Armoured Vehicles Discussion Thread

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 09 Apr 2010 01:47

in youtube search for "steel beasts" - there is recorded game footage of a group of arjuns cousins the Leo2A4 fighting a warsaw pact invasion in the fulda gap region of germany. good stuff....gives you some idea of how tanks move and fight. even in flat land they did trenches to get into hull down positions for defensive role.

Rahul M · Post by **Rahul M** » 09 Apr 2010 05:44

Putin cancels T-95 project ! :

FMBT Orphaned ?!

tejas · Post by **tejas** » 09 Apr 2010 05:49

OMG!! Hopefully there is a T-90 mkII in the works or what will the IA import?

Surya · Post by **Surya** » 09 Apr 2010 05:51

Oh this is funny

They cancelled many of the goodies some our eastern looking BRFites wanted us to buy.

waiting for philip to say this is an american conspiracy onleee

Rahul M · Post by **Rahul M** » 09 Apr 2010 05:55

tejas wrote:OMG!! Hopefully there is a T-90 mkII in the works or what will the IA import?

of course, says so in the article. only that would be named T-2000 and we will have all and sundry tell us how that is a uber futuristic design !

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 09 Apr 2010 07:27

With no armored threat in Europe and the rise of other effective anti-tank assets like ATGM , Attack Choppers the need to have a new tank has diminished.

But modernisation of T-90 is a good news , we will see mark 2 version of T-90

a_kumar · Post by **a_kumar** » 09 Apr 2010 08:19

Austin wrote:With no armored threat in Europe and the rise of other effective anti-tank assets like ATGM , Attack Choppers the need to have a new tank has diminished.

But modernisation of T-90 is a good news , we will see mark 2 version of T-90

Were you dismissive of FMBT all the while? Its an honest Question.... couldn't recollect your posts saying what you just did above?

Boudhayan · Post by **Boudhayan** » 09 Apr 2010 08:25

tejas wrote:OMG!! Hopefully there is a T-90 mkII in the works or what will the IA import?

Export the Arjun to Russia and let them color it in IA markings and let IA import it back again . That way they would get a superb "imported" machine. I believe some other BR Champion had given the same idea few pages back in this thread and I kind of liked the idea

Sorry for this OT comment though

Rahul M · Post by **Rahul M** » 09 Apr 2010 08:27

Austin wrote:With no armored threat in Europe and the rise of other effective anti-tank assets like ATGM , Attack Choppers the need to have a new tank has diminished.

But modernisation of T-90 is a good news , we will see mark 2 version of T-90

for rosbonexport, bad news for IA and its tank forces.

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 09 Apr 2010 08:56

a_kumar wrote: Were you dismissive of FMBT all the while? Its an honest Question.... couldn't recollect your posts saying what you just did above?

1 ) FMBT from DRDO is like a pie in the sky
2 ) IA has problems accepting Arjun as its MBT and has opted for T-90 Bishma as its MBT in the numbers its desires.
3 ) Even if by some divine intervention DRDO manages to develop a World Class FMBT ( much like world class Arjun which IA does not need neither does the world ) , the IA will still complain it does not meets its requirement
4 ) We can whine the IA is corrupt , DRDO has a world class product but that is not going to solve the problem
5 ) The best way to beat the system is to co-develop products which need huge investment , has risk associated with it , if DRDO/IA can develop FMBT with Russian Army , DRDO can get the stuff it wants in and IA will get what it needs and will accept it without much grudge.

Co-development has the advantage of risk mitigation and the numbers that both army needs will help in keeping the cost of the system under check as well as share the cost burden.

I am neither ant-DRDO nor anti-Army , I want to see what works practically and best in our interest , if co-development works best in our country's interest ( eg Barak-8,MTA,FGFA etc ) then we should choose that path which IMO is the way to go.

