Armoured Vehicles Discussion Thread

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Singha
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Re: Armoured Vehicles Discussion Thread

Post by Singha »

let us be cautiously optimistic. many false dawns before. news has to come from DefMin or COAS to be considered credible.
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Re: Armoured Vehicles Discussion Thread

Post by aditp »

Singha wrote:let us be cautiously optimistic. many false dawns before. news has to come from DefMin or COAS to be considered credible.
I thought the PTI is a sarkari mouthpiece
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Re: Armoured Vehicles Discussion Thread

Post by KrishG »

aditp wrote:I thought the PTI is a sarkari mouthpiece
But not the mouthpiece of the Army. :wink:
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Re: Armoured Vehicles Discussion Thread

Post by anirban_aim »

Singha wrote:let us be cautiously optimistic. many false dawns before. news has to come from DefMin or COAS to be considered credible.
Rightly, said

<Speculative Cap On> 8)

But seen in the light of what fellow BRFites had to say about the news from DefEXPO and this does seem credible. May be they are trying to subtly bring down their opposition without giving away anything.

<Speculative Cao Off>
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Re: Armoured Vehicles Discussion Thread

Post by Rahul M »

KrishG wrote:
aditp wrote:I thought the PTI is a sarkari mouthpiece
But not the mouthpiece of the Army. :wink:
PTI is a news agency run jointly by desi newspapers as a cooperative. it's the grandmother of all DDM and >50% of all DDM errors originate from PTI.

the sarkari mouthpiece is PIB or press information bureau.
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Re: Armoured Vehicles Discussion Thread

Post by nachiket »

Arjun and Bhishma to coexist

Excerpts..
New Delhi, February 27
.. At present, a “deployment” trials are being conducted in the deserts of Rajasthan, where 14 of the home-grown Arjun tanks face the Russian origin T-90 - christened Bhishma - by the Indian Army.

.. Dr VK Saraswat, says: “We are expecting a repeat order of the Arjun tanks in the near future”....

.. Saraswat clarified the comparative evaluation referred to in media reports was nothing but a trial of the tank’s role. “It is a process to identify the role the tank will play and will not be comparative between the two tanks,” he added.

..Commanders of the Indian Army, who in the past have been critical of the Arjun, have slowly come around and now say that the two tanks are of different classes and cannot be compared with each other...
Ahem...So they finally figured out that the T-90 doesn't stand a chance against the Arjun and changed the "Comparitive Trials" to "Deployment Trials". :P
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Re: Armoured Vehicles Discussion Thread

Post by Singha »

I have a relative in the PTI. they accompany leaders of state on all tours - foreign or domestic and get invited to every event by default. they have the run of the Govt's house. they also post correspondents abroad - as in TSP only has one PTI and one Hindu staffer respectively.

quasi-govt would be a good word for them, as the PSU banks are also not 100% central govt employees but quasi-govt.
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Re: Armoured Vehicles Discussion Thread

Post by Rahul M »

they are India's largest news agency run jointly by all the newspapers in India. that would explain ^^^. sure they have access to all levels of GOI but for all that they are not as reliable as a govt mouthpiece(PIB).
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Re: Armoured Vehicles Discussion Thread

Post by RayC »

Press Trust of India (Devanagari: प्रेस ट्रस्ट ऑफ़् इंडिया) (often abbreviated as PTI) is the largest news agency in India.[1] It is headquartered in Delhi and is a nonprofit cooperative among more than 450 Indian newspapers and has a staff of about 2,000 writers spread across 150 offices nationwide.[2] It took over the Indian operations of the Associated Press and Reuters soon after India's independence on August 15, 1947. It provides news coverage and information of the region in both English and Hindi......

Press Trust of India is the only news agency in South Asia which operates its own communication satellite, an INSAT, to broadcast news and information.....

