Armoured Vehicles Discussion Thread

[Rahul M]

Much better to start work on an FMBT project (and not prejudge it as "Western" or "Russian") and start getting THAT to replace T90s/T72s completely in the same timeframe...

For the nth time it does not work like it. srai has explained it. Shukla has mentioned - the Israelis are saying it.

You are not going to produce 50 or 100 shut down production and voila years from now come up with a FMBT of your own???

Thats the biggest wet dream.

concerned relative to high-school kid :
what are you doing studying for board exams ? it's a complete waste of time. drop it already ! drop any plans of going to college and graduate as well ! skip all that and get a pee yech dee directly !

[Virupaksha]

sirjee,

at least the relative knows what Pee ech dee in technology strategy with an upper hand is. Can any relative tell what FMBT is?

[somnath]

of the Mk2, which is a different model.

Right, so? The basic point is that even Ajai Shukla talks of a production rate of 30 for now, to be expanded incrementally - and it certainly does not mean a second assembly line..Only the most Tughlakian plant manager will open a second line when the first produces 30!

For the nth time it does not work like it. srai has explained it. Shukla has mentioned - the Israelis are saying it.

You are not going to produce 50 or 100 shut down production and voila years from now come up with a FMBT of your own???

Thats the biggest wet dream.

Sir, in an ideal world I would agree..We would have a seamless programme of replacing T-series tanks with Arjuns and also MkII and MkIII versions of it..But the world isnt ideal..We already have an existing programme of inducting 1500+ T90s, for better or worse..Trying to parallely induct another 1000 or 1500 Arjuns make no sense at all..On the other hand, design and product development experience gained in Arjun can be effectively deployed in an FMBT project...

The FMBT will be the starting point of our tank manufacturing effort, consider Arjun as an investment in our education process!! (Its a bit flippant I realise, but that unfortunately is the best way to look at it now!)..

[somnath]

Paraphrasing the pulicly aired objections to Arjun:

1. Too big
2. Too heavy
3. Quality control

Barrign the thrid point, no amount of persisting with the Arjun project solves the first two issues..In case the IA really thinks that big and heavy tanks dont fit in with its operational doctrines, thats really the end of the story...

Hence it is important to start working on the FMBT - in case IA is fibbing, that too will get caught out in the process!

[somnath]

sirjee,

at least the relative knows what Pee ech dee in technology strategy with an upper hand is. Can any relative tell what FMBT is?

Whats that?

[nachiket]

sirjee,

at least the relative knows what Pee ech dee in technology strategy with an upper hand is. Can any relative tell what FMBT is?

Whats that?

PHD in Technology Strategy

[Surya]

somanth no need for sir -
The FMBT per your hope would essentially be what the Russians come up with - because we would go through one more round of logisitcal ease yada yada


In general (not directed at Somnath)


I love this dream about FMBT???

What track record does the ARmy have for futuristic ideas??? Vina put it in better words some time back


light specialist vehicle???

Trucks??

We got chewed out by IEDs for some time and did you see a design need come out of it??

Nah years later we went and bought the Casspir which the South Africans came up with.

ICVs?? APCs??

ATGMs?? rockets??


one ground breaking innovation???

yeah we had huffy and Tuffy
and suddenly we are going to come up with a FMBT??

[nachiket]

Paraphrasing the pulicly aired objections to Arjun:

1. Too big
2. Too heavy
3. Quality control

Barrign the thrid point, no amount of persisting with the Arjun project solves the first two issues..In case the IA really thinks that big and heavy tanks dont fit in with its operational doctrines, thats really the end of the story...

Hence it is important to start working on the FMBT - in case IA is fibbing, that too will get caught out in the process!

So you are saying the army was blissfully unaware of the bolded part when they drafted the GSQRs?

[Surya]

Barrign the thrid point, no amount of persisting with the Arjun project solves the first two issues..In case the IA really thinks that big and heavy tanks dont fit in with its operational doctrines, thats really the end of the story...

Then I want those wonderful people in the IA to explain why the GSQR was what it was??

Also please solemnly promise that even if the pukis get M1s or some Chinese heavy tank - we will will continue to ply our sub 45 ton tanks. Especially those geniuses who thinks the Leopard 2 is garbage

[nachiket]

...Especially those geniuses who thinks the Leopard 2 is garbage

Who thinks that?

