In any case there has never been any statement by GoI that Arjun orders are linked to T 90, even T 90s were ordered irrespective of Arjun and more because of Pakistan.

The T 90 vs Arjun debate is either sensational fodder for media or a way to BRFites to vent their frustration at poor state of affairs.

The T 90 vs Arjun debate is not a real debate. It means nothing, has no answers on how to improve the Mil-Ind complex, has no way forward, its scab picking at best.

Forget the past, can CVRDE today fight for the new GSQR for a tank which will be asked for in future and win in in fair competition? That is the question that needs be asked.

Finally as to the question what GSQRs were passed by T 90? Answer is simple -- it was better than what the enemies had, and worked robustly as advertised and could be actually pushed into service by supplies from Russia.

As simple as that -- and its not IAs fault that Indian mil-ind complex is late lateef, that is not its task.

Instead of worrying about the REAL issue, the state of Mil-Ind complex, we are covering every other ground. Including how leadership of Kalki avatar level must come from IA otherwise its a failure.

KrishG · Post by **KrishG** » 04 Mar 2010 23:11

Sanku wrote: Arjun was ordered before T 90, even that small order could not be fulfilled on time.

DRDO/Avadi had 2 options :
1. Deliver all the 124 tanks within 3-4 years no matter what problems the tank could have.
2. Sort out all the issues pointed out by the IA during previous trials and make sure that production version doesn't have those drawbacks.

Now the second option has sure worked in favour of DRDO as it has increased Arjun's acceptness among IA by addressing the problems.

Sanku · Post by **Sanku** » 04 Mar 2010 23:30

KrishG wrote:
Sanku wrote: Arjun was ordered before T 90, even that small order could not be fulfilled on time.
DRDO/Avadi had 2 options :
1. Deliver all the 124 tanks within 3-4 years no matter what problems the tank could have.
2. Sort out all the issues pointed out by the IA during previous trials and make sure that production version doesn't have those drawbacks.

Now the second option has sure worked in favour of DRDO as it has increased Arjun's acceptness among IA by addressing the problems.

Actually the promise was to combine 1 AND 2.

CVRDE/Avadi knew of the full list of issues when they signed up. They promised to deliver a working product which met all the GSQRs including AUCRT level product by that time.

KrishG · Post by **KrishG** » 05 Mar 2010 00:22

Sanku wrote: Actually the promise was to combine 1 AND 2.

CVRDE/Avadi knew of the full list of issues when they signed up. They promised to deliver a working product which met all the GSQRs including AUCRT level product by that time.

1. Sanctions and subsequent changes is supplier chain.

2. Army's demand for additional capabilities just after the pilot batch had been delivered.

During subsequent production, Army insisted upon the demonstration of medium fording capabilities of MBT Arjun. Both CVRDE and HVF continuously worked on war footing, to meet the stringent requirement of medium fording to a height of 2.1m in water with preparation time of 30 minutes as retro-fitment solution and demonstrated successfully to Defence Minister Shri A. K. Antony and other dignitaries on 2nd July 2007.

Subsequently, the production tanks were incorporated with all medium fording modifications and the next batch of nine tanks were handed over by Sep 2007.

3. IIRC delivery was stopped during the AUCRT as CVRDE wanted feedback from the Army on any problems needing rectification.

The outcome of AUCRT trials raised the confidence levels of the users over the reliability and endurance of MBT Arjun and they confirmed that the overall performance of the MBT Arjun during the stringent AUCRT trials was satisfactory and cleared the production tanks with minor modifications suggested during AUCRT, for induction. Both CVRDE and HVF along with DGQA agencies worked out methodologies to introduce all AUCRT modifications within shortest time frame and the next batch of 17 tanks were handed over to Army by 3rd March 2009.

Link

RayC · Post by **RayC** » 05 Mar 2010 10:24

[quote="Rahul M"]sorry but fat chance of that happening, never mind what DRDO-walas come up with ! in fact they have a better chance of selling to the russian army than they have of selling to the IA.

Could you be kind enough to explain this statement?

India is a subsidiary of Russia?

News to me.

Let us not insult that Minister for Defence Production and say he is clueless.

chackojoseph · Post by **chackojoseph** » 05 Mar 2010 10:32

Surya wrote:If you want to see an IED effect on the the T series

Look at BRs IPKF section
Thats the diff we have been talking about - generally the M1. Merk crews survive. The T series almost never do

Can you please link me to this section and page?

chackojoseph · Post by **chackojoseph** » 05 Mar 2010 11:15

T-90 page on wiki

and utilizes India's Kanchan explosive reactive armored plates

They mean composite plates? Kanchan is composite. And Kanchan is used in T-90?