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 09 Apr 2010 09:00

Boudhayan wrote:Export the Arjun to Russia and let them color it in IA markings and let IA import it back again . That way they would get a superb "imported" machine. I believe some other BR Champion had given the same idea few pages back in this thread and I kind of liked the idea

Sorry for this OT comment though

Sure why not , if DRDO thinks Arjun is such a World Beater and T-90 is such a tin pot , let it manage to get one customer who will buy Arjun against say T-90/T-80 that would be a red letter day for DRDO.

And I subscribe to the idea that Arjun be exposed to Russian army and get it tested by them , if DRDO thinks it can beat the T-90 hands down , then we can export even it it means small numbers to them.

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 09 Apr 2010 09:02

Rahul M wrote:But modernisation of T-90 is a good news , we will see mark 2 version of T-90

for rosbonexport, bad news for IA and its tank forces.

Improved Firepower , better protection so why not ? if it can be retrofitted to previous model then its good for the tank men in that Tin Pot tank

vina · Post by **vina** » 09 Apr 2010 09:10

5 ) The best way to beat the system is to co-develop products which need huge investment , has risk associated with it , if DRDO/IA can develop FMBT with Russian Army , DRDO can get the stuff it wants in and IA will get what it needs and will accept it without much grudge.

Pls explain to me..I am a bit slow after all. You say that DRDO should develop stuff for RUSSIAN Army and Indian Army will accept it without any grudge? . And why is that ?. Is it because the Indian Army and Russian Army face exact same operating conditions and have exact same doctrine and strategy ?.

Viv S · Post by **Viv S** » 09 Apr 2010 09:11

Austin wrote: Improved Firepower , better protection so why not ? if it can be retrofitted to previous model then its good for the tank men in that Tin Pot tank

The Arjun has improved Firepower and better protection vis-a-vis the T-90.

If we do go in for the T-95, we'll have yet more foreign exchange fleeing the country and electronics on the T-95 will still fry in Rajasthan's heat. Fact is the DRDO can now deliver a product comparable to the west and possibly better than what's fielded by the Russian stables. And unlike Russian tanks, it'll be designed for Indian conditions and customized to the IA's requirements.

nachiket · Post by **nachiket** » 09 Apr 2010 09:12

Austin wrote: 3 ) Even if by some divine intervention DRDO manages to develop a World Class FMBT ( much like world class Arjun which IA does not need neither does the world ) , the IA will still complain it does not meets its requirement

So whose fault is that?

5 ) The best way to beat the system is to co-develop products which need huge investment , has risk associated with it , if DRDO/IA can develop FMBT with Russian Army , DRDO can get the stuff it wants in and IA will get what it needs and will accept it without much grudge.

Even if you can develop one all by yourself, getting only those systems that cannot be developed in house from out of the country like they did with the Arjun? Why? I totally miss the logic in that.

Co-development has the advantage of risk mitigation and the numbers that both army needs will help in keeping the cost of the system under check as well as share the cost burden.

The cost of the Arjun is very much in check as is clear from Ajai Shukla's articles about how the T-90 cost was artificially kept down so that it could be claimed that "Arjun is expensive onlee!"

I am neither ant-DRDO nor anti-Army , I want to see what works practically and best in our interest , if co-development works best in our country's interest ( eg Barak-8,MTA,FGFA etc ) then we should choose that path which IMO is the way to go.

We do not have comparable indigenous systems that can give the same performance as the Barak,MTA or FGFA and frankly we don't seem to have the technological wherewithal to develop those systems by ourselves. Not the case with tanks.

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 09 Apr 2010 09:16

vina wrote:Pls explain to me..I am a bit slow after all. You say that DRDO should develop stuff for RUSSIAN Army and Indian Army will accept it without any grudge? . And why is that ?. Is it because the Indian Army and Russian Army face exact same operating conditions and have exact same doctrine and strategy ?.

So why doesn't the doctrine , strategy logic work against PAK-FA , Barak-8 and all the imported stuff we have including T-90 tanks ?

What I am saying is to co-develop the FMBT project with Russian partners to share the cost , mitigate risk and it also seems to have greater acceptance in the armed forces ( not just the IA ) , if that model works best so be it.