[somnath]

somanth no need for sir -
The FMBT per your hope would essentially be what the Russians come up with - because we would go through one more round of logisitcal ease yada yada

Thats precisely the reason why Dr Saraswat should call the DGMF and COAS and tell them:

"you dont like the Arjun because its too big, too heavy and Avadi sucks in QC? Fine..Lets forget Arjun...Now is as good a time as any to start work on the FMBT...We would not have AVadi, but recruit a production partner from the pvt sector...This tank will be the Army's MBT 10 years from now, starting to replace all T-series tanks"

The IA wont be able to refuse the offer at all..

Re your (and Nachiket's) point on Arjun's GSQRs - as I said before, they are valid..But are good currently only toscore brownie points against the Army..Doesnt resolve the issue..

[Surya]

somnath

problem is that Saraswat is in a diff position than the others who have slogged on it.

Some of them are being actively approached by the private sector.
They have no incentive to continue this nonsense.

All those skills will be gone.


Nachiket

Page 37 of this thread - like Leopard , boxy yada yada

[putnanja]

Thats precisely the reason why Dr Saraswat should call the DGMF and COAS and tell them:

"you dont like the Arjun because its too big, too heavy and Avadi sucks in QC? Fine..Lets forget Arjun...Now is as good a time as any to start work on the FMBT...We would not have AVadi, but recruit a production partner from the pvt sector...This tank will be the Army's MBT 10 years from now, starting to replace all T-series tanks"

The IA wont be able to refuse the offer at all..

somnath, you are still thinking that the issue is the production process? It is not a production issue. The army has lived with T-72 and T-90 from avadi and will live with it for any tank purchased and assembled/built at avadi.

The issue is of design and application. The army has to come up with a proper GSQR for the FMBT. And irrespective of whether it is Avadi or a private sector company or a PSU, the design will be done by DRDO.

Issues like Arjun being too big, too heavy, too big of a sillhoute, having 4 people instead of 3 etc are not production issues but fundamental design issues which stem from the GSQR.

Instead of looking at glossy brochures, the army needs to look at what sort of MBT it wants, what the current drawbacks are of the T-series and then put that requirement into its GSQR. And it will still be designed by DRDO not avadi because the expertise is with DRDO.

[nachiket]

Issues like Arjun being too big, too heavy, too big of a sillhoute, having 4 people instead of 3 etc are not production issues but fundamental design issues which stem from the GSQR.

Instead of looking at glossy brochures, the army needs to look at what sort of MBT it wants, what the current drawbacks are of the T-series and then put that requirement into its GSQR. And it will still be designed by DRDO not avadi because the expertise is with DRDO.

Didn't they already do that when the GSQR's for the Arjun were decided? The drawbacks of the T-series have already been addressed with the Arjun. But the Army still wants the T-90. So what exactly is the FMBT all about? You cannot provide more crew protection and survivability and crew comfort both of which the T-series tanks sorely lack without increasing the weight and size of the tank. I guess the drawbacks of two-piece ammunition used in the T-series 125mm guns has also been addressed in the Arjun. Correct me if I'm wrong on the last one.

[Virupaksha]

FMBT is all hogwash, BS and hot air.

Let the army bring out the GSQR for FMBT and then let us talk about it. Until then it is arjun vs T72BU i.e. T90.

Saraswat can say all he wants, but as long as FMBTs GSQR is not issued by the army, the head of R&D cannot talk about it. Who the hell will pay for the research if in the GSQR issued they ask for 120 mm gun instead of 130 mm gun and so on.

[Surya]

Instead of looking at glossy brochures, the army needs to look at what sort of MBT it wants, what the current drawbacks are of the T-series and then put that requirement into its GSQR.

BTW a few pages back we have already got the design for FMBT

[somnath]

somnath, you are still thinking that the issue is the production process? It is not a production issue. The army has lived with T-72 and T-90 from avadi and will live with it for any tank purchased and assembled/built at avadi.

It is, and it is a big issue, though not the only one...Hence shutting out Avadi is a good signal of serious intent on the part of DRDO..As for the rest, I agree with you - thats why the design work on the FMBT should start now...