Time Event
1910 Birth of Associated Press of India, PTI's forerunner floated by K C Roy
1919 Reuters takes over operations of API but still uses API credit line
1945 API registered as a private limited Indian company wholly owned by Reuters
1947, August 27 Press Trust of India incorporated in Madras
1949, February 1 PTI begins news services, taking over operations from API but still maintains links with Reuters.
1953 PTI becomes a free agent, independent of Reuters
1976 PTI Economic Service is launched
1976, February PTI, UNI, Samachar Bharati and Hindustan Samachar merge under pressure during emergency to become 'Samachar'
1978, April PTI and the other three news agencies go back to their original units to restrart independent news operations
1980, July PTI Feature Service launched
1981, October PTI Science Service launched
1982, November PTI launches Scan, on-screen news display service
1984 PTI service launched for subscribers in USA
1985 Computerisation of news operations starts PTI service launched for subscribers in UK
1986, February PTI-TV launched
1986, April PTI-Bhasha launched
1986, August Experimental broadcast of news and pix via Insat-IB begins, Computer system made fully operational
1987, August Stockscan I launched
1987, October PTI photo service launched
1992, August PTI Mag launched
1993, August PTI Graphics service launched
1995, March PTI launches StockScan II
1996, February PTI invests for the first time in a foreign registered Company, Asia Pulse, which provides an on-line data bank on economic opportunities in Asian countries
1997, December PTI introduces photo-dial up facility
1999, March PTI celebrates Golden Jubilee. PTI goes on internet
2003, September PTI launches internet delivery of its news and photo services.

From Wiki
Rahul M
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Re: Armoured Vehicles Discussion Thread

Post by Rahul M »

marten saab, there may well be competent subject experts in PTI but if you check, statistically a very high % our DDM errors regarding mil matters do originate from them. PTI reports on defence matters are very frequently error-ridden. if they are consistently performing poorly on a subject it may be be unfair to the handful of competent people in the organisation(who on the whole don't seem to have any effect) but it is an apt appraisal of the organisation. after all, the buck does stop with the editors right ?

just a clarification, DDM refers to military reporting only, not anything else. PTI may be good there, I don't know.
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Re: Armoured Vehicles Discussion Thread

Post by RayC »

Even others are!

No great deal!
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Re: Armoured Vehicles Discussion Thread

Post by Willy »

Looks like the Arjun is whipping the pants of the T-90 in the trials. That's why the trails have now become " non comperative" since the two tanks are from "different classes " :D:D:D:D:D:D:D
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Re: Armoured Vehicles Discussion Thread

Post by HarishV »

The Arjun has better and latest systems on board. It has better transmission system than the T-90, accurate firepower while on the move. The Arjun has better thermal imaging capability, enabling it night vision.
Good for the DRDO, if this is true. But sounds like a good PR exercise by our DDM.
Dr VK Saraswat, says: “We are expecting a repeat order of the Arjun tanks in the near future”.
Well, last we heard the IA wanted this capped at 124 - no more!
The Army plans to have 1,650 T-90s in the next few years
Now this article and the concomitant reaction is quite amusing. With the IA relying on the T-90's for most of its armored regiments, if it is any worse than the Arjuns then it just seems like the Army has shot itself in the foot. Is it this obvious? Lets give them a little more credit than this.
On the other hand if the DRDO has a winning product. If the trial really means the Arjun is the winner we need to be questioning the decision.

If by pitting the T-90 against the Arjun gives us a winner, then dare I say we have a non-winner - the Armored Regiments of the IA.
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Re: Armoured Vehicles Discussion Thread

Post by Willy »

Whatever sketchy reports that have been coming out even in the past indicate that the tank crews prefer the Arjun to the T-90.
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Re: Armoured Vehicles Discussion Thread

Post by Yagnasri »

Let us face it T 0 i snot made for comfort. Arjun is said to be and the reports also suggest that. Price is now almost the same (the cheating done by remoing all the parts needed like infra gare etc has now come out) We do not even hear what happend in the trails. Had it been T90 we are sure to have heard a lot about bad the Arjun is. Since silence is there we can presure safely that Arjun is for better. So this new idea that both are going to co exist etc are comming. SOm 124 more or ordered now.