Now if DRDO indeed has some great revolutionary ideas that can be translated into engineering models then the IA would definitely accept it as part of FMBT and so would any army in the world for that matter.

vina · Post by **vina** » 09 Apr 2010 09:18

Yawnn. Now the DGMF / Army will go to Nizhny Tagil or whatever and get the blue prints/plans for the T-95 / Object XXX for nearly throw away prices and get some snake oil in the bargain and go tell DRDO to join up with them and tell them to take the prototype vehicles and rebadge it as FMBT or whatever .

But at one level it is good news. This 152mm gun and 3 man remote control turrent vaporware is gone for good. If you need a larger caliber gun, it makes lot more sense to provision for it like the new Korean MBT has done for (140mm gun if necessary)

But frankly the problem is with the FMBT definition and the requirements definition for it. That is the Army's job, not the DRDO. That is something the Army will never be able to do. For after all, the Indian Army is like Sigmund Freud's woman. It doesn't know what it wants.

After all these years of study, I still haven't been able to find out , what is it that a woman wants - Sigmund Freud

vina · Post by **vina** » 09 Apr 2010 09:24

Austin wrote:So why doesn't the doctrine , strategy logic work against PAK-FA , Barak-8 and all the imported stuff we have including T-90 tanks ?

Barak-8 and Pak-Fa are India specific products /codeveloped and modified specifically for India. The T-90 is not. It is a kaam chalao /make do stuff, which spinners/boosters pass off as the greatest thing since sliced bread for India.

What I am saying is to co-develop the FMBT project with Russian partners to share the cost , mitigate risk and it also seems to have greater acceptance in the armed forces ( not just the IA ) , if that model works best so be it.

Problem is the Russians don't want an FMBT anymore. So what are you gonna do now ?. The bottom is knocked off the IA's future armor modernization and roadmap. Now you are left with Tin Can 90s and applying more make up on the pig (aka "modernization" MKII) to make it look pretty !. Now go ahead, run to the Koreans, who probably are the only ones investing in new tanks and get via the Koreans, the same set of technologies second hand from the Koreans that the Arjun program got from the same western vendors (Koreans took a lot of LeClerc tech) .

The other option is to declare as "Since the Rodina has declared that we dont need next gen tanks and wont invest anymore in that, the Indian Army too (since we are twins).. dont need next gen tanks and will do exactly as the Russians do!"

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 09 Apr 2010 09:26

nachiket wrote:So whose fault is that?

Mostly DRDO partly Army , the IA is the end customer , if DRDO cannot convince about the "world class" capability of Arjun to the IA then its DRDO loss not IA

The IA found it fit and matching to procure ~ 1600 T-90 as it MBT with GOI approval , since it thinks T-90 is world class and meet its requirement.

Even if you can develop one all by yourself, getting only those systems that cannot be developed in house from out of the country like they did with the Arjun? Why? I totally miss the logic in that.

So what is the small import content of Arjun ?

The cost of the Arjun is very much in check as is clear from Ajai Shukla's articles about how the T-90 cost was artificially kept down so that it could be claimed that "Arjun is expensive onlee!"

Fine the IA wants an expensive T-90's tank , I have no problems with it as long as the IA finds its acceptable to its need , I will let the Defence Forces decide what it needs.

We do not have comparable indigenous systems that can give the same performance as the Barak,MTA or FGFA and frankly we don't seem to have the technological wherewithal to develop those systems by ourselves. Not the case with tanks.

If DRDO thinks its Tank is world beater , let them just get one customer who will buy this tank , I will accept its a World Beater.

DRDO cannot complain that IA did not buy , it did and chances are IA will buy more in Mk2.

Now please let DRDO find one export customer to its claimed world beater tank and the specs it put up viz a viz other will help them.

Rahul M · Post by **Rahul M** » 09 Apr 2010 09:26

Austin wrote:
Rahul M wrote:But modernisation of T-90 is a good news , we will see mark 2 version of T-90

for rosbonexport, bad news for IA and its tank forces.
Improved Firepower , better protection so why not ? if it can be retrofitted to previous model then its good for the tank men in that Tin Pot tank

per a saying in bangla, you can't beat a donkey to make it a horse.

however much lipstick you add, a pig remains a pig.

all those add-ons will not change the basic design problems with the Tincans. the gap between threat and protection will also remain the same. after all we don't expect that AT technology will stand still will it ?