[Virupaksha]

Instead of looking at glossy brochures, the army needs to look at what sort of MBT it wants, what the current drawbacks are of the T-series and then put that requirement into its GSQR.

BTW a few pages back we have already got the design for FMBT

You mean the GSQR which russia is writing for T-95, err Indian army for FMBT??

[somnath]

Didn't they already do that when the GSQR's for the Arjun were decided? The drawbacks of the T-series have already been addressed with the Arjun. But the Army still wants the T-90. So what exactly is the FMBT all about? You cannot provide more crew protection and survivability and crew comfort both of which the T-series tanks sorely lack without increasing the weight and size of the tank. I guess the drawbacks of two-piece ammunition used in the T-series 125mm guns has also been addressed in the Arjun. Correct me if I'm wrong on the last one.

How do you know? Given that the IA has selected the T90, despite it having the same "design deficiencies" that the T72 has says something for what it thinks, doesnt it?

You are again pre-judging the GSQRs by assuming that crew protection, crew comfort et al are the primary design considerations of the Army - seems like not! They seem to place more emphasis on lower silhouette, commonality of logistics, and lighter weight...I see no reason why the FMBT cannot be a 50 ton tank with a "small" size - it may not be a Merkava Indian version, but maybe good for what IA wants to do?

FMBT is all hogwash, BS and hot air.

Let the army bring out the GSQR for FMBT and then let us talk about it. Until then it is arjun vs T72BU i.e. T90.

Saraswat can say all he wants, but as long as FMBTs GSQR is not issued by the army, the head of R&D cannot talk about it. Who the hell will pay for the research if in the GSQR issued they ask for 120 mm gun instead of 130 mm gun and so on.

DRDO has been beating the drums on getting more orders for Arjun quite effectively..Why doesnt it nuance the approach and ask for work to be started on the FMBT? Army can hardly refuse..

[somnath]

And there is a constant allusion to the Army looking at glossy brochures..There is an element of truth to this - Dr Santhanam once mentioned about the BBC complex of the services!!!But at least in the tank case, it doesnt seem to be true...In case the Army was really after the glossiest product - well, why not Chally, or Leopard, or Merkava, for that matter even M1? Why a humble T90? Further, even if we assume (as some do) that the first 300 was a stop gap, why expand the order to 1500 and designate it as the MBT for today?

[Virupaksha]

DRDO has been beating the drums on getting more orders for Arjun quite effectively..Why doesnt it nuance the approach and ask for work to be started on the FMBT? Army can hardly refuse..

so you push the army's job of knowing and saying what it wants to the DRDO?? When did it become DRDOs job to push for new GSQRs?

and in the meantime allow army to just dump arjun to the t-72bu? without even breakeven on the arjun??

Any normal private organization would just dump the whole arjun unit instead of going around a newer mirage of FMBT hogwash. Who knows when the exact time of production comes, the newer mirage would be ultra future FMBT and the next ultra ultra future FMBT and so on.

[putnanja]

There is also the eastern tank vs western tank philosophy which has the army divided on opinions. The army also wanted to do away with all crew comforts( anyone remember the "we don't need A/Cs for tanks" comment from a senior commander? ). On Ajai Shukla's blog, there was also the DGMF telling the regiment testing Arjun that they had not conducted trials properly as they said Arjun met all requirements.

As with all equipment in armed forces, there will be a bias towards/against particular equipments, and it may decide on the people making decisions at that time.

[Rahul M]

And there is a constant allusion to the Army looking at glossy brochures..There is an element of truth to this - Dr Santhanam once mentioned about the BBC complex of the services!!!But at least in the tank case, it doesnt seem to be true...In case the Army was really after the glossiest product - well, why not Chally, or Leopard, or Merkava, for that matter even M1? Why a humble T90? Further, even if we assume (as some do) that the first 300 was a stop gap, why expand the order to 1500 and designate it as the MBT for today?

this ?

[/speculation alert] is that most of the current elite of armoured forces have been brought up on the T-series philosophy. the vijayanta fleet has long ceased to be the cutting edge and consequently there are almost no one left at the top with exposure to the quite different western tank philosophy. most of these people have a very difficult time admitting that the T-72 type idea is an evolutionary dead-end, even the russian blackeagle/FMBT idea is much closer to the western tank design than russian one. a type of cognitive dissonance if you will. it is difficult to accept that the tank you have sworn by is in fact inferior in design. acquiring a tank designed to western design would just confirm that assertion.
in fact, Gen RoyC indicated something very like this in an interview. [/end speculation]

/edited from my original post a little.