My worry is unless some 500 are not ordered this product is not going to be viable. The Engine and other systems will not be viable unless there is a certainity in orders. Let us now make up our mind to proceed with Arjun with some 500 orders immediately with an option for more. In the meanwhile try and develop Auto loader etc in India.
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Re: Armoured Vehicles Discussion Thread

Post by Singha »

shukla sir should unleash his spy droids and MAVs to find out whats really happening in the trials 8)
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Re: Armoured Vehicles Discussion Thread

Post by Samay »

^so they are opening their cards one-by-one, . If this happens,the tank armoury will be a very formidable force,considering they order at least 500 arjuns as well .
1.)how much time will it take to convert 1900 T72 into tank-ex , ?, 5 yrs should be good enough ,.
2)where this assembly will take place, Avadi?
but avadi facility has taken up T90 production, so when will t72 upgrades take place, after the end of serial production of T90?
From the Indian army section
Comments: Known as Ajeya, around 1950 T-72M1 tanks form the modern backbone of the Indian Army's MBT fleet. Licensed production of the T-72M1 at Heavy Vehicles Factory (HVF), Avadi is believed to have ended in 1998 and during a 15-year period 1100+ tanks were produced. According to the Comptroller & Auditor General of India, the last T-72M1 production run at HVF, stood at 92 tanks during 1997-98. HVF has a capacity to produce 400 tanks a year, but never more than 200 were produced annually. The T-90S MBT has now completely replaced the T-72M1 on the production line at HVF. An indigenously developed aiming trainer for the tank has been developed at the Simulator Development Division (SDD), Secunderabad. The state-of-the-art simulator is designed to impart cost-effective, basic aiming training to gunners and commanders of T-72M1 crews. Some 250 Simfire simulations systems were recently acquired for use with the tank.
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Re: Armoured Vehicles Discussion Thread

Post by tejas »

The article stating Bhishma and Arjun will co-exist is staggering in what it doesn't say not what is says.
If you read the article it essentially says the Arjun is superior to the T-90 in every important parameter. Yet it does not ask the one question that needs to be asked: why have we purchased a single T-90?

Can anyone on this forum give me one legitimate reason why the T-90 was purchased without going thru the trials that Arjun has? The T-90 has less protection, inferior accuracy, no netcentricity, cannot function in the heat of the Thar desert and actually costs more than the Arjun if you actually include the costs of equipment needed to fight effectively.

The army spokesmen now state that the two tanks are in different classes and can't be compared. So the obvious thing to do would be to buy 2000 inferior, more expensive FOREIGN tank and only 248 Arjuns. How deep and extensive corruption must be entrenched in defense purchases in India. It boggles the mind.
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Re: Armoured Vehicles Discussion Thread

Post by d_berwal »

tejas wrote:The article stating Bhishma and Arjun will co-exist is staggering in what it doesn't say not what is says.
If you read the article it essentially says the Arjun is superior to the T-90 in every important parameter. Yet it does not ask the one question that needs to be asked: why have we purchased a single T-90?
T-90 was purchased to counter T-80 purchased by PA... at that time ARJUN was not ready.
Can anyone on this forum give me one legitimate reason why the T-90 was purchased without going thru the trials that Arjun has? The T-90 has less protection, inferior accuracy, no netcentricity, cannot function in the heat of the Thar desert and actually costs more than the Arjun if you actually include the costs of equipment needed to fight effectively.
both T-90 has gone through similar trials By IA.

Procedure for Induction of any MBT in IA is same.

TD series ARJUN went through the TEST necessary for any TD series equipment.

Most of the T-90 are in Thar desert area... so make your opinion.
The army spokesmen now state that the two tanks are in different classes and can't be compared. So the obvious thing to do would be to buy 2000 inferior, more expensive FOREIGN tank and only 248 Arjuns. How deep and extensive corruption must be entrenched in defense purchases in India. It boggles the mind.
army never said that there will ever be comparative trials its all DDM...