Austin wrote:
a_kumar wrote: Were you dismissive of FMBT all the while? Its an honest Question.... couldn't recollect your posts saying what you just did above?
1 ) FMBT from DRDO is like a pie in the sky.......

this has to be a joke ! starting from a situation of no experience CVRDE developed a tank that is worlds ahead of the T-90. by what realistic expectation do we say that it will fail to deliver on FMBT (with the lessons and experience of arjun behind it) and the russians who have developed a decidedly mediocre product in the T-72/90 will suddenly succeed ?

if it is extrapolation we are doing, CVRDE's capability graph is skyrocketing while russian tank development graph is a sedate straight line that is actually slowly going down.

niran · Post by **niran** » 09 Apr 2010 09:29

Austin wrote:
Sure why not , if DRDO thinks Arjun is such a World Beater and T-90 is such a tin pot , let it manage to get one customer who will buy Arjun against say T-90/T-80 that would be a red letter day for DRDO.

FWIW, i have heard from reliable source, that there was a delegation from a certain
SE Asian country, trying to get few dents on Arjun, before putting up a buying proposal.
they were told to go suck their thumbs(diplomatically of course). reason being, India
have no policy to sell MBT

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 09 Apr 2010 09:32

^^^ Well change the policy , Else we end up having a "World Class and World Renowned in India" product

niran · Post by **niran** » 09 Apr 2010 09:37

Austin wrote:^^^ Well change the policy , Else we end up having a "World Class and World Renowned in India" product

it is kinda Constitutional policy. one will have to amend the Constitution.
and setup marketing arm, a whole new infrastructure, and while the setup
is readied, Indian ishtyle, costumers will have got other MBTs.

VinayG · Post by **VinayG** » 09 Apr 2010 10:04

why dont we get rid of stored / reserve tanks like un upgraded t-72/t 55 fill this gap with t-90 then we go for german leo tank along with TOT Which inturn will be helpful in arjun Mark II tank development . its just my opinion

bodhi · Post by **bodhi** » 09 Apr 2010 10:24

VinayG wrote:why dont we get rid of stored / reserve tanks like un upgraded t-72/t 55 fill this gap with t-90 then we go for german leo tank along with TOT Which inturn will be helpful in arjun Mark II tank development . its just my opinion

why would you want to create a gap for stored tanks and then fill them with the Tincan which is actually supposed to be our mainstay?

And why Leo...if the IA says Arjun does not fit into the doctrine....how will the Leo make a difference? Even with my limited knowledge from lurking in these threads, I don't think Leo and Arjun are much different!

VinayG · Post by **VinayG** » 09 Apr 2010 10:35

bodhi wrote:
VinayG wrote:why dont we get rid of stored / reserve tanks like un upgraded t-72/t 55 fill this gap with t-90 then we go for german leo tank along with TOT Which inturn will be helpful in arjun Mark II tank development . its just my opinion
why would you want to create a gap for stored tanks and then fill them with the Tincan which is actually supposed to be our mainstay?

And why Leo...if the IA says Arjun does not fit into the doctrine....how will the Leo make a difference? Even with my limited knowledge from lurking in these threads, I don't think Leo and Arjun are much different!

the reason is better to have t 90 than night blind mothballed t-72 and t-55 = junk. secondly personally no unkil sam products, next chellanger 2 & leo 2 are the most most advanced tank available. we got some help from the germans for our arjun atleast the engine isz german . britans humm nope idont trust them either so we are left with leo tank, army had developed a phobia to arjun mark 1 and t 95 project is cancelled which isz an another tin can . so my opinion isz go for limited no of leo 2 learn the tech mainly engine than go for mass production of arjun mark 2.