[nachiket]

You are again pre-judging the GSQRs by assuming that crew protection, crew comfort et al are the primary design considerations of the Army - seems like not! They seem to place more emphasis on lower silhouette, commonality of logistics, and lighter weight...I see no reason why the FMBT cannot be a 50 ton tank with a "small" size - it may not be a Merkava Indian version, but maybe good for what IA wants to do?

Then what are the drawbacks of the T-series? "lower silhouette, commonality of logistics, and lighter weight" are all features which the T-90 already has. So what would the army be looking for in the FMBT? (that the arjun doesn't provide)

How do you know? Given that the IA has selected the T90, despite it having the same "design deficiencies" that the T72 has says something for what it thinks, doesnt it?

It makes absolutely no sense. That's what this debate is all about.

[niran]

Company "A" needed a new design window grill to prevent
thieves entering, so it got company "B" to design and manufacture
the window grill.

after R&D and testing and what not, company "B" have the finished
product, but company "A" rejects the product citing the reasons
that the grill does not fit the window, but company "B" asks
"it was you(company "A") who gave us the requirement and
measurements, and how can the grill be incompatible?

IA issued the GSQRs (is it GQRS) according to its need, Arjun is
the result of those, no? then how can IA rejects Arjun on the
ground of too heavy, too airy, too large,..........., like it or not
IA ordered it, so they have use it, in a normal world(not ideal world)
these excuses by IA would have resulted in a Court case all IA alla affsaraan
getting their........ i will leave it at that.

[Picklu]

Thats precisely the reason why Dr Saraswat should call the DGMF and COAS and tell them:

"you dont like the Arjun because its too big, too heavy and Avadi sucks in QC? Fine..Lets forget Arjun...Now is as good a time as any to start work on the FMBT...We would not have AVadi, but recruit a production partner from the pvt sector...This tank will be the Army's MBT 10 years from now, starting to replace all T-series tanks"

The IA wont be able to refuse the offer at all..

Why should it refuse? It will agree on a heart beat and continue ordering another 1000 T-90 from mother Russia for the time being.

Then, ten years down the line when current DGMF and COAS are not in the picture, the army will summarily reject the DRDO FMBT for being too small for crew comfort, too thin skinned and a good tank but already outdated and really a base of F-FMBT and orders 1600 Russian T-100 as interim measure for the year 2020. Why, from the Arjun saga, it is quite clear that no one can held the army responsible on that; in fact none can talk to Army about accountability on anything other than winning wars against Pakistan. Winning war against pakistan (or their terrorists) is the be all and end all for the army of Independent India - it is the the goal, target, motivation and achievement all bundled into one - nothing else matters.

We sala bloody civilians are not standing in the border with a gun in hand and hence not as patriot as Army. How can we refuse to pay Russians (and French and US) periodic "protection money" in the form of defence capital expenditure so that our army can continue to be "successful"? Didn't our forefathers used to pay the same protection money to British India Company so that the British India Army could be stationed nearby to maintain peace?

[rohitvats]

That sir, is where I differ the most, and hence am less concerned than a lot of others on the T90-v/s-Arjun debate..In a Cold Start scenario, we will not face off 1st Armoured Div against the Paki 1st Armoured...We would attempt to have 3 tank regiments mobilised to strike for every regiment that the Pakis would be able to bring to bear in the given timeframe...And backed by equally dissimilar arty firepower...As also arguably better and more numerous C3I resources...And vastly dissimilar air support...Hence it will almost never be a tank regiment v/s tank regiment affair...In a localised, short operation, it will be mobilisation of vastly superior numbers (and comparatively superior quality in some respects) very quickly - that will be key

Sir, the above argument shows that you’ve not been keeping pace with developments in the Pakistan Army and their implications with respect to the Cold Start. I’ve already posted an overview of the same earlier. Allow me to reiterate the same in the context of present discussion.