Vivek K · Post by **Vivek K** » 05 Mar 2010 11:44

The IA stands exposed. The lack of transparency in procurement is suggestive of corruption. In this matter the double standards (chit bhi mera aur pat bhi mera) applied are evident by:
1) When we state that the minister levelled the charge of sabotage against the IA, d_berwal states - do you believe our politicians.
2) Now RayC states that the Minister should not be insulted (when no insult was hurled at him).

The procurement mafia's brazenness is astounding. I agree with Rahul that DRDO has a better chance of selling the Arjun to the Russian army than to the IA. And perhaps the Russians could put it to good use.

rohitvats · Post by **rohitvats** » 05 Mar 2010 11:50

chackojoseph wrote:T-90 page on wiki

and utilizes India's Kanchan explosive reactive armored plates
They mean composite plates? Kanchan is composite. And Kanchan is used in T-90?

Won't that be the ultimate irony of it all....

rohitvats · Post by **rohitvats** » 05 Mar 2010 11:55

Actually instead of berating the IA it should be praised, Arjun could have well ended up like Marut, much much earlier than today, IA could have totally washed its hands off it much earlier, along with the entire doctrine of western tanks (it may still, but at least there is more hope right now of Arjun working out)

You don't and cannot wash your hands off a project after writing a GSQR for it.

Negi Bhai, Arjun was ordered before T 90, even that small order could not be fulfilled on time.

Care to tell the public, how many were ordered and not delivered?

chackojoseph · Post by **chackojoseph** » 05 Mar 2010 12:08

rohitvats wrote:Won't that be the ultimate irony of it all....

If , so say goodbye to "light weight" T-90 and validation of Kanchan Armor being superior.

Sanku · Post by **Sanku** » 05 Mar 2010 12:34

rohitvats wrote:
Actually instead of berating the IA it should be praised, Arjun could have well ended up like Marut, much much earlier than today, IA could have totally washed its hands off it much earlier, along with the entire doctrine of western tanks (it may still, but at least there is more hope right now of Arjun working out)
You don't and cannot wash your hands off a project after writing a GSQR for it.

Why not? It has happened before and can happen again. They have not married to a product because they wrote a GSQR for it.

Negi Bhai, Arjun was ordered before T 90, even that small order could not be fulfilled on time.
Care to tell the public, how many were ordered and not delivered?

[/quote]

I already did, didnt I? Any way question for you, please find out what was the exact conditions of purchase of 124 tanks in 2000 and its delivery schedule.

Thank you

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KrishG --> IA has not asked for any significant changes AFTER 1994 as a must have precondition before induction . The last set of changes asked ofr in 1997 were minor. And pretty much NO change after 2000.

The must have precondition features before induction were all standard stuff in GSQR which had been promised but was not met. Basics issues which were left over.

Finally if
1) Sanctions cripple CVRDE/Avadi to the extent that their entire production schedule goes for a toss, or
2) finally the first set of production tanks (the first 15 itself -- which themselves have been delayed) runs into issues during AUCRT whose turn around takes substantial time--

this goes to show is the REAL state of the CVDRE-Avadi complex. In reality.

That reality can not be wished away and is THE critical issue that we (India) needs to fix ASAP.

Hoping to have a Indian tank inducted in large numbers with that kind of background establishment is well "hopin and prayin"; ranting against IA, and cussing them and looking for Gremlins under every nook and corner is NOT going to make a whit of difference.

And it is NOT IAs job to upgrade the ablity of Avadi+CVRDE. They cant really, they dont have that competence anyway; and more over MoD babus+DRDO wont even like if Army tries to muscle in on that terriorty.

In fact neither would I, each organization has a specific purpose --> overloading A organization to do X,Y and Z because it has core competence in X makes no sense. Let IA focus on its job, let the MoD focus on its own.

Sanku · Post by **Sanku** » 05 Mar 2010 12:35

chackojoseph wrote:
rohitvats wrote:Won't that be the ultimate irony of it all....
If , so say goodbye to "light weight" T-90 and validation of Kanchan Armor being superior.

Validation of Kanchan armor being superior is already on many Parliamentary committee reports, which had feedback from Army as well.

Why create and knock strawmen?