their will be no gap exxample we produce 50 t-90s kick out 50 t72s even

VinayG · Post by **VinayG** » 09 Apr 2010 10:37

if you think there is any another solution suggestions are welcomed

leo

sunny_s · Post by **sunny_s** » 09 Apr 2010 10:42

Shameek wrote:http://www.ptinews.com/news/601257_Lieu ... y-exercise

An army lieutenant was killed and two personnel were injured when their tank fell into a well during a military exercise in Rajasthan's Churu district, police said today.
RIP. Hope the other two men are doing ok.

shameek ji LT NISHANT KAROL was my friend and to be really honest i got this bad news this morning only when i read the BR NEWS SECTION

this video of armoured boys i really dint knew it will become a tribute to him

[img

][/img]
REST IN PEACE BROTHER REST IN PEACE

Rahul M · Post by **Rahul M** » 09 Apr 2010 10:48

really very sorry to hear this.

my condolences.

VinayG · Post by **VinayG** » 09 Apr 2010 10:52

RIP UN FORTUNATE INCIDENT sorry to hear that u lost ur friend

Rahul M · Post by **Rahul M** » 09 Apr 2010 11:16

Austin wrote:^^^ Well change the policy , Else we end up having a "World Class and World Renowned in India" product

like the T-72/90 which is world renowned in India and "proven" in the gulf war, chechnya and ossetia.

DRDO cannot complain that IA did not buy , it did and chances are IA will buy more in Mk2.

oh, it bought a token 2 regiments (less than 4 % of its total requirement) ten years after the tank was ready, that too after being forced by the govt. absolutely nothing to complain at all ! better treatment can't be imagined.

If DRDO thinks its Tank is world beater , let them just get one customer who will buy this tank , I will accept its a World Beater.

first you don't buy it for ridiculous reasons then you say we are not buying it because foreign armies are not buying it ?

why on earth will they buy it if the home army doesn't buy it ?

which country has bought the tu-160, f-22, rafale or the ka-50 ? you agree all those are inferior products ?

austin, this is really clutching at straws to justify a russian decision. just yesterday you are singing paeans to the T-95, now you are saying "oh, they don't need it" ? at least make up your mind ?!

I will let the Defence Forces decide what it needs.

why don't I see the same logic when discussing
> AAR induction
> buying eurocanards etc ?

just FYI, it frequently happens that armed forces have to be brought kicking and spitting to another age, the tank itself was developed against strong opposition from UK's armed forces.
our mig-21's were bought against the wishes of an air force that wanted western fighters.
even the T-72 faced opposition from people in the army who wanted western tanks.

Kanson · Post by **Kanson** » 09 Apr 2010 11:27

Oooppps...my condolences.

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 09 Apr 2010 12:53

Rahul M wrote: like the T-72/90 which is world renowned in India and "proven" in the gulf war, chechnya and ossetia

The T-90 did a good job in Chechnya isnt it .

But the point is neither are we iraq nor the pakis US , if IA is convinced that T-90 is a good tank to face the Pakis then there is nothing to debate on.

If the IA is convinced that Arjun performed well in recent trials , GOI will order more . If Arjun did not do well then it wont.

it bought a token 2 regiments (less than 4 % of its total requirement) ten years after the tank was ready, that too after being forced by the govt. absolutely nothing to complain at all ! better treatment can't be imagined.

Well true , but when IA bought T-90 how many T-90's were in Russian Army Service ? even today they dont have more than 500 T-90's but more are on order.

first you don't buy it for ridiculous reasons then you say we are not buying it because foreign armies are not buying it ?
why on earth will they buy it if the home army doesn't buy it ?

Well the IA needs to be convinced that Arjun is a good tank , why on earth will any army buy a tank if the seller cannot convince that it is good.

which country has bought the tu-160, f-22, rafale or the ka-50 ? you agree all those are inferior products ?

Did the Arjun MK1 even competed in any global requirement to have an impartial view that it is a good tank ?