The 2001-2002 mobilization and consequent amassing of three Indian Armored Divisions from Fazilka-Abohar to Jaisalmer (mid of 2002), exposed the soft underbelly of the Pakistan. IMO, as a response to that and also the looming Cold Start Doctrine, PA put in place resources to counter, or at least hold off any Indian Armored thrust in the area. The reason I make this statement is because certain publications had started mentioning these new formations prior to CSD being announced.

Again, in my opinion, one of the objectives of the CSD is to draw in the ARN/ARS of PA by achieving quick breakthroughs without the commitment of Indian Strike Corps. While no one, save the IA, know what form the IBG will take, my assumptions is that at the least, it will have a powerful Armored Brigade as its core. As you pointed out, the idea is to apply overwhelming firepower in double quick time to unhinge the PA defensive formations. Any such success will automatically involve the commitment of PA ARN/ARS. Another point, while India may have 3:1 superiority in armor during the initial stages of assault, actual assault will be conducted by only a single regiment. Unless, the PA armored regiment is holding too wide an area. The sheer impracticality of accommodating 3 armored regiments together will not allow this. But we digress.

Now coming to the developments in the PA in context of CSD. PA XXXI Corps (Bahawalpur – responsible for Southern Punjab and opposite to Indian X Corps) and V Corps (Karachi – responsible for Sindh and opposite Indian XII Corps) have both been reinforced with additional divisions (called Corps Reserves) – 26th and 25th Mechanized Divisions respectively. XXX Corps (Gujranwala - opposite the chicken neck area) reserves are pllaned but visibility not clear.

V Corps was supposed to have 3 independent armored brigades for quite some time, so the new mechanized division could very well be amalgamation of these. In case of XXXI Corps, it will be increase in assets (MBT) with induction of T-80UD and Al-Khalid which fecilitated the formation of this new division. These Mechanized Divisions are armored divisions in all but name. In absence of CSD and IBG (to come in future), these assets would have been used to counter/absorb/hold-off the Indian XXI and I/II Strike Corps offensive south of Fazilka-Abohar sector without having to commit the PA Reserves/Strike Corps. They would have given the PA freedom and flexibility to commit their ARS. Even with CSD, the IBG will not face off the old vanilla holding corps of PA – but those equipped with decent armor/mechanized infantry assets. So, the tank versus tank battle will sure be there and PA will not be defetead/put on back foot that easily. So while IBG is not on radar presently, the PA has assets to counter these.

This brings us to another interesting point - For India to achieve 3:1 Armor concentration in the general area, it will require that many more mechanized assets. I’ve already shown calculations in one of my previous posts which show that the current planned strength of MBT in IA (~3,500) is required to meet the present organization of Indian Army. In case IA goes for IBG in addition to present formations, the number of MBT+ other supporting assets required will go up substantially.

And the Army is not confident that the Arjun can either be inducted fast enough, or its infrastructure set up quickly enough for them to have confidence for an Arjun only solution

Unless the IA has planned to import the entire lot of T-90 from Russia, the same holds true for even the Tin-Can.

[somnath]

so you push the army's job of knowing and saying what it wants to the DRDO?? When did it become DRDOs job to push for new GSQRs?

and in the meantime allow army to just dump arjun to the t-72bu? without even breakeven on the arjun??

Any normal private organization would just dump the whole arjun unit instead of going around a newer mirage of FMBT hogwash. Who knows when the exact time of production comes, the newer mirage would be ultra future FMBT and the next ultra ultra future FMBT and so on.

Ravi ji, in my experience, its done all the time in the pvt sector..the jargon used is "proactive understanding of client needs to come up with solutions!" And if the market is a monopsony, I would do that and much much more...

Rahul, there is a valid point on the "familiarity bias"..However, why doesnt the same Army have the same bias for a host of other equipment its buying, where a marked preference for western design is shown? Heck, even the mechanised forces are asking for the Strykers, and not a BTR60 equivalent! Maybe these guys have a point that we are dismissing too easily?

Rohitvats ji, yes, IA is probably planning for many more tanks in general..But inducting the Arjun AND the T90 in equal numbers is probably a solution worse than the problem! And about induction of T90, the tap can be turned on in various ways..Avadi goofs up on QC? Fine, forget even CKDs, just get SKDs from Russia..Avadi fails to track on numbers? Fine, place one more order with Nizhny...with Arjun, the flexibility is just not there...