Induction and Battle worthiness excersise are done for any Regt going under conversion

no one compares equipment as we all have been suggesting it in BFR...
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Re: Armoured Vehicles Discussion Thread

Post by Surya »

so if T 90 works fine in Thar - why the subsequent order for cooling equipment??

How did it pass the desert trials without cooling equipment??

and if it did - then why order the cooling equipment??



Now you will say it did - but the evidence is contradictory!!!


We will come back to other bits andpieces later :mrgreen:
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Re: Armoured Vehicles Discussion Thread

Post by d_berwal »

Surya wrote:so if T 90 works fine in Thar - why the subsequent order for cooling equipment??

How did it pass the desert trials without cooling equipment??

and if it did - then why order the cooling equipment??



Now you will say it did - but the evidence is contradictory!!!


We will come back to other bits andpieces later :mrgreen:
i know where ur emotions are.... i respect that.... and i dont want to start another mindless discussion....

- even ARJUN has a AC now which it did not have 3 yrs bk (all front-line MBT) in IA will have AC for better troop comfort and need for upkeep of sensitive equipment which is getting integrated in them (BMS, TI, FCS etc)

we can goo on and on ...
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Re: Armoured Vehicles Discussion Thread

Post by Rahul M »

PS: Rahul saar, why saab? I've not earned the epithet dude yet - will work towards it though. :)
working towards an irrefutable upper hand in these things are we ? :mrgreen:
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Re: Armoured Vehicles Discussion Thread

Post by Surya »

that was a dodge :)

but we will let it go
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Re: Armoured Vehicles Discussion Thread

Post by Vivek K »

d_berwal - U Sir are wrong.

1. http://www.business-standard.com/india/news/ajai-shukladesert-duel-that-wasn%60t/297546/Ajai Shukla: The desert duel that wasn`t
The Mahajan Field Firing Ranges (MFFR), near Suratgarh, in Rajasthan, a hive of army activity between September and March, transforms into desolation during the summer months. During that interregnum, the emptiness, the blazing 50-degree-plus heat, the absence of water, and the unrelenting sandstorms make MFFR an ideal testing ground for equipment that the army proposes to buy.

Here, over the last 33 years, the Defence R&D Organisation (DRDO) has carried out scores of often-unsuccessful trials on India’s Arjun tank. It is here, during this bygone summer, that the MFFR was to host the mother of all duels: full-scale comparative trials, in which the Arjun tank was to be compared with the army’s workhorses, the Russian T-72 and the new-generation T-90 tanks. If the Arjun performed satisfactorily (nothing better was even imagined) the army would buy 124 tanks, a minuscule purchase considering that its fleet has 3,500 tanks. This token order, worth Rs 2,250 crore, is believed to constitute a face-saving closure to the three-decade-old DRDO project that had spent Rs 300 crore on developing the Arjun.

But this long-playing tale has taken a rousing twist comparable with the most unlikely of underdog success stories. Recent technological breakthroughs in the Arjun project appear to have transformed what was an underperforming liability into something close to a world class 60-tonne Main Battle Tank (MBT) that could literally kick sand in the face of the Russian favourites. Army sources reveal that there was apprehension that the DRDO-built Arjun could outperform the Russian-origin tanks in all three determinants of tank ability: mobility, firepower, and protection. Now, the Ministry of Defence (MoD), at the request of the army, has cancelled the comparative trials.
2.Arjun MBT - Dead or Alive
Indian Army lost its battle and Arjun Tank will ride into the Indian Army regiments defeating its most hostile evaluators. This is a strange case in which Indian Army the creator of Arjun Tank turned into Frankenstein. Mary Wollstonecraft Shelley take note.
Indian Army developed cold feet (again) on the T-90 versus Arjun Tank comparative trials after witnessing the accelerated usage cum reliability trial (AUCRT) of Main Battle Tank Arjun that began in December 2007. Then we saw parliamentary reports by Indian Army on the failure of Arjun Tanks in AUCRT, that was thrashed in media as well as in parliament.
3.
Arjun Tanks Undergo Baptism In Desert Wargames
Notwithstanding the indigenous tanks taking part for the first time in the exercises in which live ammunition was used, Singh said Arjun would still have to go through comparative trials with Russian tanks later this year
Last edited by Vivek K on 01 Mar 2010 00:17, edited 3 times in total.
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Re: Armoured Vehicles Discussion Thread

Post by Craig Alpert »

Surya wrote:so if T 90 works fine in Thar - why the subsequent order for cooling equipment??