Its DRDO which is claiming that its a great tank , well so does Rosboronexport does with T-90's

Let Arjun compete in some trials fair and square , atleast the T-90's do and now even Saudi's are going to buy.

austin, this is really clutching at straws to justify a russian decision. just yesterday you are singing paeans to the T-95, now you are saying "oh, they don't need it" ? at least make up your mind ?!

Rahul I do not make decision the IA/GOI does , if IA/GOI thinks DRDO FMBT is worth the salt so be it , if DRDO/IA/GOI thinks and wants to co-develop with Israel ,Russia, South Korea , US or any one so be it.

My opinion is I would prefer the co-development route , as it has gained wider acceptance in Defense Service , look at Brahmos example or PAK-FA.

just FYI, it frequently happens that armed forces have to be brought kicking and spitting to another age, the tank itself was developed against strong opposition from UK's armed forces.
our mig-21's were bought against the wishes of an air force that wanted western fighters.
even the T-72 faced opposition from people in the army who wanted western tanks.

[/quote]

The IA has opted for T-90's as its MBT , the GOI has accepted that position so where is the problem ?

The DRDO thinks its unfair , so now we have a trial , the result of the trial is or will be with GOI , if GOI thinks the Arjun did well it will get more orders , if the Arjun did not then it wont.

Where is the problem ?

rohitvats · Post by **rohitvats** » 09 Apr 2010 13:29

The T-90 did a good job in Chechnya isnt it

What is the definition of good job? Russian Armed Forces meeting their objective or Russian Armor doing its job is not exactly same as T-90 being the uber-tank?

But the point is neither are we iraq nor the pakis US , if IA is convinced that T-90 is a good tank to face the Pakis then there is nothing to debate on. If the IA is convinced that Arjun performed well in recent trials , GOI will order more . If Arjun did not do well then it wont.

It does not matter if the T-90 is operated by Martians - at the end of the day, it's shortcomings inherent in its design will always be there. As for IA getting convinced and GOI ordering more - well, it is the IA that has to order more and not GOI. For a change, I hope GOI shoves a ~500 Arjuns down the IA throat - like it did the last time.

Well true , but when IA bought T-90 how many T-90's were in Russian Army Service ? even today they dont have more than 500 T-90's but more are on order.

And the point is? Russia not having T-90 in sustantial numbers is due to their financial situation. The same situation which prevented them for going for T-95 in first place and then, finally cancelling the uber FMBT project.

Well the IA needs to be convinced that Arjun is a good tank , why on earth will any army buy a tank if the seller cannot convince that it is good

And what if the buyer has made his mind not to get convinced?Even the IA today does not have reasons to throw mud at the tank...

Did the Arjun MK1 even competed in any global requirement to have an impartial view that it is a good tank ? Its DRDO which is claiming that its a great tank , well so does Rosboronexport does with T-90's. Let Arjun compete in some trials fair and square , atleast the T-90's do and now even Saudi's are going to buy.

Why should Arjun compete in global RFP to prove its credentials? Did Abrams/Leopards/Challangers/Merkava compete and win in a RFP to prove their worth and did then their armies buy them? Their worth was proven when their nation's army brought these...Is that hard to understand? T-90's compete because their nation's MIC survives on exports...our's does not.

And Arjun has been developed as per IA GSQR, to operate in Indian environment and fight India's war...that is why it's electronics work in 60 degree+ while T-90 has its TI conked off by the Thar heat...these are some very simple facts which are obvious to everyone except to those with blinkered vision like you...

Rahul I do not make decision the IA/GOI does , if IA/GOI thinks DRDO FMBT is worth the salt so be it , if DRDO/IA/GOI thinks and wants to co-develop with Israel ,Russia, South Korea , US or any one so be it.

My opinion is I would prefer the co-development route , as it has gained wider acceptance in Defense Service , look at Brahmos example or PAK-FA.

And how are these relevant to the Arjun debate? So, DRDO needs to go for JV to cater to whims and fancies of IA top brass? Last this technically challenged abdul checked, DRDO was going JV in those areas where it has no experience/time and money spent not worth the effort...May be, DRDO will go for foreign engine for FMBT or collaborate with Israelies or US even for electro-optronics...but why go to Russia for JV? What earth shattering thing have they done in armored vehicles segment in last 30 years?