[chackojoseph]

Re your (and Nachiket's) point on Arjun's GSQRs - as I said before, they are valid..But are good currently only toscore brownie points against the Army..Doesnt resolve the issue..

If you still think its a brownie point and let army escape with waste of money, manpower and time? With this attitude, Army will be unaccountable for FMBT too. Its time to put down the foot and demand explanations. It will resolve a lot of issues.

[Virupaksha]

Ravi ji, in my experience, its done all the time in the pvt sector..the jargon used is "proactive understanding of client needs to come up with solutions!" And if the market is a monopsony, I would do that and much much more...

doesnt work if it entails a large r&d expense and if all you have for that expense is only one client, who can be fickle.

Rahul, there is a valid point on the "familiarity bias"..However, why doesnt the same Army have the same bias for a host of other equipment its buying, where a marked preference for western design is shown? Heck, even the mechanised forces are asking for the Strykers, and not a BTR60 equivalent! Maybe these guys have a point that we are dismissing too easily?

when t72bu was conceived to be bought as t90, we were under 98 nuclear sanctions from west.

Rohitvats ji, yes, IA is probably planning for many more tanks in general..But inducting the Arjun AND the T90 in equal numbers is probably a solution worse than the problem! And about induction of T90, the tap can be turned on in various ways..Avadi goofs up on QC? Fine, forget even CKDs, just get SKDs from Russia..Avadi fails to track on numbers? Fine, place one more order with Nizhny...with Arjun, the flexibility is just not there...

and how do we plan to cater to the problem if russia makes sure that avadi cant produce? Oh wait, it has already done that and we rewarded it for doing that

[Surya]

And there is a constant allusion to the Army looking at glossy brochures..

Sorry Somnath -

Read Col Kaul's interview and article on BR.


As for lower silhouette - its hardly going to buy you much in todays battlefields where all sort of sensors and sophisticated FCS can blow a 1 meter target at 2 kms.

See how the Merk 3 and 4 have progressed

[somnath]

If you still think its a brownie point and let army escape with waste of money, manpower and time? With this attitude, Army will be unaccountable for FMBT too. Its time to put down the foot and demand explanations. It will resolve a lot of issues.

Joseph, no Army should not be allowed to "get away" with this..Thats precisely why I think the discussions on FMBT's GSQRs should start now...among other things, it will lay bare any inconsistencies in their stance..But ramming down Arjun down the Army's throat at this stage will only create greater mess..

when t72bu was conceived to be bought as t90, we were under 98 nuclear sanctions from west.

Read, the US...the Leclerc, Leopard, Chally, Merkava were all off sanctions...In any case, the 2001 order was just 300 nos -the large orders came in much later, when we had all the choice we wanted to have in the world..

As for lower silhouette - its hardly going to buy you much in todays battlefields where all sort of sensors and sophisticated FCS can blow a 1 meter target at 2 kms.

We are not going to face the US Army..the American performance with their M1s against the Iraqis owe as much to their "system" (sensors, arty/air support et al) as to the tank itself...We are goign to face a poorer Army using the same T72 family of tanks...

Ravi ji, as for Avadi, there isnt much Russia needs to do to "sabotage" them...they do that very well without help! You have to look at their track record in the T72 "overhaul" programme.....the biggest boon to any armoured effort indigeneously would be to permanently shut down Avadi and get Tata Motors to set up a facility...

[Virupaksha]

the biggest boon to any armoured effort indigeneously would be to permanently shut down Avadi and get Tata Motors to set up a facility...

and we cant do the same for arjun but only for the wet dream FMBT because....


Oh by the way, 1000 of the t72BUs are going to be built by avadi only, whether you like it or not. and as avadi is the common factor for both t90 and arjun, so effectively it is not a factor for decision.

[Aditya_V]

I have a question here folks, we keep dissing IA and DRDO, IA VS DRDo. How much decesion making do these 2 Orgs Have.

Isnt it MOD Babus and the Polticos actually making these decesions. why are they going scot free in the process.

[somnath]

and we cant do the same for arjun but only for the wet dream FMBT because....

Oh by the way, 1000 of the t72BUs are going to be built by avadi only, whether you like it or not. and as avadi is the common factor for both t90 and arjun, so effectively it is not a factor for decision.