How did it pass the desert trials without cooling equipment??

and if it did - then why order the cooling equipment??



Now you will say it did - but the evidence is contradictory!!!


We will come back to other bits andpieces later :mrgreen:
Cooling equipment is not merely for the equpiment, they are also used for Crew Comfort. I have been inside a tank, and trust me it ain't a luxury seating that you get in a bimmer! The temperature was around 94 degree in January where the testing facility was. It WASN'T a warzone, NOR was it REPLICATING a war zone. This was in January in a TEST Facility, so imagine this in IRAQ, AFGHANISTAN, OR EVEN RAJASTHAN!! and that too during Summer time, where the Temps are around 120 degrees F!!!!
There are computers, that run constantly that need cooling to operate the equipment inside, also crew comfort requires A/c for them to not have heat exhaustion and too much heat also affects the IR/Thermal capability for both Offensive and Defensive operations!
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Re: Armoured Vehicles Discussion Thread

Post by tejas »

The pseudo trials being held were purposely delayed to avoid summer heat as the army knew the T-90 would fail miserably. While the Arjun has been been heat "proofed" the T-90 manufacturer basically told the IA there's nothing we can do so go buy an airconditioner--- something the IA refused to do for Arjun.

The statement from army brass that the IA needed a futuristic tank ( whatever the hell that means) so they didn't want Arjuns is laughable. We need a futuristic tank not Arjun so lets buy a foreign tank thats inferior to Arjun. :x
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Re: Armoured Vehicles Discussion Thread

Post by d_berwal »

Vivek K wrote:d_berwal - U Sir are wrong.

1. http://www.business-standard.com/india/news/ajai-shukladesert-duel-that-wasn%60t/297546/Ajai Shukla: The desert duel that wasn`t
The Mahajan Field Firing Ranges (MFFR), near Suratgarh, in Rajasthan, a hive of army activity between September and March, transforms into desolation during the summer months. During that interregnum, the emptiness, the blazing 50-degree-plus heat, the absence of water, and the unrelenting sandstorms make MFFR an ideal testing ground for equipment that the army proposes to buy.

Here, over the last 33 years, the Defence R&D Organisation (DRDO) has carried out scores of often-unsuccessful trials on India’s Arjun tank. It is here, during this bygone summer, that the MFFR was to host the mother of all duels: full-scale comparative trials, in which the Arjun tank was to be compared with the army’s workhorses, the Russian T-72 and the new-generation T-90 tanks. If the Arjun performed satisfactorily (nothing better was even imagined) the army would buy 124 tanks, a minuscule purchase considering that its fleet has 3,500 tanks. This token order, worth Rs 2,250 crore, is believed to constitute a face-saving closure to the three-decade-old DRDO project that had spent Rs 300 crore on developing the Arjun.

But this long-playing tale has taken a rousing twist comparable with the most unlikely of underdog success stories. Recent technological breakthroughs in the Arjun project appear to have transformed what was an underperforming liability into something close to a world class 60-tonne Main Battle Tank (MBT) that could literally kick sand in the face of the Russian favourites. Army sources reveal that there was apprehension that the DRDO-built Arjun could outperform the Russian-origin tanks in all three determinants of tank ability: mobility, firepower, and protection. Now, the Ministry of Defence (MoD), at the request of the army, has cancelled the comparative trials.
if u believe him then i lie....

ever been part of induction of new MBT in any IA regt... PLS talk to some one real who has gone through these induction... he would tell you nothing special was in ARJUN induction ,,,, same... I have seen 3 conversions in my life ... (thats also a lie :twisted: )
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Re: Armoured Vehicles Discussion Thread

Post by Vivek K »

d_berwal - the Arjun induction process smacks of the worst of Indian character. The unwillingness of the Army procurement to accept that it may have been wrong, in wastefully inducting a sub-standard T-90 that can not perform in the desert heat or cannot provide the night fighting capability is treason.
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Re: Armoured Vehicles Discussion Thread

Post by Surya »

craig

I know all that

that was not how the purchase came for the T 90.