The IA has opted for T-90's as its MBT , the GOI has accepted that position so where is the problem ? The DRDO thinks its unfair , so now we have a trial , the result of the trial is or will be with GOI , if GOI thinks the Arjun did well it will get more orders , if the Arjun did not then it wont. Where is the problem ?

The problem is the blinkered vision of the decision makers in the IA and their biased attitude...the results are with IA and it is IA which will order more or otherwise...results not withstanding. If they can approve and reccommend T-90 for induction after trials in Russia (it is the PNC that got them to trial in Indian Summer), get the T-90 without bells and whistles to show that it is cheaper...well, disapproving Arjun is 'small fly in the ointment'

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 09 Apr 2010 15:40

Well in the end we can have a discussion on the merits of the decision and what was/is good or not , its really of academic interest.

In the end what the IA says or does and most importantly what GOI does is what really matters , if GOI wants more Arjun the IA will take it , if GOI want to close Arjun for good one will have to accept it and move on.

Rahul M · Post by **Rahul M** » 10 Apr 2010 20:13

Austin wrote:
Rahul M wrote: like the T-72/90 which is world renowned in India and "proven" in the gulf war, chechnya and ossetia
The T-90 did a good job in Chechnya isnt it .
{are you sure of that ? most reports I've seen claim that the T-90 was never used in chechnya, understandable since at that point Rus army had a couple of hundred T-90's at most and all in the far east if memory serves right. this MDB article is the only one that claims T-90 was used http://mdb.cast.ru/mdb/3-2002/ac/raowdsmcc/ and it's clear that the author is not certain of the veracity of the story.
secondly, even assuming it is true, it only mentions that the T-90 survived some RPG rounds. the chechens had only obsolete RPG-7 and RPG-18, so that's not surprising at all, it's certainly not a representative threat of what an MBT faces on the modern battlefield and is by no means reason enough to call it a "good job". we might as well celebrate that the T-90 is immune to handguns !
a couple of reports do claim that the T-90's performed horribly with upwards of a dozen destroyed(high proportion of deployed units) but I think they have confused with the similar looking T-72BM (equipped with the kontakt-V, IOW very similar protection level to the T-90 so we can guess how the T-90 would have fared if deployed in larger numbers.)}

But the point is neither are we iraq nor the pakis US , if IA is convinced that T-90 is a good tank to face the Pakis then there is nothing to debate on.
{of course there is something to debate on, armed forces or any organisation for that matter is by no means infalliable and this issue is certainly worth a debate because there are significant senior sections within the IA itself who vehemently oppose the T-90 acquisition in pvt, that they do not come out in the open with that view is merely out of loyalty to the service.
moreover, army itself has never bothered to give a reason for this counter-common sense decision and when some individual officers have given reasons, these have been so nutty and false that beggars belief.}
If the IA is convinced that Arjun performed well in recent trials , GOI will order more . If Arjun did not do well then it wont.
{that is a too simplistic statement, due to whatever reasons (read apathy) GOI might not push a reluctant army to accept the arjun, or there may even be an as-yet undiscovered corruption angle.
won't be surprising given how the MOD/army broke its own rules when selecting the T-90}
it bought a token 2 regiments (less than 4 % of its total requirement) ten years after the tank was ready, that too after being forced by the govt. absolutely nothing to complain at all ! better treatment can't be imagined.
Well true , but when IA bought T-90 how many T-90's were in Russian Army Service ? even today they dont have more than 500 T-90's but more are on order.
{I'm sorry but is there a relation between what I said and this point of yours ? IA bought an insignificant no of arjuns, 10 years after it was ready and only because the GOI forced it down its throat. what's that got to do with how many T-90's russia operated ?
sorry, but I don't see the point. }
first you don't buy it for ridiculous reasons then you say we are not buying it because foreign armies are not buying it ?
why on earth will they buy it if the home army doesn't buy it ?