We cant do the same for Arjun as by the time any other player is selected, he sets up the plant, trouble shoot the line etc - we would have spent another 2-3 years at least before production can start...Even greenfield auto assembly lines take 2-3 years to be set up and stabilised...But the FMBT wont have these "legacy" challenges..

Avadi is making the T90s, in its usual constipatory runs...But the balance can/is being imported, or Avadi is being given SKD and not CKD kits to hurry up the whole process..With T90, there is an alternative...

[Surya]

We are not going to face the US Army..the American performance with their M1s against the Iraqis owe as much to their "system" (sensors, arty/air support et al) as to the tank itself...We are goign to face a poorer Army using the same T72 family of tanks...

The Army will not admit that - you do because essentially that means the T 90 is not as good

because once that opens a whole new set of questions

[nachiket]

We are not going to face the US Army..the American performance with their M1s against the Iraqis owe as much to their "system" (sensors, arty/air support et al) as to the tank itself...We are goign to face a poorer Army using the same T72 family of tanks...

As Rohitvats has pointed out before, the Al-Khalid is no pushover. In fact it is actually a tad better than the T-90. It has all the sensors and systems that the T-90 does including Thermal sights and a contemporary FCS. It has a much better pwr/weight ratio, a similar gun and it also has a BMS if I'm not mistaken. Our T-90s don't even have the Shtora Active defense system to give them an advantage.
We can underestimate the pakis at our own doom.

[somnath]

The Army will not admit that - you do because essentially that means the T 90 is not as good

because once that opens a whole new set of questions

Surya, I am pretty sure you are correct..In a one-on-one duel, an M1 (or even maybe an Arjun) will trump a T90/72 anyday...the problem is however, there is never a one-on-one duel...In Iraq (either versions), how many divisional armour attacks did the Americans conduct against the Iraqis without air support, arty support or their awesome situaitonal awareness? So when you see those charred T72s, thanks not just the M1, but an awesome system that ID-ed it first, tracked it day-and-night and enabled the tank gunner (or the bomber/apache pilot) take the first shot at a distance that outranged the T72's gun...

In an Indo-Pak scenario, if things go according to plan (Cold Start), we will have our tanks ready to take on the objective before Pakis can mobilise them, we will have thrice the number of tanks supported by 2-3 times the amount of arty firepower and much higher level of air support..Not to talk of our Searchers, Cartosats, Samyuktas for much better situational awareness...

[rohitvats]

Rohitvats ji, yes, IA is probably planning for many more tanks in general..But inducting the Arjun AND the T90 in equal numbers is probably a solution worse than the problem! And about induction of T90, the tap can be turned on in various ways..Avadi goofs up on QC? Fine, forget even CKDs, just get SKDs from Russia..Avadi fails to track on numbers? Fine, place one more order with Nizhny...with Arjun, the flexibility is just not there...

Sorry, the argument does not fly. After the IA placed the initial order for 310 T-90, it waited for for 7 years before the next order for Russian built T-90 was placed (347). The reason sited was lack of domestic production without clarifying that the Russians had been playing the hardball. So, unless the Russians play real hardball for another couple of years, I don't see further import orders. The QC issue does not hold good, unless the tanks are literall falling apart. for good or for bad, QC has never been the reason for imports and will never be...If I take your argument, it means that due to the problems with domestic production (QC part), one should not develop and produce anything locally.....you're throwing the baby out of the water here...

As for the Arjun production, the production has satibilized after initial hiccpus.....so, let us not get into the speculation mode.....

[rohitvats]

In an Indo-Pak scenario, if things go according to plan (Cold Start), we will have our tanks ready to take on the objective before Pakis can mobilise them, we will have thrice the number of tanks supported by 2-3 times the amount of arty firepower and much higher level of air support..Not to talk of our Searchers, Cartosats, Samyuktas for much better situational awareness...

The CSD is meant to address our mobilization issue and negate the advantage PA has wrt it...it does not aim (cannot aim) to mobilize before the PA....that again is physical impposibility, unless the IA is sitting on the border 24*7 (which it does not).....and as for the tank ratio, I've already given you the numbers and explanations...please don't bring that argument here...there is nothing in horizon (I'm talking about real faaar horizon here) which alludes to IA building very heavy armor force to acheive 3:1 ratio...Let us first acheive 2:1 ratio over PA in tanks...