Its because the damn electronics collapsed inthe heat
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Re: Armoured Vehicles Discussion Thread

Post by d_berwal »

Vivek K wrote:d_berwal - the Arjun induction process smacks of the worst of Indian character. The unwillingness of the Army procurement to accept that it may have been wrong, in wastefully inducting a sub-standard T-90 that can not perform in the desert heat or cannot provide the night fighting capability is treason.
Vivek... if u would have ever seen T-90 capabilities and ARJUN in person... you would not hate T-90...

obviously the ARJUN saga is sad.. but self created by DRDO.. and IA procurement.....
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Re: Armoured Vehicles Discussion Thread

Post by Surya »

Vivek... if u would have ever seen T-90 capabilities and ARJUN in person... you would not hate T-90...

so it comes down - trusting you.

sorry does nto work like that
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Re: Armoured Vehicles Discussion Thread

Post by d_berwal »

Surya wrote:
Vivek... if u would have ever seen T-90 capabilities and ARJUN in person... you would not hate T-90...

so it comes down - trusting you.

sorry does nto work like that
i didnt say trust me.... I am saying trust what u know, dont believe in sooo emotionally where u dont know the facts.
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Re: Armoured Vehicles Discussion Thread

Post by Surya »

I may have not seen the T 90 - but don;t assume I have not spoken to enough tank people about whats happening
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Re: Armoured Vehicles Discussion Thread

Post by d_berwal »

Surya wrote:I may have not seen the T 90 - but don;t assume I have not spoken to enough tank people about whats happening
how many have u spoken to ? whos regt has T-90?
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Re: Armoured Vehicles Discussion Thread

Post by Surya »

spoken to 2 T 90 guys. I will leave the other ex tankers who were involved with Arjun trials etc. out

The T 90 guys mentioned what you mentioned (in terms of the positive) but they also made some other comments

Cannot quote for obvious reasons.


obviously a small sample but enough to understand the underlying contentions
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Re: Armoured Vehicles Discussion Thread

Post by d_berwal »

Surya wrote:spoken to 2 T 90 guys. I will leave the other ex tankers who were involved with Arjun trials etc. out

The T 90 guys mentioned what you mentioned (in terms of the positive) but they also made some other comments

Cannot quote for obvious reasons.


obviously a small sample but enough to understand the underlying contentions
only 2... any u feel sooo strongly about it............ mannn.... ur soo reasonable..... 2 is like less that 10% for even if we take a single Regt.
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Re: Armoured Vehicles Discussion Thread

Post by Tanaji »

d_berwal wrote: only 2... any u feel sooo strongly about it............ mannn.... ur soo reasonable..... 2 is like less that 10% for even if we take a single Regt.
I take it you have spoken to at least 1 regiment?
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Re: Armoured Vehicles Discussion Thread

Post by d_berwal »

Tanaji wrote:
d_berwal wrote: only 2... any u feel sooo strongly about it............ mannn.... ur soo reasonable..... 2 is like less that 10% for even if we take a single Regt.
I take it you have spoken to at least 1 regiment?

almost all the REGT
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Re: Armoured Vehicles Discussion Thread

Post by Surya »

depends on how you take the numbers



For example I could speak to 1 guy of these tanks in combat

and he could be the only guy in the armoured corp who has seen combat in T series since 71 :)


Now I can ask you how many guys have you spoken to who have been in combat with tanks with the Arjun philosophy like M1s and Merkavas against the tin can series

Who is the frog in the well here? :mrgreen:
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