Well the IA needs to be convinced that Arjun is a good tank , why on earth will any army buy a tank if the seller cannot convince that it is good.
{no one can ever convince anyone who has decided before hand that he is not going to be convinced, is that so hard to understand ?
the evidences of double standards are well documented, what more proof do you need that IA didn't approach the situation with an open mind ? (which is the first requirement for one to be convinced by reason)}
which country has bought the tu-160, f-22, rafale or the ka-50 ? you agree all those are inferior products ?
Did the Arjun MK1 even competed in any global requirement to have an impartial view that it is a good tank ?
{did the Tu-160 ? or the F-22 ? didn't the rafale and the ka-50 fail in every international competition they participated in ?

why on earth should the home army decide on buying a product depending on whether it clears competitions in a foreign land ? especially when the product has been made to your exacting specifications ?
will the RuAF wait and see if the royal malaysian air force selects the PAKFA before deciding to buy it ?
did the US army wait for kuwaiti army to select the abrams before buying it ?}
Its DRDO which is claiming that its a great tank , well so does Rosboronexport does with T-90's
{yes but the numbers don't speak for them, subjective comments like "this iz a modern flying tank onlee" etc does not matter.
if the T-90 is better the numbers and the trial results should speak for it right ? otherwise I too can claim that I'm a better batsman than sachin ? }
Let Arjun compete in some trials fair and square , atleast the T-90's do and now even Saudi's are going to buy.
{oh give me a break ! saudis buy whatever the royalty feels like it, let's not pretend that it is driven by a competent weapons comparison trials. they will buy 50 year old shermans tomorrow if it is packaged well. of course, the reason might simply be evaluation purposes for the pak army but that's another story.}

austin, this is really clutching at straws to justify a russian decision. just yesterday you are singing paeans to the T-95, now you are saying "oh, they don't need it" ? at least make up your mind ?!
Rahul I do not make decision the IA/GOI does , if IA/GOI thinks DRDO FMBT is worth the salt so be it , if DRDO/IA/GOI thinks and wants to co-develop with Israel ,Russia, South Korea , US or any one so be it.

My opinion is I would prefer the co-development route , as it has gained wider acceptance in Defense Service , look at Brahmos example or PAK-FA. {that is in sectors where we lack the necessary skills, not one like the MBT where we already have the skills}

just FYI, it frequently happens that armed forces have to be brought kicking and spitting to another age, the tank itself was developed against strong opposition from UK's armed forces.
our mig-21's were bought against the wishes of an air force that wanted western fighters.
even the T-72 faced opposition from people in the army who wanted western tanks.

The IA has opted for T-90's as its MBT , the GOI has accepted that position so where is the problem ? {since when do we in a democracy go by the tenet "govt knows best" ?
it's our job to questions, the people at the helm are after all not infalliable. }

The DRDO thinks its unfair , so now we have a trial , the result of the trial is or will be with GOI , if GOI thinks the Arjun did well it will get more orders , if the Arjun did not then it wont.
{if only it were so. the arjun has been doing well for well over ten years now, proportionate orders haven't materialised. even the measly 124 tank order was blocked for more than 6 years before the govt forced the issue.}
Where is the problem ?
{explained above ? }

dnivas · Post by **dnivas** » 11 Apr 2010 12:05

Great points Rahul.

Surya · Post by **Surya** » 11 Apr 2010 13:44

Did the Arjun MK1 even competed in any global requirement to have an impartial view that it is a good tank ? Its DRDO which is claiming that its a great tank , well so does Rosboronexport does with T-90's. Let Arjun compete in some trials fair and square , atleast the T-90's do and now even Saudi's are going to buy.

after this sort of argument why bother??

Nayak · Post by **Nayak** » 11 Apr 2010 13:49

When did the saudi barbarians experience of buying arms become an example ?

God forbid the army will wakeup only when bodybags start coming from the next war when the turrets of the $hit-tin-can 90s blow up in the air.

Yagnasri · Post by **Yagnasri** » 11 Apr 2010 14:04

So the new argument is going to be Saudi's like it so it must be good. ha ha ha